The Minister

[jqavins]

This exchange in a thread in World Building has brought back an old idea for me.




So should people play spontaneous clerics...I don't understand the question. What is a spontaneous cleric?A spontaneous casting cleric; X is to Cleric as Sorcerer is to Wizard.I understand now.
The old idea is an NPC non-adventuring cleric variant I call the Minister but there could be a better name (with less of a connotation of a certain real world religion). It would have some of the regular cleric's class abilities, a few of it's own, probably a more limited spell list, and possibly more low level spells per day.

The exchange brought this to mind because spontaneous casting would be a good way to accomplish the spells part of this. The minister could have access to the whole cleric list to learn spells from, just as the sorcerer has access to the whole wizard's list, but would undoubtedly choose mostly from the more "domestic" spells on the list.

And that sounds like a good prompt to finally detail this class. But I'm at work right now so can't give it any serious effort, and I seem to always be worn out at the end of the day, and my next few weekends will be busy with preparing to move. Anybody care to take a shot at this?

Or am I asking for a reinvention of the wheel because such a class already exists?

[Goaty14]

Or am I asking for a reinvention of the wheel because such a class already exists?

Yup! Favored Soul (Complete Divine or Miniatures Handbook). Just re fluff it from "chosen one of a deity" to "cleric of deity that only prepares once" or something like that.

Though you might consider buffing it, its lack of turn undead and Know. Religion are the major offenders.

[jqavins]

Nope, not that. Not even close. I can't find a good description from a source I know while here at work, but I got this from http://faerunian.wikia.com/wiki/Favored_Soul.
You are a free agent of your deity, unfettered by the strictures of a clerical hierarchy. You wander from place to place, wielding your power to advance the causes you deem worthy in the eyes of your god, or else you choose a great crusade against that which offends your deity, requireing a lifelong commitment and unswerving purpose. While the cleric (http://faerunian.wikia.com/wiki/Cleric) comes to his power through study and discipline, you are the recipient of a great gift--or, as some perceive it, a terrible curse. How you wield the divine power burning in your heart is up to you.

Suggested Backgrounds (http://faerunian.wikia.com/wiki/Backgrounds?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) (choose one): Asetic, Drifter, Noble, Scion.

Suggested Personality Archetypes (http://faerunian.wikia.com/wiki/Personality_Archetypes?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) (choose one): Companion, Crusader, Innocent, Martyr, Prophet, Seeker, Wanderer.

Compare that to
The old idea is an NPC non-adventuring cleric variant... It would have some of the regular cleric's class abilities, a few of it's own, probably a more limited spell list, and possibly more low level spells per day.

The minister... would undoubtedly choose mostly from the more "domestic" spells on the list.

So it may be a divine spontaneous caster, but the resemblance to what I'm looking for ends there. As cleric variants go, this is almost the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. A favored soul is far less likely to be staying in the temple tending his flock than a regular cleric.

[Goaty14]

So it may be a divine spontaneous caster, but the resemblance to what I'm looking for ends there. As cleric variants go, this is just about the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. A favored soul is far less likely to be staying in the temple tending his flock than a regular cleric.

...Which is why I said you should probably refluff it. No part of the actual mechanics of the class forces you to act one way or another. You mentioned this was for a homebrew world, so put it in the fluff text somewhere "Favored Souls act like variant clerics (contrary to the text they were introduced in) and are instead referred to as Ministers" and then you have what you want!


Compared to:

Oh, then just the spontaneous cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant? If you *really* wanted to ignore everything that I just said and make a homebrew ACF, not a new class. Such an ACF would be like...

(WIP)

[aimlessPolymath]

I did some work on the Priest, in my sig, that could easily apply to a noncombatant NPC. In particular, I think that the Bless ability is really important for making the Priest relevant in a way that Adepts aren't; for most spellcasting situations, a lightly modified Adept can cast almost any noncombat Cleric spell that a party would want. What are the major pros to making the NPC noncombat caster spontaneous, compared to prepared casting off a short list?

[jqavins]

...Which is why I said you should probably refluff it. No part of the actual mechanics of the class forces you to act one way or another.OK, as I stated I don't have access to a good description at the moment. I simply assumed that crunch designed to support fluff like that will be very far from supporting a character whose job is to stay home, give out blessings, perform various ceremonies, perform some minor healing from time to time, maybe turn some undead one day if his neighbors are unlucky enough to need that, and generally see to their spiritual health. If the fluffed role in society is so completely opposite, one assumes that the crunch will also be wildly different, because form tends to follow function. Wings? Why would a parish priest ever get wings?


Oh, then just the spontaneous cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant? If you *really* wanted to ignore everything that I just said and make a homebrew ACF, not a new class.No, not jus the spontaneous casting ACF, but rather
It would have some of the regular cleric's class abilities, a few of it's own, probably a more limited spell list, and possibly more low level spells per day.




I did some work on the Priest, in my sig, that could easily apply to a noncombatant NPC. In particular, I think that the Bless ability is really important for making the Priest relevant in a way that Adepts aren't; for most spellcasting situations, a lightly modified Adept can cast almost any noncombat Cleric spell that a party would want. What are the major pros to making the NPC noncombat caster spontaneous, compared to prepared casting off a short list?
I'll check it out. As for the connection to spontaneous casting, it's mostly just that the conversation about a spontaneous cleric (for someone else's world) reminded me of this class idea. It reminded me because sorcerers get more spells per day from a limited list (those they've learned) and that's part of what I was thinking of, so spontaneous casting (with the spells known and spells per day numbers already worked out thanks the existence of sorcerers) might be a quick and easy way to do that part. And the flexibility seems good for this class, though not essential. It might not be the best way to go, but it's what got me going.

[Goaty14]

OK, as I stated I don't have access to a good description at the moment. I simply assumed that crunch designed to support fluff like that will be very far from supporting a character whose job is to stay home, give out blessings, perform various ceremonies, perform some minor healing from time to time, maybe turn some undead one day if his neighbors are unlucky enough to need that, and generally see to their spiritual health. If the fluffed role in society is so completely opposite, one assumes that the crunch will also be wildly different, because form tends to follow function.

Do mind that the only visual manifestation of having levels in the class is casting divine spells and the wings (but those are moot, only coming in at lvl 17), which means that it can be fluffed any which way so long as it still casts divine spells, which your intended change does have (except for turn undead, but isn't that the sort of in-combat ability that you want to avoid?).


Wings? Why would a parish priest ever get wings?

Because they're a status symbol. Anybody strutting around with angel wings is obviously a goody-two-shoes, *very* important person. The better question is how you managed a level 17 NPC.

Ok, but just because a few class features have you off doesn't mean you need to go write up an entirely new class. At worst, you're looking at a simple "Favored Soul + X Y Z".


No, not jus the spontaneous casting ACF, but rather

What unique class features did you have in mind? Nothing that you've mentioned so far can't be done via spells... maybe you want some spells as innate SLAs? (free holy water comes to mind).

Spell restrictions... Nobody wants to rewrite *all* of those spells, so instead I'd just remove
-Spells that deal damage
-Spells that are Range: Personal
-??? (plz help meee...)

[Maat Mons]

If it exists only to be an NPC that heals the party when they stop into town, I'd give it Beguiler/Dread Necromancer style casting. I mean, do you really want to be keeping track of which town's healer can remove which conditions?

As for "more low-level spells," if you use the spellpoints variant, a high-level caster can cast a crapton of low-level spells. Otherwise... I don't know... eventually give the class at-will spell-like abilities to for handling the low-level stuff?

[Morphic tide]

Okay, to try to define the desired characteristics:

1. To provide recovery to at least four PCs of a few levels higher.
2. To provide priestly functions to an area, centered on one location.
3. To provide these characteristics in a non-PC-worthy package.

For narrative purposes, it needs to be considerably overboard in healing capacity, as needing almost all the daily allotment of healing means that the Minister cannot offer the service it is designed for without compromising the societal role it offers. However, it also cannot be capable of entirely invalidating disease and Unholy assault alone, as it otherwise invalidates the need for the PC in those PC-typical roles. It also needs to be relatively simple, as it's not intended to be seriously plot relevant as a rule.

Given these characteristics, I propose the following core features:

1. Sanctuary Casting, confining the bonuses to amplify healing and condition removal, as well as possession removal, to an area dependent on level defined with a four-hour ritual.
2. Lay on Hands, as seen in a number of Paladin reworks, to provide slot-independent healing and basic condition removal of sufficient scale to cover the sheer quantity needed.
3. Conditional fixed-list Full Casting, with the top few levels being chopped outside the Sanctuary and having it so that segments of the list are confined by the Sanctuary.

[brian 333]

I admit to not being a fan of spontaneous casters. The idea that the caster can choose the best spell for the situation is usually dependent upon the player choosing the right spells to know, which usually results in a hammer-nail problem solved by repeated casting of the same hammer-spell to solve every nail-problem. I've always rewarded players for creative use of spells, so even taking unusual spells can have superior results to "inflict x d6 damage," if the player is clever about it.

(Durkon's use of Control Weather to create sonic damage is an extreme example.)

That said, the idea of an NPC divine caster class with spontaneous casting ability is reasonable, but what are the negatives to offset the benefits? A sorcerer gets more spells per day, supposedly limited by the ability to know fewer spells. So far there appears to be no downside, making the class superior to PC clerics.

Normally my NPC clerics have scrolls and potions lying around to service PCs comjng in for major healing. Perhaps your spontaneous casters have trouble with scrolls? I don't know. Perhaps an abbreviated list of spells to choose from or a smaller pool of spell slots might serve better.

Anyway, there should be some reason PCs never choose this career. Like Experts and Warriors, they should suck compared to PC classes.

[jqavins]

Okay, to try to define the desired characteristics:

1. To provide recovery to at least four PCs of a few levels higher.
2. To provide priestly functions to an area, centered on one location.
3. To provide these characteristics in a non-PC-worthy package.Yeah, that's about it.

1. Sanctuary Casting, confining the bonuses to amplify healing and condition removal, as well as possession removal, to an area dependent on level defined with a four-hour ritual.
2. Lay on Hands, as seen in a number of Paladin reworks, to provide slot-independent healing and basic condition removal of sufficient scale to cover the sheer quantity needed.
3. Conditional fixed-list Full Casting, with the top few levels being chopped outside the Sanctuary and having it so that segments of the list are confined by the Sanctuary.
That sounds like a pretty good start on a plan. I hadn't thought of laying on hands; I don't know if I'll use it, but I'll certainly give it some thought. By "possession removal," do you mean exorcisms or payment for services? (Both is, of course, an option.)


[T]he idea of an NPC divine caster class with spontaneous casting ability is reasonable, but what are the negatives to offset the benefits? A sorcerer gets more spells per day, supposedly limited by the ability to know fewer spells. So far there appears to be no downside, making the class superior to PC clerics.I thought I'd said they have the same limitation as sorcerers of having to learn only a few spells, and some cleric spells would not even be on the list to pick from, and for fluff reasons the few combat-relevant spells that are on the list would be low priority choices most of the time.


Normally my NPC clerics have scrolls and potions lying around to service PCs comjng in for major healing.

That's not a bad way idea. I could give them the higher spell count and more free choice by using an ample supply of scrolls rather than spontaneous casting. Maybe give them Scribe Scroll as a class feature, but their scrolls can be used only by members of this class because they use an incompatible method (ancient dead language?) in creating them; that keeps them from becoming scroll factories to supply the PCs.


Anyway, there should be some reason PCs never choose this career. Like Experts and Warriors, they should suck compared to PC classes.
I hadn't stated, but I was thinking d4 for hit dice, all the combat and survivability of a sor/wiz but with the casting of a nerfed cleric. That should be enough. I hadn't stated it because I wanted to see what other possibilities are suggested.


As for "more low-level spells," if you use the spellpoints variant, a high-level caster can cast a crapton of low-level spells. Otherwise... I don't know... eventually give the class at-will spell-like abilities to for handling the low-level stuff?Also good suggestions to consider.

[brian 333]

That's not a bad way idea. I could give them the higher spell count and more free choice by using an ample supply of scrolls rather than spontaneous casting. Maybe give them Scribe Scroll as a class feature, but their scrolls can be used only by members of this class because they use an incompatible method (ancient dead language?) in creating them; that keeps them from becoming scroll factories to supply the PCs...

It occurs to me that instead of spell slots and spontaneous casting, such a character might get rituals which require time and material components to duplicate the effects of cleric spells. The rituals might require a sanctuary to perform, and casting time could be increased to ten-minutes per spell level. The maximum spell level these sanctuaries can generate depend upon the number of worshippers. Consider 10 worshippers times the square of spell level, so Neutralize Poison could be performed in a sanctuary used by 10 x 2(NPs spell level) squared, or 10 x 2 x 2 = 40 worshippers. Raise Dead, (if allowed,) would require a sanctuary used by 10 x 5 x 5 = 250 worshippers.

Such a caster would not be required to sacrifice exp to create healing/cleansing type magic scrolls, but would require 2x cash and material components,. This might allow them to scribe scrolls for sale to fund their operations but those scrolls might be expensive. Such scrolls could be limited to Cure, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, etc.

[noob]

Yeah, that's about it.
That's not a bad way idea. I could give them the higher spell count and more free choice by using an ample supply of scrolls rather than spontaneous casting. Maybe give them Scribe Scroll as a class feature, but their scrolls can be used only by members of this class because they use an incompatible method (ancient dead language?) in creating them; that keeps them from becoming scroll factories to supply the PCs.


Scroll factories of low level spells are not a problem unless somehow you decide that real challenges is making all the balanced encounters of your whole carrier(enough for gaining 20 levels) in a single day without resting.
But using some scrolls between encounters to regain health is not a problem at all(people usually already use a wand of cure lesser wound or a wand of lesser vigor to regain health between encounters and so rarely run out) and using scrolls in an encounter to regain health is a bad tactic.

[jqavins]

It occurs to me that instead of spell slots and spontaneous casting, such a character might get rituals which require time and material components to duplicate the effects of cleric spells. The rituals might require a sanctuary to perform, and casting time could be increased to ten-minutes per spell level. The maximum spell level these sanctuaries can generate depend upon the number of worshippers. Consider 10 worshippers times the square of spell level, so Neutralize Poison could be performed in a sanctuary used by 10 x 2(NPs spell level) squared, or 10 x 2 x 2 = 40 worshippers. Raise Dead, (if allowed,) would require a sanctuary used by 10 x 5 x 5 = 250 worshippers.

Such a caster would not be required to sacrifice exp to create healing/cleansing type magic scrolls, but would require 2x cash and material components,. This might allow them to scribe scrolls for sale to fund their operations but those scrolls might be expensive. Such scrolls could be limited to Cure, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, etc.
Hmmm, ideas taking shape.


The casting time for most spells is 10 minutes. A few take only a standard action, but these are a minority.

Stabilize is one, and stops a character bleeding out, as a successful heal check.
Turn Undead might be a spell, and that would be a standard action.
Surely a few others.
Scribe Ministers' Scroll is a class feature at first level.

Allows scribing only a subset of Minister spells (which do not include all cleric spells to begin with) usable only by Ministers. Cost in cash and material are normal and no XP cost, but that is offset by the limited choice and lack of resale value.
(Regular) Scribe Scroll is a choosable feat, but maybe not for first level. All costs are normal.

A minister who takes this feat also gains the ability to use regular Cleric scrolls, because being able to make them but not use them would just be stupid.
XPs are earned by leading the faithful in regular periodic ritual/worship services. (That is, like weekly RW JXM services, but at different intervals for other religions.) XP award is proportional to the number of sincere worshipers present, and based on the interval to provide the same number per year no matter how often services are held.

This way, when a minister from a larger settlement moves to a smaller one, he brings with him all the XP earned before the move.
No, that's not the only way XP are earned, but it will be primary source since Ministers rarely are involved in other stuff that would gain them any.
Several things work better if done in a sanctuary. There are three levels which work as follows:

With no sanctuary, everything not otherwise specified works as per RAW.
With a sanctuary that the minister created herself, most effects are doubled (subject to reconsideration). The XP award for services held in the sanctuary is increased by the same factor.
With a sanctuary created by a different minister, half that benefit is gained (i.e. 50% increase subject to reconsideration).
Protective wards are easy-ish to make permanent on a sanctuary. Details TBD.
It is a first level spell to create a sanctuary, but the size of it is level dependent. The larger it is, the more people can fit inside giving better XP gain, and the more people can benefit from protective wards.

[noob]

Hmmm, ideas taking shape.


The casting time for most spells is 10 minutes. A few take only a standard action, but these are a minority.

Stabilize is one, and stops a character bleeding out, as a successful heal check.
Turn Undead might be a spell, and that would be a standard action.
Surely a few others.
Scribe Ministers' Scroll is a class feature at first level.

Allows scribing only a subset of Minister spells (which do not include all cleric spells to begin with) usable only by Ministers. Cost in cash and material are normal and no XP cost, but that is offset by the limited choice and lack of resale value.
(Regular) Scribe Scroll is a choosable feat, but maybe not for first level. All costs are normal.

A minister who takes this feat also gains the ability to use regular Cleric scrolls, because being able to make them but not use them would just be stupid.
XPs are earned by leading the faithful in regular periodic ritual/worship services. (That is, like weekly RW JXM services, but at different intervals for other religions.) XP award is proportional to the number of sincere worshipers present, and based on the interval to provide the same number per year no matter how often services are held.

This way, when a minister from a larger settlement moves to a smaller one, he brings with him all the XP earned before the move.
No, that's not the only way XP are earned, but it will be primary source since Ministers rarely are involved in other stuff that would gain them any.
Several things work better if done in a sanctuary. There are three levels which work as follows:

With no sanctuary, everything not otherwise specified works as per RAW.
With a sanctuary that the minister created herself, most effects are doubled (subject to reconsideration). The XP award for services held in the sanctuary is increased by the same factor.
With a sanctuary created by a different minister, half that benefit is gained (i.e. 50% increase subject to reconsideration).
Protective wards are easy-ish to make permanent on a sanctuary. Details TBD.
It is a first level spell to create a sanctuary, but the size of it is level dependent. The larger it is, the more people can fit inside giving better XP gain, and the more people can benefit from protective wards.


Watch out that whole gains xp without fighting makes it very attractive to players who wants to only gain xp and do not care about it being boring.
Imagine that the players starts a 4 minister team with one diplomancer,one who multiclass in mystic theurge and sublime chord, and the rest who multiclass cleric.
Then they all manage to grab the feat that allows to prepare spells(which can be taken when you have spontaneous casting) and then they prepare the sanctuary in their main caster class.
Then they progress in something else than minister while gaining more and more xp and having a bigger and bigger sanctuary which always fits tons of true small followers(made by diplomacy and hypnosis shenanigans and the fact they can cast their sanctuary with their main caster class)
Then they can focus 100% on gaining xp without taking any danger.

[brian 333]

Watch out that whole gains xp without fighting makes it very attractive to players who wants to only gain xp and do not care about it being boring.
Imagine that the players starts a 4 minister team with one diplomancer,one who multiclass in mystic theurge and sublime chord, and the rest who multiclass cleric.
Then they all manage to grab the feat that allows to prepare spells(which can be taken when you have spontaneous casting) and then they prepare the sanctuary in their main caster class.
Then they progress in something else than minister while gaining more and more xp and having a bigger and bigger sanctuary which always fits tons of true small followers(made by diplomacy and hypnosis shenanigans and the fact they can cast their sanctuary with their main caster class)
Then they can focus 100% on gaining xp without taking any danger.

Unfortunately, one cannot gain exp unless it is awarded by the DM. Therefore, the player will discover that his NPC class will advance a level every several years, but his PC classes will not advance at all if the character never adventures. Conversely, adventuring will not improve the Minister class at all because the class requires the character to actually spend time tending his congregation, and time spent on other things retards advancement.