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The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-08, 11:06 AM
Knight of the Golden Orchard

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/92/54/23035492.jpg

Many a druid or fey creature has come to blows with the logger or farmer who wishes to clear the land. In such cases rivalries to outright war can wage between that of civilization and the wilderness. In such situations the Knights of the Golden Orchard are sent for, though most tend to have an uncanny knack for when such troubles are brewing. They settle disputes and forge treaties between the parties. Wood cutters and farmers are kept from clearing out too broad areas or chopping down dryad's trees, while overzealous naturalists or wild beasts are driven away from their harassment and provocation of harmless farmsteads and peaceable villages.

Knights of the Golden Orchard are named after the locale from which the organization was founded, a great, wild orchard planted hundreds of years before and left to grow wild. Here man and creatures of the wild lived together, man caring and harvesting their areas, while the beasts and sylvan creatures eating only what they needed within theirs. To protect one from the other, the Knights of the Golden Orchard were forged, living a nomadic life, traveling where they would and accepted by both as intermediaries.

The order spread across the land, always heading for where town and city encroached upon the woods and streams. Where they went new orchards were planted as neutral ground, and they give their services in exchange for food and lodging, favors and news. Those that take them for granted and repay them with nothing find their lands are no longer patrolled by the order and left to fend for themselves.

Though a Knight of the Golden Orchard is capable of wearing metallic armor, most tend to wear armor fashioned of natural materials such as leather, bone, or if possible, ironwood and leafweave.

Knights of the Golden Orchard are as one would suspect mostly made of Knights, though many after they have sworn their oath follow more the ways of the Ranger, the combination the easiest way to enter into the Order. More rarely they instead follow the path of the Druid.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements
To qualify to become a Knight of the Golden Orchard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-evil
Skills: Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks, Ride 8 ranks, Survival 6 ranks
Feat: Track
Language: Sylvan
Special: Must have been the vassal of and trained by a Knight of the Golden Orchard, Knight's Code class feature, Wild Empathy class feature


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Bareback, Inured of Faerie, Knight's Challenge, Wild Empathy
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Agile Armor, Forest Shield
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Challenge the Beast, Out in the Open
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Woodland Gallop
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bough Battle
6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Awake the Wood
7th +7 +5 +2 +5 Canopy Trail, Low-Light Vision
8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Leader of the Pack
9th +9 +6 +3 +6 Find the Path
10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Honored By the Land


Class Skills
The Knight of the Golden Orchard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography/nature/nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: (4 + Int modifier)

-=-=-=-=-

Knight of the Golden Orchard Code
(in addition to the traditional knight's code)

* A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not harm the land. He may clear an area for farm and home, drink of the streams, and make use of its wood but only takes as much as he needs, and only if it does not cause harm to the land as a whole.

* A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not manacle the beast. His pets and steeds must be allowed to roam as they will. He must never use barding or saddle upon another creature unless it gives express permission.

-=-=-=-=-

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the knight of the golden orchard prestige class.

Knight's Challenge: A knight of the golden orchard's levels stack with a knight's for the purpose of determining the number of times he may issue a challenge.

Out In the Open (Ex): Starting at 3rd level you can shout out a challenge to shame unseen creatures out into the open. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meed this requirement are immune to Out in the Open (this requirement is potentially negated by the challenge the beast ability below). The creatures must be able to clearly hear your challenge.
As a swift action, you can spend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all creatures within 100 feet to make Will saves (DC 10 + half your Knight level (PrC and base class) + your Cha modifier. Creatures that fail this save are forced to come out of hiding, dismiss any kind of invisibility, camouflage, blur or dislocation ability, or in some way make their appearance obviously known to you. If the creature is unable to dismiss this they make noise or affects the enviroment in some way so that you can pinpoint its true location.
For the duration of your presence they do not attempt to reconceal themselves, nor attempt to sneak up upon you.

Fool's Chase (Ex): Starting at 5th level you can shout out a challenge to a single opponent to give chase. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meed this requirement are immune to Fool's Chase (this requirement is potentially negated by the challenge the beast ability below). The creatures must be able to clearly hear your challenge.
As a swift action, you can spend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause this opponent to make a Will save (DC 10 + half your Knight level (PrC and base class) + your Cha modifier. Creatures that fail this save become dermined to catch you at any cost.
While in this chase the creature is so focused on you that they pay little heed to their surroundings. They may not use spot or listen checks unless it relates to pursuing the knight. This state lasts for as long as they can hear or see the knight and for 1d4 minutes afterwards.
If the pursuer does not know his way about the area, and cannot follow tracks or similar to find his way back, then he becomes hopelessly lost as soon as he is out of familiar territory.

Awake the Wood (Su): At 6th level a Knight of the Golden Orchard can expend one use of their knight's challenge ability as a swift action to call upon the forest itself to repay its debt for their protection and care.

You may choose from the following for your call to bring forth.

Elemental: You may awaken a bit of the forest itself, bringing forth a Medium elemental of the Air, Earth or Water type. These elementals lose the Extraplanar subtype and speak any one language that you know along with the elemental language according to their type. This elemental is friendly towards you. You have no special empathy or connection with the elemental, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. Only one elemental may be summoned at the same time.

Tree: You may awaken a tree warrior as the Liveoak spell, caster level equal to your PrC level.

Canopy Trail (Su): At seventh level a Knight of the Golden Orchard can expend one use of their knight's challenge ability as a swift action to call the forest together. While in Medium to Dense forest his command causes branches to knit together, forming a path of branches to support he and his mount if he has one. This path can be reached from the ground by a ramp of boughs that disappears the following round after the Knight has ascended. The path lasts for one minute, plus a number of rounds equal to the Knight's charisma modifier, before safely depositing the knight upon the ground. The knight can continue to expend uses of his knight's challenge ability to continue the trail from minute to minute until they run out of uses.
While on this trail the Knight gains full concealment from all angles except from those on the trail with him.
Others may use this trail, but unless they succeed on a DC 15 climb check, fall to the ground and take subsequent damage as the branches untwine.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A knight of the golden orchard adds their class level to their druid or ranger level when making a wild empathy check.

Bareback (Ex): A knight of the golden orchard quickly bonds with any beast he mounts. He may ride any non-evil animal, magical beast or vermin without saddle or barding and takes no penalty from doing such.

Innured of Faerie (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey.

Agile Armor (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard does not take Armor Class Penalties to Balance or Climb checks when using these skills within forest growth, such as trees and vines.

Forest Shield (Ex): A Knight of the Golden Orchard knows best to use the cover of the woods to their advantage. If the knight stands or is mounted in the same square as a tree he or his steed gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saves, instead of the normal +2 to AC and +1 to reflex. These bonuses don't stack with cover bonuses from other sources.

Challenge the Beast (Ex): If you can make the proper knowledge check to identify a creature, you can call out to it in its primitive language or use body language to convey your challenge. You may thus issue a knight's challenge to any creature that has an intelligence score, even if it has no true language. The beast gains a +4 bonus to their saves against the challenge.

Woodland Gallop (Ex): When you ride upon your mount you both gain the benefits of the Woodland Stride ability.

Bough Battle: A knight of the golden orchard has learned numerous unique martial maneuvers by this time with the aid of his surroundings.

Whip Lash (Ex): As a standard action a knight of the golden orchard may grab a branch in passing and pull it along, releasing it into their persuer. This acts as a slash attack with a reach of 1d20+5 feet that deals 1d6 damage plus your strength bonus. Those successfully hit must succeed on a Ride check (DC 10 + Knight's Str mod) or be knocked off.

Swing Around (Ex): As a full round action a knight of the golden orchard in persuit by another mounted being may grab an overhanging branch, bar, or equivalent, if one is present, and swing off his mount and spin about to land on his opponent's mount if it is large enough to hold him. This acts as a melee slam attack with a reach of 10 feet that deals 1d4 damage plus your strength bonus. Those successfully hit must succeed on a Ride check (DC 15 + Knight's Str mod) or be knocked off.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): At 7th level a Knight of the Golden Orchard has adjusted to the shadows and twilight within even the densest forests and gains low-light vision.

Leader of the Pack (Ex): At eighth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard seems to radiate a primal magnificence that animals automatically sense and are cowed by. Unless supernaturally coerced, an animal will not attack a knight of the golden orchard. Those that come within 10 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 knight's PrC level + Cha mod) or be affected as by the Charm Animal spell.

As well, he gains a +4 bonus on Charisma-based checks in regards to Fey and Magical Beasts.

Find the Path (Ex): At ninth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard never gets lost, instinctively knowing the most direct path through natural, above-ground terrain as if having used the Find the Path spell.

Honored By the Land (Ex): At tenth level a Knight of the Golden Orchard is honored by the land itself and becomes part of the natural order. He gains the Elemental type and all it's traits, except his soul and body retain its dual nature, for as long as he remains a knight.
As well, the Knight may use Speak With Animals, Speak With Plants, and Stone Tell at will, though the latter only works with natural, unworked stone.
Ex-knights lose the elemental type and its traits, as well as the ability to speak with the land.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-09-08, 02:09 PM
*JAWDROP* *GAPE* *DROOL*

Seriously, we need those smilies on these forums as long as you're going to insist on homebrewing, VT.

This is amazing. I imagine that if you had pitched me the idea for this class, I would've just told you to play a ranger; but the execution of the special abilities, along with the new challenges, are amazing. I'm off to buy a hat so I can remove it in your honor.

Kai-Palin
2007-09-08, 02:50 PM
*JAWDROP* *GAPE* *DROOL*

Seriously, we need those smilies on these forums as long as you're going to insist on homebrewing, VT.

This is amazing. I imagine that if you had pitched me the idea for this class, I would've just told you to play a ranger; but the execution of the special abilities, along with the new challenges, are amazing. I'm off to buy a hat so I can remove it in your honor.

Ditto. This is extremely well done. One thing I might ask for is a little clarification on the Bough Battle maneuvers. They must be used against a mounted person following the knight, correct? Does this person have to be under the effect of the Fool's Chase effect, or merely riding after the knight?

psychoticbarber
2007-09-08, 02:54 PM
Wait, so, why isn't the Vorpal Tribble making fourth edition? :smalltongue:

Excellent class, I may have to use this someday.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-08, 03:48 PM
Ditto. This is extremely well done. One thing I might ask for is a little clarification on the Bough Battle maneuvers. They must be used against a mounted person following the knight, correct? Does this person have to be under the effect of the Fool's Chase effect, or merely riding after the knight?
Well, whip lash can be used on anyone, just if they are on a horse it knocks them off.

Swing Around only works if you both are on a horse, as it states.

And no, they don't have to be under the effects of Fool's Chase, though it does help :smallamused:


Wait, so, why isn't the Vorpal Tribble making fourth edition?
Because Wizards refuses to acknowledge my existence :smallannoyed:


(Also ticked that its come out to begin with)

MythMage
2007-09-08, 03:54 PM
I like it. One question, though: why does it turn into an elemental? Conceptually, it seems far more like a fey, what with all the animal-friendliness and the many druid-style SLAs and the trickery and the focus on hunting. None of those things are conceptually related to elementals, but they're all related to fey.

psychoticbarber
2007-09-08, 03:57 PM
Because Wizards refuses to acknowledge my existence :smallannoyed:


I'm sorry if I put my foot in it there. Certainly intended that to be a compliment :smallsmile:.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-08, 04:06 PM
I like it. One question, though: why does it turn into an elemental? Conceptually, it seems far more like a fey, what with all the animal-friendliness and the many druid-style SLAs and the trickery and the focus on hunting. None of those things are conceptually related to elementals, but they're all related to fey.
Well, for one becoming a fey grants pretty much zilch. But really, they are becoming a part of the land, not just a spirit. Elementals are also much more battle-inclined.

And really, none of what they do is really 'trickery' per se, at least no more than the other knight challenges. Its basically just forcing them out into the open and making them fight fairly, one on one.


I'm sorry if I put my foot in it there. Certainly intended that to be a compliment
Oh, no problem, I took it as such, just grumping at Wizards who as far as I can tell only say they want new ideas but in reality have no interest.

MythMage
2007-09-08, 04:37 PM
Well, for one becoming a fey grants pretty much zilch.
It grants damage reduction /cold iron (possibly also magic or epic), which can be as big as you feel necessary.


But really, they are becoming a part of the land, not just a spirit.
Fey are a part of the land, moreso than elementals are. Consider spirits of the land. Elementals mostly don't deal with the Material Plane, whereas fey deal with it almost exclusively.


Elementals are also much more battle-inclined.
Elementals are battle-inclined the way that a thunderstorm is, uncaring about what effect it has on those who happen to get in its way. Fey are battle-inclined the way humans/animals are, sometimes killing and sometimes protecting, which is much more similar to the class's concept. Elementals are not knights; fey are.


And really, none of what they do is really 'trickery' per se, at least no more than the other knight challenges. Its basically just forcing them out into the open and making them fight fairly, one on one.
It's still manipulating the foe's behavior. Knight challenges are about manipulating foes and making them follow your rules rather than their's. That just screams fey. Elementals don't work with animals, they don't defend the trees, they don't wear armor. Fey do.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-08, 04:46 PM
It grants damage reduction /cold iron (possibly also magic or epic), which can be as big as you feel necessary.
Actually it doesn't. That is not a fey trait. I 'can' give them damage reduction to cold iron, but it has nothing to do with them becoming fey.

Also, nearly every single last PrC dealing with the woods seems to turn you into a fey.



Fey are a part of the land, moreso than elementals are. Consider spirits of the land. Elementals mostly don't deal with the Material Plane, whereas fey deal with it almost exclusively.
Elementals ARE the land. Those you summon aren't but a great many elementals are part of the material plane.



Elementals are battle-inclined the way that a thunderstorm is, uncaring about what effect it has on those who happen to get in its way. Fey are battle-inclined the way humans/animals are, sometimes killing and sometimes protecting, which is much more similar to the class's concept. Elementals are not knights; fey are.
Elementals are supposed to represent unstoppable, unflappable, determined forces. That sounds quite like a knight to me.

Fey are not knights as most fey are chaotic with no sense of honor. Knights are always lawful and ruled by honor.

I just feel elemental goes more with the theme then fey and isn't nearly so trite.

Kai-Palin
2007-09-08, 06:45 PM
Bough Battle: A knight of the golden orchard has learned numerous unique martial maneuvers by this time with the aid of his surroundings.

Whip Lash (Ex): As a standard action a knight of the golden orchard may grab a branch in passing and pull it along, releasing it into their persuer. This acts as a slash attack with a reach of 1d20+5 feet that deals 1d6 damage plus your strength bonus. Those successfully hit must succeed on a Ride check (DC 10 + Knight's Str mod) or be knocked off.



Sorry, further questions about Whip Lash. So how does the variable reach work? If you roll a d20 and get a seven, a total reach of twelve feet, is this any different from having a reach of ten to fourteen feet? I guess making it variable accounts for the fact that not all branches are the same size, but maybe instead it could just be a d4, with a 1 being 5 feet, 2 being 10 feet, and so on.

MythMage
2007-09-09, 12:28 AM
I will preface this by emphasizing that it's your creation and so it's not my business what you end up doing with it. However, as the whole point of a community like this is constructive criticism, I feel obliged to restate, in a clearer manner, that your conclusion of 'elemental' does not follow from your premise (the class's flavor).


Actually it doesn't. That is not a fey trait. I 'can' give them damage reduction to cold iron, but it has nothing to do with them becoming fey.
It's an unwritten rule, at least. Everything that turns one into a fey simultaneously grants DR /cold iron, and all but one of the 40+ published fey has DR /cold iron (and it only lacks that so that it can be LA +0).


Also, nearly every single last PrC dealing with the woods seems to turn you into a fey
Actually, there's only one of them that does that: the swanmay. The vast majority of woods-themed PrCs do no such thing.


Elementals ARE the land. Those you summon aren't but a great many elementals are part of the material plane.
I'm afraid that's simply not true in the Great Wheel cosmology. Elementals all have the extraplanar subtype because they are not actually a part of the Material Plane; rather, they exemplify the building blocks of physical reality just as outsiders exemplify the spiritual components of reality.


Elementals are supposed to represent unstoppable, unflappable, determined forces. That sounds quite like a knight to me.
They also represent mindless and careless forces, which are not knight-like. And regardless of what the general knight archetype is, these 'knights' are more concerned with other living beings than they are with knightly things. Only in the vaguest sense of tactics does elemental fit better. Every ability of the class and every piece of its flavor indicates fey, and when one gets down to it, its tactics are actually fey as well because it manipulates the opponent's behavior. Elementals don't work like that.

Breaking it down somewhat more specifically:
This class deals heavily with plants and animals, which doesn't mesh with the elemental angle; elementals almost never interact with those things except to destroy them. Elementals don't defend things; they simply exist, or else they destroy. Elementals don't use armor, while this class has an ability devoted to skilled use of armor.


Fey are not knights as most fey are chaotic with no sense of honor.
That's not exactly relevant (and not entirely true), as this class doesn't care about traditional honor. Its alignment restriction is against evil, not chaos. Its code of conduct is something the significant majority of fey would automatically uphold.


I just feel elemental goes more with the theme then fey and isn't nearly so trite.
What sort of elemental do they turn into, anyway? Somehow a mobile rock or human torch doesn't seem to suit the concept. It seems very random for them to be making friends with the animals and guarding the trees and have it cause them to permanently and suddenly liquefy into a water elemental (or other kind of elemental).

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-09, 11:16 AM
It's an unwritten rule, at least. Everything that turns one into a fey simultaneously grants DR /cold iron, and all but one of the 40+ published fey has DR /cold iron (and it only lacks that so that it can be LA +0).
Actually, from just the first book I picked up you have the following with no damage reduction to cold iron...

Domovoi
Rusalka
Uldra
Yuki-on-na
and anything with the Spirit Animal template.




I'm afraid that's simply not true in the Great Wheel cosmology. Elementals all have the extraplanar subtype because they are not actually a part of the Material Plane; rather, they exemplify the building blocks of physical reality just as outsiders exemplify the spiritual components of reality.
Elementals exemplify a basic part of something. This can be physical or even spiritual.

None of the following have the extraplanar subtype...

Breathdrinker (MM II)
Caller from the Deeps (Stormwrack)
Crysmal (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Fire Bat (MM II)
Galeb Duhr (MM II)
Immoth (MM II)
Paraelemental (Manual of the Planes)
- Ice
- Magma
- Ooze
- Smoke
Ruin Elemental (MM V)
Stone Spike (MM II)
Swarm, Cinder (MM III)
Taint Elemental (Heroes of Horror)
Tempest (MM II)


They also represent mindless and careless forces, which are not knight-like.
Some do, others do not.

A number of elementals are guardians of the land, almost feyish, but not quite. The element is a part of them one might say.

Take weirds for instance, they are guardians and spirits of their element and are very wise, and super-intelligent creatures. They can see into the future and have many magical powers. There is nothing mindless or careless about them.

Don't like weirds? Fine, we'll just usesome guys from the official monster manual. What is mindlessly and brutally forceful about a magmin or mephit? They may be mischievous and will harm things in the process, but they aren't some unstoppable force.


And regardless of what the general knight archetype is, these 'knights' are more concerned with other living beings than they are with knightly things. Only in the vaguest sense of tactics does elemental fit better. Every ability of the class and every piece of its flavor indicates fey, and when one gets down to it, its tactics are actually fey as well because it manipulates the opponent's behavior. Elementals don't work like that.
Only in your opinion, not by the books.


That's not exactly relevant (and not entirely true), as this class doesn't care about traditional honor.
They very much do actually. Exactly as a normal knight. Look at the prerequisites for instance:
"Knight's Code class feature"


Its alignment restriction is against evil, not chaos. Its code of conduct is something the significant majority of fey would automatically uphold.
The restriction is against evil only because evil creatures don't care to aid others unless it gets them something.

The extra code of conduct is in addition to the traditional knight's code (as it plainly states).


What sort of elemental do they turn into, anyway? Somehow a mobile rock or human torch doesn't seem to suit the concept. It seems very random for them to be making friends with the animals and guarding the trees and have it cause them to permanently and suddenly liquefy into a water elemental (or other kind of elemental).
No offense, but from what I've read so far I think you have a somewhat narrow view of what an elemental is.

Basically the knight becomes a basic component of the land. Part of the 'natural order' as it were. To me this sounds very elemental and knightish at the same time.


And btw, just because I disagree don't think I'm not appreciative of your critiques.

MythMage
2007-09-09, 02:01 PM
Domovoi
Rusalka
Uldra
Yuki-on-na
and anything with the Spirit Animal template.
Those are from Frostburn, right? I don't have that book. Oops. Regardless, my point was that it's perfectly normal for fey to get DR /cold iron. Pretty much, everything that turns a mortal PC into a fey grants it (spirit shaman, swanmay, frostfire witch, mirage mullah template). Plenty to justify giving it to the knight when he turns into one. And DR is more relevant to knightly combat than the elemental subtype's benefits anyway.


Elementals exemplify a basic part of something. This can be physical or even spiritual.
When do they exemplify spiritual things? Exemplifying spiritual things is pretty much the whole point of outsiders, and what differentiates them from elementals, so I'm going to have to see an example before I believe that.


None of the following have the extraplanar subtype...
The majority of those lack it only because you haven't accounted for errata; they were printed before the extraplanar subtype existed. Do any of those that actually lack it act as a harmonious protector of nature?


A number of elementals are guardians of the land, almost feyish, but not quite. The element is a part of them one might say.
Care to give a few examples? None of the elementals you listed actually does that as far as I know (can't check the books right now).


Take weirds for instance, they are guardians and spirits of their element and are very wise, and super-intelligent creatures. They can see into the future and have many magical powers. There is nothing mindless or careless about them.
But they also don't deal with living nature, animals or plants. When you actually find them on the Material Plane, they're in some obscure lifeless place. They are far more akin to wizardly sages than they are to druids or rangers.


They may be mischievous and will harm things in the process, but they aren't some unstoppable force.
You've just argued against your own point. If they aren't unstoppable, then they can't be a part of the elemental archetype you were just advocating. You said elemental fits better because it's an unstoppable force; the magmin and the mephit are not and only undermine your position. The fey are unstoppable sometimes too. Just check out the Wild Hunt (from Monster Manual 5 and a ton of pre-3e sources).


They very much do actually. Exactly as a normal knight. Look at the prerequisites for instance:
"Knight's Code class feature"
Regardless, there are just as many fey as elementals who care about law. Neither group has a huge number of lawful members. And when it does come down to lawful activity, the fey actually do it better. Just look at fairy tales - half of the time, fey are obsessed with rules and manners and taboos. In D&D, this shows up most often among Seelie Court fey (see the Fey Feature on the D&D website), though there's also the bog imps off the top of my head.


No offense, but from what I've read so far I think you have a somewhat narrow view of what an elemental is.
On the contrary, I think you're giving it more leeway than it merits.


Basically the knight becomes a basic component of the land. Part of the 'natural order' as it were. To me this sounds very elemental and knightish at the same time.
It is more feyish than it is elemental, as most elementals have nothing to do with the Material Plane. Those few you find there do not participate in nature the way you depict your knight as doing. The text of the ability itself suggests fey - 'honored by the land and part of the natural order', which is a great description of how the majority of fey interact with the land and nature. It doesn't say 'turns to soil' or anything like that.

By the way, you didn't answer my question. What sort of elemental does he turn into?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-09-09, 02:42 PM
When do they exemplify spiritual things?
Taint Elemental. See above post.


The majority of those lack it only because you haven't accounted for errata; they were printed before the extraplanar subtype existed. Do any of those that actually lack it act as a harmonious protector of nature?
*sighs*

All of these are 3.5 and have been around since the conception of the extraplanar subtype

Caller from the Deeps (Stormwrack)
Crysmal (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Ruin Elemental (MM V)
Swarm, Cinder (MM III)
Taint Elemental (Heroes of Horror)

I will look about later, but for now I'll just use the Snow and Ice Weird from Frostburn (tough it) as an example.

Also, that Crysmal, while not a harmonius protector, is not a 'force of nature', it's just a little creature that scurries about trying to find crystals to help with its reproduction.

Really mephits aren't a force of nature type either. They are intelligent creatures with wishes and wants and purposes of their own.


Care to give a few examples? None of the elementals you listed actually does that as far as I know (can't check the books right now).
Galeb Duhr is an ideal example, and though he is 3.0, it says that its not known where they come from, but they are almost always found on the material plane, and are very protective of the area they inhabit, even individual rocks and boulders.


But they also don't deal with living nature, animals or plants. When you actually find them on the Material Plane, they're in some obscure lifeless place.
So what?

I was not making this guy to perfectly copy anything else, so if they are 'different' in some way from one, and the same in another, good for them.


You've just argued against your own point. If they aren't unstoppable, then they can't be a part of the elemental archetype you were just advocating.
I never agreed with you that elementals have to be an unstoppable force, just that by your arguments the knights could fit your view of them.


Regardless, there are just as many fey as elementals who care about law.
These absolutes you keep throwing out are getting a bit tiring as we both know you haven't counted them all.

Ignoring that, again, so what if those types don't normally care about law? These guys are keeping their humanity mentally and even physically for the most part.


On the contrary, I think you're giving it more leeway than it merits.
Except that your views are contradicted by published, official creatures and mine are not.


What sort of elemental does he turn into?
A forest elemental I guess. A mixture of the pine scented air, the gurgling creeks and the mossy soil.

There are omni-elementals, so no need to go on to something else here.

Basically they are an element of nature as a whole, not just a part.

OverdrivePrime
2007-09-10, 02:16 PM
This is a beautiful PrC, VT, and I hope to sway a DM into letting me take it at some point. Do you see the KotGO's Inured of Faerie ability stacking with the Druid's Resist Nature's Lure ability?


Additionally, I see the Spirit Shaman as blending very well with the Knight class as an entry to the Knight of the Golden Orchard PrC, thanks to both classes' focus on Charisma.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-10-01, 12:33 PM
Do you see the KotGO's Inured of Faerie ability stacking with the Druid's Resist Nature's Lure ability?
Both are unnamed bonuses, so yup, they automatically stack.


Additionally, I see the Spirit Shaman as blending very well with the Knight class as an entry to the Knight of the Golden Orchard PrC, thanks to both classes' focus on Charisma.
Thats a good idea. Don't have the book though, do they get animal empathy?