Railroading or not?

[Voltage89]

Hey guys. In my world I have a whole plot set up for the players to get captured by drow and taken down to their underdark city. I then have several things for them to do in the underdark thst each will advance the story in some shape or form. Do you think it is railroading if I have several drow capture the players in a fight they would have no chance at winning? I'm not telling them they have to be captured, the drow would actually most likely work with then if possible.

[Trask]

Hey guys. In my world I have a whole plot set up for the players to get captured by drow and taken down to their underdark city. I then have several things for them to do in the underdark thst each will advance the story in some shape or form. Do you think it is railroading if I have several drow capture the players in a fight they would have no chance at winning? I'm not telling them they have to be captured, the drow would actually most likely work with then if possible.

Yes. That is railroading if you give them an unwinnable fight with no way to avoid it at all.

If you want to do this just have them start as prisoners if its a new campaign. If its an ongoing campaign I wouldnt bank on a plot using capture. I would just set some kidnapping drow loose in the world that the party might encounter randomly and the drow would do their best to kidnap them. But even then I wonder why some drow would pick on armed adventurerers rather than defenseless peasants.

Alternatively, you could pitch the idea to them and if they like it, after their current adventure theres a "fade to black" timeskip and now theyre ensnared by a drow slaving party a couple of months later. Thats rather untraditional for D&D but it is very pulpy and has a great history in Conan stories and the like.

"This time, our heroes are caught and bound by drow slavers heading for the deepest pits of the underdark! What will happen next!!??"

Like that

[Voltage89]

Well see, its not a new campaign so that part wouldnt work. The way I personally see it is that sometimes things will happen that can not be prevented. I dont know, I just feel like sometimes a small amount of railroading can be useful in order to make the game more fun. There also is a reason they are capturing intelligent, higher level characters but that would take some time to explain. I'm

[JoeJ]

Well see, its not a new campaign so that part wouldnt work. The way I personally see it is that sometimes things will happen that can not be prevented. I dont know, I just feel like sometimes a small amount of railroading can be useful in order to make the game more fun. There also is a reason they are capturing intelligent, higher level characters but that would take some time to explain. I'm

There's nothing wrong with railroading if the players enjoy that kind of game. I would worry, however, that spending game time on an unwinnable fight could be frustrating. Trask's idea of starting the adventure with the PCs already prisoners is a good one. Make the actual capture something that happens during downtime, so when the next session starts the PCs are already where you need them to be.

More broadly, I think it would be a very good thing if more adventures began in media res.

[Trask]

Well see, its not a new campaign so that part wouldnt work. The way I personally see it is that sometimes things will happen that can not be prevented. I dont know, I just feel like sometimes a small amount of railroading can be useful in order to make the game more fun. There also is a reason they are capturing intelligent, higher level characters but that would take some time to explain. I'm

Well its certainly plausible that Drow would want to capture more intelligent, powerful beings. And those might very well be the PCs.

Heres what I'd do if you really want to go with your encounter idea. I wouldnt spring it on them without a chance to avoid it. Id make sure it was known that strange elves with skin like the night are emerging from the deep earth and abducting people. Maybe the PCs even go to investigate. Let them do their thing, then just let the situation escalate to the point where the PCs are being outright targeted. Drows are not dumb, and they are not chumps either. A little Drow poison can go a long way, and once the PCs are asleep they can be abducted.

See the difference is that you have to allow for the PCs to have a chance to outwit this trap. If you dont then youre basically enforcing your plot over their characters, which really isnt fun if everyone isnt on board.

Just a suggestion.

[Davrix]

The problem is its an ongoing campaign. Springing a trap that has a no win moment in it will usually piss players off.

As others have said if you want to do this talk to the players. You don't have to tell them what you have in mind only that your going to start them off in a tough situation where they don't have all their gear and its going to be a bad situation they are going to have to work to get out of. If they are ok with this then wrap up what you are doing and fade to black for a few months or weeks and narrate it well.

If they don't go for it, don't do it... Yet

Go run a small adventure, let them forget you asked about it for a few weeks / months. During said adventure have them encounter tracks or signs of someone tracking them. Even if they roll stupid good all you have to do is give the proper clues. Saying yes someone was here watching you, yes you can follow the tracks for a bit but after X feet the trail goes cold and there is no sign its like they just vanish into thin air.

Now they will either make 2 choices. One they will go on with your adventure or two they will start hunting these guys down.

Either choice leads to the same encounter just at different points.

Choice one they track the people watching them.

- The party finds them and depending on the rolls either they ambush them or they ambush the party. Let it play out fairly that is the key thing you need to remember in all this. Always give the illusion the party is in full control. (It takes practice and it doesn't always work but you get less blowback)

Either way you can make it a unfair fight but give hints to that. Drop clues if they roll well that maybe they have been found out, maybe the people they are tracking are leading them into a ambush or that they are choosing their own ground to fight. The key to setting up a good catch 22 is letting the party to choose themselves to walk right into it. And if they still someone to manage to beat your fight, it gives you an excuse to up the ante later. Let things settle for a bit and a second party comes along. This one with higher level bad guys, fathers / powerful Drow nobles of maybe a few of the ones they killed and it shows consequences depending on the parties actions.

Choice 2 - The party goes along with the adventure hook and whatever boss is at the end.

Dont flaunt it to much but maybe drop a hint there still being followed at some point, build the paranoia. mislead them maybe a little that maybe these guys are working for the bad guy they are dealing with in this minor adventure. Lead them into that fight and when you do make sure you drop hints that the guys that have been tracking them are around at that time. Let hem choose then to track them down or go face the evil guy at the end of the little story you have cooked up. Let them fight that, waste resources and basically design the fight not to kill them but wear them down.

THEN ambush them with the dark elves. They wont feel like its a railroad. (Some might but eh those are the people you can never make happy) The party will be riddled down and yes don't make it overwhelming. Make it a fair fight as if the party would of faced them fresh. They should be in real trouble though after a boss fight BUT they might still win. If they do let them and use the first examples to stick it to them later. But you can always play these guys smart. Give them something that can capture or stabilize a character if they fall unconscious. Maybe a special net that gives the effect of Spare the dieing and banishes for one minute. (don't tell them what it does) Let them just think the fallen party member is gone. Have the DE bully them into giving up to save their companion or knock the rest out.

This is just my example. The key to all of this is, play smart, play fair and let the party members choose how this will unfold. A good DM doesn't sulk over a lost plot line. You simply shelve it for later and move on.

[Voltage89]

Oh, well now I actually have a good plan for it! There is a blueprint for the ancient illithid ship that the drow have found. That is the reason there is a large underdark war. The players live working with the thieves guild si I'm going to have a quest for them to go down to the underdark to steal it. Most likely, while they are down there, they will notice there is more at play than they think!

[Nidgit]

Another good way you should really consider is to incentivize going to the Underdark for one reason or another. If you have the kidnapping drow as an established threat and some goal that exists in the Underdark, being kidnapped becomes a failsafe for the players to get to the Underdark. Then they can choose to confront the drow or not, but either way there will be some choice involved and they'll want to go towards the rest of this adventure.

[Ganymede]

It really isn't railroading. It is more like a thin contrivance for a new adventuring area.

It is more like "Y'all finished the current adventure and, to move on to an exciting new adventure, you are all kidnapped by drow in your down time."

Railroading deals with a negation of player agency. A contrivance to get from adventure A to adventure B doesn't seem to qualify.

[Keltest]

It really isn't railroading. It is more like a thin contrivance for a new adventuring area.

It is more like "Y'all finished the current adventure and, to move on to an exciting new adventure, you are all kidnapped by drow in your down time."

Railroading deals with a negation of player agency. A contrivance to get from adventure A to adventure B doesn't seem to qualify.

If the players weren't given any choice as to what adventure B was or whether they wanted to get there, its still railroading. As others have said, that isn't the end of the world, but it still has a high chance of ticking people off.

[Sigreid]

I'd have the drow try. If the party is not captured they may be interested in a retaliatory strike. Same adventure minus a prison break. Personally, I'm not that into breaking out of prison.

[Pelle]

Just explain out of character what you want to run/prepare next and get buy in to the capture, and it should be fine. You don't need to force it in-game.

[Rynjin]

Just explain out of character what you want to run/prepare next and get buy in to the capture, and it should be fine. You don't need to force it in-game.

Basically this. I feel like a lot of new DMs get way too into the "I have to keep everything TOP SECRET" idea. Ultimately if you're ever in a situation where you're seriously considered about whether your players will react well to it...just ask 'em. Most of the time with the right pitch the players will agree, and all is well.

If they're really not into the idea...well, it sure is better to know that now, BEFORE you spend a few weeks planning your cool Underdark adventure that (railroad or no railroad) you players just ain't feeling down with.

[Magzimum]

Just explain out of character what you want to run/prepare next and get buy in to the capture, and it should be fine. You don't need to force it in-game.

Personally, I like it if the transitions are logical from an in-game point of view. In other words: My character logically knows what happened and why. If no good transition is available, then an out-of-character solution works too.

However, railroading in-game is a tricky business, and it can go wrong.

Don't allow any roleplay if you are going to railroad. Just describe what happens, and do not allow the players to roll any dice. Allowing them to roll the dice means you give the impression that the players have a chance. If they find out later that they never had a chance, it may anger them. The worse decision is to actually give them a chance to succeed but make it hard. In that case, be prepared for both outcomes. They may just roll a few critical hits.

Even if you describe and do not allow the players any rolls, you still have to think of a good description. Do not just state that 15 drow show up and capture them. The players may choose to fight. If you then disallow this, then it really feels like railroading.

A good plot hook or a lure works much better, because the players feel like they made the decision and will be motivated to travel to where you want them.

[Pelle]

Personally, I like it if the transitions are logical from an in-game point of view. In other words: My character logically knows what happened and why. If no good transition is available, then an out-of-character solution works too.


It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. First negotiate out-of-character, then narrate something logical in-game. Just because something is logical in-game doesn't mean it is enjoyable for the players, thus out of game agreement is preferable before hitting them with a (logical) unwinnable encounter.

[Ganymede]

If the players weren't given any choice as to what adventure B was or whether they wanted to get there, its still railroading. As others have said, that isn't the end of the world, but it still has a high chance of ticking people off.

We might be operating under different definitions of railroading, as I definitely don't include the DM picking a module/adventure in there.

[Keltest]

We might be operating under different definitions of railroading, as I definitely don't include the DM picking a module/adventure in there.

People tend to assume that railroading is this super bad thing that must be avoided at All Costs. Its not. Railroading is a tool to rapidly get people from point A to point B, and like all tools there are perfectly legitimate uses for it. The problem comes when people try to use it inappropriately. Ultimately, its up to the DM to understand their players and know when people will run with the fantasy because they want to see you come up with something cool, versus when they wont because they want to find something cool themselves.

[Sigreid]

People tend to assume that railroading is this super bad thing that must be avoided at All Costs. Its not. Railroading is a tool to rapidly get people from point A to point B, and like all tools there are perfectly legitimate uses for it. The problem comes when people try to use it inappropriately. Ultimately, its up to the DM to understand their players and know when people will run with the fantasy because they want to see you come up with something cool, versus when they wont because they want to find something cool themselves.

This is very dependent on the group and the DM. Some groups are happy with a lot of railroading because it relieves them of the responsibility to make their own fun. Some groups hate it. Some DMs have a light touch. Some make you wonder why they just don't write a novel. And there's a lot of room between the extremes.

You really need to know where your group falls on the spectrum. If you're a new DM, I recommend telling the group straight up that "We're all still in the stage of learning what kind of game works for us. If I tie you down too much, lets talk about it after."