Not enough excitemet, too much damage

[linklele]

Hello!
I just started a new campain for new players, but i find my combat encouter lacking.
Being at lv 1-2 there are very limited options about what to do, but i noticed encounters are quite dangerous already (at least for my PCs: 2 hits from a Goblin (5 damage average) are enough to KO them. (average PC life 10 HP).
I'd like to spice things up but without adding actual danger. (fake danger is ok of course).
Any advice?

[Lunali]

Low stakes combat is an option, meaning enemies that don't want to kill the players. (letting the players know this is optional)

In other situations, if someone does go down make sure the rest know they can stabilize them with a medicine check.

[kraitmarais]

Adding in some environmental hazards or neutral threats may spice things up.

Maybe the goblins have made some traps, and most are very obvious to the player characters but still add some strategical thinking about positioning, and will make the players feel like they’ve defeated a significant threat even if you include fewer goblins.

Add some cover, trees for sniping, or hazardous terrain that your player characters will be more clever about using than the goblins.

Maybe the goblins try to trigger a swarm of wasps or a stink bombs to hinder the player characters, but the mood of the swarm or the direction of the wind means that some rounds it actually causes problems for the goblins.

A half-ogre could be at the scene who wants to loot the bodies of both the player characters and the goblins, and will fight for the side he thinks is winning. His allegiance may switch every round, depending on how well each side can convince him to fight for them. Hilarity ensues, and the player characters likely have better Cha than the goblins, and will better influence the half-ogre, making the combat easier even against a strong goblin force.

[PhantomSoul]

It'll depend partly on the party composition, but you can use things like status conditions. In the early levels I used Poisoned (with low damage) to freak my players out, for example... even if there wasn't really much threat. Flashy abilities can also look impressive without actually being incredibly threatening. Depending on the party, maybe they have the opportunity to befriend animals and/or locals to help with combat (ideally the animals, since the animals will feel more in their control).

[Unoriginal]

How do you describe combat, usually? How do your players see it?

[ad_hoc]

Hello!
I just started a new campain for new players, but i find my combat encouter lacking.
Being at lv 1-2 there are very limited options about what to do, but i noticed encounters are quite dangerous already (at least for my PCs: 2 hits from a Goblin (5 damage average) are enough to KO them. (average PC life 10 HP).
I'd like to spice things up but without adding actual danger. (fake danger is ok of course).
Any advice?

While combat is quite deadly at that level...level 1 is designed to last 1/2 session and level 2 just 1 session.

So by the third session the characters should be 3rd level. Then 4 or 5 sessions later, 5th. After that progression drastically slows but all of the characters should have their things (some take until level 6 or 7).

It is good to focus more on the exploration and social interaction pillars of the game at these levels. Tier 1 is for characters to feel outmatched by the world. Once they hit tier 2 they can start feeling powerful. Need to have that reference of weakness for the feeling of power to have an impact.

[MaxWilson]

Hello!
I just started a new campain for new players, but i find my combat encouter lacking.
Being at lv 1-2 there are very limited options about what to do, but i noticed encounters are quite dangerous already (at least for my PCs: 2 hits from a Goblin (5 damage average) are enough to KO them. (average PC life 10 HP).
I'd like to spice things up but without adding actual danger. (fake danger is ok of course).
Any advice?

Lean less on combat and die-rolling to provide excitement, and think about dramatic stakes. Depending on what you enjoy most, add (1) more NPCs to interact with, (2) more secret doors, (3) more treasure, or (4) more mysteries.

For example, you could take your basic low-level encounter and, without changing anything about the toughness of the monsters, incorporate one or more of the following facts about orcs: http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2013/09/on-ecology-of-orc.html Some of the facts can turn out to be false (e.g. rumors in town, writings in a book that the players find), and some of them can turn out to be true.

E.g. "Orcs are what happens when teen mothers drink during pregnancy in a fantasy world" + "Any orphan who drinks from a sewer will change into an orc" + "Orcs have disgusting long spined tongues. After battle they use their tongue to infect the corpses, several hours later, orcs eat their way out of the recent corpse" = nightmare fuel.

[LudicSavant]

I recommend reading this in its entirety for any new DM seeking to reduce how much their combats suck: http://theangrygm.com/four-things-youve-never-heard-of-that-make-encounters-not-suck/

[Phoenix042]

Hello!
I just started a new campain for new players, but i find my combat encouter lacking.
Being at lv 1-2 there are very limited options about what to do, but i noticed encounters are quite dangerous already (at least for my PCs: 2 hits from a Goblin (5 damage average) are enough to KO them. (average PC life 10 HP).
I'd like to spice things up but without adding actual danger. (fake danger is ok of course).
Any advice?

Add lots of alternative consequences for failure other than "you win or you DIE" every fight.

For example, sometimes, all the enemies want is your gold. If they reduce you to 0 hp, they'll knock you unconscious instead of killing you outright, and then just take your loose change and hightail it.

You need to chase someone to catch them.

The monster wants you to leave, not to die. If he wins the fight, you all wake up a few hours later well away from the dungeon, all progress lost.

The monster wants a new best friend. If he reduces any PC to 0hp, he'll try to carry that PC off to his secret lair and make him play make-believe and have tea-parties (or whatever activity is appropriate to the tone of your adventure). The other PC's then have to save him, possibly by diplomacy or trade (offering the monster a replacement, perhaps?)

King of the hill; there's a mutual objective that both the PC's and the monsters are after, and if the PC's lose, they lose the "hill."

Capture the MacGuffin; pretty self-explanatory



There's a lot of options like this.

[linklele]

Thanks you all for you reply, it was very interesting.
Right now i'm running "the lost mine of Phandelver" adventure book, so right now the battlefields are not of my creation.
I try to give flavour to every action describing it, but at the 8th time my Bard casts the same cantrip to attack I start to run low on ideas...

[strangebloke]

Thanks you all for you reply, it was very interesting.
Right now i'm running "the lost mine of Phandelver" adventure book, so right now the battlefields are not of my creation.
I try to give flavour to every action describing it, but at the 8th time my Bard casts the same cantrip to attack I start to run low on ideas...
It's really important to remember that lost mines is a sandbox adventure.

Some encounters after supposed to be hard or unbeatable, even, and consequently your party should be very careful about how they engage. Remind them how surprise works, encourage them to scout ahead, etc.

Remember to treat your goblins dynamically. If the fight is going south have them retreat and join up for a later fight. Some of this is baked in to the campaign, but you can always add more.

Another 'fun' thing is to give the goblins nets and poison.

And yes, you can alter the encounters, particularly if you have a large or small group.

[sophontteks]

Thanks you all for you reply, it was very interesting.
Right now i'm running "the lost mine of Phandelver" adventure book, so right now the battlefields are not of my creation.
I try to give flavour to every action describing it, but at the 8th time my Bard casts the same cantrip to attack I start to run low on ideas...

What cantrip?
Because vicious mockery never gets old. I killed a vampire spawn by telling it that its father never loved him.

[Lunali]

What cantrip?
Because vicious mockery never gets old. I killed a vampire spawn by telling it that its father never loved him.

Just remember, the worse your insults, the funnier it is when it kills someone.

[sophontteks]

Just remember, the worse your insults, the funnier it is when it kills someone.

Bonus round. I told the vampire spawns father that we killed him and he balled his brains out.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hello!
I just started a new campain for new players, but i find my combat encouter lacking.
Being at lv 1-2 there are very limited options about what to do, but i noticed encounters are quite dangerous already (at least for my PCs: 2 hits from a Goblin (5 damage average) are enough to KO them. (average PC life 10 HP).
I'd like to spice things up but without adding actual danger. (fake danger is ok of course).
Any advice?

Okay, so we have two problem here.

1: Too dangerous. This is partially a side effect of the problem that D&D pushes the assumption that players begin at the minimum level of power (level 1) instead of competent people who have some experience under their belt (level 3ish). Therefore they begin hilariously squishy and take a couple of levels until they actually have a decent amount of hp.

Note that even 'deadly' systems tend to give the same relatively amount of hp as 2nd or 3rd level in D&D. GURPS gives characters 10HP as standard, starts forcing checks to stay alive at either 0HP or -1*maxHP, and doesn't kill you outright until -5*maxHP (and your body is utterly destroyed at -10*maxHP). Call of Cthulhu doesn't really use negative hp as much but still gives investigators a bit over 10 as the base. Both of these systems deal damage roughly equivalent to low level D&D on a standard hit from a human, for the record. In Unknown Armies your average person can survive about three hits from a melee weapon, unless their opponent was very skilled or got a critical, and can potentially even take a gunshot and come out alright (and this is a system that begins it's combat section with 'six ways to avoid a fight'). Low level D&D is more dangerous than gritty systems, and in old editions this was fine because avoiding fights was encouraged if you could get the XP elsewhere (remember,, 1GP=1XP).

2: Not exciting. I suppose you mean the lack of options. Characters tend to have either a small number of options at low level, potentially having a couple of 1/SR abilities and then simply the choice of who they attack. The only real way to solve this is a) homebrew more combat options/use the ones in the DMG or b) play at higher levels.

[MaxWilson]

2: Not exciting. I suppose you mean the lack of options. Characters tend to have either a small number of options at low level, potentially having a couple of 1/SR abilities and then simply the choice of who they attack. The only real way to solve this is a) homebrew more combat options/use the ones in the DMG or b) play at higher levels.

Or open your PHB to the equipment section and read about caltrops, bear traps, ball bearings, and flaming oil; then review the combat chapter and look at the options for Dodge, Grapple, Shove, Help, and the section on partial and total cover; consider how to shape the battlefield to your advantage with the aforementioned equipment options; and look for ways to gain surprise (a free round!).

First level characters have tons of options.

[Anonymouswizard]

Or open your PHB to the equipment section and read about caltrops, bear traps, ball bearings, and flaming oil; then review the combat chapter and look at the options for Dodge, Grapple, Shove, Help, and the section on partial and total cover; consider how to shape the battlefield to your advantage with the aforementioned equipment options; and look for ways to gain surprise (a free round!).

First level characters have tons of options.

Good point on the equipment, I'm a bit unsold on the additional actions. Dodge is a tad situational, in some situations Shove is so good it ends up being used every turn (returning to out 'not enough variety' problem), I dislike Grapple this edition, an you won't believe the effort I've spent trying to get players to use the Help action rather than continually batting with their attacks.

With regards to shaping the battlefield, it I something I forgot but is also something that players can find it hard to get their head around. Especially as the best nonmagical ways require preparation, and most players underestimate the value of choke points or other terrain that doesn't give cover.


Sorry, I'm more used to systems with even more options baked in. That even in a one on one weapon duel you'll be making feints to throw your opponent off guard, making the occasional forceful blow, potentially quickdrawing a dagger for a sneaky thrust, and so on. Although saying that, I'm also used to systems where combat is longer than low level D&D but shorter than high level, with a bit more built in complexity to the attack action or more combat techniques available for use/for purchase.

So in TDE a high level warrior might have access to Feint, Forceful Blow, Hammer Blow, Charge, and Grapple (as a conservative estimate and only using Core Book options). In GURPS you have six basic ways to make an attack open to everybody.

Yes, I am being a bit of an elitist here, so I'll stop. Your examples are actually rather good, the only problem is getting other players to make use of them (I especially like throwing down caltrops and other hazards, going to see if I can find a way to make that work with Mage Hand, which I was already planning to abuse the heck out of to justify the Help action at range).

[Leith]

All good stuff, but nobody has mentioned the obvious solution for overly dangerous combats at low levels: just reduce the damage. I don't roll for damage personally, I just take the average. Which means I can just use a lower number.

[Anonymouswizard]

All good stuff, but nobody has mentioned the obvious solution for overly dangerous combats at low levels: just reduce the damage. I don't roll for damage personally, I just take the average. Which means I can just use a lower number.

There's also 'increase their hp', which is a similar but not equivalent solution (notably it leads to a greater buffer but your ability to replenish between long rests isn't affected). Either +10 or +CON score should work okay.

[MaxWilson]

So in TDE a high level warrior might have access to Feint, Forceful Blow, Hammer Blow, Charge, and Grapple (as a conservative estimate and only using Core Book options). In GURPS you have six basic ways to make an attack open to everybody.

Yes, I am being a bit of an elitist here, so I'll stop. Your examples are actually rather good, the only problem is getting other players to make use of them (I especially like throwing down caltrops and other hazards, going to see if I can find a way to make that work with Mage Hand, which I was already planning to abuse the heck out of to justify the Help action at range).

I love GURPS: Martial Arts. A GURPS character does have more viable individual combat options than a 5e character does--5e combat options are typically only viable in a team context. E.g. Dodge is counterproductive in a 1:1 fight, but in a team fight, Dodging in a chokepoint (possibly a chokepoint formed by caltrops and/or flaming oil, if they are credible deterrents against the monsters in question) can buy more time for the ranged team members to kill the enemy in front of you.

(Also, GURPS: Martial Arts flavor is mostly only appropriate for humanoid-on-humanoid combat. Trying to use judo on a Purple Worm... Well, good luck. So I haven't tried importing GURPS: MA into D&D, I just keep them separate games. GURPS: Dungeon Fantasy is fun on its own terms.)

Note that Unseen Servants are just as good at laying caltrops as Mage Hand is. And it's a ritual, with no concentration requirement, so theoretically it stacks (if you have enough time beforehand for repeated castings). I haven't seen this done in practice but just want to alert you to the possibility.

[linklele]

All good stuff, but nobody has mentioned the obvious solution for overly dangerous combats at low levels: just reduce the damage. I don't roll for damage personally, I just take the average. Which means I can just use a lower number.
Actually the average damage is already half their HP...

I'll try to tip them over to caltrops and such then, though being the very first campain for some of them i think it will be difficult for them to handle.


What cantrip?
Because vicious mockery never gets old. I killed a vampire spawn by telling it that its father never loved him.
Sacred Flame. After the umpteenth unoriginal flame burst i started describing it as a little flaming angel wich changes attack every time (once with a wip, a punch, and on a fail it even sat with closed arms).
With the bard flame bolt however i have way less idea on how to describe without repeating myself too much.

[Wryte]

How does a level 1-2 bard know Sacred Flame? It's not on their spell list, and he's not high enough level for Magical Secrets, so the only way he could have it at that level is as a variant human with the Magic Initiate feat, and also a decent Wisdom score if he hopes to hit with it.

The way I approached this problem with my group, which was similarly a group entirely of players who had never played a tabletop game before, was to send them into a town that had been overrun by goblins, but who were now spread out into easily digestible smaller groups. There were about 20 goblins in the town, but the players should easily have been able to engage no more than 4 at a time by engaging smartly.

...oh, right, first time players. They wound up engaging three groups at once while they themselves were spread out all over the place. Fortunately, I had an NPC in one of the town buildings who was there to hold off the goblins from getting inside and wiping out the survivors, so I wound up sending her out to help the players, including deciding on the fly that she was carrying a couple potions of healing.

From there on, allied NPCs have been involved in most of the combat scenarios I've thrown at them, with their effectiveness inversely relative to how well the players are doing. If the players are doing well, the NPCs sit back. If the players start to struggle, the NPCs get more involved, but hopefully never to the point of outshining the PCs. As the players' levels go up, they are also beginning to outpace the NPCs, most of whom are based roughly on a 3rd level PC. Ideally, they will outgrow the NPCs entirely, and mine seem to be on track to do so. The last few combat scenarios we've been in, they haven't needed the support at all.

[JoeJ]

Good point on the equipment, I'm a bit unsold on the additional actions. Dodge is a tad situational, in some situations Shove is so good it ends up being used every turn (returning to out 'not enough variety' problem), I dislike Grapple this edition, an you won't believe the effort I've spent trying to get players to use the Help action rather than continually batting with their attacks.

With regards to shaping the battlefield, it I something I forgot but is also something that players can find it hard to get their head around. Especially as the best nonmagical ways require preparation, and most players underestimate the value of choke points or other terrain that doesn't give cover.


Sorry, I'm more used to systems with even more options baked in. That even in a one on one weapon duel you'll be making feints to throw your opponent off guard, making the occasional forceful blow, potentially quickdrawing a dagger for a sneaky thrust, and so on. Although saying that, I'm also used to systems where combat is longer than low level D&D but shorter than high level, with a bit more built in complexity to the attack action or more combat techniques available for use/for purchase.

So in TDE a high level warrior might have access to Feint, Forceful Blow, Hammer Blow, Charge, and Grapple (as a conservative estimate and only using Core Book options). In GURPS you have six basic ways to make an attack open to everybody.

Yes, I am being a bit of an elitist here, so I'll stop. Your examples are actually rather good, the only problem is getting other players to make use of them (I especially like throwing down caltrops and other hazards, going to see if I can find a way to make that work with Mage Hand, which I was already planning to abuse the heck out of to justify the Help action at range).

Kobold Press has a supplement with a bunch of special weapon attacks (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/204266/Beyond-Damage-Dice-New-Weapon-Options-for-5th-Edition?manufacturers_id=2189&filters=45326_0_0_0_0) you might find useful. Generally they can be done by anybody with proficiency in the weapon, so it's really easy to bring them into an ongoing campaign.

[linklele]

How does a level 1-2 bard know Sacred Flame? It's not on their spell list, and he's not high enough level for Magical Secrets, so the only way he could have it at that level is as a variant human with the Magic Initiate feat, and also a decent Wisdom score if he hopes to hit with it.

Nope, the cleric had sacred flame, the bard had Flame bolt. Pheraphs it wasn't clear.

Today i had a new session and strangely the barbarian, (the class with the least option of all) has been MVP with some smart ideas like preemptively narrowing a path with boulders, and in an istance litterally did a table flip squishing 4 goblins.

For my part i learned how to exploit critical fails to insert interesting elements (an arrow shot into the woods? Wait until 3 rounds later a bees swarm come chasing you, your eldritch blast failed spectaculary at killing that goblin at 1HP? Ooops it became a ghost that haunts you and makes funny comments every time you kill one of his friends...)