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Conners
2007-09-08, 11:19 AM
This is for discussing the orc double axe and its strengths and weaknesses, as well as other double weapons.
Example: What strategies do you use, what race is best, how is it more useful than X with Z?

Spiryt
2007-09-08, 11:33 AM
Double weapons are generally an utter crap, and nothing can help them, it can be seen at first glance.

I hovewer heard that there are some strategiest that can made use of them.

I can think of spells like Bane Weapon (Ranger's from spell Compendium). You can have only one Bane Weapon at the time, so if you are TWF Ranger, you can make use of it.

Attilargh
2007-09-08, 11:34 AM
Taking the proficiency for it is like taking Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, except you're stuck with that one weapon. OTWF isn't an extremely effective feat, either.

Talya
2007-09-08, 11:38 AM
OTWF isn't an extremely effective feat, either.


Tell that to the dual-weilding power-attacker.

Spiryt
2007-09-08, 11:54 AM
Taking the proficiency for it is like taking Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, except you're stuck with that one weapon. OTWF isn't an extremely effective feat, either.

Not at all. OTWF allows you to use any one handed weapon combined with any other. And, what's more important, you can power attack with both weapons, making TWF more serious thing and allowing nice attacks moves - like Leap Attack with two Weapon for x4 Power attack Damage (if you have any method to pounce but there are quite many).

You can't Power attack with both sides of double weapon:


just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. (However it's still debatable, as it's not clearly stated in SRD)

Attilargh
2007-09-08, 11:56 AM
Tell that to the dual-weilding power-attacker.
Sure, just let me grab my two-hander. Leaping Shock Power Trooper Attack! :smalltongue:

A two-weapon fighting Rogues might find using a quarterstaff rather amusing, and not an utterly bad move. It's 20 gold pieces cheaper than a pair of short swords, making it possibly worth the lower threat range. At least at lower levels.

Ralfarius
2007-09-08, 12:02 PM
A two-weapon fighting Rogues might find using a quarterstaff rather amusing, and not an utterly bad move. It's 20 gold pieces cheaper than a pair of short swords, making it possibly worth the lower threat range. At least at lower levels.
Flavour-wise, I think a rogue who wanders around with a quarterstaff to be awesome. It's considerably less conspicuous than some actual pokey-weapons, especially if you fake a limp.

"You wouldn't deny some gimpy kid his walking stick, would you?"

Next thing you know, he's kidney-shotting everyone twice a round while the fighter keeps them flanked.

Crow
2007-09-08, 12:07 PM
We houserule a full 1-1/2 Strength Bonus for both ends of a double weapon. It really takes the edge off of eating that feat just to use the thing.

Tengu
2007-09-08, 12:14 PM
Tell that to the dual-weilding power-attacker.

Sure, let's compare - two longswords versus a greatsword. Level 6 fighter, 18 strength, no weapon focus or similar feats.

Two longswords:
+8 AB 1d8+4 damage
+3 AB 1d8+4 damage
+8 AB 1d8+2 damage
+3 AB 1d8+2 damage
(average, assuming all of them hit: 30)
Each point of Power Attack gives you +1 damage for -1 AB to each attack.

Greatsword:
+10 AB 2d6+6 damage
+5 AB 2d6+6 damage
(average, assuming all of them hit: 26)
Each point of Power Attack gives you +2 damage for -1 AB to each attack. Let's do enough PA to match the AB of the fighter above:
+8 AB 2d6+10 damage
+3 AB 2d6+10 damage
(average, assuming all of them hit: 34)

You have more damage with a twohander, without spending additional feats and without having to pump dexterity to go further in the two-weapon fighting feat tree. Unless you have a source of additional damage on each attack (sneak attack for example), two-handed weapons are superior.

Jasdoif
2007-09-08, 12:27 PM
You can't Power attack with both sides of double weapon:

(However it's still debatable, as it's not clearly stated in SRD)What? It's perfectly clear: When you TWF fight with a double weapon, you choose which end is the primary. That end is treated as a one-handed weapon, while the other is treated as a light weapon. Power Attack works as normal with a one-handed weapon, and as normal with a light weapon.


As to the subject at hand...double weapons can be nice. Not because you can attack with both ends at once, but because you don't have to waste time switching from one two-handed weapon to another; if you tend (or intend) to be fighting foes with various forms of damage reduction, it's handy to have separate DR-overcoming measures on each end, and be able to pick one each time you attack without any extra action on your part. I don't think it's worth a feat to get proficiency, though; Quick Draw tends to be a better choice.

Tengu
2007-09-08, 12:30 PM
You cannot power attack with a light weapon in 3.0 3.5.

Jasdoif
2007-09-08, 12:44 PM
You cannot power attack with a light weapon in 3.0.You certainly can Power Attack with a light weapon, you just get no damage bonus despite taking the attack penalty. Which is what would happen with the light end. "Cannot power attack with a light weapon" might carry a misconception that you don't take the attack penalty with the light weapon.

Or is this one of those things that changed between 3.0 and 3.5?

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-08, 01:00 PM
Or is this one of those things that changed between 3.0 and 3.5?No, you've got it right.

Kel_Arath
2007-09-09, 05:08 AM
Double weapons are better for fluff, also more damage. Instead of one handed and light, you get (effectively) two one handed weapons. So instead of 1d8/1d6 you get 1d8/1d8. Instead of over-sized TWF you can either use non-exotic (quarterstaff) or just take the exotic proficiency feat, cause it's awesome. Also Weapon focus, weapon spec, improved critical, etc all apply to both ends. Also you can power-attack with both ends because it says "you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon" it says nothing about "treat the off hand side as a light weapon. Additionally, it is harder to sunder and harder to disarm. And again, the most important part. You look REALLY cool.

Orzel
2007-09-09, 05:25 AM
Double weapons are for rangers with high STR and average DEX, Mega hyper power attack charge, then full attack next turn.

Awetugiw
2007-09-09, 05:25 AM
The orc double axe can be a pretty nice weapon for an Eye of Gruumsh, using only one side, as two-handed weapon. You already had to use the feats for it, so you might as well use it. And you can make your secondary head alchemical silver or cold iron or something.

Coincidentally, this is probably also one of the most realistic ways to use a double axe.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 05:28 AM
Well, Kel, a lot of people simply don't like the fluff, so between those people and the ones that don't like the fluff enough to burn a feat for mediocre performance, you're left with a very small group.

The problem is that going up a die size for weapons matters less and less and less as you progress up, even at 1st level the difference between 1d6 and 1d8 hardly overwhelming. Essentially, with an orc double axe (which orcs never seem to use) you're taking a feat to get the damage of two battle axes with the penalties of a battle axe and a hand axe. The thing is, you're only getting an average of one more point with your off hand.

Now, add in the additional problems that you can't swap out one side, double weapons of any sort are hard to get randomly and cost the same as two separate weapons when buying, it's hard to see why you'd blow a feat on one.


Edit:
Double weapons suck just as badly for power attack (when using both ends) as a one handed weapon and a light weapon, and more so than two one handed weapons with OTWF. As the second part is treated as a light weapon, you don't get a damage bonus with it while still taking the attack penalty.

The exception to this is the Revenant Blade PrC, which as it's capstone ability lets you treat both ends of a double scimitar as two handed weapons for both strength and power attack purposes.

Kantolin
2007-09-09, 05:30 AM
Theoretically, two-weapon dwarves or gnomes are better off with their racial double weapons (The Dwarven Urgrosh and the Gnome Hooked Hammer) than with any other set of two weapons, due to getting them for free.

The major weakness of them for other builds is that... well, they cost a precious feat for not a whole lot of gain.

So hey, be a Dwarf or a Gnome and double-weapon all you'd like.

As I note the title of the topic... I think, if you gave Half-orcs Familiarity with the orc double axe, it could possibly actually see some use. As is, it's mediocre.

As a note, though, double weapons aren't exactly the worst option in the universe. You can make an effective two-weapon fighter with a double weapon as opposed to, say, two shortswords or a long and a short sword, and you'll do fine. THey're just somewhat sub-par.

Matthew
2007-09-09, 06:07 AM
You cannot power attack with a light weapon in 3.0.

No, you cannot gain Power Attack Damage with a Light Weapon (excluding Natural and Unarmed Attacks) in 3.5. You can gain Power Attack Damage with anything in 3.0.

Spiryt
2007-09-09, 06:09 AM
Double weapons are for rangers with high STR and average DEX, Mega hyper power attack charge, then full attack next turn.

Can't see why not use Oversized TWF. Even if we consider that double weapons allow PA with both hands, it gives better versality, (ability to take whatever one hand weapon you find/ buy).

And you don't look like idiot with two axes on the long stick.
It's just too looney even for D&D non-realistic standarts.

Orzel
2007-09-09, 06:40 AM
Can't see why not use Oversized TWF. Even if we consider that double weapons allow PA with both hands, it gives better versality, (ability to take whatever one hand weapon you find/ buy).

And you don't look like idiot with two axes on the long stick.
It's just too looney even for D&D non-realistic standarts.

You'll look like an idiot either way but at least you don't burn a feat to lose a weak -2 penalty.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 06:50 AM
You'll look like an idiot either way but at least you don't burn a feat to lose a weak -2 penalty.

That's the argument for not using double weapons summed up. You may or may not have intended it that way.

Personally, I find the best use of two weapons is a two handed weapon (greatsword or the like) along with an unarmed strike, armor spikes, or a natural weapon. With all but the armor spikes, you get double return for power attack on your primary attack and at least equal on your secondary. And anyone with martial weapon proficiency can get armor spikes fairly easily.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-09-09, 07:31 AM
Hmmm, I've never thought about it, but I'd have to agree with Kel:

it says "you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon" it says nothing about "treat the off hand side as a light weapon.
Based on that I'd allow Power Attack with both ends.

This gets into thorny RAW issues beyond my abilities to calculate, but if the only time the weapon is treated as one-hand / light is for purposes of TWF, then you could actually argue that it is still a Two-hander for Power Attack purposes (on both ends). That would change the calculations quite a bit.

Were-Sandwich
2007-09-09, 07:44 AM
That's the argument for not using double weapons summed up. You may or may not have intended it that way.

Personally, I find the best use of two weapons is a two handed weapon (greatsword or the like) along with an unarmed strike, armor spikes, or a natural weapon. With all but the armor spikes, you get double return for power attack on your primary attack and at least equal on your secondary. And anyone with martial weapon proficiency can get armor spikes fairly easily.

I always wanted to play an Unarmed Swordsage who used an Elven Courtblade and Unarmed Strikes for TWFing.

Attilargh
2007-09-09, 07:45 AM
You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.
Emphasis mine. I'm fairly sure that's one myth busted.

Tengu
2007-09-09, 09:32 AM
No, you cannot gain Power Attack Damage with a Light Weapon (excluding Natural and Unarmed Attacks) in 3.5. You can gain Power Attack Damage with anything in 3.0.

Oops! I meant 3.5, not 3.0. Talk about posting while tired.

Chronos
2007-09-09, 03:12 PM
Double weapons are better for fluff, also more damage. Instead of one handed and light, you get (effectively) two one handed weapons. So instead of 1d8/1d6 you get 1d8/1d8.Sure, but if you really want that extra point of damage, there are still better options. Instead of spending your Exotic Weapon Proficiency on the double axe, spend it on a Dwarven Waraxe instead (or don't spend it, and get it for free as a dwarf). With your Waraxe and a Handaxe, you then get 1d10/1d6, which is essentially equivalent to 1d8/1d8. At least at low levels: Once you start getting to higher levels, you'll be making more attacks with your primary weapon than with your secondary, so that's the one it's better to have the damage increase on. 1d10/1d10/1d10/1d10/1d6/1d6 is better than 1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8.

Serpentine
2007-09-10, 02:15 AM
As I note the title of the topic... I think, if you gave Half-orcs Familiarity with the orc double axe, it could possibly actually see some use. As is, it's mediocre.
That's what I have in my game, so we're set there. I really can't see that it's any more worse compared to other weapons than others are... to... each other... Read that sentence a couple of times, it'll make sense eventuallyl.

Miraqariftsky
2007-09-10, 09:05 AM
As I note the title of the topic... I think, if you gave Half-orcs Familiarity with the orc double axe, it could possibly actually see some use.

Don't half-orcs already have the ability, "orc blood" that grants them proficiency/familiarity with specifically orcish items?

Kantolin
2007-09-10, 02:30 PM
That's what I have in my game, so we're set there. I really can't see that it's any more worse compared to other weapons than others are... to... each other... Read that sentence a couple of times, it'll make sense eventuallyl.

I think you meant 'That's what we do in that game, and it doesn't seem to make the weapons overpowered', right? ^_^

If so, I agree with you on that - it'd potentially make the weapon into the 'almost worth it' range if half-orcs had familiarity with it, but wouldn't be particularly overpowered. Especially on a half-orc.

(In honesty, I'm not sure why more people don't play dwarven units - an astonishing amount of people are willing to spend a feat to get the bastard sword, but nobody will just play a dwarf and use what is essentially theirs?)


Don't half-orcs already have the ability, "orc blood" that grants them proficiency/familiarity with specifically orcish items?

Sadly, no. Orc Blood is:


Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.

So you can beat up a half-orc with an orcbane weapon or with orc as your favored enemy, and a half-orc could use some mysterious axe that only orcs could use.

(The latter of which tends to never come up as (a) most orcs don't create magical equipment, and (b) almost all settings have orcs are somewhat monotheistic evil, thus any item they create would be something like the Orphan Slayer which your poor half-orc PC couldn't use due to not being evil. :P Orc blood is almost strictly a disadvantage. But hey.)

Also, as interesting food for thought, pure orcs aren't proficient in their double axes either.

Chronos
2007-09-10, 04:12 PM
(In honesty, I'm not sure why more people don't play dwarven units - an astonishing amount of people are willing to spend a feat to get the bastard sword, but nobody will just play a dwarf and use what is essentially theirs?)They don't? In most of the games I've been in, the party tank has been a dwarf, even before they gave them familiarity with waraxes and removed their armor speed penalty. 3.5 just turned them from good fighters into great fighters.

Kantolin
2007-09-10, 04:17 PM
They don't? In most of the games I've been in, the party tank has been a dwarf, even before they gave them familiarity with waraxes and removed their armor speed penalty.

Huh... I guess it's mostly my group, though. My group really loves humans and elves, I suppose. I just keep hearing about human fighters with bastard swords instead of... dwarven fighters with dwarven waraxes and a few other bonii.

UserClone
2007-09-10, 04:26 PM
Ack! Bonuses! the plural of bonus is BONUSES!! BONUSES!!! (Also, Soylent Green is people.) :smallwink:

ocato
2007-09-10, 04:48 PM
I prefer soilent cola usually, it varies from person to person.

Well, you have to remember that most parties and players have a guy in mind that isn't based on zomg uber set up. If the guy in your head is a human with a bastard sword, then thats what you're going to play.

Kantolin
2007-09-10, 04:52 PM
If the guy in your head is a human with a bastard sword, then thats what you're going to play.

Er... to reexplain my point, as it does occur to me that I was unclear, most of my group will go with a bastard sword for the purpose of swinging a 1d10 weapon in one hand.

If there is a mental-vision picture to that, sure, but the major focus does seem to be the 'It's a longsword, but better!' ^_^


Ack! Bonuses! the plural of bonus is BONUSES!! BONUSES!!!

Pah, I speak English. In english, if you say something long enough, it becomes fact. Heck, if you say Ninja and Dagger long enough, they begin to take english suffixes resulting in 'Ninjas' and 'Daggers'. ^_^

Bonii sounds cooler. Sometimes, anyway.

Indon
2007-09-10, 05:07 PM
Double weapons have one definite mechanical advantage over standard TWF: there's nothing to keep you from making attacks outside your full attack (such as AOO's) 2-handed.

Chronos
2007-09-10, 06:33 PM
Bonii sounds cooler. Sometimes, anyway.Eh, "boni" might (debatably) sound better. But "bonii" is the plural of "bonius", whatever that is. The rule for (almost) any Latin word ending in -us is to turn the -us into -i for the plural. Hence, "bonus" becomes "boni", "cactus" becomes "cacti", "fungus" becomes "fungi", "radius" becomes "radii", et cetera. The only two exceptions an anglophone is likely to encounter are "octopus" (Latin plural "octopodes", since it originally comes from Greek), and "virus" (which doesn't have a Latin plural, but if it did, it'd be "vira", since it's neuter).

Serpentine
2007-09-10, 11:49 PM
I think you meant 'That's what we do in that game, and it doesn't seem to make the weapons overpowered', right? ^_^
We-ell... kinda. I meant more that... the axe doesn't really seem any more under- or over-powered compared to other weapons than, say, a longsword or crossbow or gnome hooked hammer compared to other weapons.

new1965
2007-09-11, 08:05 AM
If you have ranger levels and take two weapon fighting path.. an Orc double axe has a couple of minor advantages

The extra attack

Weapon Focus adds its bonus to the primary AND off hand attacks

The heads are enchanted individually so its easier to make a weapon for all occasions at lower levels. Ive got a Cold Iron/ Silvered/ Electrical/Giant bane weapon with a Crystal of Energy Assault (acid) on one head

Keld Denar
2007-09-11, 08:54 AM
One of my friends came up with kind of a whitty idea to make double weapons pretty potent. Most (if not all) of the double weapons are exotic unless I'm mistaken. Being of a certain race gives you proficiency with your racial double weapon (Gnomish Hookhammer, Dwarven Urgosh, Orc Doubleaxe). You then just pick up the last couple feats to qualify for exotic weapon master.

The trick is, you get the trick "flurry of strikes" which gives you a flurry attack similar to monks flurry at low levels. Flurry requires that you use either a spiked chain, or a double exotic weapon, which all the above are. Flurry does NOT say that you have to 2weapon fight with the double weapon to use flurry, simply that you use a double weapon.

Now you 2hand powerattack with only one end, while flurrying, and you get the bonus of the extra attack while still making 2handed power attacks. In all respects, its the same as 2handanding a longsword or battleaxe. Base damage is a little lower than a greatsword by about 2 points, but you are going for the PA and str*1.5 mostly. You gain an extra attack for a measly -2 penalty, which you can also stack with slashing furry(PHB2) for another attack (total 2) at -4, which at level 15 (about the time you get it) is nothing. A 16th level fighter would be making 4 iteratives, 2 flurrys, and probably a hasted attack (from boots). That's 7 attacks, all of which have PA*2 and str*1.5 on them, 4 of which are at highest attack bonus.

Plus, in the case of hookhammers and urgoshes, you can switch ends to crack different DRs, because each end is different (hookhammer is P/B, urgosh is P/S). Treants got you down? Give em a chop. Lich breathin on you nasty? Hope your hammer side is magic, then go to town. As someone else posted, you can also enchant the sides different. Involved in the Blood War? Go silver on one side, cold iron on the other, sacred or holy on both, and you can crack every DR known to evil outsider-kind. Most fighters keep at least 2 weapons, so you aren't paying that much more than you would. The only drawback is getting sundered/acid skinned/rustmonstered sucks doubley bad.

Person_Man
2007-09-11, 09:11 AM
There are a few minor bonuses associated with any double weapon:

1) You can switch between using it as a two handed weapon or a primary and off hand weapon, though not in the same attack action. For example, I could charge and use it as a two handed weapon, and then switch to using it as a primary and off hand weapon when I make a full attack the next round. You could also use the double weapon as a two handed weapon for AoO.

2) There are a few spells and powers which enchant both ends of a double weapon with one use, such as Vampiric Blade (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersQtoW.html#vampiric-blade), or create a single weapon, such as a Spectral Weapon (Spell Compendium). Using a double weapon is thus more efficient when if you use such a power or spell on a regular basis.


However, the down side is pretty bad:

1) You cannot gain the Power Attack damage bonus with a light weapon (excluding natural and unarmed attacks). The off hand of a double weapon counts as a light weapon. Thus in order to have a respectable damage output, you need a primary source of damage which is not Power Attack (Sneak Attack, ability damage, spells, etc).

2) You sometimes have to spend a feat in order to use certain double weapons - a huge waste. It also tricks newer players into taking poor feats, such as Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc. You also have to spend feats on the TWF tree, which can often be a huge waste if not done correctly.

3) The number 1 advantage is pretty much negated by the number 1 weakness. If you're trying to maximize damage via Power Attack (benefit number 1) you would never follow up with an attack that uses a light weapon (down side number 1).


A Psychic Warrior or Gish might use a double weapon under certain circumstances, assuming they passed up other, better options because of fluff reasons. Other then that, I really can't think of a crunch reason why a player would use one.

RAGE KING!
2007-09-11, 06:12 PM
...The advantage double weapons have is that you can have two damage types with a single weapon (so you can take only one set of weapon focus etc. feats and still have two damage types) and no light weapon does 1d8 damage where some double weapons have 1d8/1d8. However, there is no weapon in the phb that those both apply to.