Which gish will be more fun?

[B0nes]

I'm planning a gish build for when W:DH and DotMM release later this year, but I've never played a gish before so I'm hoping for some advice. Currently I'm tossing up between 3 Sword Bard/X Hexblade Warlock and 2/X or 6/X Paladin/Sorcerer build (playing a wizard currently so not really considering bladesinger). From what I can tell the Bardlock will probably have more options out of combat due to Jack of all Trades, Expertise and Invocations, while the Sorcadin can be more of a frontliner with serious nova damage in combat. Neither build will be lacking in mechanical power, but which do you think would be more fun in actual play?

I've already got some ideas for how I could RP the multiclass so I'm not worried about this from an RP perspective.

[MegenticPull]

I, personally, would go pally 6 sorcerer X. It is likely the most powerful gish in combat, and while it won't have invocations, you eventually do end up with decent spell progression, which can be useful out of combat.

In my opinion, smite is just more fun than bardic inspiration.

[Desteplo]

Have you tried a sword bard to 20? Or any kind of bladelock? It doesn’t need to be hexblade.
-you don’t need to multiclass to have a fun expierence
-versatility is what’s more fun longer you go through a campaign
-doing the same thing per turn sequence can get old

[B0nes]

I, personally, would go pally 6 sorcerer X. It is likely the most powerful gish in combat, and while it won't have invocations, you eventually do end up with decent spell progression, which can be useful out of combat.

In my opinion, smite is just more fun than bardic inspiration.

I am a bit worried about outshining the other players if I go too ham, but that's something I'll have to discuss with them. I've only played a Paladin to lvl6 and smites were pretty great, though I'm wondering if Eldritch smite could cover that.


Have you tried a sword bard to 20? Or any kind of bladelock? It doesn’t need to be hexblade.
-you don’t need to multiclass to have a fun expierence
-versatility is what’s more fun longer you go through a campaign
-doing the same thing per turn sequence can get old

I haven't ever played a Bard or Warlock so I'm kinda trying to get a bit of everything. I should also add I want to play a more melee based character, hence the Sword Bard and Hexblade subclasses. The multiclass also adds some more versatility through some extra spells per day, Bardic Inspiration and Jack of all Trades.

How would you compare Hexblade to other Bladelocks?

[ProseBeforeHos]

How would you compare Hexblade to other Bladelocks?

Non-Hexblade bladelocks are pretty terrible. Very MAD and lacking the shield + medium armor proficiency you gain from hexblade means you're almost locked into multi-classing them with fighter or pally.

Honestly I think the most 'fun' gish would be a dex based, duel weilding CoS bad, with no Hexblade multiclassing.

Think Haer'Dalis (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Haer%27Dalis) from BG2 (you could even play a tiefling with the new MToF subraces).

And there's no danger of you outshining the other member of your party in combat if you do this. CoS is decent, but hardly overpowered.

[B0nes]

Non-Hexblade bladelocks are pretty terrible. Very MAD and lacking the shield + medium armor proficiency you gain from hexblade means you're almost locked into multi-classing them with fighter or pally.

Honestly I think the most 'fun' gish would be a dex based, duel weilding CoS bad, with no Hexblade multiclassing.

Think Haer'Dalis (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Haer%27Dalis) from BG2 (you could even play a tiefling with the new MToF subraces).

And there's no danger of you outshining the other member of your party in combat if you do this. CoS is decent, but hardly overpowered.

Wouldn't a pure CoS Bard have the same issues as a non-Hexblade Bladelock (except medium armor)? I also like that Hexblade + Blade Pact allows you to use any weapon.

I'm not too worried about making a strong character (I do like playing powerful characters), just being cautious as Sorcadins have a reputation for being extremely powerful when mildly optimised. How do you think a pure CoS Bard would compare to a pure Hexblade?

[Unoriginal]

Sorcadins are only powerful when you burn through your daily ressources like crazy.

Doubt it'll be an issue for either of those adventures.

[Sorlock Master]

Some other options might be Monk/Cleric, still gishy but leaves flexibility for going what ever direction the party needs.

Another option would be Ranger/Cleric.

If I had to pick from options I would pick Sword Bard 4/ GOO Bladelock X. Personally I like to fill 1 role in and out of combat.

P.S. Also an Eldrich Knight/Abjuration wizard would be intresting.

[Spectrulus]

I would recommend trying an Eldritch Knight 8/Wiz X

Full armour, two attacks, moderate high casting eventually, and the Feature War Magic, which lets you attack while using a cantrip. This includes goodies as GFB + attack (2.5 melee attacks), Blade Ward + attack for when you know you're going to get hurt, Lightning Lure + attack to save an ally, let alone other awesome combos. Extra ASI to help with MADness, and then going wizard for rest to get non abjuration/evocation spells.

[ProseBeforeHos]

Wouldn't a pure CoS Bard have the same issues as a non-Hexblade Bladelock (except medium armor)? I also like that Hexblade + Blade Pact allows you to use any weapon.


Nah. CoS bard needs Dexterity (primary), Charisma + Con (secondary). It's not too mad unlike non-HB bladelock (who need all that AND strength).

Go half-elf and you'll be fine.


I'm not too worried about making a strong character (I do like playing powerful characters), just being cautious as Sorcadins have a reputation for being extremely powerful when mildly optimised. How do you think a pure CoS Bard would compare to a pure Hexblade?

Both are good. Pure hexblade maybe a little stronger overall, but lacking the utility of bard.

[mephnick]

Pfft, screw Hexblades. Go Fighter 2/ Bladelock X with high STR and Heavy Armor like a real man.

[Snowbluff]

Sorcadins are only powerful when you burn through your daily ressources like crazy.

Doubt it'll be an issue for either of those adventures.

Sorcerers have Divine Soul now, which can extend their value with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.


Pfft, screw Hexblades. Go Fighter 2/ Bladelock X with high STR and Heavy Armor like a real man.

I have a memetic badass in my group called Monty. He's a Fighter2/ArcaneTricker10 who wears full plate and uses blade cantrips with sneak attack. He's super manly.

[strangebloke]

Pfft, screw Hexblades. Go Fighter 2/ Bladelock X with high STR and Heavy Armor like a real man.

Yup.

The he blade is better than any other blade warlock if and only if multiclassing isn't allowed. Otherwise, it's a toss-up.

And that's really the thing. "Gish" as a concept is super frocking broad. All of the following could qualify as a Gish, depending on your definition:

Hexblade
Blade lock
Swords bard
Valor bard
Ranger
Paladin
Eldritch Knight
Arcane trickster
Giant Sorcerer
Any martial/caster multiclass

The better question is: do you want divinely themed powers? Nature powers? More magic? More attacking? 'Gish' runs the full gammit from "fighter with a touch of magic" to "wizard who can sword things in theory but in reality is just using cantrips all the time."

[B0nes]

Yup.

The he blade is better than any other blade warlock if and only if multiclassing isn't allowed. Otherwise, it's a toss-up.

And that's really the thing. "Gish" as a concept is super frocking broad. All of the following could qualify as a Gish, depending on your definition:

Hexblade
Blade lock
Swords bard
Valor bard
Ranger
Paladin
Eldritch Knight
Arcane trickster
Giant Sorcerer
Any martial/caster multiclass

The better question is: do you want divinely themed powers? Nature powers? More magic? More attacking? 'Gish' runs the full gammit from "fighter with a touch of magic" to "wizard who can sword things in theory but in reality is just using cantrips all the time."

It seems like any non-Hexblade Warlocks that are focused more on melee will be very MAD.

I've played Fighter and Barbs before and got bored of just attacking every round, despite how effective they were. I'm trying to find a good balance between magic and attacks so combat doesn't get too repetitive, using magic primarily to buff myself and add in the occasional aoe control/nuke or burst down a single target. Probably won't be a full time frontliner but can fill the role temporarily. Having utility outside combat is also a huge plus.

My biggest issue now is I want to try out all the fun builds that have been recommended....

[SuperiorRocket]

In one of my games, i am playing a tiefling fighter 1/warlock 7. I took celestial warlock and pact of the tome and it is a super fun build. I use shillelagh on my quaterstaff to use CHA for attacks without being a hexblade. I have 9 cantrips without even Eldritch Blast.

I also took the tiefling racial feat which allows me to reroll 1s on fire spell which makes green flame blade pretty satisfying, and i can also firebolt things from far away if needed. I really like the flavour it brings.

[MrStabby]

Tortle hexblade could be fun. You don't care about Str or Dex as it is irrelevant for armour. Yo get shield from Hexblade and can use all your ASIs for cool stuff.

[Citan]

I'm planning a gish build for when W:DH and DotMM release later this year, but I've never played a gish before so I'm hoping for some advice. Currently I'm tossing up between 3 Sword Bard/X Hexblade Warlock and 2/X or 6/X Paladin/Sorcerer build (playing a wizard currently so not really considering bladesinger). From what I can tell the Bardlock will probably have more options out of combat due to Jack of all Trades, Expertise and Invocations, while the Sorcadin can be more of a frontliner with serious nova damage in combat. Neither build will be lacking in mechanical power, but which do you think would be more fun in actual play?

I've already got some ideas for how I could RP the multiclass so I'm not worried about this from an RP perspective.


Non-Hexblade bladelocks are pretty terrible. Very MAD and lacking the shield + medium armor proficiency you gain from hexblade means you're almost locked into multi-classing them with fighter or pally.
That is a very wrong thing to say honestly. You know, GWM is not the high-end all-end for Warlock...
Non-Hexblade Warlocks have always been pretty functional. You just had to play them like Rogues, relying on ranged attacks for the very first levels then dashing in and out once you got Extra Attack. Between Expeditious Retreat, Darkness, Mirror Image, Blur Greater Invisibility, you had largely enough tools at your disposal to be as resilient as martials when you really needed to be.
And you could very well cope with a 17 AC (Mage Armor + 18 DEX) for that exact reason, so you could perfectly still max CHA, pick Resilient: Constitution and another martial-related feat.
Hexblade "just" brings much facility for some power builds.


It seems like any non-Hexblade Warlocks that are focused more on melee will be very MAD.

I've played Fighter and Barbs before and got bored of just attacking every round, despite how effective they were. I'm trying to find a good balance between magic and attacks so combat doesn't get too repetitive, using magic primarily to buff myself and add in the occasional aoe control/nuke or burst down a single target. Probably won't be a full time frontliner but can fill the role temporarily. Having utility outside combat is also a huge plus.

My biggest issue now is I want to try out all the fun builds that have been recommended....
No, not at all, the guy above is exaggerating by a huge scale.
The only MAD build is the Strength one, and only if you wanted to stack Lifedrinker and GWM. Otherwise, just go DEX and you would be fine.

With that said, I would still suggest the Hexblade simply because since you want a versatile gish, it does reduce the stat requirement (just pick 14 DEX, 14 CON and 16 CHA and you're set) so you can explore multiclasses with a light heart.
In other words, it's not that non-Hexblade Warlocks are MAD, it's rather that Hexblade Warlock is incredibly SAD, like a Fighter but with a whole full stack of magic on top.
And being that SAD means in turn missing ASI (or waiting for them a long time) is not that big a deal. :)

May I suggest Hexblade Tome Warlock 5 / Swords Bard 6 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 4?
Sorcerer 1 > Warlock 3 > Swords Bard 6 > whatever?
Idea being to get early the ability to learn rituals (of course, if your party needs to rely on you as main provider) then get Swords Bard 6 for Flourish and Extra Attack with short-rest Bardic Inspiration.
Pick Shadow Blade or Darkness (depending on 2nd Invocation) and Mirror Image as 2nd level.
Sorcerer will be here to bring Metamagics later.

This will make you reliable in many ways as soon as level 6-7: skills (Expertise at Bard 3, Enhance Ability Bard spell IIRC), damage (weapon cantrips / Extra Attack / Eldricht Blast), utility (possible rituals, several utility cantrips), self-survival (Shield, Mirror Image, Darkness, Flurry of Bard, medium armor), support (Healing Words, Faerie Fire IIRC, Fog Cloud, Dissonant Whispers, Heat Metal, you have many choices)...
AND once you get Catnap, you have a least one "short-rest" mostly guaranteed.
Another way to go if you don't care about extra cantrips/rituals would be Blade pact + Lore College, mainly to get Rope Trick to make getting short rests easier, but not sure if that trick is worth the investment. ^^

In short: 95% of any combination of Warlock, Bard, Sorcerer and Paladin will be great, so think character concept first, and possibly come back once you have something defined to double-check with us, but honestly even a blind build would probably be fine as long as you don't actively try to make something bad. :)

[ProseBeforeHos]

That is a very wrong thing to say honestly. You know, GWM is not the high-end all-end for Warlock...
Non-Hexblade Warlocks have always been pretty functional. You just had to play them like Rogues, relying on ranged attacks for the very first levels then dashing in and out once you got Extra Attack. Between Expeditious Retreat, Darkness, Mirror Image, Blur Greater Invisibility, you had largely enough tools at your disposal to be as resilient as martials when you really needed to be.
And you could very well cope with a 17 AC (Mage Armor + 18 DEX) for that exact reason, so you could perfectly still max CHA, pick Resilient: Constitution and another martial-related feat.
Hexblade "just" brings much facility for some power builds

Citan you are wrong so often on so many different topics that it's almost like a class ability.

Who ever said anything about GWM? I'd recommend non-hexblade bladelocks go sword/board with a level of fighter for a fighting style (dueling) and heavy armor (which they need since they don't get medium + shield from hexblade).

Non-Hexblades Bladelocks (I'll assume this is a typo, since no-one argues that blaster warlocks aren't good) have always been incredibly weak. Very MAD if you went dex (requiring con for the front line, dex for attacking and AC, and charisma for spells) and necessitating multi-classing if you didn't (usually into fighter). Even they they weren't very resilient or even particularly damaging.

Pre-hexblade bladelocks were imo just bad fighters that didn't hit their stride until really late in level progression. If you compared them to say, an EK, they were a joke, since the EK was far better earlier on, and continued to be better in the lategame (thanks to haste being on the EK spell-list, but not the warlock one).

Your stated example is a perfect example of this. We're spending an invocation on mage armor (at the expense of? we're already invocation heavy), and getting our dex to 18, but we're still "maxing charisma, and grabbing resilient:constitution"? Assuming starting dexterity + charisma of 16, and that we use an ASI for resilient we're not gonna be "maxing charisma" until level... 12 (and only if we go variant human)? You really think this is not significantly better than the Hexblade hitting their 20 charisma at level 8? Increasing their attacking and spellcasting ability simultaneously, while also not worrying at all about AC (saving an invocation here also)?

I really wonder what kind of kind GM's people have that in their games PhB beast-masters and pureclass non-Hexblade warlocks are tearing stuff up.

[Bloodcloud]

There are so many great options for gishing in this edition...

Really, Strangebloke only got a fraction of the possibilities. Decide what you want your character to feel like and play like, then we can really talk.

Do you want an agile light armored guish? Do you want Uber magic infused greatsword strikes? An armored tank with a staff? A bear of war?

[Citan]

Citan you are wrong so often on so many different topics that it's almost like a class ability.

Who ever said anything about GWM? I'd recommend non-hexblade bladelocks go sword/board with a level of fighter for a fighting style (dueling) and heavy armor (which they need since they don't get medium + shield from hexblade).

Non-Hexblades Bladelocks (I'll assume this is a typo, since no-one argues that blaster warlocks aren't good) have always been incredibly weak. Very MAD if you went dex (requiring con for the front line, dex for attacking and AC, and charisma for spells) and necessitating multi-classing if you didn't (usually into fighter). Even they they weren't very resilient or even particularly damaging.

Pre-hexblade bladelocks were imo just bad fighters that didn't hit their stride until really late in level progression. If you compared them to say, an EK, they were a joke, since the EK was far better earlier on, and continued to be better in the lategame (thanks to haste being on the EK spell-list, but not the warlock one).

Your stated example is a perfect example of this. We're spending an invocation on mage armor (at the expense of? we're already invocation heavy), and getting our dex to 18, but we're still "maxing charisma, and grabbing resilient:constitution"? Assuming starting dexterity + charisma of 16, and that we use an ASI for resilient we're not gonna be "maxing charisma" until level... 12 (and only if we go variant human)? You really think this is not significantly better than the Hexblade hitting their 20 charisma at level 8? Increasing their attacking and spellcasting ability simultaneously, while also not worrying at all about AC (saving an invocation here also)?

I really wonder what kind of kind GM's people have that in their games PhB beast-masters and pureclass non-Hexblade warlocks are tearing stuff up.
I'll be nice and put aside this obvious passive-agressive sentence, since you have absolutely nothing to back it up anyways, you're just ridiculing yourself here, it's your choice.

You just theorycraft things, but forgetting half the features of Warlocks.
If you want to take the Blade Pact simply because you want to occasionally hit things with a weapon, then you don't care about being optimized in melee weapon attacks, you'll use it mainly to brush off some enemies that come too close to you.
If you want to take the Blade Pact to optimize melee attacks, then you're not more MAD than a Paladin (in fact even less) or Ranger or an Arcane Trickster that wants to capitalize on Magical Ambush later.
And those all work perfectly fine.

What you don't have as standard AC because you don't have heavy armor and shields, you can easily compensate with spells. Just search for old threads, long before Xanathars, before even SCAG, you'll see people praising Bladelocks. Of course grabbing one level of Fighter (or Cleric) was making it easier for that particular aspect, like one level of Rogue (Expertise) / Sorcerer (Constitution, Shield, BB) / Fighter (Constitution, proficiencies) / Cleric (prepared spells, armors, cantrips) was and is always a quick and efficient way to improve some aspect for many builds of many classes.

But Bladelocks have always been perfectly *viable* (as in contributing greatly to parties, as in 'capable of dealing very decent damage reliably') as pure classes, with or without feats.
At low level, grab Mage Armor and False Life Invocations to pair with Expeditious Retreat to use instead of Hex when survival is in question. As you level up, grab Darkness and/or Mirror Image and pick Extra Attack Invocation. Then switch to Greater Invisibility or AoA+Fire Shield combo.
Without feats, you still end with 17 AC. Is it great? No. Is it bad? Neither. Will it be much worse than a 20 AC at higher levels? Absolutely not.
With feats, aim for a starting 14 in DEX and pick Moderately Armor, you now have AC 19, as good as most martials and you can go for a STR build if you fancy it.
And you still have spells to use in addition to that.
Because, you know... You can *swap* Invocations. And you can also *swap* spells. Of course if you never use that you would get in trouble somewhere along the way. XD

So, yeah, whatever happens, you'll probably want to bump your attack stat first so you'll end with max Charisma much later, but who cares? You *decided* you wanted to optimize melee.
And melee =/= "staying in place in the most heated zone of conflict".
Like a Rogue (swarm nemesis), Monk (same), Swords/Valor Bard (keep concentration!), Bladesinger Wizard (same), you have to be a minimum smart about how you fight. Rushing in the middle only works for Clerics, Paladins, Barbarians or Eldricht Knights, and even then there are some caveats.
Of course, if you want to play a Bladelock like you'd play a Paladin, then you'll get disappointed. They don't have the same tools, so they don't play the same way.

Also, you have been clearly deforming what I said, which honestly don't surprise me considering the tone of your post.
Nobody is arguing that Hexblade is not the best Patron for Bladelocks. Seeing as it is the best patron for many kinds of Warlocks anyways (unless of course you want some feature/spell that is given only by another one or you care about something else than damage).
If you had really been reading my posts, as in sincerely reading and paying attention, you would have realized already I'm one of the most active proponents of ways to make you as little dependant of stats as possible, hence my love for Shillelagh or Sacred Weapon for example.
And you could also have noticed that I do support the choice of Hexblade for OP, because his character concept relying on many classes mean ASI will come scarcely and late, and he may want feats, so he wants a SAD character.

But you said that non-Hexblade Bladelocks are MAD, as in "dependant of several attribues in a significant, thus problematic, scale" and that's just wrong. There are in the perfect averageness of attribute dependency.
It's up to each player to decide how to adjust the balance thanks to Invocations and spell choices to decide how MAD they allow themselves to be.
You just won't play it like you would a Barbarian, so what? If you want to play like a Barbarian, just play a Barbarian. XD

In summary, my point is (with typo correction)...


In other words, it's not that non-Hexblade Bladelocks are MAD, it's rather that Hexblade Warlock is incredibly SAD, like a Fighter but with a whole full stack of magic on top.
And being that SAD means in turn missing ASI (or waiting for them a long time) is not that big a deal. :)

In other words, Bladelocks have average MADness, while Hexblade anyLock is technically SADder than most classes, including Fighters or Rogues, because spells.

---- And that's the end of digression. :)

@OP sorry for that. Hope you found enough ideas in the thread to build a nice character. Don't hesitate to come back for pre-game questions or post-game feedbacks and have fun!