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View Full Version : 3rd Ed [3.5] Obtain Familiar - "For the purpose of determining familiar abilities..."



Luckmann
2018-06-13, 06:20 AM
Today I came across an odd one. I'm playing in a game (first 3.5 game I've ever played regularly in, actually, so I keep coming up with stuff and tripping over things I've never thought about before, especially since me and the veteran GM are basically the only ones that aren't completely new to not just D&D, but roleplaying in general) and very recently my GF joined and I helped make her character and so on and so forth, but not thinking before I act lead to me simply assuming (don't ask me why, it's indefensible, I have no idea what I was thinking :smallsigh:) that the Obtain Familiar feat depended entirely on character level.

And at a whim today, while trying to theorycraft a bit to help another player that is a rogue but really wants a familiar, I realized that.. hold on, isn't it weird that with a single-level dip into any arcane casting class, this so far full-level rogue (currently level 8 or 9) can get a full Familiar at the cost of a feat? Even though that's not necessarily a great deal (after all, many of the benefits are essentially lost - the character will never be a true caster anyway), it meant to me that Obtain Familiar as a feat is wildly more powerful than a single-level dip into, say, Wizard; because a Wizard with only 1 level will only really only ever have a 1st-level Familiar.

So I checked the feat. And I re-read it. And I re-re-read it. And then I realized that it still doesn't make all that much sense to me.

Specifically, this section, which says: "For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack."

But the thing is, as far as I can discern, nothing in the basic descriptions of Familiars depend on arcane caster class level. :smallconfused: I checked through both the Official SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) and the D&DWiki SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Familiars). The closest thing is the section which says: "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level." But for the purpose of Obtain Familiar, this obviously does not apply, since Obtain Familiar in itself is not a different class that entitles you to a familiar - in fact, the character in question technically has no levels in any class that is entitled to a familiar.

I believe that the feat is merely badly worded, and RAW, the familiar would technically never progress since there are no "classes that are entitled to familiars", and that the RAI was supposed to be that all arcane caster class levels stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities, regardless of whether those classes are entitled to a familiar or not. Making this entirely a DM fiat issue to fix, meaning that the rogue in question could just ask the DM if he can count his total character level instead. Would screw a bit with my girlfriend's character, but just a tiny bit (all her levels save 1 is an arcane caster anyway).

But more importantly, am I missing something?

Anymage
2018-06-13, 06:37 AM
You need arcane caster level third, and a reasonable RAI interpretation is that they meant that you use the total of all your arcane casting classes instead of just your wizard and/or sorcerer levels. I think that's what they meant to say.

Taking the rules as just suggestions towards letting the player have what they want, Obtain Familiar running off of just character level wouldn't be OP. The secondary feats granted by the familiar are nice, but Alertness and an effective Skill Focus feat aren't going to break anything. On top of that, you get a pet. Having a pet who you want to keep safe is basically a roleplaying flavor thing, not something to worry about.

ShurikVch
2018-06-13, 06:52 AM
Specifically, this section, which says: "For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack."

But the thing is, as far as I can discern, nothing in the basic descriptions of Familiars depend on arcane caster class level. :smallconfused: I checked through both the Official SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars) and the D&DWiki SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Familiars).:smallconfused:
Isn't it obvious?
The "arcane caster class level", for the purpose of Obtain Familiar feat, is the numbers in the "Master Class Level" column.
(I, personally, always interpreted it as "your effective Familiar level = your CL")

Bronk
2018-06-13, 07:05 AM
But more importantly, am I missing something?

I agree, you're just missing that the rogue doesn't meet the prerequisites in the first place. I'm glad your girlfriend's character won't be affected much.

I would say that the classes that have the 'summon familiar' class ability are the ones that are entitled to having a familiar, that's definitely the sorcerer and wizard, but also other base classes like the Hexblade. However, most prestige classes don't progress familiar abilities, so taking the 'obtain familiar' feat is the way to go to get around that (not just for bards, for example). In fact, I hear a lot of talk about wizards trading their familiars away with a level 1 ACF (usually abrupt jaunt), then getting the better 'obtain familiar' version later.

What about this... There's a familiar that chooses it's owner in Dragon 299 called Golden the Clockwork Cat. Perhaps your DM would allow the Rogue to treat Golden like a magic item, and use Use Magic Device to trick it into thinking the character has the 'summon familiar' class ability?

There are also the onyx figurines... the riding dog version can speak common and has int 8!

Or, they could take the 'Wild Cohort' feat (when they qualify) and choose a tressym: They qualify to be both a familiar and a first level animal companion, and they're highly mobile flying cats that also have int 10!

Luckmann
2018-06-13, 07:51 AM
:smallconfused:
Isn't it obvious?
The "arcane caster class level", for the purpose of Obtain Familiar feat, is the numbers in the "Master Class Level" column.
(I, personally, always interpreted it as "your effective Familiar level = your CL")No, it's not obvious at all. If it was, I wouldn't have asked, after all.

That being said, then, if it is so obvious, where is this clarified? Like I said in the OP, I believe what you suggest to be the RAI - but as far as I can see, it's not RAW, and very far from obvious.

I too always assumed Character Level too, when it comes to Obtain Familiar, previously. It wasn't until I actually say down and considered what it actually said that I realized that they probably messed up when writing the feat.


I agree, you're just missing that the rogue doesn't meet the prerequisites in the first place. I'm glad your girlfriend's character won't be affected much.Oh, no, sorry, I didn't actually miss that, but I didn't mention it in the OP, so the confusion is understandable. I know Rogue doesn't qualify, but theoretically, the rogue in question would take a few levels in an arcane spellcaster class of some sort, or the DM would waive the requirement of having 3rd-level spellcasting.

In hindsight, I should probably have mentioned that, but it ultimately isn't relevant.


I would say that the classes that have the 'summon familiar' class ability are the ones that are entitled to having a familiar, that's definitely the sorcerer and wizard, but also other base classes like the Hexblade. However, most prestige classes don't progress familiar abilities, so taking the 'obtain familiar' feat is the way to go to get around that (not just for bards, for example). In fact, I hear a lot of talk about wizards trading their familiars away with a level 1 ACF (usually abrupt jaunt), then getting the better 'obtain familiar' version later.Yeah, it's about the only real use I can actually imagine with Rules as Written, but even if we assume that the feat was written with the intent of only being used by classes that would normally qualify for familiars anyway (which I really can't believe) it still leaves the reference to caster level in the feat hanging in the air, because it specifically mentions caster levels, but caster levels are actually never relevant when it comes to familiars (as far as I can ascertain).


What about this... There's a familiar that chooses it's owner in Dragon 299 called Golden the Clockwork Cat. Perhaps your DM would allow the Rogue to treat Golden like a magic item, and use Use Magic Device to trick it into thinking the character has the 'summon familiar' class ability?

There are also the onyx figurines... the riding dog version can speak common and has int 8!

Or, they could take the 'Wild Cohort' feat (when they qualify) and choose a tressym: They qualify to be both a familiar and a first level animal companion, and they're highly mobile flying cats that also have int 10!I love the suggestions, thanks, and I'm actually going to check them out for other characters (because I love the party being a zoo, apparently) but in this particular case, it's all about the cat. Actually, the idea of it being a familiar came much later - the original idea was basically "I want to have a cat!" :smallbiggrin:

schreier
2018-06-13, 01:45 PM
I had a familiar question here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559651-Levels-for-quot-Obtain-Familiar-quot&p=23097312#post23097312

I think the general answer we reached was -- if a class advances spellcasting at all, then each level of that class (regardless if that individual level actually progressed spellcasting) increases the familiar's level.

So Wizard 5 / Mindbender 2 would be level 7 for familiar ... but only 6 as a caster (since level 1 of mindbender does not advance spellcasting) ... simple example, and I doubt anyone ever takes mindbender 2 - but used it for the simplicity of the example.

Vertharrad
2018-06-13, 11:48 PM
Obtain Familiar
( Complete Arcane, p. 81)

[General]

You gain a familiar.
Prerequisite

Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd,
Benefit

You can obtain a familiar in the same manner as a sorcerer or wizard (see the sorcerer class description and the accompanying sidebar, page 52 of the Player's Handbook). As with a sorcerer or wizard, obtaining a familiar takes 24 hours and uses up magic materials worth 100 gp. For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack.



Master class level on the familiar chart references the class level of those classes that grant familiars that asfaik are all arcane casting classes. So the feat supercedes the rule that the familiar is empowered by only the class level of the class it came from and instead is empowered by all levels of class(es) that allow you to cast arcane spells. So rogue levels don't count unless they're allowing you to cast arcane spells...have fun.