Steve Erwin/Crocodile Dundee: Ranger (3)/Monk (5)/Rogue (3)

[Helliquin]

Hello all

Recently immigrated to Canada from Australia for work - part of the move has been finding a new DnD group.

Finally got one (closest city is 1.5 hours away) that I am skyping in to for most sessions.

Planning out my character - figured I might as well go full Ocker and mash together Steve Erwin, Crocodile Dundee and general Australian stereotypes. Reviewing classes, seems like the ranger/Monk combo fits the bill. Plain old generic human.

Stats @ lvl 1:
STR: 14
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 17
CHAR: 13

Ranger:
Favored Enemy: Beasts (except stingrays)
Natural Explorer: rebranded to be Outback
Fighting Style: Dueling (he loves his knives (aka short sword))
Archetype: Gloom Stalker - loves sneaking up on things and shoving his thumb up its bum running away if they try to bite

Monk:
Martial Arts: Bar fights with his knife AND fists.
Unarmored Defense: Wears a khaki suit... doesnt sound like armor to me.
Archetype: Drunken Master (Australians love a beer), both Erwin/Dundee like to perform
Stillness of mind: Erwin/Dundee are never frightened or charmed.
Purity of Body: immune to poison - been bitten by snakes and spiders too many times

However Im not too sold on damage capacity of the build. Did the math with comparison to picking up Hunter (colossus slayer) instead and Gloom Stalker has higher first round bonus, but loses out after round 3. Figured Gloom stalker provides more utility. And not sold on anything past Stunning Strikes on the monk - although I do understand that the fewer levels I take here, the less Ki and the less useful it'll be.

Note that Im currently lvl 2 - just planning ahead. Ranger first due to flavor reasons.

Trying to stick with Ranger/Monk build, how many levels of Monk would you go... and if not pour the rest of levels in to monk, what other class and/or feat would you take instead to maximize damage?

[GlenSmash!]

It's a pretty great Dundee.

For Steve Irwin I think it lacks a little on the grappling side. That guy was all about grabbing and restraining those crocodiles.

[Helliquin]

It's a pretty great Dundee.

For Steve Irwin I think it lacks a little on the grappling side. That guy was all about grabbing and restraining those crocodiles.

Agreed - but I couldnt work out any way to effectively grapple. STR is pretty low... Perhaps pick up Tavern Brawler feat. It also restricts how many actions/attacks I get a turn (at least from my limited understanding).

If you can see how I can work grappling in there, Im all ears!

[nickl_2000]

Agreed - but I couldnt work out any way to effectively grapple. STR is pretty low... Perhaps pick up Tavern Brawler feat. It also restricts how many actions/attacks I get a turn (at least from my limited understanding).

If you can see how I can work grappling in there, Im all ears!

The Prodigy feat could give you grappling. Give yourself expertise in athletics, that should be enough for almost everyone.

Note, a grapple only takes the place of one attack per turn. So, if you are level 5+ monk you can grapple for you first attack and knife it for the second.

[GlenSmash!]

Agreed - but I couldnt work out any way to effectively grapple. STR is pretty low... Perhaps pick up Tavern Brawler feat. It also restricts how many actions/attacks I get a turn (at least from my limited understanding).

If you can see how I can work grappling in there, Im all ears!

Initiating a grapple only uses one attack if you have extra attack, so no limiting the action economy there. Tavern brawler is a good idea for grappling on a bonus action, but it requires you to hit with an Improvised weapon or unarmed strike first, so things like a Barbarians reckless attack or Battlemaster's Precision attack are quite helpful in landing that hit.

14 strength is pretty good for grappling if you have a way of augmenting it like Athletics Expertise or Advantage on Strength checks, like from Rage.

If using Unearthed Arcana the Scout Fighter also can add half a superiority die roll to Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival checks. All helpful for a man of the wilderness.

[Helliquin]

The Prodigy feat could give you grappling. Give yourself expertise in athletics, that should be enough for almost everyone.

Note, a grapple only takes the place of one attack per turn. So, if you are level 5+ monk you can grapple for you first attack and knife it for the second.

Does the Gloom Stalker additional attack count as a bonus action, or just a second attack?

And sadly the Flurry of Fists are Bonus actions, so no grapple off of them...

The whole 1 bonus action per turn is a bit of a bummer...

[nickl_2000]

Does the Gloom Stalker additional attack count as a bonus action, or just a second attack?

And sadly the Flurry of Fists are Bonus actions, so no grapple off of them...

The whole 1 bonus action per turn is a bit of a bummer...

Monks and Rangers also get an extra attack at level 5 of their class that is not a bonus action. If you take an attack action with a level 5 monk, you get 2 attacks. Then you can also flurry or do the monk bonus action attack.

Gloom stalker on the first round lets you make an additional attack if you take an attack action. This isn't a bonus action, it's just an extra attack. Considering that a grapple or a shove is a special attack, you can grapple them on the first round at level 3 Gloom Stalker Ranger, then shank them afterwards with the shortsword due to the bonus attack (and with extra damage)

[Helliquin]

Monks and Rangers also get an extra attack at level 5 of their class that is not a bonus action. If you take an attack action with a level 5 monk, you get 2 attacks. Then you can also flurry or do the monk bonus action attack.

Gloom stalker on the first round lets you make an additional attack if you take an attack action. This isn't a bonus action, it's just an extra attack. Considering that a grapple or a shove is a special attack, you can grapple them on the first round at level 3 Gloom Stalker Ranger, then shank them afterwards with the shortsword due to the bonus attack (and with extra damage)

And then with Monks Flurry of Blows, land extra attack at lvl 5...

I was thinking of running up to the first opponent, smacking him, flurry of blows, getting disengage through Drunken Master, then waltzing through the pack of enemies to the casters at the back to use Gloom Stalker additional attack, and Monk 5th level additional attack. (having 60 feet movement during combat at this point) I guess one of those two attacks could be a grapple.

However if I grapple/shove to knock prone and stunning strike - to stand up from prone takes half your movement, if your movement is 0 from being stunned.. you cant get up. That works, right?

[strangebloke]

I actually think that monk adds more versatility than additional gloomstalker levels.

You can move faster
You can jump absurd distances
You can dodge as a bonus action
You can run in, poke someone with a knife and then run away.
You can stunning strike powerful enemies

As to damage... Are you remembering hunter's mark? It combos really well with flurry, although you can't use both at once obviously. If you had killed a target using HA before the fight, you can actually put it on your next target from stealth. Also, remember that since TWF does nothing for you as a fighting style, you're free to pick up Dueling for an extra 2 damage on each knife hit.

Your attack sequence for the first round by 8th level is:
knife(1d6+4+1d6+2=13)+knife(13)+knife(13)+punch(1d 6+4+1d6)+punch(11)=61 damage

on the second round its:
knife(13)+knife(13)+punch(11)+punch(11)=48 damage, or 37 if you don't flurry.

compare to a Hunter which at 8th level with short swords and colossus slayer is:

knife(1d6+5+1d8+1d6=15.5)+knife(12)+other knife(12) = 39.5

[vicente408]

I don’t have much to add in terms of build advice but wanted to say I had a very similar character concept for a one-shot game in the past. Difference was I was Basilisk Dundee, a Drow ranger from the Down Underdark. I hadn’t thought of combining Monk and Ranger levels, though, you could be on to something there. Hope it works well!

[Helliquin]

I actually think that monk adds more versatility than additional gloomstalker levels.

You can move faster
You can jump absurd distances
You can dodge as a bonus action
You can run in, poke someone with a knife and then run away.
You can stunning strike powerful enemies

As to damage... Are you remembering hunter's mark? It combos really well with flurry, although you can't use both at once obviously. If you had killed a target using HA before the fight, you can actually put it on your next target from stealth. Also, remember that since TWF does nothing for you as a fighting style, you're free to pick up Dueling for an extra 2 damage on each knife hit.

Your attack sequence for the first round by 8th level is:
knife(1d6+4+1d6+2=13)+knife(13)+knife(13)+punch(1d 6+4+1d6)+punch(11)=61 damage

on the second round its:
knife(13)+knife(13)+punch(11)+punch(11)=48 damage, or 37 if you don't flurry.

compare to a Hunter which at 8th level with short swords and colossus slayer is:

knife(1d6+5+1d8+1d6=15.5)+knife(12)+other knife(12) = 39.5

Agreed that Monk adds more than anything past 3 levels in Ranger. Capping Ranger at 3, then going Monk.

I did a damage comparison between Gloom Stalker Extra Attack and Colossus Slayer - Gloom Stalker build comes out on top of damage first round, but by round 4, the colossus slayer Hunter is equal, after that, on top.

At lvl 8 (3 Ranger, 5 Monk, DEX 20 - using dice average, choosing Duelist, Hunters Mark, Gloom Stalker)

First Attack with Short Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5) +Second Attack with Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5)+ Gloom Stalker additional attack (1D6+2+1D6+1D8+5)+Flurry of blows 2x(1d4+5+1d6) = 63 (dropping to 46 in subsequent rounds) (MAX = 95, MIN =48)

At lvl 8 (3 Ranger, 5 Monk, DEX 20 - using dice average, choosing Duelist, Hunters Mark, Colossus Slayer)

First Attack with Short Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5) +Second Attack with Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5)+Flurry of blows 2x(1d4+5+1d6) +1D8 (colossus) = 50 (MAX = 76, MIN = 33)

Please correct me if my math or dmg equation is wrong, but looks same as yours.

Pretty speedy at this point, with +WIS bonus to INIT, free movement around in combat.

I just wasnt sure on where to go after lvl 8... more points in Monk (to make most of Ki) or... something else.

[Tikkun]

Welcome to the North !!

Why in the world would you want to grapple to shove prone then stunning strike? A successful stunning strike essentially freezes the mob for 2 of your turns giving you advantage the entire time. If you want to prone it do it on the last attack of your second turn ( a stun means it can not make STR or DEX saving throws, so you have an automatic prone).

My favourite scene in Crocodile Dundee is when the kid tries to mug his girlfriend and him at the Lincoln Monument. The kid has a switchblade--like a 2 1/2-3" blade. His girlfriend says "Give him what he wants. He has a knife !" Croc says "You call that a knife? Now, this is a knife." And pulls out a knife with a 2 1/2-3 FOOT long blade. He then shreds the kid's jacket sleeve and the kid runs off. Classic !!

Good Luck with the build. And as a Drunken Master you can be flat out as a lizard drinking and still win the fight.

[strangebloke]

Agreed that Monk adds more than anything past 3 levels in Ranger. Capping Ranger at 3, then going Monk.

I did a damage comparison between Gloom Stalker Extra Attack and Colossus Slayer - Gloom Stalker build comes out on top of damage first round, but by round 4, the colossus slayer Hunter is equal, after that, on top.

At lvl 8 (3 Ranger, 5 Monk, DEX 20 - using dice average, choosing Duelist, Hunters Mark, Gloom Stalker)

First Attack with Short Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5) +Second Attack with Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5)+ Gloom Stalker additional attack (1D6+2+1D6+1D8+5)+Flurry of blows 2x(1d4+5+1d6) = 63 (dropping to 46 in subsequent rounds) (MAX = 95, MIN =48)

At lvl 8 (3 Ranger, 5 Monk, DEX 20 - using dice average, choosing Duelist, Hunters Mark, Colossus Slayer)

First Attack with Short Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5) +Second Attack with Sword(1d6+2+1d6+5)+Flurry of blows 2x(1d4+5+1d6) +1D8 (colossus) = 50 (MAX = 76, MIN = 33)

...

I just wasnt sure on where to go after lvl 8... more points in Monk (to make most of Ki) or... something else.

Math looks about right, although you're missing 2 damage on the unarmed strikes (Martial arts goes up to 1d6 at monk lvl 5) I didn't realize you were looking at a hunter/monk. I though you were talking a straight hunter.

Consider, though, that 'falls behind by the 4th round of combat' is not really a weakness. Most combats are almost over by then, and that burst of damage in the first round was probably worth more than the slightly higher steady-state damage you can get later.

As to progression... eh. Monks get evasion, diamond soul, lots of cool stuff, and you can never have too much ki. A rogue or fight dip is nearly always at least OK. Expertise in stealth and nature? More AC and action surge? Consider a fourth level of ranger as well. Worth it for an ASI/feat.

[Sol]

If you do want to actually grapple rather than just reflavor stunning strike, consider going for the way of the open hand, which lets you (attempt to) prone enemies that you hit with flurry of blows attacks.

You're right that grappling comes at an opportunity cost of trading one of your attacks for it. By most people's readings, a monk can trade their martial arts or flurry bonus action attacks in this way as well, so a level 5+ monk has 3-4 attacks per round that could be converted to grapple attempts. The tricky part is getting your athletics up to a meaningful number as a monk. The prodigy feat or 1 level in Rogue can do it.

The grappler feat is usually considered to be a bad choice for a grappler build, other than the bit about advantage on attacks, which knocking them prone also gives you. Tavern Brawler and/or Shield Master are often better for a typical Barbarian/Rogue grappler build, but provide Bonus Action options that are not better than Martial Arts/Flurry, so are less valuable for a monk build.

Alternately, just use Stunning Strike any time you wish to describe grabbing something.

[Helliquin]

Welcome to the North !!

Why in the world would you want to grapple to shove prone then stunning strike? A successful stunning strike essentially freezes the mob for 2 of your turns giving you advantage the entire time. If you want to prone it do it on the last attack of your second turn ( a stun means it can not make STR or DEX saving throws, so you have an automatic prone).

My favourite scene in Crocodile Dundee is when the kid tries to mug his girlfriend and him at the Lincoln Monument. The kid has a switchblade--like a 2 1/2-3" blade. His girlfriend says "Give him what he wants. He has a knife !" Croc says "You call that a knife? Now, this is a knife." And pulls out a knife with a 2 1/2-3 FOOT long blade. He then shreds the kid's jacket sleeve and the kid runs off. Classic !!

Good Luck with the build. And as a Drunken Master you can be flat out as a lizard drinking and still win the fight.

TBH I hadnt actually read what "stunned" consisted of. Just did. Yep.

Exactly as you suggest, if I want to grapple, last attack on 2nd turn.

Would be beneficial to generic attack and attempt stunning strike, then hopefully have advantage for gloomstalker attack, second attack and flurry attacks.

Seems alright!

So moving on from there... how do I ramp up the DPR?

[Tikkun]

Well monks are usually not considered DPS machines. Their efficacy is in their ability to deal with casters/healers/archers in the back row. That is not to say that they can not deal damage but they will not be in the first tier as say battle master hand crossbow archers or barbarian great axe wielding Great Weapons Masters or Fireball tossing wizards. If you want to give up Drunken Master archetype you might be able to leverage a bit more damage using Kensei or one of the 'caster' type archetypes. However, you will never be as damaging as the top tiers--it's just not what the monk does best.

[Helliquin]

TBH I hadnt actually read what "stunned" consisted of. Just did. Yep.

Exactly as you suggest, if I want to grapple, last attack on 2nd turn.

Would be beneficial to generic attack and attempt stunning strike, then hopefully have advantage for gloomstalker attack, second attack and flurry attacks.

Seems alright!

So moving on from there... how do I ramp up the DPR?

Ignoring the flavor at this point...

Looking in to this a bit further, would seem like taking at least 3 points in rogue, picking up Assassin sub-class, making it Ranger (3) Monk (5) Rogue (3)

Total skills:
- Expertise on Stealth (double proficiency) (Rogue)
- Darksight (and invisibility to creatures who have it) (Gloom Stalker)
- +WIS (4) mod to Initiative (Gloom stalker)
- +10 ft speed (Gloom stalker)
- Attacking with Advantage on those who havnt yet gone (most likely everyone) (Assassin)
- Crit anyone with surprise (Assassin/Gloom Stalker Surprise Self spell)
- AC 19 (10+DEX (5)+WIS (4))
- Disengage in combat (no opportunity/10ft speed - Drunken Master)
- +10ft speed (Monk)
- +attack with bonus 1D8 (Gloom stalker)
- Flurry of Blows (Monk)
- Hunters Mark (1d6 on each hit) (Ranger)
- Dueling (+2 dmg) (Ranger)
- Deflect incoming missiles (Monk)
- stunning strike at will

- 1st round Attack works out to be (assuming Crit and Ki points for Flurry): (2d6+2+2d6+5) +(2d6+2+2d6+5)+ (2D6+2+2D6+2D8+5)+(2d6+5+2d6)+(2d6+5+2d6)+4D6 = MAX (186) AVG (106) LOW (52)
- Second round: (d6+2+d6+5) +(d6+2+d6+5)+(d6+5+d6)+(d6+5+d6) = 72 (MAX)
- Rounds with no Ki: (d6+2+d6+5) +(d6+2+d6+5) = 38 (MAX)

So not much staying power...

And from that point I cant work out any more large increases in DPR. I would kind of like to get it a bit more consistent but seems like all I can pick up with levels 12 and onwards is utility.

I was thinking Rogue (5), Monk (7), Ranger (4) - picking up ASI x 2 (making AC20), Uncanny Dodge, Sneak attack to 3D6 (6D6 on crit), magical flurry attacks, evasion, harder to charm, HP = 85...

However would scrap that plan if there could be a way to squeeze more damage out. Feat or another multi class or whatever.

[Helliquin]

I’ve been looking through the class archetypes, coming across Fighter - Brute.

Since the DM is allowing all UA content...

This is a way to get an additional attack once every short rest, as well as extra damage to each weapon hit...only really need to take three levels in this.

Unless there are better options and or progression paths for the build?