5e Paladin vs Divine soul, how would he know?

[Dragonkingofth]

So, I'm playing a divine soul sorcerer (and fighter multi class, the idea being to use quicken magic to blast as I hit with metal sticks) and also in the party is a Paladin.

Now, Xanathar guide says that paladin and clerics don't like Divine souls as they are outside the relgious hiarchy, which our paladin is willing to role play, but the question is: how would he know I'm a divine soul without me out right telling him "I was blessed by a good fairy at my birth and so wield holy power"?

About the only think I could think of is that likely pop on his Divine Sense, but other then that I don't know how he would know. Anybody have any idea how the Paladin would figure it out?

[Anymage]

What are the character backgrounds? Primarily in general, but also the ones on your character sheets.

Because your average divine caster has a background of working with some church or other, and obviously recharges their spell slots through prayer. A sorcerer, even a holy sorcerer, doesn't. That'll be noteworthy. On the other hand, there are lots of Backgrounds the paladin could have that didn't really care. And likewise, certain Backgrounds on your character could put you in the good graces of the religious community. The Acolyte background and a history of being a devout churchgoer, for instance, probably outweigh what the class description says.

[Dragonkingofth]

I don't know about him, but my back ground is wanderer, my more detailed story cut shorty is: I'm This Guy

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/samuraijack/images/e/e3/Scotsman_2.png(Cards on the table I'm doing sorcerer+fighter so I could combine the magic initiate feat (i'm a variant human) with quicken magic to cast vicious mockery in the same turn I hit somebody with a sword so I could be an endless insulting machine, plus tanking damage via conferring disadvantage+the shield spell is not the worst idea in the world)

As I said though, I think he's willing to go along with this general Xanathar guide, guide line for Divine soul Paladin interactions for roleplay and it being an interesting angle for our two guys to bounce off each other, since were stuck together in Ravenloft. But it's only interesting if he actually KNOWS I'm a divine soul, which leads back to the question how would he know? All I can think of is him picking me up on his Divine Sense, but that's about it.

[Pleh]

A solid Insight or Religion check could work.

If you aren't actively being deceptive, he could probably tell by the way you dress and your bearing.

If you are actively trying to disguise yourself as a paladin, then it'd be an opposed roll against your deception check.

[Dragonkingofth]

A solid Insight or Religion check could work.

If you aren't actively being deceptive, he could probably tell by the way you dress and your bearing.

If you are actively trying to disguise yourself as a paladin, then it'd be an opposed roll against your deception check.

So basically I cast magic, he double takes as I do so and goes 'hang on, that looks familiar', and then it clicks depending on his insight or religion roll? that sounds workable, and make sense him sort of seeing how I'm casting the magic. I'll bring that up next time I see my DM.

[FelineArchmage]

So basically I cast magic, he double takes as I do so and goes 'hang on, that looks familiar', and then it clicks depending on his insight or religion roll? that sounds workable, and make sense him sort of seeing how I'm casting the magic. I'll bring that up next time I see my DM.

Also keep in mind that - traditionally - clerics and paladins devoted to a god pray to cast their spells ("Oh lord Zeus, Smite my enemy!" when casting a thunder based spell, etc). So depending on how you decide to roleplay the verbal components they can also find out that way.

[ElChad]

Also keep in mind that - traditionally - clerics and paladins devoted to a god pray to cast their spells ("Oh lord Zeus, Smite my enemy!" when casting a thunder based spell, etc). So depending on how you decide to roleplay the verbal components they can also find out that way.

Adding to this.

Depending on the world, and how classes are interpreted within it, there is a lot of overlap with Arcane and Divine spells. Unless classes are a solidified and notified concept in the world ("That guy is a Rogue, she is a Ranger, Bill is a Wizard and Jenny is a Sorcerer"), the abilities of a caster could vary from person to person.

For example, Wizards and Bards are both Arcane Casters, yet Bards get access to Bane, Cure Wounds, Heroism and Healing Word. A paladin may be aware of the fact that sometimes an arcane caster may be able to mimic divine spells, and raise an eye brow at your healing capabilities, but depending on how you flavor the casting/the effects of your magic, he may just shrug it off as some Arcane Mimicry (might even act high and mighty about it or look down on you for it).

Though, if you bring out spells that are 100% for sure coming from Divine Influences (such as Bless, Forbiddance, and Hallow) or, as FelineArchmage mentioned, roleplay the verbal components with divine influences, then it would make more sense for him to suspect that there's more to you than meets the eye. These are the only ways I imagine a Paladin could figure you out without you telling him/meta gaming.

[Lunali]

So basically I cast magic, he double takes as I do so and goes 'hang on, that looks familiar', and then it clicks depending on his insight or religion roll? that sounds workable, and make sense him sort of seeing how I'm casting the magic. I'll bring that up next time I see my DM.

It wouldn't so much be on when you cast magic as when you interact with each other socially.

[ImproperJustice]

For my two cents, I think it is silly that there would be any antagonism between two Divine casters of good aligned and even neutral deities.

I mean, I can see the jealousy angle, but if you are chosen enough to be able to explode people with Divine power I would think your head may be on straight enough to put your petty pride aside for the sake of the greater good.....

[Lunali]

For my two cents, I think it is silly that there would be any antagonism between two Divine casters of good aligned and even neutral deities.

I mean, I can see the jealousy angle, but if you are chosen enough to be able to explode people with Divine power I would think your head may be on straight enough to put your petty pride aside for the sake of the greater good.....

On an individual basis, you're probably right. But on an institutional basis, you just have to look at our own history and what has happened between worshipers of the same god, without even considering things like the crusades and the like.

[Knightofvictory]

Paladin: "Ah a holy ally in the fight against evil. Are you high ranking within your order?"
Divine Soul: "Actually, I have been called by my god personally. I answer to no one but them. And really I don't care much about your order or any other."
Paladin::smalleek::smallannoyed:


I'm sure it would come up in character after a session or two. And if you lied about it, you could (I would think) hide it forever. But why would you lie? Are you ashamed of your calling, or willing to hide what you are?

[NecessaryWeevil]

If you worship the same god and come from the same area, simply the fact that he's never heard of you within the church governance structures, perhaps.

The less similar your gods and churches are, the less I can see them caring.

[Spore]

Remember the realms of Ravenloft take a very muted approach to divine spellcasting. All spells and features have their full effects. But the 'special effects' are rather dampened. You don't really feel the presence of your god in this realm. The deity seems kind of far away, distant, blotted out by the sheer darkness of the world.

Arcane spells usually work differently. They are darker, more twisted versions of the regular ones: Find familiar only spawns undead, a magic missile spell might send screaming skulls towards the enemy. They usually use a very cliched "evil-spellcaster" theme for the arcane effects.

So where does your power come from? Does it now come from within you - as is normal for sorcerers? Or does it come from a divine source? How would your DM refluff your spells, how has he or she done in the past? (CoS has guidelines how to refluff spells in Barovia, but like any part of a published module, a DM can simply ignore it.)

[Dragonkingofth]

Remember the realms of Ravenloft take a very muted approach to divine spellcasting. All spells and features have their full effects. But the 'special effects' are rather dampened. You don't really feel the presence of your god in this realm. The deity seems kind of far away, distant, blotted out by the sheer darkness of the world.

Huh, i was unaware of this fact of Ravenloft interesting. As for where does my power come from, I just been running it as 'blessed by a very powerful good fae at birth' thing. She expected a paladin and got. . . well, the Scotsman. Good at heart, but way too vicious to be chaotic good.

Bunch of good advice in this thread about this I must say: but if I might bump up to my first idea because I'm just flatly curious: would I pop on his divine sense? Divine Sense picks up any place or object that has been consecrated (desecrated). Does that mean the Divine link between a divine soul Sorcerer and the. . .well, divine would also flare up?

[mgshamster]

Now, Xanathar guide says that paladin and clerics don't like Divine souls as they are outside the relgious hiarchy,

That's kind of funny considering that a paladin is as much a part of church hierarchy as a divine sould is - that is that there is no requirement by the class to be a part of one and it's entirely based on character background.

Heck, paladins don't even get their power from a god, they get it from the strength of their convictions (PHB 84-85).

Even a cleric may not be a part of the church - their power comes from the god directly, and the god decides who to give such power. The god may or may not care about formal organizations.

I think it'd be more based on the character's background than their class.

Not anything against what you said, I was just amused that they're put that in there. Now I'm curious about it. I'm going to go look it up.

... And I'm back! I can't seem to find that in XgTE. It's not in the cleric, paladin, or sorcerer sections. I likely just missing it somewhere. Can you point me to it?

[Unoriginal]

Here's what the Xanathar's says:



Sometimes the spark of magic that fuels a sorcerer comes from a divine source that glimmers within the soul. Having such a blessed soul is a sign that your innate magic might come from a distant but powerful familial connection to a divine being. Perhaps your ancestor was an angel, transformed into a mortal and sent to fight in a god’s name. Or your birth might align with an ancient prophecy, marking you as a servant of the gods or a chosen vessel of divine magic.

A Divine Soul, with a natural magnetism, is seen as a threat by some religious hierarchies. As an outsider who commands sacred power, a Divine Soul can undermine an existing order by claiming a direct tie to the divine.

In some cultures, only those who can claim the power of a Divine Soul may command religious power. In these lands, ecclesiastical positions are dominated by a few bloodlines and preserved over generations

So, we know that:

1) Divine Souls have some link to the divine due to their birth, but they technically exist independently from the gods' decisions.

2) Some churches consider Divine Souls a threat because they can just show up, say they're the true boss and that the priests who devoted their whole life to a deity are chumps, and be convincing enough to succeed.

3) In other places, you must have innate divine power to claim a position in the religious hierarchy.

Nothing says that Paladins or Clerics have special hostility against the Divine Souls, and in some cultures the Divine Soul would actually be seen as a more legitimate agent of the divine than the Cleric.

As long as your Divine Soul doesn't show up in the middle of a religious service and try to hijack the cult, you should be fine.

[Spore]

Huh, i was unaware of this fact of Ravenloft interesting. As for where does my power come from, I just been running it as 'blessed by a very powerful good fae at birth' thing.

So as the demiplanes of dread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?476853-Ravenloft-and-the-Shadowfell) are as far away as they can be from the Feywild: "
It existed as sort of a counterpart to the Feywild in the sense that it was a reflection or "echo" of the Prime Material Plane except that it was a bleak, desolate place full of decay and death" (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowfell)

So for purposes of "where the power comes from, celestial and Feywild sources of power are both about as far away from the setting and personally I would apply the same fluff to it. Some dampened power from outside that your character has been blessed with whether they qualify or not.


Divine Sense picks up any place or object that has been consecrated (desecrated). Does that mean the Divine link between a divine soul Sorcerer and the. . .well, divine would also flare up?

Personally I would say anything that is under the effect of a Hallow spell as a given (as well as churches and chapels and demonic ritual altars and Castle Ravenloft). There are NO hard rules about it. But I think the Divine Sense was nerfed because 5e didn't want you to get many meaningless results. Back in 3.5 you would ping an abusive husband and father as evil or a greedy businessman. These people simply have no part in heroic fantasy. (though it is a nice touch if a paladin would stop an abusive husband on the side)


Now, Xanathar guide says that paladin and clerics don't like Divine souls as they are outside the relgious hiarchy, which our paladin is willing to role play

May I propose a better idea? Since church hierarchy is not present in Ravenloft, this conflict lacks the feedback from the side of hierarchy itself. Instead, I would go about a conflict of virtue and justice (if your paladin is a classic LG one). He would say things like: "You steal the power of the gods. You do not have to abide to the tenets of any faith. You don't have to act in the right way to preserve your god's blessings. You simply took the divine and made it your own." The paladin would admonish the sorcerer not to abuse his powers, and would lament (maybe with a bit of envy) that the sorcerer doesn't have to abide to any and all rules. He simply is that powerful.

Your character being a snide rude and crass warrior just puts the cherry on top.

[Tanarii]

Nothing says that Paladins or Clerics have special hostility against the Divine Souls, and in some cultures the Divine Soul would actually be seen as a more legitimate agent of the divine than the Cleric.
For that matter, it's entirely possibly that some existing heirarchies would see Clerics and Paladins who were independent from them as a serious threat. Especially Clerics who were specifically and intentionally granted power by their own God or Pantheon, but are not part of the religious order(s).

[mgshamster]

Thanks Unoriginal! I knew I was missing it.

If we look at the Cleric class in the PHB, we see:


Not every acolyte or officiant at a tem pIe or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods' will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at alI. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.

So you can have entire church hierachies without a cleric in the entire group.

For the divine soul, I think that they're referring to the religious organizations that don't really have a direct connection to a deity and are just using prayer and belief to claim a connection - much like modern day churches.

Now someone comes along with a direct connection (ie the Divine Soul, or even a Cleric) and has a more legitimate claim to the deity than the enite church leadership. Now that is a political threat to the church and a dang good reason why they wouldn't like you.

[Unoriginal]

For that matter, it's entirely possibly that some existing heirarchies would see Clerics and Paladins who were independent from them as a serious threat. Especially Clerics who were specifically and intentionally granted power by their own God or Pantheon, but are not part of the religious order(s).

Well yes, the same way that one cult of the god having a Cleric but not another could raise tensions. But D&D gods are mostly smart and involved enough to have genuine believers as their priests (in a "feel that the person who's conducting the cult actually has pledged themselves to the god" way), so most priests won't go and hinder the Chosen Ones of their deity.




Thanks Unoriginal! I knew I was missing it.

You're welcome!



So you can have entire church hierachies without a cleric in the entire group.

Indeed. This is why being part of a religious hierarchy is the Acolyte background and not mandatory for Clerics.



For the divine soul, I think that they're referring to the religious organizations that don't really have a direct connection to a deity and are just using prayer and belief to claim a connection - much like modern day churches.

Now someone comes along with a direct connection (ie the Divine Soul, or even a Cleric) and has a more legitimate claim to the deity than the enite church leadership. Now that is a political threat to the church and a dang good reason why they wouldn't like you.

Also gotta consider how frustrating it could be for a pious person who dedicated their whole life to their god and church to get told "yo, this guy over here is my Chosen One".

The key difference is that while a Cleric is a Chosen One of a god, a Divine Soul... kinda has power for being there?

It's one thing to tolerate a new consultant with executive power personally endorsed by the big boss and sent to help the company, and who actually has the skills needed to do that. It's a different thing to tolerate a guy showing up in the company's office claiming to be the big boss's nephew and throwing their weight around.

[mgshamster]

The key difference is that while a Cleric is a Chosen One of a god, a Divine Soul... kinda has power for being there?

Your post is full of great points (I snapped the rest for brevity).

One thing I also like about clerics is that they're entirely based on being chosen by the god. Which means that a person so chosen can actually entirely resent being chosen!

I just love the idea of this cleric walking around absolutely hating the fact that he has to do all this crap, and never really liked the god anyways, grumble grumble grumble....

[Angelalex242]

Well, divine souls are to clerics as sorcerers are to wizards.

So I don't image the relationship is any better, or worse, than that one.

Divine Souls are to Paladins as Sorcerers are to Eldritch Knights.

I'm not sure why the Paladin cares so much...

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure why the Paladin cares so much...

They don't. OP was mistaken, in the default lore. Now in a setting-specific manner it could be correct.

[mgshamster]

They don't. OP was mistaken, in the default lore. Now in a setting-specific manner it could be correct.

In this case, it's irrelevant what the text actually says, as the two players have now decided to add that bit to their own characters and have a bit of roleplay fun. :)

So if we assume that the Paladin does not like people who are Divine Souls, how do we answer the follow-up question:

"How would the Paladin know someone is a Divine Soul?"

It certainly isn't by the mechanics of the game, so it would have be based on social cues.

[Unoriginal]

In this case, it's irrelevant what the text actually says, as the two players have now decided to add that bit to their own characters and have a bit of roleplay fun. :)

So if we assume that the Paladin does not like people who are Divine Souls, how do we answer the follow-up question:

"How would the Paladin know someone is a Divine Soul?"

It certainly isn't by the mechanics of the game, so it would have be based on social cues.

Well, the mechanics of the game kinda can give it away, in the sense that the Divine Souls will not have the same capacities than a Cleric.

Things that give it away:

-lack of armor training

-no Domain power/Turn Undead

-Not being able to use a holy symbol as focus (or needing an arcane focus)

-Having spells that are clearly more Sorcerer than Cleric, like most combat cantrips or big damage spells

-Declaring oneself a king for no reason and repeatedly boasting about one's supposed unbeatable-ness in various public places.

[mgshamster]

Well, the mechanics of the game kinda can give it away, in the sense that the Divine Souls will not have the same capacities than a Cleric.

Things that give it away:

-lack of armor training

-no Domain power/Turn Undead

-Not being able to use a holy symbol as focus (or needing an arcane focus)

-Having spells that are clearly more Sorcerer than Cleric, like most combat cantrips or big damage spells

Oh, yeah. Totally. I was more thinking that mechanics such as Divine Sense wouldn't make a Divine Soul go "Ping!" What you described I thought more of as the social cues - the divine souls aren't doing the things you'd expect a cleric to do, so something must be off!


-Declaring oneself a king for no reason and repeatedly boasting about one's supposed unbeatable-ness in various public places.

Can't... Stop... Laughing....

[Tanarii]

Well yes, the same way that one cult of the god having a Cleric but not another could raise tensions. But D&D gods are mostly smart and involved enough to have genuine believers as their priests (in a "feel that the person who's conducting the cult actually has pledged themselves to the god" way), so most priests won't go and hinder the Chosen Ones of their deity. I dunno. I can think of at least one famous story about a non-priest who was granted divine power directly, and was heavily opposed by the existing church hierarchy. So famous it's almost archetypical.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, yeah. Totally. I was more thinking that mechanics such as Divine Sense wouldn't make a Divine Soul go "Ping!" What you described I thought more of as the social cues - the divine souls aren't doing the things you'd expect a cleric to do, so something must be off!

Fair.



Can't... Stop... Laughing....

*bow deeply*


I dunno. I can think of at least one famous story about a non-priest who was granted divine power directly, and was heavily opposed by the existing church hierarchy. So famous it's almost archetypical.

We don't talk about Henry VIII.


More seriously, D&D Clerics have the advantage that the gods can tell their followers "yo, this one's my Chosen One" rather than the Chosen One saying it and hoping the church hierarchy will believe it.

Sure, they might not like the dude, but the actual believers probably wouldn't dare not accepting their god's explicit envoy.

They might demand to see a Divine Intervention, though, if there is doubt about the Cleric's legitimacy.

[Specter]

It would depend on the other guy rather than you.

As a Paladin, I wouldn't care - some people get where they through devotion, and others through blood. Whoever helps me get my job done is a worthy ally.

[Tanarii]

We don't talk about Henry VIII.😂😂😂


More seriously, D&D Clerics have the advantage that the gods can tell their followers "yo, this one's my Chosen One" rather than the Chosen One saying it and hoping the church hierarchy will believe it.

Sure, they might not like the dude, but the actual believers probably wouldn't dare not accepting their god's explicit envoy.

They might demand to see a Divine Intervention, though, if there is doubt about the Cleric's legitimacy.
Fair point.

I personally don't think of D&D gods or dieties as being that direct or clear or obvious. There's too much magic floating around, including divine magic from other dieties, dead dieties, and non-divine sources. And too many sources for prophecy or divinely inspired dreams or the like. So I still see it as being a matter of faith and acceptance, rather than any kind proof forcing acceptance.

But thats not really the common interpretation. In fact I'm willing to bet if we go read the class descriptions we'd find plenty ro contradict that.

[Spore]

Your post is full of great points (I snapped the rest for brevity).

One thing I also like about clerics is that they're entirely based on being chosen by the god. Which means that a person so chosen can actually entirely resent being chosen!

I just love the idea of this cleric walking around absolutely hating the fact that he has to do all this crap, and never really liked the god anyways, grumble grumble grumble....

Honestly I'd love to play this concept. But not in an edgy "I never asked for this" Adam Jensen way. But more in a pouty kid/angry moping dwarf kinda way.

*grumble grumble* Stupid gods and their mysterious ways

*sighs deeply* fricking undead attacks all the time *rolls eyes* damn it, why do I have to deal with liches?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly I'd love to play this concept. But not in an edgy "I never asked for this" Adam Jensen way. But more in a pouty kid/angry moping dwarf kinda way.

*grumble grumble* Stupid gods and their mysterious ways

*sighs deeply* fricking undead attacks all the time *rolls eyes* damn it, why do I have to deal with liches?

I actually built, but didn't run a character like this. A dwarf, raised by gnomes, unwillingly chosen by a gnome God. He'd take the argue with god route: are you sure? Can I do that instead? Why can't I just settle down? Ok, ok, I'll do it. But I don't have to like it.