Warlock + Other Spellcasters (Spell Slots)

[mgshamster]

I'm running an online PBP Level 20 game for a single player who wants to play a Warlock 9/Druid 11.

This player absolutely believes that since Warlock and Druid are both casters, they use the Multiclass Soellcasters Table on page 165. So they think they have Level 9 spell slots for their druid, and also the two spell slots at level 5 for their warlock.

What official evidence can I prove to prove otherwise. I'd prefer not to simple say DM Says No. While I'm fine with that, I don't want to have to do it due to a rules misunderstanding. I don't want them to walk away thinking I'm being a mean DM simply by insisting that we follow the rules. (Although I will if it comes down to it).

Any official explanations by JC or Mearls, or Sage Advice, or something similar out there?

[CaptAl]

The warlock doesn't have the 'spell casting' feature, instead they have 'pact magic' therefore the multiclass 'spellcasting' table doesn't apply.

[PhantomSoul]

Your evidence is pages 164-165 of the PHB; it specifically says that isn't how it works.

Sp e l l c a s t in g
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your
combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and
partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once
you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one
class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the
Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the
rules as described in that class.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine
what spells you know and can prepare for each class
individually, as if you were a single-classed member of
that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example,
you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your
levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know
three w izard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten
wizard spells, two o f which (the two you gained when
you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level
spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six
wizard spells from your spellbook.
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one
o f your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability o f that
class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting
focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the
spells from the class associated with that focus.
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots
by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric,
druid, sorcerer, and w izard classes, half your levels
(rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and
a third o f your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down)
if you have the Eldritch Knight or the A rcane Trickster
feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by
consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table
might give you spell slots o f a level that is higher than
the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those
slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lowerlevel
spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an
enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you
can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have
any spells o f that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/
wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when
determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level
slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots.
However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you
know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell
slots o f those levels to cast the spells you do know—and
potentially enhance their effects.
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class
feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock
class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact
Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared
from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you
can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting
class feature to cast w arlock spells you know.

[mgshamster]

He used the Pact Magic paragraph on Page 164 (posted and bolded in the spoiler by Phantom Soul, thank you) to "prove" that they stack and his druid has access to 9th level spell slots.

"As for casting, as I'm a multiclass caster, they use the chart for multiclass casters on page 165 of the PHB (As a matter of fact, if you have two classes that cast spells, that Have to use that chart). Note that I just get the spell slots, not the ability to cast spells of that level.

Warlock spells specifically do stack with spellcasting, as mentioned on page 164. [Pact Magic quote snipped]"

So what I have is people using the same exact quote from the PHB to argue completely opposite things.

[CaptAl]

snipped

As a warlock you get pact magic which is on pg 107. That's is not the spellcasting feature. Note that warlock isn't listed in the classes that are used to determine your multicalssed spellcaster level. Yes, they can use pact magic slots to cast druid spells, or druid slots to cast pact magic spells, but the warlock levels do not add to his druid spellcasting as far as slots are concerned. Otherwise, warlock would be in that list to determine the multicalssed spellcasting level.

[JNAProductions]

Also, you're the DM? You're well within your rights to say "In addition to you being wrong as per RAW, I'm just plain not allowing you to be that much more powerful than everyone else," or something to that effect.

[sophontteks]

The PHB spells it out for you right here...

Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.

They didn't forget warlocks exist when they wrote this. They intentionally left them out. Warlock pact magic has its own section below this that explains how it combines with spellcasting features and it says nothing about what the player is trying to do.

[Matrix_Walker]

When asked, JC just refers people back to the player's handbook. The rule is clear. Warlocks do not have the Spellcasting Feature. It is unfortunate that WotC decided to call the feature "Spellcasting" when there are so many different formas of casting spells that are not included.

Just ask them to show you where it says they add their Warlock levels to anything.

[PhantomSoul]

He used the Pact Magic paragraph on Page 164 (posted and bolded in the spoiler by Phantom Soul, thank you) to "prove" that they stack and his druid has access to 9th level spell slots.

"As for casting, as I'm a multiclass caster, they use the chart for multiclass casters on page 165 of the PHB (As a matter of fact, if you have two classes that cast spells, that Have to use that chart). Note that I just get the spell slots, not the ability to cast spells of that level.

Warlock spells specifically do stack with spellcasting, as mentioned on page 164. [Pact Magic quote snipped]"

So what I have is people using the same exact quote from the PHB to argue completely opposite things.

They explicitly excluded Warlocks when giving the spellcaster level calculation, which is because Warlocks actually have a different feature that therefore doesn't count towards the levels. The first bolded part gives the calculation, and the second bolded part highlights that Pact Magic is dealt with separately (but that spell slots can be used for spells from whichever source).

(Edit: Typo; "the" --> "they".)

[Matrix_Walker]

This kind of situation, I must admit, has me usually believing the player is willfully misreading to pull one over on the GM.

[Citan]

Hi!

For the "legal explanation", I'll pull what others said: strict reading.
PHB on that multiclass magic has several sections.
1. How to know what spells you can learn/prepare: report back to each class taken in its individuality. >>> Druid 11 mean he knows only up to 6th level Druid spells. Warlock 9 means he could learn X spells, among which 2*5th level ones (one learnt as usual, one grabbed by swapping an older spell known of a lower level).
2. How to know how many long-rest slots you have: add the levels of classes that are specifically listed. Warlock is NOT listed, and the golden principle of PHB is that rules are explicit (even if sometimes not quite clear, but here there is no ambiguity ^^). So he has two kind of resources:
- "spellcasting feature": add 11 Druid + 0 Bard + 0 Cleric + 0 Paladin + 0 Ranger + 0 Sorcerer + 0 Wizard... = 11.
- "pact magic feature": 100% contained "inside" Warlock class, out of scope of the multiclassing rules: so Warlock 9 = 2*5th level slots.
3. How to know whether spell known would be tied to a type of resource, in the case you make a mix between "casters based on spellcasting feature" and "lone caster with pact magic feature". They just say that, basically, you can use whatever spell you have available with whatever slot you have available. Nothing more.

Feel free to make him read the post above.

I would make a big, big priority to assess as fast as possible if that sortie about multiclass is a genuine mistake (which can certainly happen, in the first months of 5e this question was popping up like every 200 threads or so)...
Or if you are facing a trouble player that wants to munchkin a maximum while bearing an innocent facade.
Former case? Just use the chance of your next discussion with him, in which you'll make him understand his comprehension mistake (hopefully), to ask whether there are other important bits in his character concept that rely on mechanics. That way you could debunk potential misunderstandings (and possibly make your life easier in the run ^^).
Latter case? Politely show him the door if you're not 100% certain you can handle that kind of behaviour. Would ruin the fun for everyone else sooner or later.