Taking levels beyond 20th - Potential Pitfalls?

[UrielAwakened]

Friends and I run a rotating-chair 5e game that's already 12th level and likely to reach 20th inside of a year. We're trying to figure out how to do 5th edition epic tier without having to add anything new to the game if possible (short of custom items and monsters as each dm deems appropriate). Meaning no custom epic tier classes, or epic destinies, or additional spell slots, etc... As few modifications to the system as possible.

We're debating if the system would hold up if you could start taking levels in another class after 20th level. Say, you started as a Wizard 18/Warlock 2, finished your last two levels of Wizard, then took 18 levels of Warlock. Or started taking Fighter levels if you wanted. Or Cleric. Whatever. You would end up a Wizard 20/Warlock 20, effectively a 40th level character.

Presuming your proficiency bonus scales every 4th level, and you upped the cap on ASIs periodically so players didn't run out of feats, do you think the system would hold up? I'd imagine most encounters would be against similar-CR monsters, we don't tend to use a bunch of monsters with a lower-CR than the party, so bounded accuracy isn't as big a deal. Monsters would largely be custom to stay relevant as well.

Are there any painfully-broken builds that might arise? Any other considerations we should know about? Do we need to inject a way for damage to keep scaling consistently?

And before anyone suggests Boons, they're really boring. No thank you.

[nickl_2000]

Here are the potential issues I see

1) How do spells slots keep scaling? There is no scaling for casters after level 20
2) How do cantrips scale?
3) How would Simulacrum work for spells?


Potential Build that may be silly powerful
1) Moon Druid 20/ Monk 20. The AC would be great in Wild shape form and I'm not sure if you would ever be able to kill them off (with infinite HP, good AC, and incredible saves).
2) Moon Druid 20/ Path of the Zealot Barb could be odd with rage beyond death



Still I feel like you could adjust the monsters to take care of that,

[darknite]

Given that I was just in a game where a party of four 18th level PCs disposed of a Balor riding an adult red dragon, a room of high level casters and paladins and then an un-nerfed CR 30 god - all without taking a rest, I'm not sure what remains to be gained by going beyond 20th level.

My initial thought is that PCs that venture past 20th level become demi-gods of some sort.

[DanyBallon]

I'd keep it simple. A character can't take level in any class, after reaching 20 character level. After that point, set a fix number of XP and every time the character reach that threshold, he gets CON mod HP + a special boon of his choice from the DMG and/or from those created by the DM.

[UrielAwakened]

Here are the potential issues I see

1) How do spells slots keep scaling? There is no scaling for casters after level 20
2) How do cantrips scale?
3) How would Simulacrum work for spells?


Potential Build that may be silly powerful
1) Moon Druid 20 and Monk 20. The AC would be great in Wild shape form and I'm not sure if you would ever be able to kill them off (with infinite HP, good AC, and incredible saves).



Still I feel like you could adjust the monsters to take care of that,

1) I imagine you would start acquiring spells over again. For instance, once you hit 20th level worth of caster classes, you'd start acquiring additional spell slots as if you were 1st level through 20th again. You'd cap at at 2 of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th, then the cycle repeats. The alternative I guess could be higher level spell slots reserved exclusively for upcasting. That might work and might fix problem #2...

2) Damage. My bigger concern. Cantrip scaling is really a bigger problem of damage scaling overall. Anything we decide would need to work for martials and casters. I don't exactly want to just keep handing out more attacks forever. A potential solution could be a flat damage bonus to any spells or attacks based on your level, maybe +1 per level above 20. The other potential solution is looking at each class, figuring out how their damage scales, and come up with a way to continue that progression somehow. But that sort of runs counter-intuitive to taking a second set of 20 class levels so I don't have a great answer here yet.

3) Gentleman's agreement not to cheese it more or less. With so many different DMs it's pretty easy because eventually any problematic combo you might enjoy as a player becomes a headache for you as a DM.


Given that I was just in a game where a party of four 18th level PCs disposed of a Balor riding an adult red dragon, a room of high level casters and paladins and then an un-nerfed CR 30 god - all without taking a rest, I'm not sure what remains to be gained by going beyond 20th level.


No idea. We intend to find out.


I'd keep it simple. A character can't take level in any class, after reaching 20 character level. After that point, set a fix number of XP and every time the character reach that threshold, he gets CON mod HP + a special boon of his choice from the DMG and/or from those created by the DM.

Again, really don't like boons, and the idea is we have no cutoff date for this thing so we want to keep leveling and fighting increasingly weirder and more insane opponents. Mecha Tiamat has been thrown around in jest but I know we'll get there.

[nickl_2000]

I'm pretty sure that a Paladin 20/ Monk 20 wouldn't ever fail a saving throw in the game.


I'm trying to find some cheese with the Wizards Signature spells combining with another class, but I can't think of a way to abuse that one yet

[Vogie]

As long as you have the CR equally scaling, there won't be much issue. Barbarians' Primal Champion will be reduced in value as the cap will already be raised.

That being said, 17th level Barbarians with 15 levels of Champion Fighter will have absurd damage due to the interactions between Brutal Critical and Superior Critical.

Double Shot Holy Grounds (Divine Soul Coffeelocks) will be a problem, as they can effortlessly exchange high-level warlock slots into sorcery points, then back into spell slots, then cast Greater Restoration on themselves to remove the exhaustion. They'd need to have some way to ignore sleep, but there are races, patrons (undying) and invocations (Aspect of the Moon via Tome) that will allow it.

All the Wizard Cheese.


Some cool things that you could do:

Use Feats from previous editions and Pathfinder - those feats were usually more niche, and a 5e feat is usually worth 2-3 of a 3.P feat. That'd spread out the value of feats
Require Gish builds or MADness - You won't have to worry as much about the double classing if they're going to be based on different fighting styles, or stats. You can't be a Sorlock or Rogue Ranger, but you can be a Barbarian Cleric or Warlock Druid.
Create Feats that allow faux prestige classes - Such as, the ability to Sneak attack with spells, the ability to have a moment of clarity (temporarily suppress rage benefits/downsides for one round without losing rage), ability to create permanent or triggered spells, ability to craft unique magic objects, ability to create new spells by blending two spells together into new combinations, et cetera

[nickl_2000]

Would there be cheese in the Paladin's Greater steed/ Beastermaster's ability to cast on themselves and the beast at the same time and Wizard's signature spell?

[Brawnspear]

Here are the potential issues I see

1) How do spells slots keep scaling? There is no scaling for casters after level 20
,

My suggestion for this would be to start adding spell points after you reach caster level 20. It adds in some flexibility that smacks of epic levels and avoids the need of figuring out slot equivalence.

At caster level 21, you have your full spell slots and 4 spell points, so you can cast either 2 level 1s extra or a level 2, and since you are already a 20th level caster as you gain spell points you can use them for any slot you want.

[Foxydono]

I'm in a campaign were we play epic levels. We follow both the monsters and character creation based on the content made by Dave. He made a 300 page monster manual with gods and other CR 20+ level creatures to match epic gameplay. We are currently in the fifth layer of hell planning with Leviatus to take down Admodeus. It is too much to write all the rules down, but you can check out: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469018-(5e)-IMMORTAL-RULES

If you are interested. Have fun with the games!

[Kane0]

Some potential Epic level rules I've been tossing up:

- Epic characters are characters of level 21 to 30
- Epic characters must multiclass, as each class cannot progress past level 20
- An epic character gains proficiency in one saving throw granted by one of their classes when they reach level 21
- Epic characters have a proficiency bonus of +7 at level 21, +8 at level 25 and +9 at level 29
- Cantrip damage and other scaling effects increase at levels 23 and 30.
- Spell slots start over (and stack) after level 20 on the multiclass spell slot table. Eg a Wizard 20 / Sorcerer 10 would have the cumulative slots of a 20th and 10th level spellcaster.
- Epic characters can raise their ability scores higher than 20 using ASIs, to a maximum of 30
- Epic characters can attune to one additional magic item

[LordEntrails]

If you want to keep it simple, do what the DMG says, and what DanyBalon says. You don't level up after 20th. No new classes, all you get at various times are new boons.

[Greywander]

The problem with, say, increasing proficiency bonus is that it can break bounded accuracy, which does strange things. Also, once you reach 20th level you can spend 30k XP for an ASI, and raise your ability scores to 30 (DMG page 230, "Alternatives to Epic Boons"). So you might want to disallow that, too (especially since Unarmored Defense and Aura of Protection allow you to double-up on ability score modifiers for AC and saving throws. You can actually get to the point where it's impossible to fail a saving throw unless the enemy is using magic items to boost their spell save DC).

Here's what I'd suggest, to keep things simple:
Once players reach 20th level, they can spend an epic boon (30k XP) to gain "extra" class levels.
You can't have more than 20 levels in any one class, so multiclassing is required.
You still count as a 20th level character. Thus, proficiency bonus does not change.
You don't gain hit dice, but you can swap a smaller hit die for a larger one.
You only gain minimal HP depending on that class's hit die: +1 for d8, +2 for d10, +3 for d12. d6 gets nothing.
Since you still count as 20th level, you get no CON bonus or Toughness bonus for "extra" levels.
Your caster level can increase, but not past 20.
Alternatively, you gain spell points (DMG page 288) for each caster level past 20. Probably 2-4 per level. (Thanks to Brawnspear for suggesting this.)

To sum it up, you basically only get the class features from your "extra" levels. The minimal HP increase is mostly just to make it so that it doesn't matter what order you take class levels in, you end up with the same average HP.

[UrielAwakened]

I'm in a campaign were we play epic levels. We follow both the monsters and character creation based on the content made by Dave. He made a 300 page monster manual with gods and other CR 20+ level creatures to match epic gameplay. We are currently in the fifth layer of hell planning with Leviatus to take down Admodeus. It is too much to write all the rules down, but you can check out: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469018-(5e)-IMMORTAL-RULES

If you are interested. Have fun with the games!

This is a pretty great benchmark for what we can use. Thanks!


If you want to keep it simple, do what the DMG says, and what DanyBalon says. You don't level up after 20th. No new classes, all you get at various times are new boons.

This reminds me of the scene from the Office.

"What's the safest way to go skiing. Don't ski."


- Epic characters are characters of level 21 to 30
- Epic characters must multiclass, as each class cannot progress past level 20
- An epic character gains proficiency in one saving throw granted by one of their classes when they reach level 21
- Epic characters have a proficiency bonus of +7 at level 21, +8 at level 25 and +9 at level 29
- Cantrip damage and other scaling effects increase at levels 23 and 30.
- Spell slots start over (and stack) after level 20 on the multiclass spell slot table. Eg a Wizard 20 / Sorcerer 10 would have the cumulative slots of a 20th and 10th level spellcaster.
- Epic characters can raise their ability scores higher than 20 using ASIs, to a maximum of 30
- Epic characters can attune to one additional magic item

This is basically identical to what we have so far. Have you tested any of this yet? Does it work well? Do you have a way to balance martial damage output with scaling cantrips?

[Sigreid]

I've been thinking for epic in addition to the epic boon choices I might let players pick one class feature each time they would have leveled. One feature at a time and you have to work your way up. No jumping to the level 14 ability. The feature can be from any core class or subclass. I think this strikes a nice balance between getting to be special and unique and being a controllable progression.

[Greywander]

I've been thinking for epic in addition to the epic boon choices I might let players pick one class feature each time they would have leveled. One feature at a time and you have to work your way up. No jumping to the level 14 ability. The feature can be from any core class or subclass. I think this strikes a nice balance between getting to be special and unique and being a controllable progression.
What happens with class features that scale with level? For example, Sneak Attack? Or Ki? Or spellcasting? Do you have to purchase each level's worth individually? Do you buy them in chunks? What if you multiclassed and you're buying features from a class you already have levels in?

It's an interesting idea, and similar to what I posted above, except I straight up give an entire level's worth of class features, so it's much easier to keep track of what your equivalent level in that class is. It's an interesting idea, especially being able to grab features from multiple subclasses, so if you can work out that one kink I might have to steal the idea from you.

[Sigreid]

What happens with class features that scale with level? For example, Sneak Attack? Or Ki? Or spellcasting? Do you have to purchase each level's worth individually? Do you buy them in chunks? What if you multiclassed and you're buying features from a class you already have levels in?

It's an interesting idea, and similar to what I posted above, except I straight up give an entire level's worth of class features, so it's much easier to keep track of what your equivalent level in that class is. It's an interesting idea, especially being able to grab features from multiple subclasses, so if you can work out that one kink I might have to steal the idea from you.

Yes, you have to progress one step at a time. If you already have the lower level features from multi class, that counts for the prerequisites.

Go for it.

[Lombra]

Handle it as if you were playing gestalt

[KOLE]

From what you’re saying- you guys seem to enjoy uncharted territory, and have a really solid group. I’d say just go for it- let the players mess around with it and see what happens! Then report back to us with your findings.

[Kane0]

This is basically identical to what we have so far. Have you tested any of this yet? Does it work well? Do you have a way to balance martial damage output with scaling cantrips?

Ah, we must be great minds then :smalltongue:

As you start multiclassing it's a lot easier to pick up additions to martial damage output compared to cantrips and casting, so we haven't encountered much of a problem so far. Mind you we've only tested once or twice in oneshots, but nothing stuck out as particularly unbalanced.

My advice: Don't sweat it. Go with what sounds good to you as a group, have fun with it and refine your ideas as you go. DPR charts and other balance minutiae are a good starting point if you are inclined, but after a certain point you just have to sit down, play the game and put your white-room math to the test.

[Hotketchup]

Friends and I run a rotating-chair 5e game that's already 12th level and likely to reach 20th inside of a year. We're trying to figure out how to do 5th edition epic tier without having to add anything new to the game if possible (short of custom items and monsters as each dm deems appropriate). Meaning no custom epic tier classes, or epic destinies, or additional spell slots, etc... As few modifications to the system as possible.

We're debating if the system would hold up if you could start taking levels in another class after 20th level. Say, you started as a Wizard 18/Warlock 2, finished your last two levels of Wizard, then took 18 levels of Warlock. Or started taking Fighter levels if you wanted. Or Cleric. Whatever. You would end up a Wizard 20/Warlock 20, effectively a 40th level character.

Presuming your proficiency bonus scales every 4th level, and you upped the cap on ASIs periodically so players didn't run out of feats, do you think the system would hold up? I'd imagine most encounters would be against similar-CR monsters, we don't tend to use a bunch of monsters with a lower-CR than the party, so bounded accuracy isn't as big a deal. Monsters would largely be custom to stay relevant as well.

Are there any painfully-broken builds that might arise? Any other considerations we should know about? Do we need to inject a way for damage to keep scaling consistently?

And before anyone suggests Boons, they're really boring. No thank you.

My campaign I am writing will bring the characters to level 30 and optionally make them the new pantheon. too any think the gods just sit around and eat grapes.. not mine.. they're constantly challenged on the galaxy level to protect their worshippers ..

[Malifice]

My recent campaign went well past 20th. Half a million XP per player plus.

I just used Epic boons and it worked out fine. Them plus artifacts and so forth.

[DeadMech]

I can't say I have any real insight into how this works. Never played this high, never dm'd this high and likely I will never have opportunity to do so unfortunately. So I'm not going to claim to understand how the game behaves at scouter destroying power levels.

The easiest way... let the players buy epic boons like described in the DMG. They're pretty neat.

But... maybe I want more. Lacking an epic level handbook full of epic level monsters I personally if I was running it would shy away from letting my players just take more levels with all that entails. At a point they will just mathematically outstrip anything in the monster manuals. What I want I think is for them to stay at the relative power level of mortals but perhaps become more diversified in their abilities and well rounded.

So each level I would let them take a new class level but treat it as a bit of a gestalt. If the new class has a higher hitdice they replace one of their hitdice with it. Players that choose to take classes with the same hitdice or a the same class but different subclass I might allow to just take a single max hitdice per level. So their HP will go up as they level but it will never go beyond what was theoretically possible for a level 20 PC.

I probably wouldn't let them spend ASI's beyond what was already possible in the rules. This would encourage them to use their ASI's after maxing their primary stat to gain interesting feats and to increase secondary and tertiary stats. I'd let them retrain old stat only ASI's. The +2 int the wizard took early on was a good choice when getting a +5 modifier ASAP was priority one but trading it for Linguist might make more sense now that they have earned their first epic ASI and want Observant.

Their proficiency bonus wouldn't increase. They wouldn't gain more attacks, cantrips wouldn't continue to scale. Because they are going to be fighting the same enemies from the same books. Because I don't really want to make tougher and tougher enemies myself.

Maybe at level 21 they get to choose 2 new skills to take proficiency in from their combined class lists. Or maybe I make their take the skilled feat or the boon of skill proficiency if they want more skills. I dun know.

They get new class features paying attention to enforce that numbers don't get boosted twice by the same ability score. Would I let them have more spell slots... probably. At level 21 a couple extra first level spell slots probably isn't much incentive. And 2 level 9 spell slots by level 37 is still less than what epic boons would let them do. Does this work for things like ki points or sorcery points as well. I dun know. I haven't thought enough about it. And I haven't gotten much experience with those classes.

Of course maybe you want epic levels to be less delayed gestalt and more official probation godhood. In which case yeah go ahead and throw out everything I said. Go hog wild. Pump those ability score maximums, pump that proficiency bonus, pile on those extra hitdice. Maybe we'll get a 5e deities and demigods book eventually.