How and when to multiclass?

[Greywander]

I'm playing in a gestalt campaign with my sister, and we just reached 3rd level. I've been thinking about what classes to take, and it's lead me to make a few observations about multiclassing. (Just as a reminder, since we are gestalt characters, we get two class levels for each character level. This probably changes how some of my observations apply to non-gestalt scenarios.)

In my particular case, I'm an Illusionist wizard 2 / Knowledge cleric 1 / rogue 1. I will most likely spend one of my class levels to continue my wizard progression (likely until wizard 18 if not all the way to 20). What I'm not certain about it how to spend my other class level. Part of that, I think, is not really knowing how I want to build my character. But part of it is weighing the benefits of each choice.

My first thought was to dip 3 levels into warlock for the chainlock pet, a couple invocations, pact magic spell slots, and extra spells and cantrips. The first level of warlock alone gives me: 2 cantrips, 2 spells, 1 pact magic slot, and a patron feature. That's quite a bit.

Then I thought that perhaps I should dip another level into rogue for Cunning Action. But that's all I'd get. Don't get me wrong, Cunning Action is great, probably better than any of the individual features I'd get from one level of warlock, but it's only one feature, and it really only helps in combat, while the warlock features can help in a variety of situations.

On the other hand, I could take another level of cleric. This would get me the channel divinity feature, allow me to prepare an extra cleric spell (my WIS is crap), and boost my caster level to 5 (I'm testing out a homebrew spellcasting system, and it has a power boost when you reach 5th caster level). Again, there's not much here, although what it gives is still pretty useful.

Another thought was that I might want to dip 3 levels into sorcerer for metamagic. The first level of sorcerer would give me 4 (!) cantrips, 2 spells known, +1 caster level, and a Sorcerous Origin feature. Did I mention I rolled well for my Charisma?

The trend I'm noticing, and I'm sure this is no surprise to anyone, is that dipping one level into a new class seems to give a lot more than taking a second level in a class I already have. If I want to dip into more than one class (which being a gestalt gives me the freedom to do without hurting my "main" class progression), is it better to dip one level into each class first, then pick up higher levels later, or to "complete" a dip as far as I intend to go before starting on another class?

[MrStabby]

I would say warlock is the way to go. If I understand you right you can level up warlock AND wizard each level? Your role will still be a caster but this way you get more high level slots to use your broad range of wizard spells on. You should get enough resources between casting, pact magic and arcane recovery to treat each encounter as some kind of nova exercise.

As an example you need to expend an invocation just to cast polymorph once per day using a warlock spell slot. Like this you get that benefit on any spell slot. Just imagine the size of an undead army you could build as a necromancer/warlock (not actually recommended as probably a drag for everyone else.)

[CTurbo]

If you go Warlock, you'll end up with classes that rely on Dex, Int, Wis, AND Cha

Do you have the stats for that?

What is the point of the Cleric 1 just out of curiosity?

I say continue with Rogue and take Arcane Trickster. Wizards can benefit greatly from most of the Rogue's abilities.

[Greywander]

If I understand you right you can level up warlock AND wizard each level?
[...]
(not actually recommended as probably a drag for everyone else.)
Well, it's just the two of us. We're even having to co-DM the game so we can both play. Gestalting was meant partially to address having a smaller party, although we've somehow attracted several NPC allies.


If you go Warlock, you'll end up with classes that rely on Dex, Int, Wis, AND Cha

Do you have the stats for that?
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 18
WIS 12
CHA 18

Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous, and both my sister and I may have rerolled a few times before getting an array we liked. We did use an alternate method where we roll in order, then switch two of them, then reroll one, so even though they're high, they're not necessarily where I'd want them. That 18 in CHA would have been better placed into DEX or CON, but that's part of the fun of rolling in order.


What is the point of the Cleric 1 just out of curiosity?

I say continue with Rogue and take Arcane Trickster. Wizards can benefit greatly from most of the Rogue's abilities.
Cleric 1 gives you: medium armor and shields, all simple weapons, 3 cantrips, and access to 1st level cleric spells. Knowledge domain gives proficiency with expertise in two knowledge skills and two languages. There's a lot of cleric spells that don't require an attack roll or saving throw (Bless, Create or Destroy Water, Detect Evil and Good, Detect Poison and Disease, Protection from Evil and Good, Purify Food and Drink, Shield of Faith; Guidance, Light, Mending, Resistance, Spare the Dying, Thaumaturgy), however with a WIS of 12 I can only prepare 2 cleric spells right now.

I think I was giving serious thought to Arcance Trickster at some point, but it's been so long since we started playing (and we've only just reached 3rd level) that I've forgotten what my original build was going to be. One level of rogue got me two extra skill proficiencies, expertise with two skills, and proficiency in thieves' tools. Since we're just two players, extra proficiencies really help out. I do plan on getting at least Cunning Action later, and will probably dip a third level for the archetype. I'll have to consider how deep I want to go, and if I'd rather put more levels into warlock or rogue.

[Vorok]

Well, it's just the two of us. We're even having to co-DM the game so we can both play. Gestalting was meant partially to address having a smaller party, although we've somehow attracted several NPC allies.


STR 10
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 18
WIS 12
CHA 18




Not to rain on your parade, but with wis 12, you can't multi class in or out of cleric, RAW.

[Greywander]

Not to rain on your parade, but with wis 12, you can't multi class in or out of cleric, RAW.
We've decided to ignore those restrictions. They don't really seem to have a reason to exist, unless it's to give DMs a valid reason to reign things in if multiclassing gets out of hand.

[CTurbo]

I figured the Armor and skills was the reason for Cleric.

Even if you never use Sneak Attack, I still think Arcane Trickster is your best bet. Cunning Action, more Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent, extra ASI/feat, etc... and that is just base class Rogue stuff. Arcane Trickster gets you extra spells and cantrips that key off of Int and super mage hand.


Other than more Rogue, I recommend Chain Pact Warlock. Having a super familiar is AWESOME for a 2 player party.