World Cup

[dps]

No thread yet?

Rooting for Iceland since the US chocked in qualifying. Satisfied with the tie with Argehtina.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm rooting for Brazil :smile:

[Scarlet Knight]

No USA...No Italy...*sigh*.

OK, I'm putting 100 quatloos on Belgium!

[The Fury]

My team of choice is Mexico. Though their first match is against Germany... Ugghh!

I can never get behind Germany because of the first ever World Cup match I watched. It was the USA versus Germany, Germany dominated because they're consistently good in World Cup and as the joke goes, the US doesn't even understand the sport. I've been salty about it ever since though, a big part of it is because the TV broadcast showed the US side of the stands and the wave of despair when Germany scored the final goal. There was even a man dressed as Captain America crying. Go to hell Germany, you made Captain America cry!

[Cristo Meyers]

Picking and choosing looking for decent matches since the US isn't in it this go-around, though I've taken a shine to Iceland after their game with Argentina. I caught their UEFA tourney run a few years ago too. Guess I just love an underdog.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Volkswagen's ad department, though. A series of commercials essentially rubbing it the US' face that they're not in the tournament? Brilliant! Who thought this was a good idea?

[Scarlet Knight]

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Volkswagen's ad department, though. A series of commercials essentially rubbing it the US' face that they're not in the tournament? Brilliant! Who thought this was a good idea?

Probably the same people who gave us "Dieselgate"...

[Cristo Meyers]

Probably the same people who gave us "Dieselgate"...

If we'd been actually beaten, I wouldn't be so annoyed. But the reason we're not in the Cup this year is because, quite frankly, we screwed it up. That's why the new US men's team has been almost completely rebuilt from the ground up. These ads just feel like kicking us while we're down.

So... Mexico vs Germany. I don't actually like Mexico much as a team, but damn if I wasn't happy to see that result. Go El Tri.

[The Fury]

MÉXICO! YES! YES!

Maybe I'm only on board with them because we share a continent, but in any case I'm happy with how it ended.

[otakuryoga]

ok, WOW, that first goal from Brazil?
candidate for best goal of the tourny
that was nuts

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I’m rooting for Germany, so this morning was a little rough. Now I’ve got to hope Sweden and Korea do pretty poorly. :smalltongue:

[Aedilred]

There's a thread over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561493-FIFA-World-Cup-2018). The two should probably be amalgamated.

Mods?


ok, WOW, that first goal from Brazil?
candidate for best goal of the tourny
that was nuts

Well it's a bit early for that - after all we have a lot of matches and hopefully a lot of goals to come!

Besides which and good as it was I didn't think it was markedly superior to Nacho's goal against Portugal on Friday.



I can never get behind Germany because of the first ever World Cup match I watched. It was the USA versus Germany, Germany dominated because they're consistently good in World Cup and as the joke goes, the US doesn't even understand the sport. I've been salty about it ever since though, a big part of it is because the TV broadcast showed the US side of the stands and the wave of despair when Germany scored the final goal. There was even a man dressed as Captain America crying. Go to hell Germany, you made Captain America cry!

If it's any consolation, it's not just American teams that get humiliated by Germany...

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2014/07/the-2014-world-cup-part-ii/f01_51869464/main_1200.jpg?1420498290

[otakuryoga]

Well it's a bit early for that - after all we have a lot of matches and hopefully a lot of goals to come!

Besides which and good as it was I didn't think it was markedly superior to Nacho's goal against Portugal on Friday.



and thus i said candidate

[Delta]

Well, so far, being a Germany fan hasn't exactly been smooth sailing either :( #lifeismeaninglessandfullofpain

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, so far, being a Germany fan hasn't exactly been smooth sailing either :( #lifeismeaninglessandfullofpain

Aaaaaand now you know how the rest of the world feels....

[farothel]

No USA...No Italy...*sigh*.

OK, I'm putting 100 quatloos on Belgium!

I'm for Belgium too, but that's probably because I am a Belgian. You have to root for the home team if they made it in.
Here in Belgium we make a lot of fun about the Dutch who din't qualify, while we did (in the past it was mostly the other way around and then they made fun of us, so revenge and all that).

[Delta]

Aaaaaand now you know how the rest of the world feels....

Hey, I was already shocked two years ago when we lost against France. It might sound completely silly, but ever since I can remember watching soccer (around '90 or so), I have never seen a German team play a tournament match where they where the better team, but lost. I'm not kidding, in almost 30 years, you could argue that was the first time that happened, it goes to show how ridiculously lucky this team has been through the years.

[truemane]

I love the World Cup. I get into it every time. I read articles and opinions, check the odds for and against any given thing happening, build spreadsheets to track results and predict brackets.

It's so much fun.

I mean, I hate soccer. I would rather bang my head against concrete for 90 minutes than watch a footie game.

But I love the event.

It's fun because it's basically a series of shots in the dark. Differences in team ability at this level are so small that single games (even the three games for Group Play) are really too small a sample to be able to tell anything meaningful.

It's like building an epic level party in D&D and then a perfectly matched epic level challenge and then deciding the entire fight with a couple of coin tosses.

So the results of this particular weighted number generator (as Randall Monroe (https://xkcd.com/904/) would have it) don't MEAN anything, really, but they create compelling narratives. Either the titanic team has claimed its destiny or the plucky up start gas stolen their throne.

So much fun.

[Cristo Meyers]

Aaaaaand now you know how the rest of the world feels....

At least the Germans aren't as bad off as the Argentinians. If Iceland pulls out a win today Argentina is looking at not getting out of the group stage.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'll take "Things I Never Expected To Hear" for $200, Alex.

How many major clubs are going to want to go back to Russia after this year? Moscow may never win another hosting bid again.

[Aedilred]

Hey, I was already shocked two years ago when we lost against France. It might sound completely silly, but ever since I can remember watching soccer (around '90 or so), I have never seen a German team play a tournament match where they where the better team, but lost. I'm not kidding, in almost 30 years, you could argue that was the first time that happened, it goes to show how ridiculously lucky this team has been through the years.

The really impressive (and/or annoying) thing about Germany has always been that even when they've apparently been rubbish (notably 1998-2004 when they arguably only had two world-class players in Ballack and Kahn*) they've generally still been good at major finals. Only in Euros 2000 and 2004, where they were in the groups of death, and played off the park by great Portuguese and Czech teams, have they looked poor and performed poorly.

But for most of their history they have succeeded by playing safe, percentage-based games, grinding oppositions down through discipline, patience and ruthless efficiency**. Even when they lacked star quality they still executed their key skills properly and rarely got starstruck, which allowed them to overcome more naturally talented teams. I don't think it was luck - although they got the odd slice as everyone does - rather it was exhaustive preparation and hard work.

Then in 2010 they exploded out of nowhere with a young team and shocked the world not just by how good they were but by playing expansive, entertaining, attractive, attacking football. The problem with this, as Brazil, Spain, France, et al have known for decades, is that it's much easier for this to go wrong. For a while, the German team was so talented that it rarely did, but there are holes starting to appear in this team which render it more vulnerable than it has been for a while.

From the team that played against Argentina in the 2014 final, they're missing five of their starting XI and all three of their subs. Their replacements don't look quite up to the same mark, while Ozil, Khedira and Mueller look increasingly tired.

FWIW, I still think Germany were the best team at Euro 2012 and were unlucky to go out to Italy in the semis. But they didn't play at their best in that game, it must be said.

Having said all that, they've only played one game so far, and that against Mexico. Mexico have been good for years, with a solid defence and a midfield which can pass it around like Barcelona when they're in the mood - but have lacked a cutting edge. They have been a habitual banana skin for top teams in the World Cup group stages and it's remarkable that they've never won a knockout game. So it's probably a bit early to be pushing the panic button.


I'll take "Things I Never Expected To Hear" for $200, Alex.

How many major clubs are going to want to go back to Russia after this year? Moscow may never win another hosting bid again.
Has something happened that I've missed?


*Matthaus was past it, as was Klinsmann. Bierhoff gets an honourable mention.
**and nice red uniforms?

[Vinyadan]

Hey, I was already shocked two years ago when we lost against France. It might sound completely silly, but ever since I can remember watching soccer (around '90 or so), I have never seen a German team play a tournament match where they where the better team, but lost. I'm not kidding, in almost 30 years, you could argue that was the first time that happened, it goes to show how ridiculously lucky this team has been through the years.

What about the defeat against Italy, six years ago? Germany was the better team, but somehow let itself be fooled. And I think that the defeat against France in 2016 at least partially depended on the game Germany had previously played and won against Italy; Italy was even worse than in 2012, but somehow put so much stress on Germany, that Germany didn't have the time to recover on the psychological (and maybe physical) level, before the game against France. I mean, the game against Italy gave us Joachim Löw making the Italian hands to ask his team what the hell they were doing. https://www.zeit.de/sport/2016-07/europameisterschaft-deutschland-italien-reportage

[Delta]

Against Italy, I felt they were more or less evenly matched. You could make a point about the game, but I never felt like "They should have won this." while against France, it was really more or less one dumb mistake that led to the game happening as it did, I feel like if you let those teams play against each other 10 times, Germany would win 7 or so.

[Delta]

Of course I never doubted for one second that Germany would win this :smalleek:

[GolemsVoice]

What a game! That final penalty, man. Germany was back to their old class most of the game, which gives me hope for further games.

[Delta]

Now if they just managed to get that ball over the line with any consistency they could blow Korea out of the stadium 5-0 or something...

[GloatingSwine]

Speaking of 5-0, I think everyone would have agreed that England would beat Panama, but 5-0 up at half time? That's not supposed to be the English way at world cups....

[Ebon_Drake]

It's coming home!!!!

The English press are going to go nuts about today's result and act like we've already won the tournament. Then we'll either get shocked by Senegal next round or lose to Germany in the quarters. It's the English way.

While I'm realistic about England's actual chances in the tournament, I have to admit it'd be hilarious if we finally managed to win the trophy again under the management of 1996 national pariah Gareth "oh it's saved" Southgate. What a redemption story that would be.

[otakuryoga]

Argentina squeaks by and escapes group play

[Cristo Meyers]

And draws a round of 16 match versus France.

That should be a good match. Hopefully better than France's last match against Denmark. Only caught the second half and, near as I can tell, fell asleep somewhere around the 80th minute.

[Yora]

Wow, looks like Germany is on their way out. They need 2 goals in 20 minutes to get even with Sweden.

Sweden again! They already kicked out Italy.

[Delta]

Wow. That was awful. Germany out on last place in their group and I can't even argue it's not deserved.

[truemane]

I did not see that coming.

This afternoon is the barnburner, though. Serbia and Brazil is going to be a deathmatch.

[Delta]

I can't even explain it. Okay, it was obvious that the team was missing a striker ever since Klose retired, but that didn't stop them two years ago and Löw's system was never really based on a central striker. All those guys on the pitch today can play and almost all of them have played brilliantly in Löw's system in the past.

[Yora]

Everyone has been terrible so far. Except for Uruguay, none of the regular contenders have been doing well. Spain and Portugal both could not have made it too, and I believe Argentina wasn't that great either.

[Vinyadan]

Is Denmark-Sweden a derby?

Also, do you write it Swe-Den?

[GloatingSwine]

Depends who's at home.

Also, surprise result to be sure but Korea's goalkeeper played a blinder. Some really good stops from him. Germany could have had two or three if he'd been slower and less sure of hand.

Wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in a European league next season.

[Jama7301]

Dang, I was hoping Germany would have pulled through to the knockout stages, but the way they played against Mexico and Korea didn't warrant it. I guess Belgium is my go-to rooting interest now.

[truemane]

I'm excited for England's chances, actually. They usually burn bright and flame out in the World Cup, but this time feels different. They seem more focused?

Dunno. I always root for them (until they loose) and then root for Germany afterward.

So GO ENGLAND!

They have a tough road either way, but I think their chances might actually be better if they lose tomorrow's game. Whoever wins the group will (if they win the round of 16) face the winner of Brazil and Mexico. Whoever loses gets the (slightly less daunting task) of taking on the winner of Switzerland and Denmark.

You think maybe both teams will try to lose? They're both going forward no matter what happens.

[Aedilred]

Everyone has been terrible so far. Except for Uruguay, none of the regular contenders have been doing well. Spain and Portugal both could not have made it too, and I believe Argentina wasn't that great either.

Argentina haven't been great, although their goals in the last game were. I'm not sure what the problem with them is, as their ability at the sharp end is almost unparalleled: with Messi, Aguero and Higuain it's hard to see anyone who matches them. France maybe, but they haven't exactly set the world alight either.

Pre-tournament I had France and Argentina pencilled in as finalists based largely on talent. Obviously that's not going to happen now.

Belgium have looked good so far, as have Switzerland. Neither team is exactly World Cup royalty but they are both highly ranked at the moment. Colombia had a shocker in the opening game but I expect them to rectify that.


I am disappointed Sweden have gone through. Normally I would support them but their play has been horribly negative.


They have a tough road either way, but I think their chances might actually be better if they lose tomorrow's game. Whoever wins the group will (if they win the round of 16) face the winner of Brazil and Mexico. Whoever loses gets the (slightly less daunting task) of taking on the winner of Switzerland and Denmark.
I've been hearing this sort of thing a lot. In principle, the loser does get the easier side of the draw. But that's largely based on reptuation (see above: France, Argentina and Brazil aren't their usual selves) and it relies on getting through the round of 16.

That's not a given. Any of the teams in contention to win Group H are capable of beating England on a good day, but England stand a much better chance against Japan or Senegal than they do against Colombia (I don't know what to make of Poland right now). There's no point gettin a theoretically easier match in the quarters and semis if you flame out in the second round.

I do also think there's a momentum and morale element to it. Putting in a good shift against Belgium will inspire the team with confidence, especially since there hasn't been anyone significantly better than Belgium in the competition so far. Losing dismally, even if there are strategic reasons for it, will not only depress that but also give other teams clearer pointers on where England are vulnerable.

[otakuryoga]

awwww, Senegal, you let me down :smallsigh:

well, i guess with Senegal not making it my rooting order now goes
1) Japan (no change)
2) Croatia
3)Switzerland
4) England

[Aedilred]

awwww, Senegal, you let me down :smallsigh:

well, i guess with Senegal not making it my rooting order now goes
1) Japan (no change)
2) Croatia
3)Switzerland
4) England

You're not Australian, I hope..?

[Scarlet Knight]

I got Japan in my office pool! Yeah, I picked last...

Bonzai!

[Bartmanhomer]

I hope Brazil is winning so far? I really want USA to play the World Cup. :frown:

[otakuryoga]

You're not Australian, I hope..?

nope

---and i just realized all those teams i listed use red/white...weird

[farothel]

For me as a Belgian it's still very easy. Belgium all the way. :smallcool:

And now the people who put the signs at our border with the Netherlands saying 'World Cup starts here' can now do the same at our border with Germany

[Cristo Meyers]

Welp, that's the end for Argentina. Earliest elimination I can remember, though that's not saying much since my first World Cup was 2010.

I kinda feel bad for Messi. I remember after the Copa America Centenario in 2016 he said he was going to retire from international ball, and it seemed like all of Argentina loved him again despite losing to Chile in the final.

They played the US here in Chicago for the match before. I still regret not taking the opportunity to go see that.

Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but I can't help but think that Argentinian football is going to forget all that again and lay all the blame on his shoulders. After all, it seems like they keep expecting him to basically carry the team as it is.

[Yora]

This needs to become an image meme.

https://www.chiemgau24.de/bilder/2018/06/27/9987873/1184854655-fussball-wm-2018-suedkorea-gegen-deutschland-bilder-und-noten-Pya6.jpg

[Cristo Meyers]

This needs to become an image meme.

https://www.chiemgau24.de/bilder/2018/06/27/9987873/1184854655-fussball-wm-2018-suedkorea-gegen-deutschland-bilder-und-noten-Pya6.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

I was working from home that day, so I had the Mexico game on. My boss was also working from home, and had it on the radio. Then she starts Skyping me, as the whole thing unfolds.

I'm sitting here, working, watching the game, and Skyping my boss as she celebrates the South Korean goal. It was more than a little odd.

[Gwynfrid]

As a Frenchman I'm supposed to root for the home country, which is sometimes tough because they have a knack to disappoint. Not today. Most exhilarating game in a long time!

[Yora]

That goal was really interesting.

Goal! No, offside! Assistant says unclear. Referee is watching the video. Goal!

[Cristo Meyers]

That goal was really interesting.

Goal! No, offside! Assistant says unclear. Referee is watching the video. Goal!

It was even better if you were watching the Mexico match. Our announcer had almost started completely ignoring the match at hand, all of a sudden you could see large numbers of the spectators whip out their phones almost in unison, and then everyone starts celebrating like Mexico just won.

One of the cameramen caught two guys phone-watching, it was a few seconds before they noticed they were on camera, looked up, and looked like two kids with their hands caught in the cookie jar. :smallbiggrin:


As a Frenchman I'm supposed to root for the home country, which is sometimes tough because they have a knack to disappoint. Not today. Most exhilarating game in a long time!

Pavard's goal was a beauty. Not bad for your first international goal. Hope he gets it on tape or something.

[farothel]

That's why there is the VAR
Sorry, forgot. Don't mention the VAR. :tongue:

[Cristo Meyers]

That's why there is the VAR
Sorry, forgot. Don't mention the VAR. :tongue:

Maybe it's the American in me, but I'll still go to the mat defending the VAR. Every time I've seen it used thus far it's helped insure the proper call was made.

[Gwynfrid]

Pavard's goal was a beauty. Not bad for your first international goal. Hope he gets it on tape or something.

Well, Di Maria was no slouch either. Then there were two really cool goals from Mbappé, the first one an individual exploit, and the second a demonstration of perfect team action. Overall, we got treated to some truly beautiful play.

[Aedilred]

Welp, that's the end for Argentina. Earliest elimination I can remember, though that's not saying much since my first World Cup was 2010.
They went out in the group stage in 2002. That was a tough group, containing England (at probably their recent peak), Sweden (at theirs) and Nigeria.

There was some added spice. England hadn't beaten the Swedes since the 60s. Argentina were widely tipped as the pre-tournament favourites, with an impressive generation of players, and they and England had a history probably even sharper than that between England and Germany.

In 66 a filthy match had the England coach calling the Argentine players "animals" after the game. In 1986 Maradona scored two of the most famous goals in world cup history to eliminate one of England's best-ever teams in the quarter-finals: the second one of the greatest goals of all time, the first... with his hand. Plus of course there was that war in 82...

In 98 Argentina met a very fine England team in the second round. After an early score each, Michael Owen scored a wonder goal to put England ahead but Zanetti equalised to take the game to extra time. Sol Campbell headed what he thought was the winning goal (sudden death rules were in use at the time) but it was ruled out for a foul by Alan Shearer. Diego Simeone fouled David Beckham, who retaliated with a petulant kick which got him sent off. The match went to penalties and England lost. Beckham found himself the scapegoat for the loss and it took him years to win back popularity with the fans.

Argentina duly beat Nigeria 1-0 while England and Sweden battled to a 2-2 draw. In the next round of group games, England put in a truly great performance to shut Argentina down and win 1-0 (Beckham, penalty), while Sweden beat Nigeria 2-1. With England expected to earn at least a point against Nigeria (and duly playing out a dull 0-0 draw) that left Argentina needing to defeat a very fine Swedish team to secure qualification, and the best they could do was draw 1-1 to flub out in the first round for the first time since 1962 (albeit in 1970 they didn't qualfiy at all).


Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but I can't help but think that Argentinian football is going to forget all that again and lay all the blame on his shoulders. After all, it seems like they keep expecting him to basically carry the team as it is.
I think there was a time when that was the case, particularly from about 2006-2010. I get the impression there is now more of an acceptance that he can't win by himself and although expectations remain high, he is still respected for his ability. I think it also helps that Maradona has become a bit more openly supportive of him. For a long time he was seen as being jealous of his legacy as the greatest Argentinian player ever* but since his stint coaching the team he's quietened down a bit on that front and talked Messi up a bit more.

I suspect Sampaoli will be blamed. He had already been set up to be dumped when it looked like they might fail to clear the group, and it's evident the players have no confidence in him. His selections have been baffling. On paper, Argentina's front three are at least as good as any in the world and it's probably the one area of the pitch where they actually have world-class players capable of delivering. Yet he's resisted playing them all together for all but a few minutes.

It almost reminds me of Del Bosque with Spain, who despite his successes I never thought knew what he was doing, and resolutely refused to play any forward players almost at all, even when his teams were desperate for goals. The difference there was that Spain had an embarrassment of riches in midfield which, although they often lacked a cutting edge, were always going to control possession and create chances.

Argentina do not have that. Mascherano looks a parody of his former self. Di Maria works hard but - despite his brilliant goal today - the quality of his final ball usually seems to be lacking. Biglia is injured. Banega can't do it all by himself, which is why Messi has to drop back to assist. Which is fine if there are forwards ahead of him for him to pass to. Today he just had Pavón, who played ok but doesn't exactly look like the new Batistuta.

Was Higuain injured? Is Aguero not fully match-fit? What was going on?



*I mean, it's still Di Stefano, but let's ignore that for now.

[Cristo Meyers]

In 66 a filthy match had the England coach calling the Argentine players "animals" after the game. In 1986 Maradona scored two of the most famous goals in world cup history to eliminate one of England's best-ever teams in the quarter-finals: the second one of the greatest goals of all time, the first... with his hand. Plus of course there was that war in 82...

In 98 Argentina met a very fine England team in the second round. After an early score each, Michael Owen scored a wonder goal to put England ahead but Zanetti equalised to take the game to extra time. Sol Campbell headed what he thought was the winning goal (sudden death rules were in use at the time) but it was ruled out for a foul by Alan Shearer. Diego Simeone fouled David Beckham, who retaliated with a petulant kick which got him sent off. The match went to penalties and England lost. Beckham found himself the scapegoat for the loss and it took him years to win back popularity with the fans.


Ah. The 'hand of god' I've been hearing so much about.



I suspect Sampaoli will be blamed. He had already been set up to be dumped when it looked like they might fail to clear the group, and it's evident the players have no confidence in him. His selections have been baffling. On paper, Argentina's front three are at least as good as any in the world and it's probably the one area of the pitch where they actually have world-class players capable of delivering. Yet he's resisted playing them all together for all but a few minutes.

It almost reminds me of Del Bosque with Spain, who despite his successes I never thought knew what he was doing, and resolutely refused to play any forward players almost at all, even when his teams were desperate for goals. The difference there was that Spain had an embarrassment of riches in midfield which, although they often lacked a cutting edge, were always going to control possession and create chances.

Argentina do not have that. Mascherano looks a parody of his former self. Di Maria works hard but - despite his brilliant goal today - the quality of his final ball usually seems to be lacking. Biglia is injured. Banega can't do it all by himself, which is why Messi has to drop back to assist. Which is fine if there are forwards ahead of him for him to pass to. Today he just had Pavón, who played ok but doesn't exactly look like the new Batistuta.

Was Higuain injured? Is Aguero not fully match-fit? What was going on?

Thanks for the enlightenment. :smallsmile:

That's a lot of what I was thinking too. I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of football is superficial at best, but even I was going "Wait, where's Higuain? Aguerro? What the heck is going on? I mean, sure, Messi is an incredible player, but 'get Messi the ball' stops working when we're talking about a high/top-tier team like France."

And they're all doing it to a certain extent: Mexico, Portugal, Uruguay. The difference is that, since these are all good teams, you don't notice until they're up against top talent. 'Get Messi the ball' works against the US, but that's because it's still Argentina. The team quality is covering up the flaws in strategy.

Or maybe I'm just armchair coaching. I can never tell. :smalltongue:

[GloatingSwine]

Turns out you can't win a game of football with only a vague hope that somehow if you pass often enough a goal will magically happen (akin to how a cat hopes that if it miaows at the cupboard often enough food will come out of it).

Maybe someone should have told Spain.

[comicshorse]

I suddenly feel a lot better about drawing Russia in my mate's World Cup sweepstakes :smallsmile:

[Ebon_Drake]

Spain/Russia was a dull old game and as close as I've seen to being literally that Simpsons skit. Still, that last penalty save was a beauty and almost made the previous 120+ mins worth it.

[Cristo Meyers]

It felt like Spain was getting back to their better selves late in the game, but by then it was far too late: tired legs, a pitch that was slick as hell, and a Russian defense that for whatever reason just wouldn't break.

[GloatingSwine]

I suddenly feel a lot better about drawing Russia in my mate's World Cup sweepstakes :smallsmile:

I've got Belgium in ours.

Not over for me yet.

[Cristo Meyers]

Just what is the threshold for forcing a PK to be re-shot due to the kicker stopping in his attack? I saw two, one from Croatia and one from Denmark, where it looked like the kicker just full-on stopped. The Croatian one the Danish goalkeeper was calling out too. I couldn't help but agree.

[Aedilred]

Just what is the threshold for forcing a PK to be re-shot due to the kicker stopping in his attack? I saw two, one from Croatia and one from Denmark, where it looked like the kicker just full-on stopped. The Croatian one the Danish goalkeeper was calling out too. I couldn't help but agree.
You are allowed to pause during the run-up but not at the end of the run-up. Once your foot is planted in the kicking stride, you have to kick. However, during the run-up, you are allowed to feint to deceive the goalkeeper, including stopping.

The actual law is (rearranged for clarity):

Once the referee has signalled for a penalty kick to be taken, the kick must be taken. If, before the ball is in play, one of the following occurs:
...
feinting to kick the ball once the kicker has completed the run-up (feinting in the run-up is permitted); the referee cautions the kicker
...
play will be stopped and restarted with an indirect free kick, regardless of whether or not a goal is scored.

I have a feeling this was changed relatively recently to permit it, but I must admit I'm not certain.

ITV had some half-decent pundits in for once and there was some discussion of this after the match, with a couple of them agreeing that the paused run-up is trying to be too clever, and if the goalkeeper holds his ground it puts the kicker at a disadvantage. It seems that keepers have got wise to it and fall for it much less often than they did: I note in particular that Cristiano Ronaldo, who controversially did it a lot earlier in his career, has now basically stopped. I'm not sure if Neymar still does.

[Cristo Meyers]

It feels like it must've changed recently. I have vague memories of a couple of matches where, after they went to penalty kicks, the official called like three out of five for feints like that.

Judgement day is fast approaching for Mexico. As much as I would like to see them advance, I don't think they're going to find the same success against Brazil as they did against Germany.

[Delta]

They did change it a couple of years ago, before it was kind of unclear, now it's clear that you can do pretty much whatever you want while running towards the ball as long as you don't come to a complete stop.

[candys]

Justice was done - Denmark were pretty uninspired as usual, and only survived to get to the penalty shoot-out by effectively cheating (see above)...

Croatia were equally disappointing - they've been so much better, but credit to Denmark for shutting them down.

I don't understand how most (if not all) of those penalty saves were not disallowed though - both keepers were well off their lines before the kicks were taken (including the save during the game)...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Brazil crushes Mexico 2-0, so we still have two of the traditional powerhouses around going into the quarters.

[Bartmanhomer]

Brazil crushes Mexico 2-0, so we still have two of the traditional powerhouses around going into the quarters.

Yay! Brazil is God-Tier! :biggrin:

[GloatingSwine]

Yay! Brazil is God-Tier! :biggrin:

Though someone needs to shove Neymar onto an AFL pitch so he can learn what being tackled really feels like so he'll stop rolling around like a pillock every time someone vaguely taps him.

[Bartmanhomer]

Though someone needs to shove Neymar onto an AFL pitch so he can learn what being tackled really feels like so he'll stop rolling around like a pillock every time someone vaguely taps him.

Well to be honest I haven't watched the World Cup because USA isn't in it.

[Delta]

So, Japan, huh?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nope, Belgium.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't think anyone will begrudge Japan feeling a bit robbed on that one. They did have a very good second half, and two ahead should have at least let them push it into extra time.

I suspect the Belgians will be getting a stern talking to once the feelings of relief have died down, they dominated the first half but left themselves open to counterattacks which nearly cost them what should have been a safe match.

[farothel]

Though someone needs to shove Neymar onto an AFL pitch so he can learn what being tackled really feels like so he'll stop rolling around like a pillock every time someone vaguely taps him.

Rugby pitch, so he doesn't have the advantage of kevlar body armour.

Belgium-Brazil is the next one I'll have to watch. Belgium will have to play better if they want a chance.

[GloatingSwine]

Rugby pitch, so he doesn't have the advantage of kevlar body armour.


I said AFL.

Aussie (no) Rules.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ZtSyb2J6I

[Spanish_Paladin]

Spain out, well we weren't playing at our level in the groups phase so we deserved what we got.

[Aedilred]

Neymar's theatrics are the sort of thing that give the sport a bad name. My distaste for that sort of thing also overwhelms much of the respect I might otherwise have for him as a player (I have similar feelings about Cristiano Ronaldo, although Neymar outdoes him in the simulation stakes).

I would say that I hope Neymar gets his comeuppance, but that's the other thing - he already did get his comeuppance four years ago and he's still carrying on with the nonsense.

Brazil, who seemed to consider it manifest destiny that they win the tournament at home despite their mediocrity in many departments, encountered Colombia - the most consistently impressive team to that point - in the quarter-finals and apparently decided that their best chance of victory was to kick them out of the game. Having been booted from one end of the pitch to the other, Colombia retaliated in kind and things became rather bad-tempered. This culminated in Juan Zuniga sticking a crafty knee in Neymar's back as they went up for a high ball, fracturing a vertebra and putting him out of the competition.

Missing Neymar (and, probably equally importantly but less remarked at the time, Thiago Silva due to a yellow card), Brazil stopped just short of throwing him a full state funeral prior to the semi-final but nevertheless went in piously declaring they would now "win the World Cup for Neymar" and the like. Well, we all know what happened next.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGc0WV1VErbc_dH0LPPz1xjY7JTY7rY oSKQwlNxkJIgC1laGZVfw
http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/808x455/9a0485535b1e2df02f749b1d5e41978a.png

You had to have a heart of stone not to laugh.

We all know the draw is somewhat top-heavy but Brazil look to me to be the weakest side remaining there - though admittedly I haven't seen all their games. France are star-studded and seem to be improving with every match; Belgium are hardly less talented and look to have retained their ability to pull out late winners as well as adding a more competitive edge throughout the match and Uruguay appear impeccably-drilled. Any of them could beat Brazil.

Meanwhile the other side still looks wide open. Switzerland are a good team but hardly one to strike fear into the hearts of men. Russia are riding their luck. Croatia impressed in the group stages but looked out of ideas against Denmark. The Swedes are dreadfully negative, but hard to break down. England clearly lack strength in depth and that could easily be exposed in extra time. Colombia are still a fine team, but so far their shredding of Polans was a one-off and they looked a little off the ball in the other group games.

[AMFV]

Rugby pitch, so he doesn't have the advantage of kevlar body armour.

Belgium-Brazil is the next one I'll have to watch. Belgium will have to play better if they want a chance.

I don't know. I've personally known people who played in both and they've said the hits were MUCH harder in American Football. Probably because everybody is wearing pads and therefore everybody goes as hard as they can. There's a reason that Football has significantly more concussions and that's because people hit significantly harder in that sport.

[Delta]

I don't know. I've personally known people who played in both and they've said the hits were MUCH harder in American Football. Probably because everybody is wearing pads and therefore everybody goes as hard as they can. There's a reason that Football has significantly more concussions and that's because people hit significantly harder in that sport.

It's been explained to me by people who've played both American Football and Rugby that in Rugby, in the end, people just "run into each other", that's tough and brutal without any padding but in the end, your whole body takes the impact so it kind of spreads out. A football tackle, on the other hand, ideally is the guy making that tackle turning his body into a very pointed weapon and ramming that point into you with the highest possible force, leading to your head often being knocked down to the ground with massive angular momentum you don't usually get in the other game.

Now I've never played either so I got no idea whether that's accurate, but from what I've seen of both sports it looks kind of accurate.

[farothel]

I said AFL.

Aussie (no) Rules.



My bad. I thought the A stood for American.

Or he could do some cycling. Those guys fall down on the asphalt at 40-50 kph, get back up, put their arm back into the shoulder socket, grab a reserve bike and go on despite the wounds. And they have to do 4-6 hour stages for 3 weeks every day (2 days off in 3 weeks).

[Delta]

Swedish defender officially announced in an interview they'll be trying to provoke Xhaka until he gets sent off. Not sure about other countries, but if a german player said something like that, I'm pretty sure that guy would be immediately sent home...

[snowblizz]

Swedish defender officially announced in an interview they'll be trying to provoke Xhaka until he gets sent off. Not sure about other countries, but if a german player said something like that, I'm pretty sure that guy would be immediately sent home...

Well maybe the Germans should be vary about the whole "provoking" thing. Sweden is still fuming about the end of the Swe-Ger game...

When gloves come off Swedes are still bloodthirsty barbarians deep down. They like to pretend they are not.

The guy who accidentally gave Germany that last minute free kick got 1000s of racist hatemail immediately after due to having a foreign name.

[Delta]

Huh? What does this have to do with anything?

I'm talking about a player announcing his unsportsmanlike conduct before a game. That's pretty harsh, I just couldn't imagine a German (or English, or US, for that matter) player doing something like that and not being sanctioned for it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

A US player would not get into trouble, given our culture of trash talking anyone and everyone.

Sweden lucks into a goal and wins 1-0.

[comicshorse]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! Not penalties ! :smalleek:

[Delta]

So, an English national team wins a penalty shootout in an important game?

I guess it really is time to grab two of every species and head for the border, cause the end must be nigh.

[GloatingSwine]

Yep. We are officially in the Mirror Universe now.

Though England should practice their set pieces in training as they were little danger in corners or free kicks despite having control of most of the ninety minutes.

[comicshorse]

Well that was unexpected. Also terrifying, nerve-wracking and bloody marvelous :smallsmile:

[Rogar Demonblud]

And we're a step closer to this just being a Eurocup final.

[GloatingSwine]

Brazil are likely to make it another round. Though i’d kinda like to see them meet Uruguay to see if Suarez eats Neymar. He acts like someone’s taken a chunk out of his leg anyway, so the hungriest man on the pitch might as well have a taste.

[Aedilred]

Brazil are likely to make it another round. Though i’d kinda like to see them meet Uruguay to see if Suarez eats Neymar. He acts like someone’s taken a chunk out of his leg anyway, so the hungriest man on the pitch might as well have a taste.

Time for some irrelevant stats!

Brazil are the only team remaining in this tournament ever to have defeated Uruguay in a World Cup knockout game. Uruguay have a 2-1 record against them in world cup finals, winning the final in 1930 and the de facto final in 1950 against them, and losing a semifinal to them in 1970. Uruguay are also one of only two teams to have won every world cup final they've played in (the other team is also still in the running). Should they somehow contrive to lift the trophy this year, it would give them an unimpeachable record of played three, won three in finals.

France's record is even better. Germany, their bogey team, has gone home, and the only other team they've lost to in knockout matches is Brazil. Their record against Brazil is 3-1 (one of the three on penalties). They haven't lost to Brazil in a World Cup since 1958.

Of remaining teams, meanwhile, Brazil have only been beaten by Uruguay and France in knockout matches.

Belgium's record in World Cup finals is thin. Of remaining teams, they have lost to each of England, France and Brazil in knockout matches.

Croatia's is even thinner but relatively more successful. They have lost only one World Cup knockout game, a semifinal to France in 1998.

The Soviet Union regularly made it to knockout rounds but was rarely successful. Of remaining teams, they have lost to both Sweden and Uruguay. Since becoming Russia the team has never played a knockout game at a World Cup.

Of remaining teams, only Brazil has defeated Sweden or England in a knockout World Cup game, and they've done it every time.


So, my predictions...

Uruguay and France will go to penalties. Brazil will thrash Belgium. Croatia will beat Russia, while England and Sweden will be a seven-goal thriller decided in the last minute of extra time. In the semifinals, Uruguay will overcome Brazil and England will overcome Croatia. In a thrilling final, both unbeaten finalists will go at it hammer and tongs and the game will finish 6-6 before going to penalties. All eleven players will take penalties on each side before Suarez picks up the ball in his teeth and launches himself headfirst over the line. A bewildered referee awards the goal because the laws don't say he can't, but sends Suarez off all the same. In the ensuing brouhaha, Harry Kane forgets to take England's last penalty and the game is officially declared a draw by FIFA.

Or alternatively:

England and Sweden play out a stultifying 0-0 draw. Suarez bites Mbappé and gets a red card, but infects Mbappé with rabies. A dispirited and increasingly twitchy French team realise they have no realistic chance of winning the competition and decide to console themselves with hoofing Neymar at every opportunity in the semifinal, while his team-mates tap in goals. Meanwhile Russia beat a tired Croatia and an even more tired England to reach the final. Half the Brazilian players, including Neymar, are mysteriously arrested the night before the final for crimes against hair. Russia cruise to an easy win but are immediately disqualified by FIFA for drugs offences. While this is being sorted out, Cristiano Ronaldo steals the World Cup and refuses to give it back.

[paddyfool]

'Tis folly to prophecy, albeit a folly widely encouraged in sport so that bookies can take the money of those who think they know what's going to happen.

It doesn't even seem to be ending well for so-called "psychic animsls" https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/07/rabio-psychic-world-cup-cat

[Bavarian itP]

Time for some irrelevant stats!

Brazil are the only team remaining in this tournament ever to have defeated Uruguay in a World Cup knockout game. Uruguay have a 2-1 record against them in world cup finals, winning the final in 1930 and the de facto final in 1950 against them, and losing a semifinal to them in 1970.

Uruguay won the 1930 cup against Argentina, not Brazil.


(the other team is also still in the running)

That would be England.



France's record is even better. Germany, their bogey team, has gone home, and the only other team they've lost to in knockout matches is Brazil. Their record against Brazil is 3-1 (one of the three on penalties). They haven't lost to Brazil in a World Cup since 1958.

France failed at the qualification stage in 1962, 1970, 1974, 1990 and 1994, and at the group stage in 1930, 1966, 1978, 2002 and 2010. It's not hard to not lose world cup knockout games if you never qualify for them. France lost also in the quarter finals to Italy, in 1938, and to Austria, in 1934 (Round of Last Sixteen, but it was the first round).

[farothel]

'Tis folly to prophecy, albeit a folly widely encouraged in sport so that bookies can take the money of those who think they know what's going to happen.

It doesn't even seem to be ending well for so-called "psychic animsls" https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/07/rabio-psychic-world-cup-cat

Yeah, I heard about that Japanese octopus which got eaten right after Japan got kicked out.
Although I must say that Japan played very well. Certainly not the push-over most people thought they would be.

As to Belgium-Brazil, Belgium has a chance but they have to play better then against Japan. In any case, we'll know Friday evening.

[Aedilred]

Uruguay won the 1930 cup against Argentina, not Brazil.
Yeah, well... shut up!

That's what I get for doing stats from memory off the top of my head in the middle of the night.

1-1 then.


France failed at the qualification stage in 1962, 1970, 1974, 1990 and 1994, and at the group stage in 1930, 1966, 1978, 2002 and 2010. It's not hard to not lose world cup knockout games if you never qualify for them. France lost also in the quarter finals to Italy, in 1938, and to Austria, in 1934 (Round of Last Sixteen, but it was the first round).

Hence why I'm only looking at knockout games: delving into all the group games let alone the qualifiers would be too much work. Also there is a difference in mentality between a knockout game and the majority of group games, not least because the possibility for a draw is off the table.

Even the most knockout-y of all group games, the 1950 final, still had a slant on it, because Brazil only needed a draw and Uruguay needed a win. I've never watched the footage and it's one of the most mythologised games of all time, so I'm willing to take things with a pinch of salt, but I have certainly heard suggestions that even after it became 1-1 Brazil were content to play at a lower tempo and run out the clock, knowing they'd take the title if the score remained static, while Uruguay were still at it hammer and tongs.

I still count it as a knockout game because you kind of have to, but I'm not sure Brazil did at the time.

[Gwynfrid]

France's record is even better. Germany, their bogey team, has gone home, and the only other team they've lost to in knockout matches is Brazil. Their record against Brazil is 3-1 (one of the three on penalties). They haven't lost to Brazil in a World Cup since 1958.

Indeed, I think the game against Uruguay is a bigger worry for the French than the one against Brazil.

[Delta]

So, Belgium has 1 shot on goal and leads 2-0. I guess that's what you call efficient.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Indeed, I think the game against Uruguay is a bigger worry for the French than the one against Brazil.

I guess not, as France won 2-0. And if Belgium holds on to win, Brazil (!) is gone too.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

That second French goal though. Looked like the Uruguay keeper didn't get a good read on it, and was moving in the wrong direction before he realized his mistake. The next few days might not be great for that guy.

[Delta]

That second French goal though. Looked like the Uruguay keeper didn't get a good read on it, and was moving in the wrong direction before he realized his mistake. The next few days might not be great for that guy.

That sheer amount of crappy goals is disappointing this world cup. Seems like 2/3 of all goals are crappy ping pong goals, own goals, penalties or just random coincidences. So rare do you just see a well played offense with a good finish like the 2-0 for Belgium.

[Cristo Meyers]

Dear US sports announcers:

Focus on the freaking game in front of you. This is the third time I've had the ending of a game I wanted to watch spoiled because you guys can't keep your mouths shut about the earlier match.

Thanks.

I'll probably still watch the re-run of the France/Uruguay match, but still. I guess it's my own fault for sitting down for the last half of Brazil/Belgium rather than wait for that re-run. :smallsigh:

[farothel]

Yeah, we (Belgium) win. Now we only have to take out France and whoever comes from the other side of the table and we're world champions.

[GloatingSwine]

Neymar's histrionics get to go home again. Maybe if he spent less time on the floor he'd have more impact. Especially as VAR finally does its job and denies him a penalty in the 92nd minute.

I have to admit I was sort of anticipating a France-Brazil matchup in the semis, but this will do nicely. (France have been a damn strong side this world cup, much as it chagrins an Englishman to say so).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wow did the refs start sliding Brazil's way there at the end. There should've been at least a whistle on that hit on Hazard.

[Aedilred]

Neymar's histrionics get to go home again. Maybe if he spent less time on the floor he'd have more impact. Especially as VAR finally does its job and denies him a penalty in the 92nd minute.

I have to admit I was sort of anticipating a France-Brazil matchup in the semis, but this will do nicely. (France have been a damn strong side this world cup, much as it chagrins an Englishman to say so).

I think this was Neymar's comeuppance for the play-acting. The boy who cried wolf cried wolf once too often. I noticed that after the referee waved away his first couple of dives he became much less theatrical than usual. I did wonder with that penalty appeal at the end whether had he not gone for the dive he would have been better positioned for a header, or whether the slight touch was just enough to put him out of place and he dived because he might as well.

It is odd that Kompany's bad tackle wasn't punished with a penalty even after VAR. That could potentially have changed the game, although it would still only have made it 2-1 at that point and Belgium were still in a position to go forward at that stage before they got completely knackered towards the end.

Hazard was absolutely sensational. Some of his movement reminded me of Zidane.

No doubt in my mind that Belgium and France are the two best sides remaining at the World Cup. Croatia are a distant third. It's probably just as well for England that both sides did turn out their B-team for the last group game, because on the evidence of this performance, England are nowhere near Belgium's best XI.

[Gwynfrid]

I guess not, as France won 2-0. And if Belgium holds on to win, Brazil (!) is gone too.

I think that game against Uruguay was a closer call than the score makes it appear. They gave France a run for their money, and without this amazing save by Lloris things might have ended differently.

Now, the surprise is Belgium beating a strong Brazilian side! And now France is supposedly the odds-on favorite to win the Cup. Hopefully they won't start to believe in themselves to excess, a typical pitfall for the French. In any case, this looks to be a very exciting game against Belgium. Looking forward to that!

[truemane]

That was an amazing game. That late game save by the Belgian keeper was an absolute game-changer.

This is the first World Cup in history without Argentina, Germany, or Brazil in the Final Four.

[farothel]

That was an amazing game. That late game save by the Belgian keeper was an absolute game-changer.


He had a couple of great saves during the match. At one point Belgium had shot 8 times towards the goal, resulting in 2 goals and Brazil had shot 22 times towards the goal, resulting in 0 goals. Not all of these were due to Courtois (some shots were wildly inaccurate), but still, without him it could easily have been 5-2 for Brazil.

[Yora]

If France ends up winning I'll be hugely disappointed. I really want to see someone new winning for a change. Even if it's England. In the last half century they only made it to the semifinals once. That counts as underdogs, I'd say. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Even if it's England. In the last half century they only made it to the semifinals once. That counts as
underdogs, I'd say. :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't the same apply to Sweden, though? And they've never actually won the whole thing--their best result was runners-up in 1958.

[lesser_minion]

Doesn't the same apply to Sweden, though? And they've never actually won the whole thing--their best result was runners-up in 1958.

I'm no football expert, but Sweden appear to be up to their eyeballs in clear wins over major sides. I have a hard time seeing them as the underdog.

EDIT: OK, on the subject of not being a football expert... I definitely have an easier time seeing Sweden as the underdogs now.

[Gwynfrid]

If France ends up winning I'll be hugely disappointed. I really want to see someone new winning for a change. Even if it's England. In the last half century they only made it to the semifinals once. That counts as underdogs, I'd say. :smallbiggrin:

Tss. England wouldn't be someone new. They won once already, that's just as many times as France. OK, it was a little while ago, but still.

I can understand the feeling, but in that case why not root for Belgium or Croatia?

[Delta]

I can understand the feeling, but in that case why not root for Belgium or Croatia?

I could live with Belgium, but Croatia is just way too unsympathetic for my taste (I gotta admit my personal experience with both Croatian and Serbian soccer fans may well make me biased there)

[Scarlet Knight]

He had a couple of great saves during the match. At one point Belgium had shot 8 times towards the goal, resulting in 2 goals and Brazil had shot 22 times towards the goal, resulting in 0 goals. Not all of these were due to Courtois (some shots were wildly inaccurate), but still, without him it could easily have been 5-2 for Brazil.

Yes, exciting game ! Brazil goes home with a terrible case of " woulda's, shoulda's, coulda's" ...

[Delta]

So I guess it really is coming home, then... not much to say, deserved win for the better team

[Aedilred]

Right, so how does this go again... *consults notes and clears throat*

TWO-NIL, TO THE ENGER-LAND, TWO-NIL, TO THE ENGER-LAND (repeat indefinitely).


So I guess it really is coming home, then... not much to say, deserved win for the better team

While the song remains good, I do find the "coming home" thing a bit of a stretch. Yes, football was, broadly speaking, invented here. But the World Cup? Invented by a Frenchman and first played in Uruguay. England refused to take part until after the war on the basis it was demeaning or something. The currenty trophy was made in Italy.

In fact while the BBC are usually better at not winding me up than ITV, who appear to go out of their way to track down the worst people available for the job, their commentators and pundits did an excellent job of it today with some of the inanity they spouted.

Though first prize for annoyance has to be that bloody trumpeter. If somebody were to remove that trumpet from his hands and insert it in him prior to the next game, nothing of value would be lost.

I still can't see England winning the competition and refuse to get too excited until they're at least level at the end of 90 minutes in the final itself. Belgium and France are both better sides and I think Croatia is at least as good as England. Still, a first semi-final for 28 years is nothing to be sniffed at.

[GloatingSwine]

England found some goals down the back of the settee that weren't from penalties as well.

Admittedly, with little help from Sterling who seemed to let his nerves get the better of him whenever presented with a scoring opportunity.

And yes, ITV need to get in the bin. Constantly interrupting bloody everything for replays and subsequently missing the next bit of the game is infuriating.

[lesser_minion]

I still can't see England winning the competition and refuse to get too excited until they're at least level at the end of 90 minutes in the final itself. Belgium and France are both better sides and I think Croatia is at least as good as England. Still, a first semi-final for 28 years is nothing to be sniffed at.

I'm pretty much in agreement. After last night, I think Belgium deserve to at least make the finals though.

[gooddragon1]

Neymar's theatrics are the sort of thing that give the sport a bad name. My distaste for that sort of thing also overwhelms much of the respect I might otherwise have for him as a player (I have similar feelings about Cristiano Ronaldo, although Neymar outdoes him in the simulation stakes).

I wonder if they could make an olympic sport out of it? It looks like very acrobatic performance art and they have the synchronized swimming event already...? Maybe a panel of 3 judges who hold up red cards for scores above some threshold, yellow cards for a middle threshold, and white cards below that threshold all of which would have a 0 to 10 rating number with one or two decimal places.

I'm not sure the actual incident was so athletic but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP14zlGmvSQ

[GloatingSwine]

So Russia drag another game to penalties but are ultimately unable to put Croatia out.

They've put up a decent fight to get to the quarters though, exceeding everyone's expectations and largely playing pretty good football.

[Cristo Meyers]

And thus the Russian fairy tale ends. Live by the PK, die by the PK.

I thought they might pull it out near the end, they may not have gotten a lot of attacking opportunities but it sure seemed like they made better use of them. Croatia was better on the ball by far, but that only gets you to the net. Still have to finish.

I wonder if the Croatian players are going to be 100% for their match against England. It looked like about three players all dropped right when they went into extra time. Going into a match against England with their backup goalkeeper would be a blow.

[Mordokai]

And thus the Russian fairy tale ends. Live by the PK, die by the PK.

I thought they might pull it out near the end, they may not have gotten a lot of attacking opportunities but it sure seemed like they made better use of them. Croatia was better on the ball by far, but that only gets you to the net. Still have to finish.

I wonder if the Croatian players are going to be 100% for their match against England. It looked like about three players all dropped right when they went into extra time. Going into a match against England with their backup goalkeeper would be a blow.

I, for one, hope Croatia blows it in the next match.

While I don't care for politics one way or the other, they have been insufferable as neighbors so far... imagine what will happen if they actually win WC.

[Scarlet Knight]

Right, so how does this go again... *consults notes and clears throat*

TWO-NIL, TO THE ENGER-LAND, TWO-NIL, TO THE ENGER-LAND (repeat indefinitely).



*The following statement is based on fictional movies and television shows. Any resemblence to real people (living, dead, or dying) is purely coincidental.*

If England does win, I suggest you don't take the trophy without checking it first with a Geiger counter.

[Tentreto]

I've kept off any optimism until now, as its England, but come on England! We actually have a good enough team to have a chance.

I am kinda hoping the final is England Belgium though, just so we can see what happens when both teams decide to play.



As for Russia, they got far further than anyone expected. Beating Spain and reaching the top 8 is certainly something to be proud of. And they pushed Croatia hard enough that England might have an easier time.

[Aedilred]

Not at all sorry to see Russia go out, personally. I think they made it further than they deserved, even.

I can see England beating Croatia. Two games going to penalties in a row is tough on the players and they look knackered, plus they're a bit older than England's anyway. Both teams have ridden their luck quite a bit and I think it will be tight.

This is also the stage in the tournament where strength in depth tends to become a bit more important and England's subs bench is poor. They have managed to avoid suspensions, but niggles or injuries do take their toll and I worry as soon as England have to start making substitutions. Other than Rashford's cameo in the first game, since which he's been a disappointment, only Loftus-Cheek outside the starting XI has really had any impact. I think Croatia are better-equipped in that department.

I can't see either side beating France or Belgium as things stand, but both those teams appear capable of melting down.

[farothel]

Drinks: check
food: check
TV: double check
Ready for Belgium-France

[GloatingSwine]

Dammit, Belgium let me down, they've let their mums down, and they've let themselves down.

[farothel]

And the referee let them down as well. There was one foul just outside the 16 they should have gotten.

[LeSwordfish]

So who is the smart money on for England/Croatia tomorrow?

[Rogar Demonblud]

The 'smart money' would've said England would lose in the quarters once it went to PKs.

Much as it might be fun to watch yet another Anglo-French War, I'm hoping for Croatia to keep up their winning ways.

[comicshorse]

Much as it might be fun to watch yet another Anglo-French War, I'm hoping for Croatia to keep up their winning ways.

A chance to best the 'Auld Enemy' without blood being spilled

Well only a little

[Tentreto]

Welp, so much for the rematch in the final, but France had such a good backline that Belgium couldn't do much.

As for England Croatia, it depends which teams turn up. If its the Croatia who beat Argentina and maybe Russia, it will be too close to call. Anything else, England should win.

But this is England here...

[Gwynfrid]

Well, now there's a chance of the final being a rematch of the epic France-Croatia semifinal in '98.

[otakuryoga]

damnit Belgium you were supposed to send those frogs packing
o well, i was going to be rooting for the winner of Croatia/England in the Final either way

[Cristo Meyers]

damnit Belgium you were supposed to send those frogs packing
o well, i was going to be rooting for the winner of Croatia/England in the Final either way

*Gribbit, in tones of victory* :smalltongue:

Though I find myself drawn to the possibility of an England win, too, honestly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And for the third game in a row, Croatia is headed for extra time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Croatia may have the better score, but the real winners today were Belgium and France. The players look like they couldn't summon the pep to get out of the way of a geriatric tortoise.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, I don't see Croatia beating France.

Then again I don't think England would have beaten France either, and at least this means we don't have to lose to France.

[Tentreto]

Well, this was not unexpected, but it is brutal to lose when you're leading at half time. England were brilliant first half, but beyond that, it was amost all Croatia.
At the very least, we get a true rematch with Belgium, to prove who is actually better when they try, and England fans can at least support Croatia to win.

And lets be honest, most of us were thinking we wouldn't make it out of the group stage...

[Aedilred]

A chance to best the 'Auld Enemy' without blood being spilled

Well only a little

The Auld Enemy is Scotland, surely? Or rather, England is Scotland's "Auld Enemy". Scotland is England's annoying little brother.

[Scarlet Knight]

My winner is Croatia

Every 20 years, the cup winner is someone who never one before...mostly.

[paddyfool]

Incidentally, this will be Croatia's first ever world cup final (and France's third).

[Wraith]

The Auld Enemy is Scotland, surely? Or rather, England is Scotland's "Auld Enemy". Scotland is England's annoying little brother.

Especially when it comes to football...

Scotland hate England.
England hate Germany.
Germany hate the Netherlands.
The Netherlands hate Belgium.
Belgium... hasn't ever gotten this far in a tournament before, so I'm not sure about them. It might as well be England too, by Saturday. :smalltongue:

[paddyfool]

I think Belgium see the Netherlands and France as their main rivals. And from a little googling, I understand that the French see Italy as their rival, Italy sees Brazil as their rival, and Brazil in turn sees its rivals as being Germany and Argentina...

Finally Argentina, to take us almost full circle, has only one team they might relish beating as much as Brazil, and that's England.

EDIT: incidentally, what do the rest of you make of this analysis?

Reasons to be optimistic about England's men's football team for future tournaments:
- Young team
- Did well this time
- Team play as a team
- They appear to have a decent manager
- England won the world under-20 and world under-17 cups last year, so presumably there are more good players coming up

Reasons to be pessimistic:
- Crushing weight of unrealistic expectation may be expected to restart now
- Perhaps a bit overdependent on (a) Kane or (b) set pieces so far as actually scoring goals
- They were a little lucky in the teams they faced
- They're England

[Rogar Demonblud]

The last point is probably the key one. It's hard to shake a legacy.

[Gwynfrid]

I think Belgium see the Netherlands and France as their main rivals. And from a little googling, I understand that the French see Italy as their rival, Italy sees Brazil as their rival, and Brazil in turn sees its rivals as being Germany and Argentina...

Finally Argentina, to take us almost full circle, has only one team they might relish beating as much as Brazil, and that's England.

The French love to beat Germany too. Problem is, they rarely pull that off.



EDIT: incidentally, what do the rest of you make of this analysis?

Reasons to be optimistic about England's men's football team for future tournaments:
- Young team
- Did well this time
- Team play as a team
- They appear to have a decent manager
- England won the world under-20 and world under-17 cups last year, so presumably there are more good players coming up

Reasons to be pessimistic:
- Crushing weight of unrealistic expectation may be expected to restart now
- Perhaps a bit overdependent on (a) Kane or (b) set pieces so far as actually scoring goals
- They were a little lucky in the teams they faced
- They're England

They didn't beat any serious contender for the top: They met two, and lost both times. Their achievements were performing honorably, avoiding falling apart, and beating incredibly depressed expectations. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's nothing extraordinarily good either. Next time, the bar will be much higher.

[Aedilred]

Every 20 years, the cup winner is someone who never one before...mostly.

Depends when you start the count.

The first World Cup was in 1930 and was won by the de facto defending champions*. Twenty years later was 1950, when they won it again. In 1970 it was won by Brazil, for the third time, and in 1990 by West Germany, also for the third time. 2010 was the first time a new winner appeared on that cycle.

Years ending in 4 started promisingly, with two fresh winners in 34 and 54. But then 74, 94 and 14 saw Brazil and Germany claim more titles each. The same goes for years ending in 6**, which saw England win their title in 66 followed by Argentina in 86 (second title) and Italy in 06 (fourth).

Years ending in 2** are a total washout. Brazil (second), Italy (third), Brazil (fifth).

Now, if we start the count in years ending 8, we've had a new winner every twenty years except in 1938, when Italy won it for the second time.

So the "new winner every twenty years" only works on one twenty-year cycle and isn't wholly reliable there.

We've had first-time winners in 30, 34, 54, 58, 66, 78, 98 and 10. I can't see a pattern there but if anyone can spot one, feel free to flag it up!


There is no flawless barometer for determining winners based on historical precedent but only one team has ever won the World Cup before hosting one (five teams won their first title in a World Cup they were hosting). That was Germany in 54.

Croatia have never hosted and therefore France, having hosted twice, are massive favourites. Also, France are by some measure the better team I think. But that's largely irrelevant compared to historical patterns!


*This is not as silly as it sounds. The 1924 and 1928 Olympics were retrospectively counted as honorary world titles, which is why Uruguay wear four stars despite only having won the World Cup twice.
**Note that there was no WC in 1942 or 1946 so there are fewer tournaments on these cycles.

[Maelstrom]

I know FIFA is shady and all, but if someone is able to come up with a valid algorithm/pattern... well ;)

Anywhoo...glad it's Croatia vs France...makes for a better game with the two contrary styles. Honestly, I think England vs France would have been a bit of a snoozefest (I'm really loving watching Croatia play -- their ball control and movement is gorgeous!!)

[paddyfool]

Plus their strip makes them look like a team of Tardises with little red legs if you squint a little.

[farothel]

Belgium managed to get 3rd place. The highest they ever got. Next time world champion.

[Gwynfrid]

Belgium was clearly the superior team today. Overall I think they were the second best team in the tournament, not far behind the French. Croatia might prove me wrong tomorrow...

[Aedilred]

Belgium was clearly the superior team today. Overall I think they were the second best team in the tournament, not far behind the French. Croatia might prove me wrong tomorrow...

Unless Croatia play absolutely out of their skins I think it'll be a tall order for them to prove themselves a better team than Belgium. They've been fine, but they have never quite clicked into gear since that glorious thrashing of Argentina. Since then they've struggled to overcome pretty mediocre opposition, and every team they've faced in the knockouts, none of whom has been top-drawer, has taken them to extra time.

I haven't seen all of Belgium's games but when I have they've looked quite a bit better.

[Tentreto]

I think despite France being probably the better side, I'm supporting Croatia, as a side that managed to reach the final through guts and being an underdog.

Being British has absolutely nothing to do with it...

[factotum]

Unfortunately, despite your support, Croatia lost 4-2. Kind of says to me that even if England had beaten Croatia in the semi-final they would likely have fallen to the French onslaught!

[otakuryoga]

good thing for the french goalie that his world class brainfart didn't cost them
he would have had to join the foreign legion for safety if it had

full credit to Mandzukic on that play though..he completely flabbergasted the guy by not giving up on the play

[paddyfool]

Too bad for Croatia, but still they can hold their heads up high as the only team from the Balkans to have ever made it to the world cup final. I'm sure they'll be gunning for the European cup when that comes around as well.

[Gwynfrid]

An exciting game to watch, warts and all. That was far from the French side’s best in this tournament, but it was enough, with room to spare in the end (that colossal blunder from Lloris, who had been close to perfect until that point...)