4th edition conversion?

[DSCrankshaw]

So a new version of D&D is coming out next year. I'm wondering if The Order of the Stick will make the conversion. Will they suddenly start developing nifty new abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html), complaining that the laws of the universe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) have changed while they weren't looking, and trying to figure out whether Varsuvius is an elf or an eladrin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070905a)? Or will we get, at most, a brief nod that the 4th edition train has passed and the Order of the Stick has declined to jump on?

While D&D rules are the bread and butter of this comic, and it would hurt for the rules it operates under to deviate from the rules players are using, trying to keep up with 4th edition would be daunting. Especially if the changes are as extensive as seems indicated: half-orc barbarians and gnome druids may have both their races and classes stolen from them, and even bards, foolish humans or otherwise, may not make the core rule books. And those races and classes that do remain promise to be radically different from what we've known, as the article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070905a) I linked to above shows for elves. (Imagine the ramifications if goblins suddenly become a PC race, for those of you who've read Start of Darkness.) Some of this can be handled with a homebrewed campaign setting, but homebrewing so many races and classes will no doubt be daunting, especially when each needs multiple talent trees and powers and maneuvers, or however they're making it work. Granted, this gives Rich a wide open playground, where he can make whatever poorly defined rules he wants--after all, clearly defined rules are the opposite of what OotS is about. Still, it looks like it will be a challenge--I wonder if Rich will want to bother.

[Tal9922]

What?! They're cutting out druids?! They wouldn't dare!

[Morty]

There's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55704) about OoTS switching to 4ed, it's still on first page.
It's unlikely that group will be converted to 4ed, since Giant apparently said himself the jokes about switch to 3.5 were mistake. And chances that goblins will we PC race are zero. After all, good-aligned characters need someone they can mindlessly slaughter.

[LM TR]

one word: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[isocum]

probably there will be an argument strip about conversion to 4th, but eventually they'll decide to wait for 4.5

[Spiryt]

I linked to above shows for elves. (Imagine the ramifications if goblins suddenly become a PC race, for those of you who've read Start of


Ugh... Goblins are PC race, even in core, you have "Goblins as characters" entry, and you can play goblins without any problems... Goblins are anyway special in OotS world, cause they're bigger, and since this world openly operates under some D&D/parody rules, goblins are - you know SOD spoilers.

So even big changes in goblin stats/conception won't do much to OotS goblins.

[warmachine]

I reckon not till a year after release. It'd take a year before most of the quirks and oddities of 4th edition are discovered, so they can be made into jokes.

Note that WotC have said that no conversion rules will be issued and one shouldn't bother trying - rebuild from scratch around the original, character concept. This suggests a risk of an OotS character not being buildable or being poorly optimised. For example, Bard is supposed to have a leadership role in combat, which the Cleric also fills. This role provides buffs and healing. Elan personality may not convert. Conversion difficulties may block the attempt. I'm not certain but I think the author can overcome this.

[Mugen Nightgale]

I've been told that Monks are out of the 4ed.

[JasonDoomsblade]

I'll bet that strip 500 will be OotS switching to 4.0.

[Spiryt]

I'll bet that strip 500 will be OotS switching to 4.0.

They will release 4ed in May 2008.

OotS will be back on 17th. So even considering 1 strip per week and Christmass break we will have 500 on the very beginning of January. There's no way.

[NerfTW]

That would be rather difficult, seeing as how the comic will hit 500 in a few months, and 4th ed isn't being fully released until next year.

[Tal9922]

That would be rather difficult, seeing as how the comic will hit 500 in a few months

uhh, more like few weeks actually :smallsmile:
If the hiatus did Rich any good at all he should be able to start updating 3 times a week again.

[Gez]

I'm not sure how switching to 3.5 could have been a mistake. It was the first strip. As far as the story goes, it never really switched to 3.5, it started in 3.5. The few panels before that switch were devoid of story, characterization, rule content or even jokes.


Ugh... Goblins are PC race, even in core

PC race == "race in the Player's Handbook."

It doesn't matter if something is available to players in the Monster Manual, the Monster Manual is a DM's book, and goblins or whatever else as a playable race is an option the DM can choose to open.

[Morty]

I'm not sure how switching to 3.5 could have been a mistake. It was the first strip. As far as the story goes, it never really switched to 3.5, it started in 3.5. The few panels before that switch were devoid of story, characterization, rule content or even jokes.


It's not about that. From what I've heard, in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools Giant made a comment that jokes from transition into 3.5 were mistake, because they needed detailed knowledge of 3.0 and 3.5 rules to be really understood.

[Green Bean]

Ugh... Goblins are PC race, even in core, you have "Goblins as characters" entry, and you can play goblins without any problems

In the words of the Dark One (from SoD),

"Those rules are crap and you know it!"

[DSCrankshaw]

There's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55704) about OoTS switching to 4ed, it's still on first page.
It's unlikely that group will be converted to 4ed, since Giant apparently said himself the jokes about switch to 3.5 were mistake. And chances that goblins will be PC race are zero. After all, good-aligned characters need someone they can mindlessly slaughter.
See, I looked for a thread on 4th edition before I posted this and couldn't find it. Maybe if it had 4th edition in its subject line? Eh, they'll probably lock this one now.

Anyway, goblins were a PC race in Urban Arcana, so it's not impossible, but d20 Modern isn't quite as combat oriented, nor is it so focused on the war between good and evil.

[mockingbyrd7]

OKAY, hold on. I'm not a member of that DnD site so I can't read the articles, but from I've heard from people that they're getting rid of:

-Bards
-Monks
-Rangers
-Druids
-Barbarians
-Sorcerers
-Gnomes
-Half Orcs

If all this is true, I doubt ANYONE will switch to 4th edition. I suspect it's all to stir up contraversy, which equals publicity. Who knows, though?

[DSCrankshaw]

OKAY, hold on. I'm not a member of that DnD site so I can't read the articles, but from I've heard from people that they're getting rid of:

-Bards
-Monks
-Rangers
-Druids
-Barbarians
-Sorcerers
-Gnomes
-Half Orcs

If all this is true, I doubt ANYONE will switch to 4th edition. I suspect it's all to stir up controversy, which equals publicity. Who knows, though?
Rangers and Sorcerers are in. The ones who are in doubt are Bards, Monks, Druids, Barbarians, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs. Indications are that Bards and probably Gnomes will appear, if not in the first Player's Handbook, then in one of the later ones.

That leaves Monks, Druids, and Barbarians in doubt. I think Druids will be added eventually. Barbarians and Monks may instead become subsumed into other classes. Note, Wizards of the Coast has not said definitively that any of these are out. They have said that there will be fewer classes in this version, and that they're redoing the races.

[Studoku]

OKAY, hold on. I'm not a member of that DnD site so I can't read the articles, but from I've heard from people that they're getting rid of:

-Bards
-Monks
-Rangers
-Druids
-Barbarians
-Sorcerers
-Gnomes
-Half Orcs

If all this is true, I doubt ANYONE will switch to 4th edition. I suspect it's all to stir up contraversy, which equals publicity. Who knows, though?

They're getting rid of all these and not removing drow?:smallfurious:

[NerfTW]

Drow weren't in the original basic book anyways, were they?


This would be like complaining that they aren't getting rid of *insert cheesy splat book race here*, because it wasn't on that list.

[DSCrankshaw]

For what it's worth, the last podcast spent some time talking about monks. It wasn't at all clear that they're in, but it was sounding more likely than I'd thought.

[Gez]

It's not about that. From what I've heard, in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools Giant made a comment that jokes from transition into 3.5 were mistake, because they needed detailed knowledge of 3.0 and 3.5 rules to be really understood.

You don't really need to know the rules. You can just see that there are changes, and that these changes please everyone except the one who was anticipating them the most, Belkar. And that's enough.

[dragonseth]

I don't think they'll change. But maybe that's just my bias, because I really, really, REALLY don't want them to. But, maybe that's just my bias, because I really, really, REALLY don't like 4th edition. I refuse to downgrade to 4th.:smallyuk:

[Morty]

You don't really need to know the rules. You can just see that there are changes, and that these changes please everyone except the one who was anticipating them the most, Belkar. And that's enough.

Well, yes. But the point is, Giant apparently considers switch-based jokes mistake, so it doesn't matter if some of readers don't. It's fairly possible we won't see any 3.x->4ed jokes.

[Gez]

I don't think they'll change. But maybe that's just my bias, because I really, really, REALLY don't want them to. But, maybe that's just my bias, because I really, really, REALLY don't like 4th edition. I refuse to downgrade to 4th.:smallyuk:

You know, while what I've seen in previews doesn't enthuse me much (what, no gnomes, but twice as many elves as before? blasphemy!), I'll wait until it's actually released before passing judgment. :smallwink:

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

OKAY, hold on. I'm not a member of that DnD site so I can't read the articles, but from I've heard from people that they're getting rid of:

-Bards
-Monks
-Rangers
-Druids
-Barbarians
-Sorcerers
-Gnomes
-Half Orcs

If all this is true, I doubt ANYONE will switch to 4th edition. I suspect it's all to stir up contraversy, which equals publicity. Who knows, though?
One of these will be removed.


They're getting rid of all these and not removing drow?:smallfurious:
If they removed Drow from Forgotten Realms (now the "core setting"), WotC would have to fight off a swarm of rabid Drizzt fans.

[Spiryt]

;3166810']One of these will be removed.


If they removed Drow from Forgotten Realms (now the "core setting"), WotC would have to fight off a swarm of rabid Drizzt fans.

Not to mention changing all world history, mythology, all stuff that Drizzt D had done e.c. ....

[Green Bean]

Not to mention changing all world history, mythology, all stuff that Drizzt D had done e.c. ....


Perhaps the Drow will be removed as a player race? That would likely save them from too much ret-conning

[Amalith]

OKAY, hold on. I'm not a member of that DnD site so I can't read the articles, but from I've heard from people that they're getting rid of:

-Bards
-Monks
-Rangers
-Druids
-Barbarians
-Sorcerers
-Gnomes
-Half Orcs

If all this is true, I doubt ANYONE will switch to 4th edition. I suspect it's all to stir up contraversy, which equals publicity. Who knows, though?

Bards are still in :frown: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070831a) <-----linky

"When the bard enters the 4th Edition stage, she’ll have class features and powers that help her fill what we call the Leader role. As a character whose songs help allies fight better and recover hit points, the bard is most likely to fit into a player character group that doesn’t have a cleric, the quintessential divine leader."

[Drascin]

;3166810'][I]
If they removed Drow from Forgotten Realms (now the "core setting"), WotC would have to fight off a swarm of rabid Drizzt fans.

Uh? FR as Core setting? Wasn't Core supposed to be about a new world created around that "points of light" theory thingie, with specific worlds (FR, Ebarron, etc) being released apart from it?

[JasonDoomsblade]

That would be rather difficult, seeing as how the comic will hit 500 in a few months, and 4th ed isn't being fully released until next year.

Well excuse me for not obsessing over D&D. I dont even know what kind of game it is. I'm assuming its like WoW, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Morty]

Well excuse me for not obsessing over D&D. I dont even know what kind of game it is. I'm assuming its like WoW, but correct me if I'm wrong.

D&D has nothing in common with WoW, as it's table-top game played with books, not MMO"RPG".
And FR won't be "core setting", it's just they'll release it first, before Eberron or anything else. At least as far as I know.

[dragonseth]

D&D has nothing in common with WoW, as it's table-top game played with books, not MMO"RPG".
And FR won't be "core setting", it's just they'll release it first, before Eberron or anything else. At least as far as I know.

This is really funny, actually. I argue with people all the time about 4th ed., and D&D is becoming very similar to an MMORPG from what we've seen and deduced. WOTC wants more money.(What do you get when you hit Shift+4?) What's making money right now? WoW. So, they make it more like an MMORPG to get newer and more customers. They make it simpler (which we've heard in previews and such), and a little more cartoony/anime (look at the new monster designs!). I'm also seeing a little bit of Yu-Gi-Oh! syndrome in the monster preview. Exorbitantly large numbers for things that could be represented by significantly lower numbers. They put a large emphasis on online stuff, 'supplements' right now, but that'll change. Party roles. Leader, Controller, Striker, and Defender. This is exactly like the Archetype system in City of Heroes. They even share two of the same names. They say they are 'more clearly defining class roles', so I can no longer have a melee-competent Bard? My Half-Orc hitting you over the head with his lute is no longer an option? (Was quite a bit of fun, actually) I've been calling this 'pigeonholing' in the conversations I've gotten into, as opposed to the softer terms WOTC is using. You see, now they're going to have a system where you place your toons on a virtual map, and it gives you light and such. Saw it at GenCon Indy. More and more stuff will be built into that. Eventually, it'll handle things like rules and such. Then, tabletop gaming as we know it will disappear. Lame.

*Wall of Text!*

Anyway, feel free to disagree with me. I'll probably be back later with a link to the much more eloquent, and much more persuasive arguments on the WOTC boards. Ciao.

[Spiryt]

Anyway, feel free to disagree with me. I'll probably be back later with a link to the much more eloquent, and much more persuasive arguments on the WOTC boards. Ciao.

I can say only one thing -

I hope you are wrong.

[JasonDoomsblade]

D&D has nothing in common with WoW, as it's table-top game played with books, not MMO"RPG".
And FR won't be "core setting", it's just they'll release it first, before Eberron or anything else. At least as far as I know.

What does FR stand for? And what is it?

[dragonseth]

What does FR stand for? And what is it?

Forgotten Realms. It's a campaign setting.

[NerfTW]

No need to get nasty, Jason, I was just pointing out that fourth edition isn't coming out for a while.

I've only played a D&D game once way back in high school, so you can't really say I "obsess" over it.

[DSCrankshaw]

Okay, this is getting kind of far afield from the original question: will 4th edition affect OotS? And if so, how? Let's try to stick to that topic.

[StickMan]

I can see Rich converting Oots for one reason and that depends on how long he plans the story to go for. If this story only lasts for say one or two more years then I think we will not see an update. If it goes 2+ then I think we have a good shoot at seeing a switch, due to the fact that a lot of the comics humor comes from the crap we deal with in our games. Once we hit 4.0 we may start seeing jokes no longer work and Oots will become a rustic throw back to an older time. There is nothing wrong with this its just not going attract people to the comic as much as something that is up to date. Rich uses Oots to move his busyness and hopefully one day publish books not related to Oots but he still needs the capital from a well selling product. Due to this reason I think he may update.

As much as we want to think Rich is this great guy who makes Oots cause he loves us, he does it to make money and build Giant in the Playground. Is there anything wrong with this no, mainly cause unlike Wizards, from the work I've seen Rich do, he actually puts out good products and is not only in it for the money.

What does this mean for each charter well who knows I think we may see Roy as a muliticlass fighter as he may trade in some levels for this new leader class we have been hearing about. Elan well who knows Rich may just have to write him some alt class features or he will do something odd when he gets his chance to update and end up as some comic jumble of classes. Belkar will probably be a strait fighter if the roll Barbarian and Ranger in to Fighter. Everyone else should stay about the same.

[NerfTW]

As shown by the many posts on this forum, there are quite a few people who have no idea what D&D is who still find the comic funny.

Unless the underlying mechanics are changed again, and in a major way, I don't see the need to convert, because they aren't that important to the plot. How many rules comments have they made in the last 400 strips?

Allowing the plot to be changed distinctly due to an outside and unexpected occurance would be a sign of very poor writing. Almost like the big two comic publishers and thier putting world events into comics without regard to how much time has passed in comic.

[Green Bean]

I can see Rich converting Oots for one reason and that depends on how long he plans the story to go for. If this story only lasts for say one or two more years then I think we will not see an update. If it goes 2+ then I think we have a good shoot at seeing a switch, due to the fact that a lot of the comics humor comes from the crap we deal with in our games. Once we hit 4.0 we may start seeing jokes no longer work and Oots will become a rustic throw back to an older time. There is nothing wrong with this its just not going attract people to the comic as much as something that is up to date. Rich uses Oots to move his busyness and hopefully one day publish books not related to Oots but he still needs the capital from a well selling product. Due to this reason I think he may update.

I dunno about that. I mean, half of the DnD humour he does isn't based on the rules, but on the archetypes and storylines of DnD, and fantasy in general. Take the half-ogre cheese build comic. While it does reference 3.5 rules, the core of the joke is based on munchkin characters. That joke would have been equally effective no matter what edition you based it on as long as the core of 'beardy cheese-master getting comeuppance' remained in place. Or take one of the early Miko jokes about being a samurai without being a Samurai. Once again, that would work equally well in all of the previous editions, and will most likely work in 4e. That's the biggest part of what makes OotS such a popular comic; it makes jokes about DnD, not just DnD rules.

[pendell]

I don't have much time at all for RPGs these days .. work takes precedence.. but if the game is that radically different, I'll switch to HACKMASTER. That's a lot closer to the original D&D.

I think it's a mistake to make D&D like WoW. Why? Because A) the technology changes too rapidly for tabletop to keep up (Everquest was the big thing just three years ago, IIRC) and B) if people want to play WoW, they'll buy WoW, not some tabletop imitation.

Who knows? Maybe OOTs will keep playing 3.5. It'll be a few years before 4.0 comes out, and even longer before it becomes popular. Time enough to finish OOTS ... if Rich's health holds out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[DSCrankshaw]

Who knows? Maybe OOTs will keep playing 3.5. It'll be a few years before 4.0 comes out, and even longer before it becomes popular. Time enough to finish OOTS ... if Rich's health holds out.
The reason we're discussing this at all is because 4th edition has been announced for release in May of next year. So it's actually pretty soon, and I doubt the comic will be finished before then. Still, you do have a point that it may not be popular right away, which makes it less of an influence.

[Sequinox]

If they removed Drow from Forgotten Realms (now the "core setting"), WotC would have to fight off a swarm of rabid Drizzt fans.

-- Insert Neat Username Here

Oh man, I don't know HOW to foam at the mouth! I guess they'll have to fight off a swarm of rabid Drizzt fans and a single loser with whipped cream in his mouth growling. :smallbiggrin:

[Alex Warlorn]

To note, the Knights of the Dinner Table don't play Hack Master 4.85 edition. Why should the Order of the Stick play 4E?

[Ganurath]

To note, the Knights of the Dinner Table don't play Hack Master 4.85 edition. Why should the Order of the Stick play 4E?I didn't know Rich had TWO webcomics!