A Skillful Gish

[lylsyly]

Good Day gentlebeings in the playground.

Got a new gestalt campaign coming up. We will go from 1 to 20. Thinking about playing a Skillfull Gish.


Anthropomorphic Brown Bear Druid ??//Battle Sorcerer ?? (no clue on Prestige Classes but he will take some) Melee/BFC/Utility all in one

Human Half Dragon Barbarian 20//Fighter 20 (no prestige classes) and he is dead set on this

Killoren Woodling Cleric 20//Feat Rogue 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Ranger 17 (no Prestige Classes) Archer

Spellwarped Human Scout 3/Rogue 17//Spellthief 20 (no clue on possible Prestige Classes but she will take some) focusing on the sneak/trap disarming stuff and TWF/Sneak Attack

My current thinking:

Human Blue Dragonspawn Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Chord 9//Duskblade 13/Io7V 7 (if I can swing it) and focusing on face/knowledge skills.

I would use all my Duskblade slots on damaging spells and all my Bard side slots for utility/bfc spells and fueling Abj Champ’s Arcane Boost when needed.


Sources: All 3.5 and Un-superseded 3.0 first party is allowed but setting specific and drag mag (3.0/3.5 era only) is by DM approval

Gestalt: NO flipping of classes from one side to the other. Can do two prestige classes at once.

Ability Scores: 10+2d4 or 32 point buy. If you don’t like the scores you roll you can switch to point buy. No score may EVER exceed 20

Skills: Once a class skill ALWAYS a class skill. Open Lock included in Disable Device. We use Stealth and Perception ala PF.

LA Buyoff: we do it at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. Up to +3 is easy, never more than 1 level behind and catch up completely by level 17/18. Kinda moot at this point since we are all taking +3 templates

Leadership is banned, sadly Glibness is banned too.

Optimization: Low to mid, want cheese? Justify it! He is fairly lenient about races and templates but that is about it.

Magic Items: No item that improves ability scores are allowed


Skills: we roll for every freaking thing.

Encumbrance is counted, we even have to account for our food and water.

Encounters: You’ve heard of Tucker’s Kobolds? Have you ever heard of Tucker’s Orcs? Ogres? Dragons?

He will really play the bad guys for everything they got.

My biggest concern is balance my feats to benefit both sides of the build.

Impress me Playgrounders, by all means show me a better skillful gish. BTW I really don’t like Beguilers although I would consider it. Pretty much dead set on Duskblade 13.

Thank you for your time/consideration.

EDIT: Should have added a couple of things. CRITs = we do not roll to confirm, you roll it you get it. And I may be able to pull a Red Dragonspawn by buying off the extra point of LA at level 3. I will be trading out music stuff for clear upgrades.

[Goaty14]

Methinks making a gish isn't hard with gestalt on the table. You can probably run a pure caster//pure sneak and do just fine. Actually, I'd recommend you do caster//sneak to not overshadow everybody else in the party.

The real art of the gish is not doing it in gestalt.

[lylsyly]

Methinks making a gish isn't hard with gestalt on the table. You can probably run a pure caster//pure sneak and do just fine. Actually, I'd recommend you do caster//sneak to not overshadow everybody else in the party.

The real art of the gish is not doing it in gestalt.

Of course its not hard in gestalt. I do it all the time in nongestalt games (I play mostly gishes). We already have the sneak role covered. No-one is covering face. That's why I didn't go Sorcadin on one side and straight duskblade on the other. I also considered Feat Rogue 20//Duskblade 20.

Overshadowing is not the build. It is how you play the build.

[AnimeTheCat]

Would your DM allow something like beguiler/rogue//wizard/ultimate Magus? I only asked because I've known a few DMs to allow theurge classes so long as the other side remains non-magical.

Alternatively, maybe something divine and something skillful? Cloistered cleric//beguiler maybe? Could get some useful buffs from devotion feats and can get really good mileage from DMM. Maybe beguiler or rogue//paladin of freedom? Pick up the feat that lets you cast paladin spells more quickly.

There are lots of options, just depends on your flavor of skill use.

EDIT: well, I'm dumb and can't read. Ignore beguiler then, bard is ok too. I burnt myself out on bards a few years back, so I'm kind of tired of them personally which shapes my opinions. Have you considered factotum or artificer? With "once a class skill, always a class skill" those two classes could be pretty useful I think.

[lylsyly]

Would your DM allow something like beguiler/rogue//wizard/ultimate Magus? I only asked because I've known a few DMs to allow theurge classes so long as the other side remains non-magical.

Alternatively, maybe something divine and something skillful? Cloistered cleric//beguiler maybe? Could get some useful buffs from devotion feats and can get really good mileage from DMM. Maybe beguiler or rogue//paladin of freedom? Pick up the feat that lets you cast paladin spells more quickly.

There are lots of options, just depends on your flavor of skill use.

EDIT: well, I'm dumb and can't read. Ignore beguiler then, bard is ok too. I burnt myself out on bards a few years back, so I'm kind of tired of them personally which shapes my opinions. Have you considered factotum or artificer? With "once a class skill, always a class skill" those two classes could be pretty useful I think.

Never played Artificier or Factotum and don't want to fool with a new class. Getting me to play a divine class is like pulling teeth (it's a personal thing). I just want as much out of combat utility as I can get without stepping on the sneaks toes. Thought I had a pretty good idea.

[AnimeTheCat]

Never played Artificier or Factotum and don't want to fool with a new class. Getting me to play a divine class is like pulling teeth (it's a personal thing). I just want as much out of combat utility as I can get without stepping on the sneaks toes. Thought I had a pretty good idea.

Well then consider a factotum dip for just one level. The factotum has "Class skills: All " and that makes it probably the best option in a once a class skill always a class skill game.

[Troacctid]

No reason to pigeonhole your Bard spells! You can use them for Arcane Channeling too, remember. This makes something like Lyric Thaumaturge go up in value, because it lets you pick the best Sorcerer/Wizard spells for channeling. And there are some nice gishy Bard spells, like Bladeweave.

I don't like Abjurant Champion as much in gestalt because you don't really get full value out of the full BAB. I think you could skip it. One of the fun things about gestalt is you don't have to worry so much about making sure all your levels advance casting, because you can just take the casting class as the other side—that opens up a lot of less conventional gish choices like Spellsword, Raumathari Battlemage, Havoc Mage, or Swiftblade. I'll also recommend checking out Urban Savant, which is always nice in a skillmonkey build, especially one focused on knowledge and face skills.

[lylsyly]

Well then consider a factotum dip for just one level. The factotum has "Class skills: All " and that makes it probably the best option in a once a class skill always a class skill game.

You do make a good point. I will consider it. Thing is, I get access to Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm), Forgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/forgery.htm),Handle Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm), Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm), Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm), Open Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/openLock.htm),Ride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm),Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm),Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm), Survival (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/survival.htm), and Use Rope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useRope.htm) by losing a level of bard casting (and probably SC as well).

Covered by the party sneak
Pretty Useless to me
We use Perception ala PF and everyone gets it

Yeah, I copied the SRD ;D

One of these days I WILL have to play those classes, just to get familiar with them.

[Epic Legand]

I understand you like Duskblade, but I do not understand why. It is a class you take when you want to Gish....and you are not allowed to gestalt. By sprinkling in classes with the right BAB progression, you can support a full caster side and get full BAB, plus an excellent skill monkey. Choosing full caster is not about saying "I fireball him"...It is about self buffing. Since state boosts items are banned, which guy gets a + 6 to something? Not the martial, its a caster who casts a spell.

Possible progression side A) Barbarain 1,Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Monk 4( Kung fu genius or the feat that gets you chr to AC),Rouge 9 ( trade out some martial class for a couple of levels if you want something like skill mastery). ...Side B) Sorcerer or Wizard. You have BAB of 20, and one side full caster and some sneak attack.

[Falontani]

I'm bored and gestalts are fun, so that is why I'm making anything here, however I doubt you'd want to play this one as its a weird gish!

Kaorti | Duskblade: Power Attack, Kaori Resin falchion(B)
Kaorti | Duskblade
Rogue | Duskblade: Combat Expertise
Rogue | Duskblade
Rogue | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade: Disciple of Darkness
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade: Imperious Command
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade: Terrifying Strike
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Prestige Bard
Disciple of Dispater | Sublime Chord: Daunting Presence
Disciple of Dispater | Sublime Chord
Disciple of Dispater | Dread Witch
Disciple of Dispater |Dread Witch: Death Master
Unseen Seer | Dread Witch
Unseen Seer | Dread Witch


With a falchion you have an 11-20 *4 critical range/multiplier (which on a 2d4 is fairly good)
You have access to Arcane Channeling (full attack), 0-7 level spells. You have full BAB. You have 3d6 sudden strikes, 3d6 sneak attack, you can drop 1 dice of sudden strike (or sneak attack) force an opponent to become shaken, any shaken foe is considered flat footed for you. Your Dread Witch levels allow you to make even an Iron Golem with pally levels afraid. By level 18 I believe you should become an undead to get rid of the biggest drawback of kaorti (stuck to kaorti resin) which allows you to take death master, which makes it so that whenever you critically hit you cause your target to be shaken (and you have a 45% per swing to critically hit).

With never outnumbered you can intimidate several people nearby, and with imperious command it causes you to be great at melee crowd control, great at melee damage (since you dont need to confirm you can power attack as much as you'd like and just roll in between 11-20). You are very scary without your magic, and you can still bring your magic to bear through arcane channeling and buffs. Unseen Seer is to grab a divination spell of your choice and throw it on your duskblade list.

Finally you have the skills and skill points that you can if you choose invest in party face other than intimidate.

[lylsyly]

I understand you like Duskblade, but I do not understand why. It is a class you take when you want to Gish....and you are not allowed to gestalt. By sprinkling in classes with the right BAB progression, you can support a full caster side and get full BAB, plus an excellent skill monkey. Choosing full caster is not about saying "I fireball him"...It is about self buffing. Since state boosts items are banned, which guy gets a + 6 to something? Not the martial, its a caster who casts a spell.

Possible progression side A) Barbarain 1,Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Monk 4( Kung fu genius or the feat that gets you chr to AC),Rouge 9 ( trade out some martial class for a couple of levels if you want something like skill mastery). ...Side B) Sorcerer or Wizard. You have BAB of 20, and one side full caster and some sneak attack.

Since monk and rogue are both medium BAB classes how do you get BAB 20?

I like Channeling. My usual Nongestalt Gish is Duskblade 3/Battle Sorcerer 3/Abjurant Champion 5 (advancing Sorc casting)/Legacy Champion (advancing Abj Champ) 9.

EDIT: Talked to the DM, he will allow me to buy off the extra point of LA at level 3. Hello RED Dragonspawn, much better for a quite MAD character:smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

Personally, I like the idea of Duskblade 3 and Spellsword 10, so instead of full attack channeling, you can move action channel, standard action channel, hit the enemy with two channeled spells at once (or three with a Spell-Storing Weapon).

[lylsyly]

I'm bored and gestalts are fun, so that is why I'm making anything here, however I doubt you'd want to play this one as its a weird gish!

Kaorti | Duskblade: Power Attack, Kaori Resin falchion(B)
Kaorti | Duskblade
Rogue | Duskblade: Combat Expertise
Rogue | Duskblade
Rogue | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade: Disciple of Darkness
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade: Imperious Command
Avenging Executioner | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade: Terrifying Strike
Disciple of Dispater | Duskblade
Disciple of Dispater | Prestige Bard
Disciple of Dispater | Sublime Chord: Daunting Presence
Disciple of Dispater | Sublime Chord
Disciple of Dispater | Dread Witch
Disciple of Dispater |Dread Witch: Death Master
Unseen Seer | Dread Witch
Unseen Seer | Dread Witch


With a falchion you have an 11-20 *4 critical range/multiplier (which on a 2d4 is fairly good)
You have access to Arcane Channeling (full attack), 0-7 level spells. You have full BAB. You have 3d6 sudden strikes, 3d6 sneak attack, you can drop 1 dice of sudden strike (or sneak attack) force an opponent to become shaken, any shaken foe is considered flat footed for you. Your Dread Witch levels allow you to make even an Iron Golem with pally levels afraid. By level 18 I believe you should become an undead to get rid of the biggest drawback of kaorti (stuck to kaorti resin) which allows you to take death master, which makes it so that whenever you critically hit you cause your target to be shaken (and you have a 45% per swing to critically hit).

With never outnumbered you can intimidate several people nearby, and with imperious command it causes you to be great at melee crowd control, great at melee damage (since you dont need to confirm you can power attack as much as you'd like and just roll in between 11-20). You are very scary without your magic, and you can still bring your magic to bear through arcane channeling and buffs. Unseen Seer is to grab a divination spell of your choice and throw it on your duskblade list.

Finally you have the skills and skill points that you can if you choose invest in party face other than intimidate.

You should become bored more often. This is great, and a path I never considered. Falchion is usually my weapon of choice. I don't know about the undead thing though, I doubt the DM will buy it. Hmm ...

[Falontani]

You should become bored more often. This is great, and a path I never considered. Falchion is usually my weapon of choice. I don't know about the undead thing though, I doubt the DM will buy it. Hmm ...

undeath is only if you want to strip off the Kaorti Resin armor (light armor closest equivalent is chain shirt)

However it is also for the feat that allows your critical hits to cause enemies to become shaken (which is nice) With that said you could easily take Arcane Strike there

[lylsyly]

Personally, I like the idea of Duskblade 3 and Spellsword 10, so instead of full attack channeling, you can move action channel, standard action channel, hit the enemy with two channeled spells at once (or three with a Spell-Storing Weapon).

Duskblade 3/Spellsword 10/Iot7V 7 (again, if I can swing it) would work. I like this idea too.

EDIT: Just went back and looked, don't like the Idea of losing five levels of Casting. That is a lot for a Duskblade, although, to be honest, it is somewhat made up for by the other side.

[AnimeTheCat]

Have you ever used incarnum or any of the Meldshapers?

[lylsyly]

undeath is only if you want to strip off the Kaorti Resin armor (light armor closest equivalent is chain shirt)

However it is also for the feat that allows your critical hits to cause enemies to become shaken (which is nice) With that said you could easily take Arcane Strike there

If I am reading this right (Fiend Folio pp 108-109) I could summon a Kaorti and get it to perform the Vile Transformation on me. No need to actually be one start out as one. Means I could keep my Dragonspawn and all the goodness it comes with. Bard 4 would get me Summon Monster II.

[lylsyly]

Have you ever used incarnum or any of the Meldshapers?

Occasionally, not really thrilled by it though. What did you have in mind?

[AnimeTheCat]

Occasionally, not really thrilled by it though. What did you have in mind?

Specifically the skill versatility with minimal input. All you *need* is Con. And that's to support the number of melds you can shape. It allows you to change your skill specialty on the fly and it works well when used in conjunction with a class like bard that already gets good skills and skill points. The bonuses would compound the already high skill scores.

[lylsyly]

No reason to pigeonhole your Bard spells! You can use them for Arcane Channeling too, remember. This makes something like Lyric Thaumaturge go up in value, because it lets you pick the best Sorcerer/Wizard spells for channeling. And there are some nice gishy Bard spells, like Bladeweave.

I don't like Abjurant Champion as much in gestalt because you don't really get full value out of the full BAB. I think you could skip it. One of the fun things about gestalt is you don't have to worry so much about making sure all your levels advance casting, because you can just take the casting class as the other side—that opens up a lot of less conventional gish choices like Spellsword, Raumathari Battlemage, Havoc Mage, or Swiftblade. I'll also recommend checking out Urban Savant, which is always nice in a skillmonkey build, especially one focused on knowledge and face skills.

Sorry, missed this one. Just like you missed "NO flipping of classes from one side to the other." ;D. Lyric Thaumaturge is a consideration though.

[Goaty14]

Overshadowing is not the build. It is how you play the build.

Why yes, if overshadowing was the build, I'd name it "Overshadowing", now wouldn't I? I find the notion that a wizard paired with a bunch of commoners still has the potential to accidentally not overshadow them, but I digress. Personally, I'd not ask the DM about Initiate of the 7fold veil.

[lylsyly]

Specifically the skill versatility with minimal input. All you *need* is Con. And that's to support the number of melds you can shape. It allows you to change your skill specialty on the fly and it works well when used in conjunction with a class like bard that already gets good skills and skill points. The bonuses would compound the already high skill scores.

Factotum 1/Totemist 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 10//Duskblade 13/Io7V 7 could actually work.

BAB +16, Arcane 9s, Great at any skill I want to be good at.

Now if I can BS the DM into letting me Vile Transformation my Red Dragonspawn in a Kaorti :D

[lylsyly]

Why yes, if overshadowing was the build, I'd name it "Overshadowing", now wouldn't I? I find the notion that a wizard paired with a bunch of commoners still has the potential to accidentally not overshadow them, but I digress. Personally, I'd not ask the DM about Initiate of the 7fold veil.

LOL, True, but if the wizard spends ALL his spells buffing the commoners .... ;D

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want meldshaping for your skills, incarnate 5 does it -way- better than any number of totemist levels short of 20. Incarnate is probably one of the best classes for the skill-monkey role if you understand incarnum properly. If you've only got room in your build for 2 meldshaper levels, don't bother. Soulcaster is a thing though, so maybe you could make it work.

[lylsyly]

If you want meldshaping for your skills, incarnate 5 does it -way- better than any number of totemist levels short of 20. Incarnate is probably one of the best classes for the skill-monkey role if you understand incarnum properly. If you've only got room in your build for 2 meldshaper levels, don't bother. Soulcaster is a thing though, so maybe you could make it work.

Dang it, I need memory pills. I've played Soul Caster before.

Factotum 1/Totemist 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Soul Caster 8//Duskblade 13/Io7V 7 Because why not. LOL

Getting better!

Called the DM again. No Kaorti for me :(

[AnimeTheCat]

Factotum 1/Totemist 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 10//Duskblade 13/Io7V 7 could actually work.

BAB +16, Arcane 9s, Great at any skill I want to be good at.

Now if I can BS the DM into letting me Vile Transformation my Red Dragonspawn in a Kaorti :D


If you want meldshaping for your skills, incarnate 5 does it -way- better than any number of totemist levels short of 20. Incarnate is probably one of the best classes for the skill-monkey role if you understand incarnum properly. If you've only got room in your build for 2 meldshaper levels, don't bother. Soulcaster is a thing though, so maybe you could make it work.

I would echo what Kleb_Panthera said, incarnate would be far better for augmenting skills, especially since you're already getting your BAB from your duskblade.

[lylsyly]

I would echo what Kleb_Panthera said, incarnate would be far better for augmenting skills, especially since you're already getting your BAB from your duskblade.

Normally I would agree, but I need Bard 7 to get Sublime Chord. Having those 9s and the Duskblade getting to channel ANY arcane spell he knows ... And with Soul Caster now in the mix ...

EDIT: DOH! replace Totemist with Incarnate

[Troacctid]

Sorry, missed this one. Just like you missed "NO flipping of classes from one side to the other." ;D. Lyric Thaumaturge is a consideration though.
You don't need to flip classes between sides. For example:

Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion
Havoc Mage//Warblade
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion
Havoc Mage//Warblade
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion

This build has three different half-casting classes and finishes with casting as a 20th level Wizard, without any of the classes ever "flipping."

[lylsyly]

You don't need to flip classes between sides. For example:

Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Wizard//Warblade
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Visionary Seeker//Green Star Adept
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion
Havoc Mage//Warblade
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion
Havoc Mage//Warblade
Havoc Mage//Abjurant Champion

This build has three different half-casting classes and finishes with casting as a 20th level Wizard, without any of the classes ever "flipping."


LOL, I see what you did there. ;D This DM would never allow it (even tho we ARE allowed to prc on both sides). Nor would he allow Bouncing back and forth between Warblade and Abj Chp to cover Havoc Mages missing caster levels. He's lenient about templates and races, other than that he is a cheese nazi.

If it wasn't for the need to cover the face/librarian role as well I would go with my standard Gestalt Gish consisting of Battle Sorcerer 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Iot7V 7//Duskblade 20. The left side of which is one of my usual non-gestalt gish builds.

BTW: should have told you before this but I use your spreadsheet often, like your house rules and Have been using the Gestalt Theurge in my world for some time (I ban all tier 1 and 2s in my game though). Thank you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Normally I would agree, but I need Bard 7 to get Sublime Chord. Having those 9s and the Duskblade getting to channel ANY arcane spell he knows ... And with Soul Caster now in the mix ...

EDIT: DOH! replace Totemist with Incarnate

Technically what you need is bardic music and 3rd level arcane casting. You could squeeze in all 5 levels of incarnate if you drop the factotum level and 6 levels of bard for 3 of incarnate and 4 in suel arcanamach. Factotum isn't doing much for you anyway as long as you pick up the expanded soulmeld capacity feat and an incarnum focus item for your favorite chakra or two.

[lylsyly]

Technically what you need is bardic music and 3rd level arcane casting. You could squeeze in all 5 levels of incarnate if you drop the factotum level and 6 levels of bard for 3 of incarnate and 4 in suel arcanamach. Factotum isn't doing much for you anyway as long as you pick up the expanded soulmeld capacity feat and an incarnum focus item for your favorite chakra or two.

Our CT game will be over soon and will be replaced by a 3.5 Game. I am going to make it a point to play an Incarnum Build so I can get better at it.

I have been going over my feats and I need more (no flaws sadly). Going to have to drop the Incarnate thing.

Going with Factotum 1/Feat Rogue 2/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Chord +4///Duskblade 13/Iot7V 7.

Game starts Friday and I am stuck with a bunch of overtime this week so I am cutting this one where it stands.

I truly appreciate everyones input.

[Troacctid]

What's Factotum for? The 1-level dip seems out of place here, especially if Int isn't even your primary stat.


BTW: should have told you before this but I use your spreadsheet often, like your house rules and Have been using the Gestalt Theurge in my world for some time (I ban all tier 1 and 2s in my game though). Thank you.
Aww, thanks!

[AnimeTheCat]

What's Factotum for? The 1-level dip seems out of place here, especially if Int isn't even your primary stat.


Aww, thanks!

With the houserule "once a class skill always a class skill" your level in factotum means you'll always only pay one skill point no matter what and every skill has level+3 as max ranks. It was a suggestion for consideration I chimed earlier to be able to cover every skill base with a single class.

[Troacctid]

Feels unnecessary if you're already a Rogue, IMO. You can do better.

[lylsyly]

To meet the face/librarian role I need knowledge skills the rogue doesn't get. And as Anime said, we play once a class skill always a class skill. I only put the Feat Rogue levels in there because I reaallyy need the feats. Otherwise, when I took the Incarnum out I would have stuck with straight Bard, which does have all the skills I need.

[Troacctid]

You already have all Knowledge skills from the Duskblade side, no?

[lylsyly]

Dang it, I need memory pills. (


You already have all Knowledge skills from the Duskblade side, no?


Your right of course. Danged Sometimers. Feat Rogue 2/Bard 8 then.

Any chance of getting someone to be my full time memory aid? ;D