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Lacuna Caster
2018-06-16, 01:40 PM
Ho there, ye gaming grognards! Did any among you enjoy early-edition Champions back in the day? Have any interest in seeing a streamlined revision of those texts? Well, a very special someone whom I'm sure will generate no controversy at all is spearheading just such a project (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/champions-now)!

https://s15.postimg.cc/xielqjw0r/champions_pic2.png

(You can download an outline sketch of the WIP rules here (http://adeptplay.com/sites/default/files/Champions%20Now%20playtest.pdf), for the curious among you.)


What about other Superhero RPGs you've enjoyed? Good, bad, indifferent, recent or old-school, Marvel, DC or file-off-the-serial-numbers originals? Share your thoughts.

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Quertus
2018-06-16, 03:58 PM
Power stunts from the old FASERIP system. Kinda an early version of teaching GMs to say "yes".

SimonMoon6
2018-06-17, 08:56 PM
I played lots of superhero RPGs back in the day. The problem that a lot of them had is the idea of "Let's make a game about mundane people and then toss in superpowers"... which just doesn't work (at least for me). I should mention that I grew up reading comics featuring the Bronze Age version of Superman (among other characters), so I feel that any game system that can not handle the power levels of that version of Superman is not a game system that is really appropriate for a superhero setting. (I'm not saying PCs have to be of that power level, but you need to be able to describe such a character in the system without a bunch of bandaid fixes to the system (like "this advantage that you can take multiple times will double your lifting capacity, so Superman takes it a hundred times, but still only has a strength of 2), and without it getting ridiculous (I roll 1 million d6 for damage...).)

I could mention Superworld, the superhero system from Chaosium, the guys behind Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, etc. This was an example of a game system that just did not work well for superheros (even if a campaign in this system did inspire the Wild Cards books edited by George R.R. Martin who is currently famous for something entirely different).

I could mention GURPS, a game system which is supposed to be universal, but seems to work best at the level of ordinary people who barely have anything special about them. My experience with the superhero rules for GURPS was that they just didn't work (Others disagree, of course) because the system was too devoted to normal people to really work well with super people.

I could mention Villains & Vigilantes, which I never actually played in its actual form, but a friend at the time had his homegrown superhero rules based mostly on V&V. All I remember is that the rules kept changing because this friend refused to ever stop performing major overhauls with the rules.

I could mention Palladium's superhero system, but it also felt a little lackluster.

I could mention TSR's Marvel Superhero RPG, which at least seemed to be on the right track. It had several flaws (some of which I could no longer overlook when choosing a superhero game system, such as agile characters not being harder to hit (though agility added to your hit points, to kind of balance that)) but many strengths (power stunts and kit bashing are two things that I don't see in many other game systems).

But the superhero game system I fell in love with was Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. This game wasn't perfect, requiring certain obvious houserules (energy blasts, for example, will be exactly as accurate as they are damaging... without an obvious houserule) and the character creation system is something no player should ever allowed to touch (too easy to abuse). But the system itself was an incredibly wondrous thing. It handled ridiculous power levels easily (Bronze Age Superman has a strength of 50, for example). It is trivial to translate any fictional character into the rules set. But the rules are not so open and vague as other systems that claim to do the same thing. What you can and can't do is clearly specified (with rules to stretch your limits, but the limits are there). Even complicated powers (like shapeshifting and power copying) are trivially easy to handle in DCH (but a nightmare in other systems, if those powers even exist).

I've only tried Champions once and while it may be a decent system for what it does, it can't compare to the glory that is Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. It doesn't really allow for Superman's power level (at least not with ease and simplicity) and complicated powers are, well, really complicated. Plus, making a character in the first place can be rather time-consuming.

VincentTakeda
2018-06-18, 12:29 PM
Palladium has a very vocal set of detractors and some very obvious glaring flaws. We all know about the horrible layout of the books. We all know the publisher is so afraid of copyright infringement on both the pitching end and the catching end that it amounts to very little public presence in modern media and very little cross pollenation in a genre that loves crossovers like the day is long. Kevin's afraid of his own shadow and possibrobably shamelessly defrauded every robotech fan thats ever lived and never sticks to their release schedules and has poor interaction with their fans... When it comes to supers games everyone seems to play somethin (anything please god) else... and yadda yadda yadda.... and yet...

Dyed in the wool palladium's heroes unlimited with ninjas and superspies fan here. Other than 2e and the occasional foray into pathfinder it's the only system I use these days. Why you ask? Strap on in. Here we go.

• No battlemats. I've found systems that use battlemats also use battlemat mechanics, and while its helpful for players to see where they're at in relation to the enemy and the environment, battlemat mechanics change the headspace in which players operate. While I like that they're strategizing about the layout of the scenery, I've never been a fan of combat that feels like 'this piece can move 6 spaces and this one can move 4 unless I invoke batttlemat power x'

• No unified dice mechanics. Sure I like my game system to be easy to use, but if I'm rolling the same die no matter what i'm resolving, then certain mechanics wont have the granularity that i'm after.

• No dice pools. Dice pools do indeed add infinite granularity, but not in a way that doesnt require a probability calculation tool to properly manage probabilities... Dice pools typically also place the bulk of success more on the modifier to a roll in the moment than in the base stat/ability/skill at hand. This makes 'who the character is' fundamentally less relevant than 'what spin can I put on what I'm doin' and I prefer the system to lean more on the characters identity than building up stacks of roll modifiers. Dice pools probabilities are far too swingy in that something that was next to impossible can become quite likely with a few bonuses in the moment, while things that were challenging can, with a trivial amount of bonuses, become trivial challenges as well. With palladium the things that should be mostly easy are mostly easy, and things that should be mostly hard are mostly hard, but nothing easy is a sure thing and nothing hard is impossible. The spread of probabilities feels both organic and not ludicrous. Nobody's going to make a roll where the odds are one in a thousand and nobody's gonna care about rolling if the odds are 999 in a thousand, so I feel like percentile is an apropriate level of significant digits of probability for players to both enjoy and fear.

• Its an adventure game not a wargame. While there are plenty of powers and abilities that aid in combat, many powers are outlined narratively and intended to be useful outside of battle. The experience point system is built to reward players for doing what the system is built for. Being heroic. Doing heroic things. Sure you can get experience points for kicking somethings butt. Far more experience can be gained by putting your ass on the line for others, being useful, imaginative or clever... Sometimes you get experience Even if you fail!

• No perception checks (mostly)... while some palladium systems eventually did include perception rolls, heroes unlimited does not. Prowl is something that someone uses *against* you... If you do not have natural defenses against the type of sneaking that you're up against, you do not get any chance to detect a successful attempt to sneak on you, and the absence of the roll itself is important on a meta level. If you call for a perception check, it alerts the player that there's something they should be perceiving, so even if they fail, they know 'somethin's out there' when the characters themselves should be oblivious. I know some players dont like surprises, but I personally prefer the possibility of them.

• Percentile skill system with base ability tied specifically to skill. Not all skills are as easy as others. Learning to drive is easier than learning to diffuse a bomb. So a rookie pilot can drive way better than a rookie xenobotanist can accurately mine chemicals from alien plant species... At the same time all skill rolls are bounded so its true that even the best character can make a mistake doing something simple 2 percent of the time. If it weren't failable why have a roll for it in the first place.

• No MDC. Someone at palladium tried coming up with something new and interesting... It didnt pan out so well. But they've latched onto it like a rabid honey badger and won't admit that it didn't go so well. But heroes unlimited doesn't use it and never has, so no worries.

• SDC and hit points. Its a cinematic style of gaming where you can be stabbed with a sword and keep fighting. Once you're into hit points you know you're seriously injured. I don't want to have to track incremental levels of penalties as a player gradually gets tired. I dont know many players who either prefer having to nor do a good job of tracking their own slow descent into being gradually wrecked. But you do need to have a moment where you know you're in trouble. I also prefer hit points to wound and toughness because I like the variety and granularity that one guy might be able to whittle you down in one hit, but you might also be whittle down by a death of a thousand cuts. You feel every point that you lose. Whether thats one of 800 or one of 7. With only 7 you dont get that chance to feel much.

• No fatepoints, few metacurrencies. I'm not a fan where players can spend a virtual coin on awesomeness moments. I prefer the system to be built in such a way that their character as designed has awesomeness moments already. Players shouldn't have a unilateral ability to declare 'its me being awesome and I can't lose time!' Time for me to be amazin! Pressing the win button. I'm also not a fan of awarding win button presses for good behavior.

• No feat trees. Meant to add variety. End up limiting choice. Feat mechanics turn players into one trick ponies which become less fun to play over time. It also takes a long time to build a feat tree so by the time you get to the ability you want to use, you've spent a ton of game time not having it, and when you finally do get it, game's already over and you barely get to use it at all. With palladium you dont unlock new powers at new levels. You get all your options and versatility right out of the gate. It's your effectiveness at these things that grows over time.

• High power out of the gate is optional (unbalanced as a feature not a bug). Even first level characters can be practically godlike. Dont have to spend a ton of time killin rats in the sewers to get your hero on. At the same time you can build a street level schmoe and grind your way through dark alleys if you like. Palladium unflinchingly states that superman will kick hawkeye's butt and that's just something they're gonna have to be ok with. At the same time it allows you to choose which one you want to be, because not everyone would find 'fun' in playing superman and not everyone would find 'fun' in playing hawkeye. Not everyone's going to find 'fun' playing Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit... But you can if you want.

• No 'points to build powers'... The system isn't trying to use meta build points in an attempt to create some sort of 'balance'...

• No bestiary (so far). One of the drawbacks to systems with bestiaries is that players read them, and even players that dont will eventually develop familiarity with the opponent. If you always know what you're up against, what its strengths and weaknesses are, that removes tension and the longer you play the worse it gets to either display new mechanics or purposefully pretend your character doesnt know the function of every single beholder eye despite never having seen or read about one before... With palladium all powers are open to all creatures of all shapes and sizes. Just because it looks like a hamster doesnt mean its gonna fight like a hamster. You never know what to expect. Enemies do not have predictable stat blocks or ability sets.

• Achilles mechanics. Every character no matter how powerful has an achilles heel. No character is built to be immune to everything. Palladiums got a few different mechanics that work independent of each other, so while its possible to build a guy who cant physically be damaged, he can still be stopped by a psychic or a mage or even a street level martial artist using the right abilities. You dont necessarily challenge the player by taking on their strengths head on... Everyone also gets weaknesses. Thats why you need your party. No hero is an island.

• On the other hand Palladium doesnt enforce 'the proper team'... None of these convenient Tank/DPS/Controller/Blaster/Healer or Hammer/Handle/Anvil going on really. I mean sure. You CAN build a party this way. But it's far from necessary and in certain situations far from helpful. You're not going to be stuck in a single role unless you choose to. The party isn't going to need a hole filled and now you're stuck playing a role you don't like.

• Palladium is a megaversal system, not a setting. You can play heroes unlimited on any planet in any environment in any time period. It can do victorian as well as it can do western and it can do captain ahab as well as it can do captain picard. More than that, it can change environments and time periods on the fly mid campaign. My civil war veterans are suddenly on mars?!?! (John Carter) No problem. Probably the one thing it doesnt do very well is 'netrunning', but very few systems do that well anyway. Why don't systems do netrunning well? Don't split the party! Netrunning splits the party.

• Alignment system... I actually like palladiums alignment system... Descriptive not prescriptive... I feel like its built one dimensional and linear but also nuanced. You start on the 'I dont do anything even subjectively wrong' and work your way down. It actually deals with the difference beetween 'I'm objectively good' and 'I do what I consider to be subjectively good'... It adequately addresses 'the moral and ethical limits on my behaviors change based on who i'm interacting with'... You can be the kind of guy who does bad things to bad people and still be considered a 'good guy'. It addresses the guy who legitimately is a bad guy but still behaves honorably. Being selfish sure isnt good, but it doesnt make you evil either. And again... By and large, other than karmic power, if you don't like alignments, you can just simply not use them. Which brings me to...

• No system is perfect, so I dont like systems that arent flexible in the use of houserules, where one little change has far reaching damaging consequences. Some systems are just flat out tough to homebrew. One mechanic is tied to another. Wealth by level... Air breathing mermaids... Some systems are just a pain in the butt to even tinker with. While heroes unlimited is far from the perfect system, the system is very manipulatable. Mostly I've done some changes to attacks per round and initiative and armor rating as damage resistance that while they deeply and and intricately and sometimes fundamentally change the game, the system is built to handle it. If you like building custom powers there's nothin stopping you.. In fact there's a huge fan based webpage called the black vault where palladium players come together to build and discuss new powers. I'm personally not a fan of player built powers, but if you like that sort of thing, the system is amenable to it and there's a strong community built up around it.

Despite its flaws, for me, these are the things that the palladium system does well...

That's my system and I'm stickin to it.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-19, 07:39 AM
...While there are plenty of powers and abilities that aid in combat, many powers are outlined narratively and intended to be useful outside of battle. The experience point system is built to reward players for doing what the system is built for. Being heroic. Doing heroic things. Sure you can get experience points for kicking somethings butt. Far more experience can be gained by putting your ass on the line for others, being useful, imaginative or clever...

...No fatepoints, few metacurrencies... ...I'm also not a fan of awarding win button presses for good behavior.
I'm not really familiar enough with RIFTS/Palladium to comment on most of this, but I would suggest that XP-based rewards for particular types of role-play are just as much a kind of metacurrency as fate points.


I could mention TSR's Marvel Superhero RPG, which at least seemed to be on the right track. It had several flaws (some of which I could no longer overlook when choosing a superhero game system, such as agile characters not being harder to hit (though agility added to your hit points, to kind of balance that)) but many strengths (power stunts and kit bashing are two things that I don't see in many other game systems).
RE recently did a video seminar on the various iterations of Marvel superhero RPGs, and what I rather liked (at least conceptually) about the Karma system was it was basically a numerically-tracked alignment system... with a twist. Killing someone instantly drives your Karma to zero, and Karma can be spent to provide bonuses to rolls and tests... however, in principle, you can spend all your Karma on bonuses to rolls and tests, and then kill someone, and build up your karma again without any extra penalty. So you can actually kill people judiciously within the framework of the system (though how well it fits someone like the Punisher is another question.)

Max_Killjoy
2018-06-19, 09:18 AM
I have an large collection of Palladium products from back in the Robotech, Heroes Unlimited, etc timeframe (late 80s / early 90s), and the original base RIFTs book. It's just not a system I'm at all impressed with, very clunky and zero regard for any sort of balance, but I kept buying as source material for other things.


As for Champions Now... meh, just like HERO 6th, it's another step in their long downward trend. And getting you-know-who involved after he was pretty much out of game design (good riddance) just makes it worse.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-19, 10:08 AM
Oh, he's not out of the game by any stretch. He has at least two other RPGs in active development at the moment (Vigil, focusing on 80s-style street-level superheroes, based on Path of Journeys, and a Cosmic Zap ruleset, based off HeroQuest/HeroWars.) And before that there was Circle of Hands, Spione, Shahida, etc.

For Champions, he's been streamlining some of the math involved, but a lot of his talk about endurance mechanics (https://adeptpress.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/a-hero-gets-tired/) sound, dare I say... simulationist to me. It's still complicated enough that I don't think I could dive in immediately, but perhaps I'll try it out when/if I have a group down the road.

VincentTakeda
2018-06-19, 12:11 PM
I wont disagree that experience points could be described as a metacurrency, but in palladium its not a narrative one.. They're essentially not currencies because the players dont get to 'spend them' or 'trade them in' on anything. They result in more attainable skill targets and damage increases, but for the most part the player does not have agency in how the xp points change their character. Not nearly as 'activatable in the heat of the moment' as a fate point. By this broad measure, character stats/attribute points are metacurrencies. One of the most important bits of successful game design is making sure we're all using the same words to mean the same things. No doubt a person who creates game systems where even the character building process is built around a point system has defacto turned every design choice the player makes out of the gate into a 'coin' of character generation currency. I'm not sure thats a useful path to take, but I know a ton of players who think point based character generation is just fine. I simply offer my very detailed factors that contribute to what I love and hate about my chosen supers game because the question was posed. I have lots of detailed preferences for the way I like my supers games to be structured and someone expressed an interest in getting those details and some clarification on what I mean by them specifically. So there it is.

I would readily agree with you that fate points and point based character building and point based superpower building are all the same kind of metacurrency in that I dislike a game that uses any of them. On the other hand character progression as a result of players doing the things they're supposed to be doing in a superhero game isnt something I have a problem with. Giving characters a 'moment of awesome' coin, narrative coin, or get out of jail free card for good gaming behavior on the other hand is not really my cup of tea and a game based around the back and forth exchange of fate points is the kind of game I avoid with purpose and fervor. I avoid systems with point based character generation with the same degree of fervor.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-25, 12:55 PM
I would readily agree with you that fate points and point based character building and point based superpower building are all the same kind of metacurrency in that I dislike a game that uses any of them.
Well, hang on a second. If we're defining 'metacurrency' or, more broadly, 'metagame' in the sense of 'mechanics or decisions which impact the fictional world but don't correlate to mechanics or decisions within the fictional world', then I don't think that necessarily describes how point-based chargen or powers-building work. It depends on the interpretation of the mechanics and how the world is supposed to work.

A straightforward example is that, given a finite amount of time in the day, you and I could choose whether to invest that 'currency' in hitting the gym, practicing piano, solving math problems or chopping wood, et cetera. This is a case of 'players' actively deciding where to sink their characters' 'skill points', so to speak, and I don't see anything immersion-breaking about it. If XP or skill points are supposed to represent characters taking time off between adventures to hone their swordsmanship or visit the firing range, (rather than going 'ding' and levelling up in the middle of the action), then in principle there's no reason why the same level of player discretion can't apply. Similar logic applies to character generation, where the 'training period' in question is basically the PC's life up to that point.

Of course, you can argue that XP-rewards don't model this very organically, compared to games with actual practice-based skill-progression- and that's true, they don't. But you're not going to get any of that out of classes and levels either, where a character can, e.g, spend all day reading spells from a book to fry enemies and for some reason see their hit points and melee attack-bonus increase.

In general, I'm not sure why the idea of player agency over the character's development bothers you so much. Could you elaborate on that?

Max_Killjoy
2018-06-25, 01:07 PM
Well, hang on a second. If we're defining 'metacurrency' or, more broadly, 'metagame' in the sense of 'mechanics or decisions which impact the fictional world but don't correlate to mechanics or decisions within the fictional world', then I don't think that necessarily describes how point-based chargen or powers-building work. It depends on the interpretation of the mechanics and how the world is supposed to work.


Agreed.

"Meta" is generally about things that don't map the "secondary reality" / "fictional world" directly, but instead serve some purely game-level function

Point-buy and similar character gen/progression systems aren't inherently "metacurrency" based.

VincentTakeda
2018-06-25, 07:17 PM
I'm not sure why the idea of player agency over the character's development bothers you so much. Could you elaborate on that?

Its not that i'm bothered by players having agency over adding capabilities to their character as a function of experience, but I haven't found any system I like that handles that very well. Feat trees are a way of spending what could be considered 'feat points' in pathfinder and they funnel players into optimization traps. Capstone abilities and prestige classes also force players to dedicate the entire campaign to a single path in pursuit of an ability that by the time they can use it, the game is already over. Neither of these particularly address the issue of 'experience as a metacurrency' though, but the end result of experience as itemized advancement currency is identical. If a player has the ability to peacemeal out his earned experience as currency in order to develop specific traits, in my personal experience it has only ever led to players single mindedly optimizing, which leads to one trick pony, which leads to boredom. As one of my players put it 'the only way to stop me from doing that is to take away my ability to choose'... Human nature steering the ship. For me personally its better that he hit a level using experience points and create the meta dilemma that fighting monsters somehow unlocked better lockpicking skills so that in game he's better at doing a job he maybe didnt have to do this level than to have a party in an endgame scenario with characters that are full blown incompetent at things their 'role' should have become competent at but arent because 'points brah!'

Even in games like palladium where you're not held to the hammer and anvil or blaster/dps/tank/healer/controller tropes the trouble would still come up if it were an option. Speaking from experience as we've tried converting the palladium skill system into a 'you can decide which skills get boosts each time you level' and the second you put that agency in a players hands, human nature takes over and you've got a level 2 character who's a wizened grand master of drone piloting and demolition who will level a building in 30 seconds with laughable ease from the safety of a non descript panel van but cut himself shaving and bleed to death because he prioritized the learning of large scale autonomous munitions development over 'how to avoid murdering yourself with a straightrazor doing other relatively mundane tasks that yes, you should have gotten better at even if we didnt show you building up that personal grooming skill over the course of the last gaming session' and that skill didn't seem to have the same appeal that the nuke from orbit skill does, so you chose not to put any points in it.

Human nature is such that while it could be done well, it rarely ever IS done well.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-26, 06:01 AM
...in my personal experience it has only ever led to players single mindedly optimizing, which leads to one trick pony, which leads to boredom... ...with characters that are full blown incompetent at things their 'role' should have become competent at but aren't because 'points brah!'

...you've got a level 2 character who's a wizened grand master of drone piloting and demolition who will level a building in 30 seconds... ...over 'how to avoid murdering yourself with a straightrazor doing other relatively mundane tasks...
I can't say that this is a problem that has ever struck me as especially dire. It seems to me that if there's genuine variety in the kinds of problems that the PCs face, then narrow-minded optimisers should self-correct over time, and there are plenty of mechanical solutions for this even if the player never sunk points in less-common skills. (e.g, rolling against baseline attributes or using some other plausibly-related skill at a penalty or to provide a helping bonus.)

Burning Wheel's skill progression and lifepath system (https://www.burningwheel.com/forum/showthread.php?7104-Beginners-Luck-vs-open-skill) handles this fairly well, even if the math has some funky edge cases. Perhaps it could be improved on.

Max_Killjoy
2018-06-26, 05:10 PM
Points build requires the players (GM or otherwise) to actually take responsibility for their builds.

VincentTakeda
2018-06-26, 08:45 PM
I'm certainly a huge proponent of players learning to self regulate. I'm just not personally going to use point buy character build systems to do it. Nothin wrong with folks who like point buy character build or power build systems or point based itemized competency character advancement. Just not my personal preference. Lots of different kinds of gamer. I was under the impression the thread was about fans of the supers genre in all its varieties despite using a new edition of champions to start the conversation.

From a 'what should the designer do to make the latest edition of champions cater to my personal preferences' standpoint its clear that there's such a huge chunk of the champions system that doesnt fit my prefernce that I wouldnt recommend they bother, but if they are interested in what things I like and why, I'm more than happy to share my personal preferences.

The op asked 'and other superhero rpgs... good, bad, indifferent? thoughts?' Clearly i'm not indifferent and I have many thoughts. I presumed the 'other superhero rpgs' was a sincere requests for opinion from non champions fans about other ways the supers genre has been done. If this was meant to be a champions fans only thread i'll gladly see myself out.

I'm definitely not interested in defending my preferences against a legion of point buy fate point fans. I don't show up in the gaming forums for the 'spirited debate' side of gaming. I'll explain my preferences, but not if i'm doing it simply for champions fans to shoot them down.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-27, 05:49 AM
I'm not trying to specifically tweak your nose, Vincent. I'm just wondering if you had a run of bad luck with finding players or perhaps if the right system hasn't come your way yet. (I also think that the discussion around what constitutes 'metagame' within the hobby tends to be oddly selective, which certainly isn't peculiar to you.)


To be clear, my exposure to Champions is largely theoretical, which is I was hoping to bump into some folks who'd played it first-hand, but but I do have confidence in the production crew, and I think I can sympathise with some of RE's design goals (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/champions-now/posts/2221107). The kickstarter itself is now moving into it's final hours (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/champions-now/posts/2223913) now, and it's about 90% funded. Spare some change, guv'nor?

Max_Killjoy
2018-06-27, 08:48 AM
I've used the HERO system (4th and 5th editions) A LOT, and it's still my touchstone, along with WEG d6, (as opposed to the way others fall back on D&D or GURPs or whatever).


(6th edition was a huge letdown for me, and saying so (along with not adhering to Simon -- the admin's -- political positions... as in, literally, simply not agreeing with him on ACA/Obamacare was "conduct unbecoming a moderator") got me stripped of my moderator status at the old HeroGames forums.)


So far I see zero reason for anything that you-know-who says he's trying to do to the system, the WIP rules do not impress and read like "classic" RE work, and it really looks like he's bringing his narrative / genre-emulation thing to a game that didn't have it and didn't need it.

It bothers me that going forward this thing (along with 6th ed and the failed video game) might be what I have to specify that I'm not talking about when I mention HERO/Charmpions... that this is what people will know Champions as going forward.

Lacuna Caster
2018-06-28, 09:08 AM
...Aaaaand we are funded! *Ding ding ding*



It bothers me that going forward this thing (along with 6th ed and the failed video game) might be what I have to specify that I'm not talking about when I mention HERO/Champions... that this is what people will know Champions as going forward.
Well.... if it does bother you that much, you could always get on the inside track and kick up a fuss while playtesting. I'm fairly confident Ron won't kick you out over your opinion on healthcare, at least.

Razade
2018-06-28, 03:59 PM
Masks: A New Generation. Masks: A New Generation. Easily the best super hero story out there as long as you want to run teenage superhero fun. It's got the ethos and pathos of what makes heroes great with a system that's rules lite and rewards failure rather than punishes.

I've heard people complain that it has "too many splatbooks" which is weird to me since it only has two in print and a third on the way.

1of3
2018-06-29, 04:41 AM
I'll second Masks: A New Generation. PbtA game for young super heroes in the style of Young Justice, Teen Titans, New Champions, My Hero Academia. Can do Naruto too. Great fun. Great community. (On G+ and Discord mostly.)

Playbooks from the Core Book and Basic Moves (http://www.magpiegames.com/masks/masks-playbooks-moves/)


I've heard people complain that it has "too many splatbooks" which is weird to me since it only has two in print and a third on the way.

Yeah, and I'm very much looking forward to the upcoming Nomad and Scion. There are just so many characters, I'd dub Scion of a Villain with their main issue. In the meantime, I have made a playbook on my own: The Student. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18OKo7ZLMGn9Omk_-eogTgodzVHa65RiqWRdZlHLsVb8/edit?usp=sharing) Maybe you enjoy it. Suggestions welcome.

137beth
2018-07-25, 09:21 AM
I feel like I'm missing some context. What's "controversial" about Rod Edwards? I've literally never heard of this person before this thread, and Google doesn't seem to give me any helpful results, so I really have no idea what other people think about them.


As for a new edition of Champions? I'm kind of indifferent to the whole thing. I actually prefer to use either Word Mill's Mythic Roleplaying or Fate Core for superheroes, although neither is specifically designed for such games.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-25, 09:51 AM
I feel like I'm missing some context. What's "controversial" about Rod Edwards? I've literally never heard of this person before this thread, and Google doesn't seem to give me any helpful results, so I really have no idea what other people think about them.


As for a new edition of Champions? I'm kind of indifferent to the whole thing. I actually prefer to use either Word Mill's Mythic Roleplaying or Fate Core for superheroes, although neither is specifically designed for such games.

Look up "The Forge" and "GNS".

Not going to say more, I've ranted too much on this subject.

Stan
2018-07-25, 10:08 AM
I feel like I'm missing some context. What's "controversial" about Rod Edwards? I've literally never heard of this person before this thread, and Google doesn't seem to give me any helpful results, so I really have no idea what other people think about them.


He's notorious for saying that traditional rpgs cause brain damage (http://rpgmuseum.wikia.com/wiki/Brain_damage). Yet much of his design is bog standard, mundane. He made up a bunch terms that aren't really very helpful for analyzing game design and, as far as I know, never properly defined them.

I always found Champions and HERO tedious but he wouldn't have been on my list of people to revise it.