Color spray

[CNFish]

Does the effect of color spray stack. For blindness and stun? Both give a -2ac on their own. So does a creature hit with this take a -4AC

[ryu]

Does the effect of color spray stack. For blindness and stun? Both give a -2ac on their own. So does a creature hit with this take a -4AC

A stunned creature is entirely helpless. This means you can not only guarantee hits but guarantee crits. It's called coup de grace and is a common strategy for murdering things at low levels.

[Sir_Chivalry]

A stunned creature is entirely helpless. This means you can not only guarantee hits but guarantee crits. It's called coup de grace and is a common strategy for murdering things at low levels.

Stunned isn't helpless. Unconscious/Paralyzed is helpless. Stunned is just no actions. Otherwise a monk would destroy enemies pretty quickly

[CNFish]

Ok. They aren't helpless that's why I'm asking but being stunned does net you an easier target to hit. Thus the negative 2 but does that stack with blindness in the color spray spell

[ryu]

Stunned isn't helpless. Unconscious/Paralyzed is helpless. Stunned is just no actions. Otherwise a monk would destroy enemies pretty quickly

That's actually completely irrelevant to whether monks can harm people because they lack the ability to reliably apply stuns.

[JbeJ275]

Does the effect of color spray stack. For blindness and stun? Both give a -2ac on their own. So does a creature hit with this take a -4AC

Yes, a creature that can barely move is still harder to hit than one that can hardly move and can’t see you coming. Likewise one that can’t see will get even easier to hit if it also can’t move.


Although I feel like I may have had something to do with the asking of the question in the first place.

[CNFish]

Although I feel like I may have had something to do with the asking of the question in the first place.

lol obviously. but when we read color spray specifically for Drake in our campaign it says they are blind for a number of rounds, 'then' stunned for 1


so im thinking because of semantics they are not both blinded and stunned at the same time... also Jbe since this is important im going to refrain from advancing the battle just a bit till we know, because this is important to know whether or not drake was hit and or has a weapon. so bare with me lol

[CNFish]

Color Spray
Illusion (Pattern) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Sor/Wiz 1
Components:
V, S, M
Casting time:
1 standard action
Range:
15 ft.
Area:
Cone-shaped burst
Duration:
Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw:
Will negates
Spell Resistance:
Yes

A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious.
Each creature within the cone is affected according to its Hit Dice.
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round. this is where the problem lies. and im pretty sure because of the comma, and "then" that they are not blinded and stunned at the same time.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.
Material Component: A pinch each of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue.

[Bronk]

Does the effect of color spray stack. For blindness and stun? Both give a -2ac on their own. So does a creature hit with this take a -4AC

They do stack... Color spray isn't inflicting the penalties directly, instead it's inflicting those two conditions, and each condition has it's own untyped modifier.

A creature who is both blinded and stunned would take -2 to AC from being blinded, -2 AC from being stunned, lose dex to AC from because of both conditions, and would drop everything held.

[Malimar]

3 or 4 HD
The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
While the creature is blinded and stunned, it takes the full effect of both conditions.

(Specifically because the penalties from the two conditions are both untyped modifiers, and untyped modifiers usually stack (except with multiple applications of the same effect).)

[CNFish]

They do stack... Color spray isn't inflicting the penalties directly, instead it's inflicting those two conditions, and each condition has it's own untyped modifier.

A creature who is both blinded and stunned would take -2 to AC from being blinded, -2 AC from being stunned, lose dex to AC from because of both conditions, and would drop everything held.

I feel like thats a little too powerful for a cantrip. but still the semantics matter, its either they are blinded and stunned for a number of rounds. or they are blinded for a number of rounds and stunned for 1.....

[ryu]

I feel like thats a little too powerful for a cantrip. but still the semantics matter, its either they are blinded and stunned for a number of rounds. or they are blinded for a number of rounds and stunned for 1.....

Probably because it's not a cantrip? Cantrips are level 0. This is one of the better level one spells.

[Andezzar]

I feel like thats a little too powerful for a cantrip. but still the semantics matter, its either they are blinded and stunned for a number of rounds. or they are blinded for a number of rounds and stunned for 1.....Neither. They are blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, during which time they suffer the effects of both conditions. Then both conditions are removed and only the stunned condition affects them. Another way to look at it is that the target is stunned for 1d4+1 rounds and blinded for 1d4 rounds, but roll the die only once.

[CNFish]

right, I don't know why I said cantrip. that was a slip up. still though, the semantics for 3-4HD creatures is making this weird for me.

[ryu]

right, I don't know why I said cantrip. that was a slip up. still though, the semantics for 3-4HD creatures is making this weird for me.

There's also a very real debate it's not even the best level one spell.

Sleep offers a competitive effect with heavier cast time but actual range, power word pain is a terrifying encounter ender at the same low levels color spray is a thing, nerveskitter is terrifyingly powerful turn order manip that never stops being powerful, grease is brutally effective and generally applicable on top of being battlefield alteration WITH the save.

I'm not saying color spray isn't powerful, but it's hardly some great anomaly in its spell level. Keep in mind i mostly limited that to spells that get used in similar situations. There's lots of other good ones too.

[Crichton]

right, I don't know why I said cantrip. that was a slip up. still though, the semantics for 3-4HD creatures is making this weird for me.

Wierd how? For the first 1d4 rounds, the creature is both blinded and stunned. After that time, they remain stunned for an additional 1 round, but are no longer blinded. I'm not sure what words you're interpreting as this:


its either they are blinded and stunned for a number of rounds. or they are blinded for a number of rounds and stunned for 1.....


I can't find any language in Color Spray, either in the PHB or the SRD, to support your second interpretation. The wordage is [set of conditions 1] THEN [set of conditions 2].

The word 'then' is a temporal separator, indicating when the first set of conditions ends, and what happens after that.


For reference:




The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.


Maybe if they'd phrased it 'then stunned for 1 additional round it would be less confusing?

[heavyfuel]

I feel like thats a little too powerful

Welcome to high tier classes.

If you think it's too powerful, be nice to the DM and don't use it. If you're the DM, rule zero it.