What LA would you give this

[Hunterx]

As I was looking threw stuff I found that there are 2 different sets of stats for a half celestial char the first one has it as a LA 4 and the second has it as a CR 1 bit nothing about a LA I have looked it over and the second one is a lot less powerful then the first but it is still strong. The second set of stats comes from Forgotten Realms and this is the template.

Creating A Half-Celestial
"Half-celestial" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and non-evil alignment (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature's type changes to "outsider." It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Speed: There is a 75% chance that a half-celestial has feathered wings. The
creature can fly at twice the base creature's normal speed (good maneuverability).

AC: Natural armor improves by +1.

Special Attacks: A half-celestial retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the supernatural ability to use light at will as the spell. Half-celestials with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher possess the following spell-like abilities, using their level as the caster level, as specified in the table below. Unless otherwise indicated, the ability is usable once per day
Level
Abilities
1-2 Protection from evil 3/day, bless
3-4 Aid, detect evil
5-6 Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison
7-8 Holy smite, remove disease
9-10 Dispel evil
11-12 Holy word
13-14 Holy aura 3/day, hallow
15-16 Symbol
17-18 Summon monster IX (celestials only)
19+ Resurrection

Special Qualities: A half-celestial has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus low-light vision. Half-celestials are immune to acid, cold, disease, and electricity and gain a +4 racial bonus to Fortitude saves against poison.

Saves: Same as the base creature

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4.

Skills: A half-celestial has 8 skill points, plus its Intelligence modifier, per Hit Die. Treat skills from the base creature's list as class skills and other skills as cross-class. If the creature has a class, it gains skills for class levels normally.
Feats: Half-celestials have one feat for every four levels or the base creature's total of feats, whichever is greater.

Climate/Terrain: Same as either the base creature or the celestial

Organization: Same as the base creature

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1
Alignment: Always good (any)

[Thurbane]

I'd eyeball it as around LA +3 or LA +4 by WotC standards, or high LA +2/low LA +1 by Playground standards.

[Rendakor]

Compared to the 3.5 Half-Celestial, the one posted seems to be dropping Smite Evil and Damage Reduction but upgrading the 10 Resistance to Acid/Cold/Electricity into flat immunities. 3 Energy immunities seem better than DR 10/magic and a 1/day attack, so I would say at a minimum LA +4, same as core.

The 75% chance to have wings just seems like bad design; either all of them should have wings, or there should be an option to gain wings but lose some other feature (or increase the LA).

[Goaty14]

Erm, LA +2 or +3. Those ability scores + wings can't possibly mean +1. EDIT: LA +3. That it gets immunity to 3/5 of elemental resistances (force nonwithstanding) is a real eye-opener.

[Zanos]

+20 to ability scores, 3 energy immunities, and double land speed good flight? I'm comfortable at a +3. About as strong as the base one, but most templates are a little overcosted.

[Troacctid]

That's just the 3.0 version of the template. Same as in the 3.0 version of the Monster Manual. The old one is defunct now that it's been updated; you want the 3.5 version.

Personally, I like half-celestial at +2 LA, where Book of Exalted Deeds put it. That's the price point where my builds will strongly consider taking it, but it isn't a no-brainer. I could also get behind a 3-level template class.

[Knaight]

If you're trying to get it to be balanced with other played characters using LA 0 races, +3. If you're trying to get it to fit with WotC material, +8 or so.

[Thurbane]

The 75% chance to have wings just seems like bad design; either all of them should have wings, or there should be an option to gain wings but lose some other feature (or increase the LA).

Yeah, I hear you. A similar wonky mechanic is used for Unseelie Fey, where sometimes you get wings, sometimes you don't.... :smallannoyed:

[Hunterx]

Compared to the 3.5 Half-Celestial, the one posted seems to be dropping Smite Evil and Damage Reduction but upgrading the 10 Resistance to Acid/Cold/Electricity into flat immunities. 3 Energy immunities seem better than DR 10/magic and a 1/day attack, so I would say at a minimum LA +4, same as core.

The 75% chance to have wings just seems like bad design; either all of them should have wings, or there should be an option to gain wings but lose some other feature (or increase the LA).

you lose daylight spell as well

[Rendakor]

you lose daylight spell as well

Oh yea, they just get light instead which is a bit of a nerf. Doesn't change my assessment.

[Hunterx]

Looking at the dates this is not a 3.0 version it says that it is of 2018 which means that FR has a different celestial marker. but if we look at half celestial and the saint template.

gain wisdom to AC
special attack Holy word holy touch
deal 1d6 extra damage against evil
1d8 vs undead and evil outsiders

any evil creature that strikes the saint takes damage as if they have been hit by the saints weapons

spell like abilities: guidance resistance virtue and bless

damage reduction: max 10/evil

fast healing: each round heal equal to half hit dice to a max of 10 per round

immune to: cold acid electricity and petrify

keen vision

protective aura: can cast a double strength magic circle against evil and as a lesser globe of invulnerability, cast as a cleric of the saints HD

resistance 10 fire +4 vs poison

tongues

stat mods: +2 con +2 wis +4 cha

LA 2

now looking at this I would say that this is on par if not stronger then the half celestial but it is a LA 2 sure the HC gets some more spells and maybe flight and a few more stat points but to lose a extra level or even 2 levels for that I do not think so. but what so they the playground

[Troacctid]

Looking at the dates this is not a 3.0 version it says that it is of 2018 which means that FR has a different celestial marker. but if we look at half celestial and the saint template.
...What book are you looking at? There hasn't been any new official material for D&D 3.5 in over 10 years.

I assure you it is the 3.0 version.

"Half-celestial" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nonevil alignment (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature’s type changes to "outsider." It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Speed: There is a 75% chance that a half-celestial has feathered wings. The creature can fly at twice the base creature’s normal speed (good maneuverability).
AC: Natural armor improves by +1.
Special Attacks: A half-celestial retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the supernatural ability to use light at will as the spell. Half-celestials with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher possess the following spell-like abilities, using their level as the caster level, as specified in the table below. Unless otherwise indicated, the ability is usable once per day.





Level

Abilities



1-2

Protection from evil, 3/day, bless



3-4

Aid, detect evil



5-6

Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison



7-8

Holy smite, remove disease



9-10

Dispel evil



11-12

Holy word



13-14

Holy aura 3/day, hallow



15-16

Symbol



17-18

Summon monster IX (celestials only)



19+

Resurrection






Special Qualities: A half-celestial has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus low-light vision. Half-celestials are immune to acid, cold, disease, and electricity, and gain a +4 racial bonus to Fortitude saves against poison.
Base Saves: Same as the base creature
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4.
Skills: A half-celestial has 8 skill points, plus its Intelligence modifier, per Hit Die. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills and other skills as cross-class. If the creature has a class, it gains skills for class levels normally.
Feats: Half-celestials have one feat for every four levels or the base creature’s total of feats, whichever is greater.

Climate/Terrain: Same as either the base creature or the celestial
Organization: Same as the base creature
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1
Alignment: Always good (any)
Treasure: Same as the base creature
Advancement: Same as the base creature

[Rendakor]

The thing about Saint is that it's not something you can just slap onto a creature. Becoming a Saint requires 3 exalted feats, 6th level minimum, an "extraordinary sacrifice," and that the character has never strayed from the straight and narrow. For most builds, there are not 3 good exalted feats, so it's a 1-2 feat tax. I'm not going to bother comparing it to the "alternate"/3.0 half-celestial; compared to the 3.5 HC, you're getting fast healing, Wis to AC, 3 immunities, the protective aura, and +8 ability scores instead of wings, decent SLAs, SR, +20 ability scores, and no firm code of conduct (it says Alignment: Always good (any) but there's no sort of clause for losing your abilities if you commit the occasionally neutral or even evil act).

Now, am I saying that Half-Celestial is strictly better than Saint? No, not really; it largely depends on the build in question. Giving up the +4 LA RAW is almost never going to be worth it, especially if you aren't using some way to acquire it slowly in-game. Having 1 class level at ECL 5 is pretty awful, template or no, which really puts it out of reach for any campaign that doesn't start decently high level. Since Saint is acquirable in-game through deeds and actions, it's certainly a more playable template but it's not without cost. But asking to bring Half-Celestial's level adjustment below +3 without dumping some of the ability score increases at a minimum seems unlikely.

[Zanos]

Agree that Saint is a bad measuring stick, the RP requirements would make it tough even at LA +0, as far as tiers of goodness goes it's something like Saint>Exalted>Paladin>Regular Good. Really not fit for most parties.

[Remuko]

3.0 half dragon also had a % chance at wings. I actually preferred that version because I didnt have to be bigger than medium to get wings from it. I also never played with DMs that made us roll for the % we just took it as a guide for how rare (or common) such a thing should be, like alignment in statblocks.

[Hunterx]

If you type in forgotten realms half celestial it will pop up look at the dates once you open it at the very bottom of the page.


I also think Saint is a good measuring stick her is why.

Lv4 say paladin half celestial

Lv6 say paladin Saint

They have the same levels, a total of 8'but over all the Saint is stronger so why is it a 4 when a 2 is equal.

[tyckspoon]

If you type in forgotten realms half celestial it will pop up look at the dates once you open it at the very bottom of the page.


I also think Saint is a good measuring stick her is why.

Lv4 say paladin half celestial

Lv6 say paladin Saint

They have the same levels, a total of 8'but over all the Saint is stronger so why is it a 4 when a 2 is equal.

Are you looking at Realmshelp? Those are the copyright dates, not the date of creation or the date of content - they are not asserting that they are 'new content', just that this is Dungeons And Dragons stuff and Wizards of the Coast still claims copyright on it.

As for Saint, it's deliberately stronger than LA+2 would normally be. That's because it's not a normal template - it comes with fairly hefty requirements to take it, and it has very strict roleplay/in-character requirements. You can have an Evil Half-Celestial. You cannot have an Evil Saint. You cannot even have a Saint that has ever performed an Evil act - that causes them to lose the template and be disqualified from ever receiving it again. (And no, you will not see that requirement if you just look up Saint's mechanical effects - you have to go to the full source in Book of Exalted Deeds.) Saint should not be taken as an intended balancing point.

[Hunterx]

It is not that hard to play a char that good, just help everyone out and go after evil to tell you the truth