Medium armor

[Kurald Galain]

I was just looking over the equipment tables, and I was wondering - is it just me, or is medium armor really pretty pointless?

The best light armor (chain shirt) gives +4 AC, with a -2 ACP and full movement. The best medium armor (breasplate) doubles the ACP, decreases movement, blocks any number of "light armor only" class abilities, and gives a single piddling point of extra AC. At least heavy armor goes up to +8.

[Dhavaer]

I could have sworn breastplates gave +6 AC, but I was wrong. Yes, breastplates are pretty pointless unless you need every point of AC you can get, can only wear light armour and can afford a mithral one.

[Borogove]

Medium armour can be made rather more interesting by making splint and banded armour medium rather than heavy. This also, incidentally, means someone might actually wear one of those armour types.

Edit: also, mithril breastplates are rather good. Although that's mostly because mithril anything is good.

[Zincorium]

You're not the first to notice that, it's a somewhat frustrating idea.

First off, there's the matter of there being no difference in speed reduction between medium and heavy armor, so if it's a concern to you, then medium armor is unacceptable due to it's minimal increase, or even decrease in the case of hide, over a chain shirt. A staggered progression might increase use, but I don't know if it'd really be meaningful.

Also, I go by a concept of 'maximum AC granted'. That is, look at the total AC granted to you by the armor and your dexterity in that armor, and then go for either the highest value overall (generally full plate) or the lightest armor that will still give a full 8 points of AC total. Breast plates, chain shirts, studded/normal leather all give this value, plate mail is expensive and padded requires an insane dex, but are slightly higher.

The only armors better than a chain shirt are breast plates and plate mail. Generally, a 1300 gp shortfall can be overcome by 5th level at the latest, and plate mail will always give a greater bonus to AC, while only increasing the armor check by two points. It also only requires a 12 dex versus a 16 to get the full benefit.

[Draz74]

Edit: also, mithril breastplates are rather good. Although that's mostly because mithril anything is good.

Yeah, I've seen/made a number of characters who stick with mithral breastplates. High Dex, but not so high that they get the same AC out of a Chain Shirt that they do out of a Breastplate. Concerned about Armor Check Penalties enough to not upgrade to full plate (at least, not when it would also slow them down), but not concerned enough about ACP's that the -1 from a mithral breastplate really bothers them.

[Talya]

Most types of armor are utterly pointless in 3.5. From the SRD alone:

Light
Padded: 1 AC is almost negligible. While with the max dex bonus it allows +9 AC, who has a +8 dex bonus at low to medium levels? You need 26 dex to hit that. Low arcane spell failure chance, but still too high for arcane casters. Very few use it.

Leather: 2 AC is a bit more noticeable, and you might actually hit +6 dex at 22, although it's unlikely. Max total bonus is +8. A few use it.

Studded Leather: The meat and potatoes of non-metal armor. 3AC is worth considering, and +5 max dex is certainly possible; an elf can hit it at level 1. Max total bonus of +8. Lots will use it.

Chain Shirt: 4 ac is good, 4 max dex is high enough to not restrict many people, and low enough that many characters will take full advantage of it. Max total bonus of +8, a staple before you have money for mithral.

Mithral Chain Shirt: Still 4 AC, but 6 max dex bonus allows the very acrobatic characters to use it unrestricted. Zero armor check penalty, too, max total bonus of +10. This is THE staple for most high dex character.

Mithral Scale Mail: Same AC, More expensive, less max dex than Mithral Chain. Nobody uses it.

Mithral Chain Mail: Same AC, Same cost, Less max dex than mithral breastplate. Nobody uses it.

Mithral Breastplate: 5 AC is as high as you can get for light armor, and +5 max dex is rather high as well. max total bonus of +10, this is nice armor.

Medium
Hide: 3AC is very low for medium armor. Utterly pointless. 7 max dex, most of it is the medium max dex bonus. -3 ACP. Nobody uses it.

Scalemail/Chainmail: They aren't any good as mithral. They are also no good as normal metal.

Breastplate: This is good for a medium-high dex (16) character without the money for mithral full plate, which is damed expensive in comparison.

Mithral Splint mail: 6ac, 2 max dex, ridiculous ACP. Expensive as all hell. Nobody would waste mithral on splint.

Mithral Banded/half-plate: Only marginally better than splint, you still wouldn't waste mithral on it.

Mithral Full Plate: Here is the one medium armor type worth considering. 8 AC is as high as it gets. +3 max dex equals a normal breastplate. ACP is high but manageable. This one gets use, despite being REALLY expensive.

Heavy

Splint/Banded/Half-plate: All utterly worthless, except perhaps as level 1 cheap armor until it gets replaced by better.

Full Plate: If your dexterity is low and you want to wear armor, this is as good as it gets.

[OneWinged4ngel]

I was just looking over the equipment tables, and I was wondering - is it just me, or is medium armor really pretty pointless?

The best light armor (chain shirt) gives +4 AC, with a -2 ACP and full movement. The best medium armor (breasplate) doubles the ACP, decreases movement, blocks any number of "light armor only" class abilities, and gives a single piddling point of extra AC. At least heavy armor goes up to +8.

Yes, medium armor is pointless.

In fact, there is a sum total of 3 armors in the game that actually matter, except for very specific circumstances where you pick something else due to arbitrary class features.

It's a pity, really, because there could totally be dozens of unique, flavorful armors in D&D. Except if they're not Full Plate, Breastplate, or Chain Shirt, they don't matter.

[Talya]

Yes, medium armor is pointless.

In fact, there is a sum total of 3 armors in the game that actually matter, except for very specific circumstances where you pick something else due to arbitrary class features.

It's a pity, really, because there could totally be dozens of unique, flavorful armors in D&D. Except if they're not Full Plate, Breastplate, or Chain Shirt, they don't matter.

There are other special materials that are "non-core" that can make a couple other armors useful. Nightscale leather, spidersilk, etc.

[Anxe]

HEY! I wear Studded leather at level 1! And if I'm a Druid I wear Hide!
There's more than 3 There's five!

I'm a freaking poet.

[Talya]

HEY! I wear Studded leather at level 1! And if I'm a Druid I wear Hide!
There's more than 3 There's five!

I'm a freaking poet.

Leather can be studded with things other than metal.

[Anxe]

Leather can be studded with things other than metal.

Yeah, but those non metal things don't protect as well. And no you cant make a stone stud. That doesnt make any sense.

[Talya]

Yeah, but those non metal things don't protect as well.

Meh. They still give 3ac, +5 max dex bonus. Darkwood (as tough as iron) studs ftw.

[Attilargh]

It's a pity, really, because there could totally be dozens of unique, flavorful armors in D&D. Except if they're not Full Plate, Breastplate, or Chain Shirt, they don't matter.
The same goes for weapons, as well. There is about one exotic weapon that is actually worth the feat, and that's spiked chain. Similarly, many of the martial weapons are utterly useless: The low price of the greatclub, for example, is not nearly enough incentive to pick it up instead of a greatsword or -axe, as they don't cost all that much either.

[Anxe]

There's bastard sword and double sword among the exotic weapons too.

[Conners]

For PCs, an amount of armour does seem pointless. For npcs and monsters however, you mightn't want to give each member of the goblin horde a mithril breastplate.

[Jack_Simth]

I was just looking over the equipment tables, and I was wondering - is it just me, or is medium armor really pretty pointless?

The best light armor (chain shirt) gives +4 AC, with a -2 ACP and full movement. The best medium armor (breasplate) doubles the ACP, decreases movement, blocks any number of "light armor only" class abilities, and gives a single piddling point of extra AC. At least heavy armor goes up to +8.

With the exception of Splint Mail (also, incidentally, the cheapest of the heavy armors), Armor Bonus + Max Dex = 7 (Hide, Scale, Chain, and Half-Plate), 8 (Leather, Studded Leather, Chain Shirt and Breastplate), or 9 (Padded and Fullplate), for all Core mundane armors.

For all Core mundane armors, the following statements hold true:
IF Armor Bonus(armor A) > Armor Bonus(armor B), THEN Price(armor A) >= Price (armor B).
IF Price(armor A) > Price(armor B), THEN Armor Bonus(armor A) >= Armor Bonus(armor B)
IF (Armor Bonus(armor A) == Armor Bonus(armor B)) AND Maximum Dexterity(armor A) > Maximum Dexterity(armor B)) THEN Price(armor A) > Price(Armor B)

In other words, if we arrange the Core mundane armors by price...
{table]Armor|Price|Armor Bonus|Max Dex
Padded|5|1|8
Leather|10|2|6
Hide|15|3|4
Studded Leather|25|3|5
Scale Mail|50|4|3
Chain Shirt|100|4|4
Chain mail|150|5|2
Breastplate|200|5|3
Splint Mail|200|6|0
Banded Mail|250|6|1
Half-Plate|600|7|0
Full Plate|1500|8|1
[/table]
Armor bonus is nondecreasing by price; if two armors have the same armor bonus, the more expensive one will have a better maximum dexterity bonus. About the only time anyone will go for one of the cheaper armors is when money is tight, or when their dex bonus is low enough that the difference doesn't matter. Otherwise, everyone takes the best (for them) armor in a given category - Full Plate for heavy armor, Breastplate for medium armor, and whatever matches your maximum dexterity bonus in the light armors. Special materials modify this - you can't make Mithral Leather armor, but a Mithral Chain Shirt is mostly unambiguously better.

[OneWinged4ngel]

The same goes for weapons, as well. There is about one exotic weapon that is actually worth the feat, and that's spiked chain. Similarly, many of the martial weapons are utterly useless: The low price of the greatclub, for example, is not nearly enough incentive to pick it up instead of a greatsword or -axe, as they don't cost all that much either.

Your sig sums it up.

Dungeons and Dragons: You have a choice of nonsensical options.

[Kurald Galain]

There's bastard sword and double sword among the exotic weapons too.

A double sword? You mean one of those Darth Maul thingies? Fanboyism aside, is that even physically possible without cutting your own legs off?

[....]

The same goes for weapons, as well. There is about one exotic weapon that is actually worth the feat, and that's spiked chain. Similarly, many of the martial weapons are utterly useless: The low price of the greatclub, for example, is not nearly enough incentive to pick it up instead of a greatsword or -axe, as they don't cost all that much either.

Yup, only weapons anyone uses:

Greatsword
Greataxe
Longsword
Comp. Longbow
Comp. Shortbow

Some people may use shortswords, daggers, or rapiers for dual wielding, and may uuse crossbows as casters; but other than that, those weapons see the most usage.

Which is think is a indication of this new, "I win at D&D" mindset that everyone seems to have, where you have to be the most effective, useful, optomized person around.

Personally, I like using weird weapons. Or just ones that add flavor. My swashbucker/rogue used a rapier; but also fought with a whip a lot. I made a barbarian that fought with a club and wore hide armor, just to stand out.

[Citizen Joe]

Personally, I like using weird weapons. Or just ones that add flavor. My swashbucker/rogue used a rapier; but also fought with a whip a lot. I made a barbarian that fought with a club and wore hide armor, just to stand out.

I run with an agricultural load out: Scythe, flail, sickle
Partly due to a farmboy background, but also because farm implements are less suspicious to guards.

[Attilargh]

I admit, I am a bit of a power gamer when it comes to buying equipment. I just can't see why anyone in their right mind would willingly choose an inferior product when it comes to battling monsters.

As an aside: Weapons don't kill monsters, bonus damage does. As a result, I'm not quite as picky about what I hit the goblins with.

[Jack_Simth]

I admit, I am a bit of a power gamer when it comes to buying equipment. I just can't see why anyone in their right mind would willingly choose an inferior product when it comes to battling monsters.

Because if they can squeeze out another 10 gp, they can get that bow, too, and their dex isn't high enough for it to make a difference to their AC.

Mind you, that mostly only applies at 1st...


As an aside: Weapons don't kill monsters, bonus damage does. As a result, I'm not quite as picky about what I hit the goblins with.
Pretty much; the difference between a Greatsword and a Heavy Flail is 1.5 damage per normal hit (and damage type; and 35 gp, and 2 pounds).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Leather can be studded with things other than metal.
That doesn't seem to be recognized by core rules, however:

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor.
Nope. No studded leather.


I run with an agricultural load out: Scythe, flail, sickle
Partly due to a farmboy background, but also because farm implements are less suspicious to guards.
Depending on the context. I mean, you're supposed to have already harvested your crops before you bring them to the City Square on Market Day. Do you still need your Scythe with you then?

And, if you're an adventurer, your armor and other gear will probably give away that you're not a farmer, so the farming implements look odd anyway. "Hey, Farmer Joe, why the full plate?"

And don't weaponized flails at least have a few distinctive differences from the standard farming flail?

In any case, I think most campaigns use a world where there are enough Adventurer types carrying around weapons that it doesn't raise an eye in most localities. Usually, there are only a few municipalities with a large enough guard to defend its boarders without help from the riff raff that have policies that make openly carrying weapons difficult. That's my experience, anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

Yup, only weapons anyone uses:

Greatsword
Greataxe
Longsword
Comp. Longbow
Comp. Shortbow

Some people may use shortswords, daggers, or rapiers for dual wielding, and may uuse crossbows as casters; but other than that, those weapons see the most usage.
The punching dagger sees a lot of use around my parts. 20/x3 crit on a simple, light finesse weapon? Yes, please.

[Zaeron]

That doesn't seem to be recognized by core rules, however:

Nope. No studded leather.

This is incorrect. Sort of.

Ironwood or Darkwood or whatever the heck it's called (my DMG is not to hand and I do not normally play druids) is a wooden substance that has all the same properties as metal and can be carved into armor. Thus, druids are capable of wearing any light or medium armor that has had the metal portions replaced with this wood. It is even possible for druids to take the heavy armor proficiency feat and wear full plate, either using the wood or using dragonscale armor or something similar.

So yes. Druids are incapable of using standard studded leather armor. However, it is certainly possible for them to wear it, given the correct materials.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So yes. Druids are incapable of using standard studded leather armor. However, it is certainly possible for them to wear it, given the correct materials.
Well, the point is: In the abscence of these Extra-Special Materials or appropriate spellwork, studded leather is considered by RAW to have only metallic studs.

[Ulzgoroth]

Longspear
Morning star
Sling

Not everyone has martial proficiencies. And of course you've ignored martial reach weapons, thrown weapons, backup bludgeoning for things with damage type DR, the dwarven waraxe, and the falcion of critting-all-the-time. At least. Oh, I forgot the sap...you may never use it, but the rogue ought to carry one.

There is a difference between light and heavy armor besides the proficiencies of certain PC classes. The run multiplier counts for something. Running 80 is a useful capability sometimes. Running 60...not as much. At least you can keep up with the wizard and rogue's hustle.:smalltongue:

Specific armors:
Padded: Not for PCs, unless a wizard is willing to take the 5% spell failure. An average commoner's equipment budget, though, is 125 SP. That will cover either leather and a club, or padded and a longspear. The longspears win.

Hide: PCs probably don't need those 10 GP that badly. NPCs might, or even more might not have access to the materials for the studs. It's not an unreasonable successor to leather in the primitive inventory.

Scale:The ideal protection for budget-limited dwarven tanks (and probably non-dwarven also) who can't swing chainmail. Which they will upgrade to before level 2 and like it, since they aren't likely to have 16 dex. Unless they go for splint or banded. Also good for level 1 warriors.

Halfplate: If you have dexterity, its silly. If you don't, it's very useful even to level 3.

[Talya]

Well, the point is: In the abscence of these Extra-Special Materials or appropriate spellwork, studded leather is considered by RAW to have only metallic studs.

This is not outside RAW. You're simply not factoring in special materials that are part of RAW/SRD.

As half of this thread mentions Mithral armors, that's not really fair.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

This is not outside RAW. You're simply not factoring in special materials that are part of RAW/SRD.
The RAW says druids cannot wear metallic armor, therefore druids cannot wear studded leather. (The part I quoted).

The RAW then says you can use non-metallic special materials to replace metallic armor in certain places.

I'm not denying the second part about special materials. All I'm saying is that without special materials, studded leather is metallic by virtue of the first statement. The first statement denies the use of non-metallic studs made with mundane materials.

[Talya]

All I'm saying is that without special materials, studded leather is metallic by virtue of the first statement. The first statement denies the use of non-metallic studs made with mundane materials.


This is true. However, Darkwood is far cheaper than other special materials we take for granted, like Mithral, and there's not all that much mass to the few studs inside studded leather. Let's face it, if a druid wants darkwood-studded leather armor at level 1, she can probably have it, for the less than 10 gold worth of darkwood it would use. (Oh, and the masterwork costs.)

[Kioran]

The problematic is that while many options are flavorful and I know I should, at least sometimes, make sacrifices for the sake of my Character concept (that is, the one I have beforehand, unlike the one that is built retroactively to justify the Metagame-targeted Min/Max --> Formwind Stallacy), I´m not willing to go beyond some boundaries.
Yes, I´ll take a hit or two for my concept (-1,5 average Damage on a two-handed weapon isn´t that bad......), but I´m not willing to take a boot to the face. AC is the one most equipment dependent variable in the game, and you can´t afford to lose much of it since it will hurt quite literally and immediately.
And that is why Nobody would ever take hide armor, or in fact anything other than the light armors, Breatplate (only Mithral) or Full Plate (in all it´s guises, as a dwarf you´re slow and smelly anyway). Which sad actually, and besides, makes medium armor pointless - nobody uses just for it´s own sake. Would be different it the run modifier went down first, before the move speed, but that´s kinda utopian.

That´s why I recommend, to any DM who loves himself some nice gear and emphasis on weapon and armor selection, to tweak existing weapons, especially those who are entirely pointless (Kama? Identical to sickle. Why, oh why, is it exotic? Well, mine has better crits....) or nonsensical (Why does Half-Plate have less of a max-Dex bonus? I use the Oriental adventures O-Yoroi with 7/2).

[Ulzgoroth]

Um, quite seriously the set of character concepts that would deliberately use inferior armor is very small, so that isn't so much of an issue.

The kama exists only for monks. They get proficiency free, and it falls in the special monk weapon category. It's exotic to keep other people from using it, not because anyone imagines it's worth the feat to use. This is stupid, but hey...monk.

Half Plate has a lower dex bonus because its structure is a suit of chainmail with many supplementary plates hung off it, rather than an exoskeleton of fitted plates as Full Plate. That's what I get from the PHB...historical accuracy I haven't a clue.

[Citizen Joe]

I like to think that breastplate->half plate->full plate is more of a partial armor sort of situation. So, you should be able to incorporate you existing breastplate into a set of half-plate. And then the final upgrade to full plate includes those last little bits plus the customizing bill.

It used to be leather armor, chain mail, plate mail. I think that was way back in basic/expert dnd. First edition introduced padded, studded, hide, banded, and splint mails. 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana introduced cavaliers and their armor of choice, field and full plate armour. Those basically had DR. Throughout 1st edition, weapons had a huge table which gave certain benefits/penalties to hit certain armor classes. I think oriental adventures (1st ed.) introduced partial/piecemeal armour. I think that was the precursor for the breastplate/half-plate/fullplate of 3.5.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You are right, the only Medium armor worth wearing is Mithral Full Plate. Other than that, just use a Chain Shirt (or Mithral if you have high enough Dex or want the reduction in ASF).

Druids don't need armor. Druids have Wildshape and can get stupid Natural Armor, then grab Bracers of Armor (or a friendly arcane caster with Mage Armor) to stack on top.

[Leon]

Druids don't need armor. Druids have Wildshape and can get stupid Natural Armor, then grab Bracers of Armor (or a friendly arcane caster with Mage Armor) to stack on top.

Druids dont need wildshape ethier

[TheOOB]

Medium armor might mean more if a)mithral didn't exist, and b)the difference between a chain shirt and a breastplate was more the 1 AC. As it stands if you are going for medium armor, you might as well skip straight to heavy if you can afford it.

[Kantolin]

Huh.

While the longsword's popular amongst my group. This is because the majority of them prefer the fairly iconic 'I has a sword' fighter-type. But the Battleaxe and Warhammer are about the same as a sword (19-20/X2 is about the same as a 20/X3), and Dwarves should almost certainly go for their Dwarven Waraxe over a longsword. Then Flails see use when it's trip-time, and crit-happy rogues tend to go... well, Rapier, and hardly anyone uses scimitars, but that's again a flavor thing over mechanics.

Honestly, in the one-handed weapon category, I see the majority of them useful mechanically. The only one that kind of falls flat is the trident: 10ft throwing increments vs critting on a 19. Still, it's piercing instead of slashing, and I frequently go with it myself as it's unique. But overall, I do think one-handers are selected for style or because longswords tend to be iconic, and not for mechanical reasons.

Armour, now... peh, everyone's pretty much gone through it: Most armour-types suck.

Another note is on wooden vs metallic shields. At levels above 1, nobody cares about the additional 6 or 13gp to make your shield metal, but honestly now: Would you like to spend additional money to make your shield have more hardness for that one-in-a-million moment when the enemy is using sunder, or just get a wooden one and stick with it? The only difference is flavor (Which, interestingly, tends to be why I myself go with metal most of the time).

The single method I've seen of getting someone to use armours that aren't the particularly ideal variety is to essentially 'drop' enchanted armour that's not Full Plate, Breasptlate, or Chain Shirt.

I mean, if your choices are +1 Half Plate, or go find the extra money to go find full plate, most people will go for the half plate that's sitting in their laps.

But eh. Chainmail gets use at level 1 for being only 50gp, at least.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, is anyone familiar with the armor table in Hackmaster? :smalltongue:

[Dhavaer]

Add Glaives to the list of frequently used weapons. Especially popular with Duskblades, for some reason.

Shadowsilk armour is pretty good if you have a very high Dex as well. Padded can get you up to +11 AC, although getting +10 Dex might be a stretch.

[Kioran]

Um, quite seriously the set of character concepts that would deliberately use inferior armor is very small, so that isn't so much of an issue.

Well yes, certainly. Few people would deliberately use inferior Armor. That is my point. But maybe people would want to use Hide Armor or Scale Mail if they didn´t suck. Sadly, except for 6 Armors (all light, Brestplate, Full Plate), all suck. There´s no point in them existing....which is sad.
Especially the topic, medium armor, is simply too bad to use it for RP-reasons. Some mechanical disadvantages, yes. But no matter how much I like my feral touch as a barbarian, I won´t gimp myself.


The kama exists only for monks. They get proficiency free, and it falls in the special monk weapon category. It's exotic to keep other people from using it, not because anyone imagines it's worth the feat to use. This is stupid, but hey...monk.

Yes, but why call it "Kama" if it is, in any aspect, totally identical with a sickle? Why not give monks proficiency with a friggin sickle? Both are tools, and actually relatively similiar in purpose, so why have totally redundant weapons? That baffles me.
So if the kama has to be a distinct weapon, it should at least be sufficiently different in mechanics or flavor. And since right now, it´s so weak monks don´t even have reason to draw it (it doesn´t do more damge, has the same crits - apart from fighting Zombies, there´s nothing it does better), buffing the crits seems a nice way of doing this, and also making the weapon attractive enough, say, to be actually worth a feat.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, but why call it "Kama" if it is, in any aspect, totally identical with a sickle? Why not give monks proficiency with a friggin sickle?

Because sickle-a-me-ha sounds stupid? :smallbiggrin:

[Shas aia Toriia]

While we're on the subject of armor, does anybody use adamantite (sp?)?

[Awetugiw]

Not for armor. From some point on pretty much any weapon is adamantine, but for armors mithral is usually more useful.

Sure, you get DR of up to 3/-, but it costs way too much for that. At the level you can afford it, monsters will be doing like 50 damage per hit. Just use the 15K to get an extra +1 on your armor or something.

[Crow]

Well yes, certainly. Few people would deliberately use inferior Armor. That is my point. But maybe people would want to use Hide Armor or Scale Mail if they didn´t suck. Sadly, except for 6 Armors (all light, Brestplate, Full Plate), all suck. There´s no point in them existing....which is sad.
Especially the topic, medium armor, is simply too bad to use it for RP-reasons. Some mechanical disadvantages, yes. But no matter how much I like my feral touch as a barbarian, I won´t gimp myself.



Yes, but why call it "Kama" if it is, in any aspect, totally identical with a sickle? Why not give monks proficiency with a friggin sickle? Both are tools, and actually relatively similiar in purpose, so why have totally redundant weapons? That baffles me.
So if the kama has to be a distinct weapon, it should at least be sufficiently different in mechanics or flavor. And since right now, it´s so weak monks don´t even have reason to draw it (it doesn´t do more damge, has the same crits - apart from fighting Zombies, there´s nothing it does better), buffing the crits seems a nice way of doing this, and also making the weapon attractive enough, say, to be actually worth a feat.

The reason is because back in 3.0 when monks had a better rate of iterative attacks while unarmed, the kama was one of the weapons which stated that a monk could use it and still receive the favorable number of attacks.

[Kaelik]

The reason is because back in 3.0 when monks had a better rate of iterative attacks while unarmed, the kama was one of the weapons which stated that a monk could use it and still receive the favorable number of attacks.

Right, put in 3.0 weren't monk fists better then kama's? Just as they are now?

[bosssmiley]

While we're on the subject of armor, does anybody use adamantite (sp?)?

Only if I'm playing a Clankforged with the intent of going Juggernaut. :smallamused:

Adamantine seems to be handier for weapons (ignore hardness? yes please!) than for armour...

[Crow]

Right, put in 3.0 weren't monk fists better then kama's? Just as they are now?

Yeah but it was one of those things to give the monk a chance when the DM started throwing zombies (or other DR monsters) at you. Remember back in the day it wasn't DR/magic, it was DR/+1, +2, +3...etc...

The monk's fists might not be "enchanted" enough yet, but you could certainly enchant a kama.

[Kioran]

While we're on the subject of armor, does anybody use adamantite (sp?)?

I´d use it for some dwarfen tanks - You´re slow and smelly anyway, that´s when the DR might be a nice touch. But yeah, generally, Mithral is better, and even cheaper......simply because it grants more AC (through the dex-bonus), while Adamantine armor brings a DR that doesn´t (correct me if I´m wrong) stack.

So one is useful earlier on because you can afford it, and stays useful for a long time, while adamantine armor is really only useful for some time around mid-levels before your Barbarian or Dwarven Defender levels give you DR anyways - almost all classes and PrCs for Tanks/Meat shields can get DR sooner or later anyways....

[Ulzgoroth]

Well yes, certainly. Few people would deliberately use inferior Armor. That is my point. But maybe people would want to use Hide Armor or Scale Mail if they didn´t suck. Sadly, except for 6 Armors (all light, Brestplate, Full Plate), all suck. There´s no point in them existing....which is sad.
Especially the topic, medium armor, is simply too bad to use it for RP-reasons. Some mechanical disadvantages, yes. But no matter how much I like my feral touch as a barbarian, I won´t gimp myself.
I invoke realism. Some armors really are inferior, and that's all there is to it. A heavy suit of hides is about the crudest, weakest excuse for 'heavy' armor possible, and performs accordingly. Scale mail existed because it was enormously easier to make than chainmail (and may have needed less advanced metal-working), not because anyone imagined it was superior... (According to wikipedia, it actually provided better protection against bludgeoning attacks. Interesting.) Splint mail, as a complete armor type, seems to be entirely imaginary, but certainly would have found its main virtues in ease of production, not quality.

Most of the armors in the PHB have uses. The problem is that all but the best-of-class armors rely mostly on cost or availability, and the cost of mundane items becomes trivial fairly quickly for PCs.

The reason is because back in 3.0 when monks had a better rate of iterative attacks while unarmed, the kama was one of the weapons which stated that a monk could use it and still receive the favorable number of attacks.
Kind of like how in 3.5 flurry of blows can use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, which includes the kama?

[Leon]

the pinicle of Armour materials would be Obdurium

[Person_Man]

A barbarian can wear mithral full plate (medium armor) and still get the bonus of Fast Movement. So there's a reason for it to exist.


Yup, only weapons anyone uses:

Greatsword
Greataxe
Longsword
Comp. Longbow
Comp. Shortbow


Other weapons I see a lot:

Lance: Easiest way to multiply damage in the game, and its a reach weapon.

Guisarme: A reach weapon with the Trip ability. Most people I play with think that the Spiked Chain is a waste of a feat. Given the existence of Knock-Down and the 5 ft. step, you almost never need to attack someone standing adjacent to you.

Quarterstaff: I have no idea why, but every game someone uses a quarterstaff.

[Chronos]

Quarterstaff: I have no idea why, but every game someone uses a quarterstaff.Well, the wizards at least. It fits flavor-wise, a wiz isn't going to blow a feat on a better weapon, and even if e does, e's still going to be pretty pathetic with it. And at low levels, at least, there will be times when the wizard runs out of spells, and whacking something with a big stick is better than just standing there doing nothing at all.

There's just no excuse for splint mail, though. It shouldn't be any easier to make than banded, and it makes a lot more sense to make the armor bend the same way the human body does.

[Roderick_BR]

Yeah, but those non metal things don't protect as well. And no you cant make a stone stud. That doesnt make any sense.
Races of Stone have a Stone Armor. Pretty weird.
Also, Sword & Fist (3.0) had a full plate made of wood and hardened with the IronWood spell. A DM could allow the wood be DarkWood, that mimics some of the mithral's effects.

Edit: Heavy armor (not exotic). AC +6, Max Dex +1, ACP -7, ASF 30%, Speed 20ft/15ft, Weight 35lb.. The description says that a druid can use it without problem.

[Ulzgoroth]

There's just no excuse for splint mail, though. It shouldn't be any easier to make than banded, and it makes a lot more sense to make the armor bend the same way the human body does.
Well, according to wikipedia no one ever made splint body armor (as opposed to splint-mail arm and leg protection augmenting other forms of body armor). But I could see it being easier to make than banded armor. It looks like you just take a suit of leather/chain composite and rivet vertical strips of metal to it to create a rigid pseudo-plate. Together, the pseudo-plate pieces largely replicate a half-plate. Almost makes sense, though I'd think the gaps between 'splints' would cause problems.

Banded armor doesn't call for too much more in the way of complex (or large-scale) metalwork, but it does have to be built so that all those bands can move as intended. I've no real idea how hard that is, but it seems like it has potential to justify that extra 50 GP.

[Indon]

Quarterstaff: I have no idea why, but every game someone uses a quarterstaff.

Well, quarterstaves are the only simple non-exotic double weapon in the PHB.

Edit: And, personally, I view the biggest advantage of the Spiked Chain as a Great Cleave weapon to mow down mooks. 2-handed charging damage against as many zombies/goblins/whatever you can hit? Okay.

[the_tick_rules]

well remember D&D is about reflecting history and these armors existed, i think this forum is far to obsessed with power gaming. D&D is about more than creating a character for nothing than maximum lethality.

[Setra]

well remember D&D is about reflecting history and this armors existed, i think this forum is far to obsessed with power gaming. D&D is about more than creating a character for nothing than maximum lethality.
But taking a hit in AC means you might lose said character.

Or something like that.

[Chronos]

But I could see it being easier to make than banded armor. It looks like you just take a suit of leather/chain composite and rivet vertical strips of metal to it to create a rigid pseudo-plate.By the same token, you could make banded by riveting on horizontal strips. Sure, it'll be less flexible than the leather by itself (which is why it has a higher ACP and worse dex bonus, in-game), but what flexibility it has will be in the right direction. Rigidity isn't so much an asset for armor, as a tradeoff to closing all of the gaps.

[Ralfarius]

well remember D&D is about reflecting history and this armors existed
This statement is somewhat erroneous. The big problem with 'reflecting history' in armor, is that most of these types (at least, the ones that did exist) weren't really in usage in the same periods. It wasn't really 'you go out and pick up the best kind of armor you can afford'. It was closer to you being in employ of someone who could purchase you the state-of-the-art protection, or you just didn't have armor.

The reason people fall away from the 'flavour' of armor and such, is that D&D does a sub par job of really emphasizing how effective historically-reflective set ups were. I mean, really - a shield is like a chunk of wall that keeps pointy sharp things away from you. You'd be more safe really knowing well how to use a shield and sword than putting on some mail armor, because the safest place for a weapon to make contact is a piece of wood that's a good foot away from your soft, fleshy body.

Someone in a dangerous profession (i.e. adventurer) will want the best protection available. It doesn't do said adventurer any good if he likes the way scale armor looks on him when a chain shirt of breastplate will do a considerably better job of keeping him alive.

If the system made the unwanted armors equally desirable to their highly sought-after counterparts, then there would be reasonable room for taking armor based on flavour. Unfortunately, the current system just simplifies armor to a set of three roll-adjusting stats, and that makes it difficult to give practical alternatives to the preferred armour selections.

[Ulzgoroth]

By the same token, you could make banded by riveting on horizontal strips. Sure, it'll be less flexible than the leather by itself (which is why it has a higher ACP and worse dex bonus, in-game), but what flexibility it has will be in the right direction. Rigidity isn't so much an asset for armor, as a tradeoff to closing all of the gaps.
Maybe you could, but I think that the banded armor we have is a bit more ambitious than that. Both the graphic and the description in the PHB indicate that the strips overlap, and it seems as if they're intended to claim the virtues of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_segmentata). Which requires them to move over each other. Otherwise, overlapped strips of metal would produce something essentially rigid anyway.

Rigidity is an asset to some degree. Chainmail alone makes cutting injuries unlikely, and has gaps fine enough that few weapons could hope to stab through them. Rigidity reduces the impact damage of non-penetrating blows by distributing the shock. It's also a common attribute across most of the D&D armors...even leather has a stiffened cuirass, and breastplates and all the heavy armors incorporate large, necessarily inflexible plates or strips of metal.

It appears to me that the splint mail somewhat simplifies a suit of (half-)plate and then replaces plates (which are difficult to produce) with metal strips on leather backing. These 'plates' aren't meant to be flexible at all, but have flexible leather or chain between them to allow movement.

[OneWinged4ngel]

well remember D&D is about reflecting history and these armors existed.

Completely untrue. D&D armors are *very* historically inaccurate.

No, studded leather did NOT exist. Adding studs to leather armor does absolutely NOTHING to keep you better protected against attacks. It's probably based off of a brigandine. Which is a totally different thing and the studs and leather aren't the main source of protection (the stuff UNDER it is.)

((A brigandine's appearance demonstrates how one might think it is simply leather with studs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Brigfront.jpg . Of course, anyone trying for anything remotely near accuracy wouldn't just glance at an armor to give it a name.))

Scale mail, also, did NOT exist. Scale armor, however, does (and that armor is most definitely NOT mail).

Heck, splint armor seems a bit out of place, too. As far as I know, it was mostly used for vambraces and greaves, while it was rarely if ever used as a primary form of armor.

There is nothing historically modelling about D&D. And there's nothing balanced or well-designed about the armor system. There are 3, and only 3, armors that actually matter in the game (except in the case of arbitrary class restrictions and the first like, 2 levels where you can't afford most of the armor choices), and that just plain sucks. There is potential for dozens and dozens of unique and flavorful armors in D&D. We're stuck with a very limited base set, and only 3 of those are even worth considering. And that sucks. A lot.

[WhiteHarness]

Heck, splint armor seems a bit out of place, too. As far as I know, it was mostly used for vambraces and greaves, while it was rarely if ever used as a primary form of armor.

I don't know...

I'd label as "Splint Mail" those styles of Coats of Plates that feature an exclusively vertical arrangement of plates--e.g., the "St. Maurice" CoP, the Wisby type II, etc...

[Dausuul]

There is nothing historically modelling about D&D. And there's nothing balanced or well-designed about the armor system. There are 3, and only 3, armors that actually matter in the game (except in the case of arbitrary class restrictions and the first like, 2 levels where you can't afford most of the armor choices), and that just plain sucks. There is potential for dozens and dozens of unique and flavorful armors in D&D. We're stuck with a very limited base set, and only 3 of those are even worth considering. And that sucks. A lot.

Agreed. The D&D armors were balanced on the presumption that the base price of the armor would actually matter. How they could possibly imagine that to be the case, given the price of even low-level magic items and the WBL tables, is beyond me... the only armor whose price makes any difference past level 1 is full plate, and even that soon pales next to the cost of the magic gear PCs need.

As regards powergaming, I find it very hard to imagine a character concept that requires, say, half plate as opposed to full plate, or chain mail as opposed to a chain shirt. Unless you have a really weird character concept that somehow demands such gear, picking a sub-optimal armor and claiming this makes you a better roleplayer is Stormwind Fallacy at its worst.

While I recognize that some armors were in fact better than others historically, I don't think it makes sense to have that fact reflected in the standard armor list; throw in some rules for "cheap low-grade mook armor" and leave it at that. The way things stand, most of the armors on the list are just traps for newbies who assume there must be a good reason to buy half plate or it wouldn't be on the list...

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It'd be cool if they seperated a full plate into it's many portions and you could equip however many parts of it you wanted. A historical full plate will include not just the plates, but typically a chainmail hauberk, a chain hood, a lot of padding, and in many cases leather armor as well. Basically, it practically encompasses everything in the list before it outside of scale armor, and as mentioned just a moment ago, that stuff's inaccurate anyway.

I'm thinking of redesigning this myself now.

[Citizen Joe]

If you presuppose that a chain shirt is just part of chainmail armor, then you can strip off part of the chainmail and sleep with just the chain shirt. Thus you get most of your armor bonus if you get jumped in the night.

Until you get into mythral armors, the breast plate is all or nothing as far as sleeping AC goes. Mythral breastplate would be the reduced plate armor situation for sleeping. Or, you could just get Endurance feat and not worry about either.

So, my justification for chainmail then becomes: If you are away from the safety of a city (for sleeping) then you need to be partially armored.

[Dausuul]

I'm thinking of redesigning this myself now.

I came up with a system once for balancing armors. I think it was something like this... every armor has a point value, according to the following rules:

Armor bonus: +1 value per point of armor bonus
Max Dex bonus: +1 value per point up to max Dex +2, +0.5 value per point beyond that
Armor check penalty: -0.5 value per point of armor check penalty

Light armors have a point value of 5, medium armors have a point value of 7, heavy armors have a point value of 8. Armor check penalties should not exceed -2 for light, -4 for medium, or -6 for heavy armor.

So, for instance, a chain shirt might have +3 armor bonus (+3 value), +4 max Dex bonus (+3 value), and -2 armor check penalty (-1 value). Full plate might have +9 armor bonus (+9 value), +2 max Dex bonus (+2 value), and -6 armor check penalty (-3 value).

[Fhaolan]

No, studded leather did NOT exist. Adding studs to leather armor does absolutely NOTHING to keep you better protected against attacks. It's probably based off of a brigandine. Which is a totally different thing and the studs and leather aren't the main source of protection (the stuff UNDER it is.)

*blink* Errrr.... I think you're focusing on Medieval European armor a bit much. Most of the armors you mention were from the Ancient world (Roman, Greek, Persia), as well as Medieval India and China.

For example, studded armor was rarely made of leather, true, but it did exist. These were not tiny little rivets spaced out on the backing material. This was 1" or so disks attached to heavy cloth (something like canvas or duckcloth), spaced so that they were all touching one another, creating a flexible sheet of metal.


Scale mail, also, did NOT exist. Scale armor, however, does (and that armor is most definitely NOT mail).

Scale is scale. However there are three basic forms of scale. The most common was hardened leather scales sewn to a backing material. The next was metal scales sewn to a backing material. There was, however, a relatively rare form or Roman armor, known as Lorenca Plumata, which was scales being woven into a maille backing.


Heck, splint armor seems a bit out of place, too. As far as I know, it was mostly used for vambraces and greaves, while it was rarely if ever used as a primary form of armor.

I've seen splints rivited onto a maille shirt once in a museum. It was Persian, and the strips of metal did not overlap like it would for banded.

There is nothing historically modelling about D&D. And there's nothing balanced or well-designed about the armor system. There are 3, and only 3, armors that actually matter in the game (except in the case of arbitrary class restrictions and the first like, 2 levels where you can't afford most of the armor choices), and that just plain sucks. There is potential for dozens and dozens of unique and flavorful armors in D&D. We're stuck with a very limited base set, and only 3 of those are even worth considering. And that sucks. A lot.[/QUOTE]

[Chris_Chandler]

Medium armor does, indeed get the worst of both worlds, that is, the worst of light and heavy armors. They recieve poor armor bonii and then are forced to slow characters down. They do have some fair returns in the right circumstances:

Druids can't wear studded leather, which is, in all ways, better than hide. Druids can wear hide, and until 5th level, I know of plenty that do so, especially if said druid is taking a secondary tanking role. Hide+Large wooden shield + shillelagh infused club = good times.

The price is right. Hide and Scale are cheap. Heck, chainmail is reasonable. I completely understand that this is a non-issue after, oh, say level 2-3, but it is still there (this is, honestly, a bit of a weakness in both the WBL and item creation rules, but that's another argument). Characters don't really have the opportunity to insta-upgrade their gear whenever the cash reaches x amount of gp. Holding onto that set of masterwork scale you recovered from a horde might actually be a better investment than the mundane breastplate you could trade for it, if you are holding out for something even better down the road.

Dwarves don't care. Medium armor is made for dwarves, period. They aren't affected by the main reason players balk at medium armor. "This stuff only protects as well as studded leather, but it's going to slow me down! I'll take my chances without." Dwarves are not hindered by this, at all. Chainmail, honestly not a great choice, is decent when worn by a dwarf. Likewise, Dwarves can get exotic armor proficiency, to which there are a handful of good medium choices. Mind you, the tendency is just to shoot straight for ultra-heavy armors once a dwarf goes down this path, but the outlet is still there.

Special materials help out. Darkwood and mithril are, of course, the common paths, investing some hard-earned coin to get that breastplate respectable. Dropping mithril on some full-plate knocks it into barbarian range, as well, a nice medium-armor loophole.

[OneWinged4ngel]

For example, studded armor was rarely made of leather, true, but it did exist. These were not tiny little rivets spaced out on the backing material. This was 1" or so disks attached to heavy cloth (something like canvas or duckcloth), spaced so that they were all touching one another, creating a flexible sheet of metal. I'm aware of that, but that's not what Studded Leather in D&D is. Studded leather as presented in D&D is something completely imagined that serves no purpouse greater than standard leather. If leather armor has studs, it's decorational. Little tiny studs will not help protect you from anything.

_______

Anywho, the problem with armor is that there is ALWAYS a "best" choice for any given character. They don't have differring, unique benefits. For example, even if you balanced an armor to have +2 max dex and +6 armor, and another that's +8 armor with +0 max dex, that just means the guy with +2 dex will always want the +6 armor, and the guy with a dex penalty well always take the +8. So, differring on these things alone is always going to result in the "best armor for you" problem.

The problem is that there's no choice, at all. There is no indecision. There is one best armor for your character. If you're a wizard, it's probably that zero ASF Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. If you're a dwarf, it's full plate. If you're a druid, it's probably dragonhide full plate. If you're a rogue, it's a mithral or darkleaf breastplate. If you're a psion, it's either the highest light armor thing you can get without an armor check penalty (say, a darkleaf breastplate of nimbleness) or full plate. That's just how it goes. D&D presents an armor system where one choice is best, and that sucks.

As I always say... "When you can feel the indecision, that's balance, right there." When there's one clear decision, that's crappy game design, and we want to actually have some worthwhile choices for our characters.

If you want to fix armor, armor needs to have different and unique benefits from each other so that a character of X class will actually weigh the benefits and drawbacks of Armor A and Armor B and Armor C against each other critically, as opposed to immediately seeing "Hey, Armor A is obviously better than every other armor as clearly as 8>5"

[ForzaFiori]

no, Medium armor is not the best.
however, if i'm in a game where i wanna really get into the feel of my character, i may suit him up in some medium armor, and a different weapon than what is considered "the best".

one of my favorite weapons right now actually is a spear. not sure why (except that i play psions, and its one of the best weapons they can wield). I'll usually powergame armor wise, but there have been times when i didn't.

on the Kama: while closely related to a sickle, it is slightly different. However, it shouldn't have been made a separate weapon (although it is a sweet weapon IRL. it is severely taken down in DnD

[Dausuul]

Dwarves don't care. Medium armor is made for dwarves, period. They aren't affected by the main reason players balk at medium armor. "This stuff only protects as well as studded leather, but it's going to slow me down! I'll take my chances without." Dwarves are not hindered by this, at all. Chainmail, honestly not a great choice, is decent when worn by a dwarf. Likewise, Dwarves can get exotic armor proficiency, to which there are a handful of good medium choices. Mind you, the tendency is just to shoot straight for ultra-heavy armors once a dwarf goes down this path, but the outlet is still there.

Eh, I still don't understand why you would get medium but not heavy armor as a dwarf.

D&D has reasons to wear light armor (faster movement) and heavy armor (high AC). Neither reason applies to medium armor. Dwarves lack the reason to wear light armor, but that doesn't give them a reason to wear medium armor; it just means all dwarves put on heavy armor as soon as they can afford it, unless they're arcane casters (in which case they wear mage armor) or are worried about armor check penalty (in which case they wear masterwork or mithral light armor).