A question about Sorcery Points

[AureusFulgens]

This question popped into my head as I was giving more attention than it probably deserved to that other bizarre thread.

Is it actually possible for a 20th-level sorcerer to indefinitely regain spell slots from converted sorcery points if he doesn't long-rest? You get 4 sorcery points every short rest if you have none left, and to ensure that that is the case, you shunt them into spell slots. Only other thing I can think of that you'd need a long rest for is hit points.

To be absolutely clear, as a DM, I can't imagine actually allowing a player to do this, and it does seem terribly inefficient (a short rest gives you only enough points for a paltry number of slots). But is it "the rules as written don't actually allow this" or "the rules as written DO allow this, but it's stupid and I'm rule-zeroing that lunacy one way or another?" And in the latter case, what extra bits of sanity do the rules require to prevent it?

[Kane0]

Two things:

- You'd need access to Greater Restoration to deal with the exhaustion of not long resting over extended periods of time
- You can only use Sorc Points to recover up to 5th level slots, meaning you will still need to LR for your 6th-9th slots once you use them.

[AureusFulgens]

Got it. Can you remind me what the rules for extended periods without resting are? I've been flipping through my PHB and I can't find it.

And needing a fifth-level spell to sustain it seems prohibitive. You need 7 sorcery points (two short rests) to get back a fifth-level spell slot, so unless you take an unreasonable number of short rests, you'd be spending most of your points on simply keeping a stable level of exhaustion. Although, I suppose, in this already mildly-absurd scenario, maybe a pattern of five hours on/one off for a rest (4 short rests per day, or 16 points) , or 3 on / 1 off (6 short rests per day, or 24 points) isn't too far out there.

[Kane0]

It's basically a level of exhaustion for every 24 hours or so you go without sleep (or trance if you're an elf). Same deal for not getting enough food/water in you.

[Lunali]

Or you could just coffeelock: pick up 3 levels of warlock, take tome pact and aspect of the moon. Every short rest you get 2 level 2 spell slots that can be converted to sorcery points and you no longer need to sleep.

[MaxWilson]

Got it. Can you remind me what the rules for extended periods without resting are? I've been flipping through my PHB and I can't find it.

There are none in the PHB. Xanathar's has an optional rule: after 24 hours without a long rest, make a saving throw (increasing DC the longer you've gone without a long rest) or take a level of exhaustion.

Personally I'd be inclined to treat that 24 hour period fairly loosely, since you can only take a long rest once every 24 hours. No need to hit players with saving throws and exhaustion penalties because they didn't exactly synchronize today's naptime with yesterday's naptime down to the minute.


And needing a fifth-level spell to sustain it seems prohibitive. You need 7 sorcery points (two short rests) to get back a fifth-level spell slot, so unless you take an unreasonable number of short rests, you'd be spending most of your points on simply keeping a stable level of exhaustion. Although, I suppose, in this already mildly-absurd scenario, maybe a pattern of five hours on/one off for a rest (4 short rests per day, or 16 points) , or 3 on / 1 off (6 short rests per day, or 24 points) isn't too far out there.

Also, Greater Restoration costs money.

How often would you actually need more than 24 hours' worth of extra spell slots anyway? That's 13 extra 5th level spells, and change. Do you really need dozens and dozens of 5th level spell slots? Most spells are rate-limited by concentration and action economy anyway.


Or you could just coffeelock: pick up 3 levels of warlock, take tome pact and aspect of the moon. Every short rest you get 2 level 2 spell slots that can be converted to sorcery points and you no longer need to sleep.

Doesn't prevent you from needing to long-rest, though, under Xanathar's rules. You still save vs. exhaustion if you haven't taken a long rest.

[Kane0]

To clarify: With the Aspect of the Moon invocation found in Xan's Guide, so at least 3 levels of Warlock and the Tome Pact to get that.

[Lunali]

Doesn't prevent you from needing to long-rest, though, under Xanathar's rules. You still save vs. exhaustion if you haven't taken a long rest.

Under an optional rule for dealing with sleep deprivation, that is technically true per RAW, though the way it is written suggests that that is not the intent.

Even if not using that optional rule, you should check with your DM before trying to use a coffeelock. I know that if I were the DM I would only allow spending sorcery points to recover spent spell slots, not to create new ones.

[Vebadu]

Ways to bypass exaustion
1) steal the body of Gloom Waver(tome of foes) to get immunity tô exaustion
2) Dragon mask gives cha to AC and legendary resistence. Avoid con save
3) Greater restouration
4) Summoner a autuum(tome of foes) or emphyrean to avoiding Greater restouration's costs

[MaxWilson]

2) Dragon mask gives cha to AC and legendary resistence. Avoid con save

Other suggestions are good but #2 has a problem: Legendary resistance refreshes only on a long rest, so this doesn't avoid the problem so much as just delay it, at a heavy opportunity cost. (You may want to use that legendary resistance for something more important, like a Magic Jar save vs. death.)

[Vebadu]

Other suggestions are good but #2 has a problem: Legendary resistance refreshes only on a long rest, so this doesn't avoid the problem so much as just delay it, at a heavy opportunity cost. (You may want to use that legendary resistance for something more important, like a Magic Jar save vs. death.)
No, legendary resistence is 1/day. It doesnt require long rest
Dragon Queen Mask is legendary resistence 5/day and Sorcerer is Cha based, It doesnt care about Magic jar

[AureusFulgens]

Ways to bypass exaustion
1) steal the body of Gloom Waver(tome of foes) to get immunity tô exaustion
2) Dragon mask gives cha to AC and legendary resistence. Avoid con save
3) Greater restouration
4) Summoner a autuum(tome of foes) or emphyrean to avoiding Greater restouration's costs

I think the trouble with most of these is that they're highly campaign-specific. It's really up to the DM whether the Mask of the Dragon Queen, or any of the mentioned creatures, exists, let alone whether you can access them. Greater Restoration is a solid option, though. I'm also not sure how one summons a CR-23 celestial?

It's a good point that most magic items recharge their properties on an objective day-night cycle, though, as opposed to on their wielder taking a long rest. If your DM allows it, a magic item that confers some ability to cast greater restoration or otherwise reverse failed saves would make this kind of harebrained plot a little more attainable. (If your DM allows ANY of this, which I do not necessarily advise.)

[Vebadu]

I think the trouble with most of these is that they're highly campaign-specific. It's really up to the DM whether the Mask of the Dragon Queen, or any of the mentioned creatures, exists, let alone whether you can access them. Greater Restoration is a solid option, though. I'm also not sure how one summons a CR-23 celestial?
Well, Divine Soul Sorcerer can. Magic Circle + Planar Ally + Planar Binding and you have your empyrean as his PET. With metamagic you can bind 2 of them for 1 year and 1 day. All of this is core, Gloom Weaver is tome of foes and It isn' specific.

[MaxWilson]

No, legendary resistence is 1/day. It doesnt require long rest

"1/day" is shorthand for "1/long rest". This usage is defined explicitly at the front of the MM, because so many monsters have 1/day abilities and apparently they didn't want to write "1/long rest". I'm AFB so I can't cite the page ref right now, but here's a link to the same section of the SRD:



Limited Usage
Some special abilities have restrictions on the number of times they can be used.

X/Day. The notation “X/Day” means a special ability can be used X number of times and that a monster must finish a long rest to regain expended uses. For example, “1/Day” means a special ability can be used once and that the monster must finish a long rest to use it again.

I just realized that you must be one of the masks of the guy who posts all the Nameless King threads, since he's the only other person I've seen who makes similar claims about what "1/day" means.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I just realized that you must be one of the masks of the guy who posts all the Nameless King threads, since he's the only other person I've seen who makes similar claims about what "1/day" means.

Funny. His profile now shows "banned" where most say "X in the playground." Guess this incarnation has been toasted. It's a wonder some people just don't give up.

[MaxWilson]

Well, Divine Soul Sorcerer can. Magic Circle + Planar Ally + Planar Binding and you have your empyrean as his PET. With metamagic you can bind 2 of them for 1 year and 1 day. All of this is core, Gloom Weaver is tome of foes and It isn' specific.

Heh, heh, heh. I'd love to see you try this.

(1) Planar Ally isn't guaranteed to give you an Empyrean. It gives you whatever the otherplanar entity you beseech for aid decides to send you. But for the sake of argument, let's say you get an Empyrean.

(2) Magic Circle creates a 10' radius, 20' high cylinder, which isn't big enough to contain the Empyrean (judging by the giant profiles in the MM).

(3) Even if you somehow got an Empyrean who was short enough to fit into your Magic Circle, Magic Circle will prevent it from leaving the circle via nonmagical means, and will give it disadvantage on its attacks. Sadly for you, it gets +15 on its ranged bolt attacks (24 (7d6) damage per attack) with 600' range. Disadvantage means very little.

(4) The Empyrean has several means of leaving the Magic Circle magically: Dispel Evil (which it can cast on itself), plus Plane Shift.

(5) If by some miracle you manage to keep the Empyrean from leaving the circle, perhaps by means of judicious Counterspells, and manage to avoid getting cooked by its ranged magic attacks... somehow... it still gets a Charisma save vs. Planar Binding, at +15, and at advantage due to Magic Resistance. It's overwhelmingly likely to make its save.

(6) If by some miracle it fails its saving throw, it uses a Legendary Resistance to pass the save anyway.

In short, you deserve what you get if you ask for a Planar Ally and stab it in the back by trying to Planar Bind it. You're going to get yourself killed, and the chance that you'll wind up with a pet Empyrean through this method is zero.

There are other methods that can work but it's not my job to point them out to you.

[Kane0]

Snip

Well, yeah, obviously you couldn't pull it off. You aren't teh Sorcerer King.

Edit: 'teh'

[SirGraystone]

If you are DM, ignore the long rest errata, and decide that the extra slots disappear at dawn.

Or change the sorcerer so sorcery points can be use to regain spent spell slots but not get extra slots, that let them cast more spells everydays, without some sorcelock trying to take a week to accumulate infinite spell slots by never sleeping.