character build idea... most attacks per turn (16 to 18 attacks)

[samcifer]

After using Animate Objects during the last session as my evocation wizard and getting to roll 10d20 for a single round of attacks, I started thinking and figured that whoever rolls the most dice in combat stands the best chance of winning, so I thought it over and came up with this idea for a character focused on getting the most attacks per round. The idea is to combine Eldritch Blast, Animate Objects, tiny objects like ball bearings and the fighter's Action surge ability for the most attacks in a single round. the spell Hex and the Agonizing Blast eldritch evocation naturally help a lot with adding more damage. Quickened metamatic can help on future turns and naturally you'd need to be able to cast at least one 5th level spell, so that would be a level 13+ character built the following way (in any order):

Stats: max out Charisma as its the main attack stat used (the objects use their own stats for attacking based on the spell effect)

Fighter (any subclass): 2 (for Action Surge)
Warlock (any subclass): 2 (for Agonizing Blast and Hex for added damage)
Sorcerer (any subclass): 9+ (for access to Animate Objects spell as well as metamagic - Empowered and Quickened)

Round 1: Activate Animate Objects and choose 10 Tiny-sized objects for the maximum number of targets. (this can possibly be cast before combat to speed things up a round.)

Round 2 (assuming that you didn't get the chance to do a pre-combat set up): Attack with EB for your action for 3 - 4 attack rolls, then, you can use AS for a second normal action to attack again with EB for another 3 - 4 attacks, then use your bonus action to have all of the Animated objects attack for 10 more attack rolls.

Granted you won't be doing massive damage as each attack roll will not do a lot of damage, but it will all add up and the more attacks you get to hit, the more damage you can do. All in all you should (barring things like counter spell and other interferences) be getting 16 attacks in a single round (18 if you are at lv. 17+). Also, this only works once, but all those die rolls!

Any ideas on ways to improve upon the concept or advice for making it work better?

[MaxWilson]

Any ideas on ways to improve upon the concept or advice for making it work better?

Since you're counting summons... Summon 32 velociraptors (2 attacks each) and command them to attack. Then use Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast for eight more attacks. Total: 72 attacks.

Requires: warlock 2, sorcerer 3, druid 5, 9 more levels of a spellcasting class besides warlock. Shepherd Druid 14/Divine Soul 4/Fiendlock 2 for example.

[samcifer]

Since you're counting summons... Summon 32 velociraptors (2 attacks each) and command them to attack. Then use Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast for eight more attacks. Total: 72 attacks.

Requires: warlock 2, sorcerer 3, druid 5, 9 more levels of a spellcasting class besides warlock. Shepherd Druid 14/Divine Soul 4/Fiendlock 2 for example.

Wow, is that one even legal? :)

[MaxWilson]

Wow, is that one even legal? :)

It's legal but complete overkill. In practice, 16 animals (of any type, really) is more than sufficient and only requires a 5th level slot instead of 9th.

[Ganymede]

Any ideas on ways to improve upon the concept or advice for making it work better?

This would work a lot better if you instead ended up with fewer but better attacks. See if you can find a way to lower it down to two or three attacks in a turn that hit harder.

[Tanarii]

Wow, is that one even legal? :)
No. But you could do it by quickening the summon spell and using your action to cast the cantrip.

[samcifer]

This would work a lot better if you instead ended up with fewer but better attacks. See if you can find a way to lower it down to two or three attacks in a turn that hit harder.

The premise is to make as many attack rolls as possible.

[Citan]

Well, you know...
I rarely handled familiars and magic items altogether, but I'm pretty sure that nothing in RAW opposes familiars using magic items, including Rings of Spell Storing as long as you have attunement slots.

So...
Go Tomelock with Pact of the Chain.
Grab three levels of Beastmaster Ranger if really your DM would refuse you to just have a non-familiar pet that could attune to items and would refuse it to work on Find Steed too (reason for that is Warlock's Chain Pact is just amped Find Familiar).

But normally there is no RAW reason to deny to Find Steed something you would allow to familiar (especially since Find Steed's creature has 6 Intelligence and can speak).

So get Lore Bard 6 (Find Steed, Conjure Animals) / Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 4 (we still need Quicken after all), complement how you want with caster levels so you still have 9th level slots.

Now just get hands on two, or three Rings of Spell Storing (actually I'd say get a stock of it so you have your combo at the ready any following day).

You're ready?
Chain Familiar cast a 5th level Conjure Animals: 16*1/4 CR creatures.
Find Steed cast a 5th level Conjure Animals: 16*1/4 CR creatures.
YOU cast a 9th level Conjure Animals: 32*1/4 CR creatures.
If you go Velociraptors, congrats, you now have 64 creatures that can at least make one attack and, on a successful Charge > Prone make a second attack.
Best case ever? 128 attacks in one round, barring what you do with Quicken. :)

[MaxWilson]

Well, you know...
I rarely handled familiars and magic items altogether, but I'm pretty sure that nothing in RAW opposes familiars using magic items, including Rings of Spell Storing as long as you have attunement slots.

So...
Go Tomelock with Pact of the Chain.
Grab three levels of Beastmaster Ranger if really your DM would refuse you to just have a non-familiar pet that could attune to items and would refuse it to work on Find Steed too (reason for that is Warlock's Chain Pact is just amped Find Familiar).

But normally there is no RAW reason to deny to Find Steed something you would allow to familiar (especially since Find Steed's creature has 6 Intelligence and can speak).

So get Lore Bard 6 (Find Steed, Conjure Animals) / Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 4 (we still need Quicken after all), complement how you want with caster levels so you still have 9th level slots.

Now just get hands on two, or three Rings of Spell Storing (actually I'd say get a stock of it so you have your combo at the ready any following day).

You're ready?
Chain Familiar cast a 5th level Conjure Animals: 16*1/4 CR creatures.
Find Steed cast a 5th level Conjure Animals: 16*1/4 CR creatures.
YOU cast a 9th level Conjure Animals: 32*1/4 CR creatures.
If you go Velociraptors, congrats, you now have 64 creatures that can at least make one attack and, on a successful Charge > Prone make a second attack.
Best case ever? 128 attacks in one round, barring what you do with Quicken. :)

Technically there is nothing stopping your summoned animals from casting spells out of rings of spell storing either. Just need Extended Spell metamagic or Planar Binding to keep them around long enough to attune the rings.

So there really is no theoretical upper limit, just the practical limit of "how many rings of spell storing do you have?"

[samcifer]

well rings and special items will be unlikely as the people who dm my group tend to make up their own stuff or go with +1 (- 3) items The most special item I've seen our dms give out is a shield that turns the bearer into a dwarven woman over time (a few days) regardless of previous race and gender.

[MaxWilson]

well rings and special items will be unlikely as the people who dm my group tend to make up their own stuff or go with +1 (- 3) items The most special item I've seen our dms give out is a shield that turns the bearer into a dwarven woman over time (a few days) regardless of previous race and gender.

Another way to get a massive number of "attacks" is by abusing Animate Dead. For a high-level Necromancer, it's trivial to get 100+ skeletons, and if you give them all shortswords, they can dual-wield for 200+ attacks per turn. They won't get their +2 to damage on the second attack from Dex, but they will get the +6 to damage from Undead Thralls (Necromancer's proficiency bonus gets added to their damage).

Again, this is not anywhere close to the theoretical limit of what is possible, but it's still way more than you'll actually need in practice. (Also, in practice, missile weapons are better than dual shortswords anyway, due to the ability to concentrate fire. Crossbows are good, longbows are better, if the skeletons have longbow proficiency.)

[Citan]

Another way to get a massive number of "attacks" is by abusing Animate Dead. For a high-level Necromancer, it's trivial to get 100+ skeletons, and if you give them all shortswords, they can dual-wield for 200+ attacks per turn. They won't get their +2 to damage on the second attack from Dex, but they will get the +6 to damage from Undead Thralls (Necromancer's proficiency bonus gets added to their damage).

Again, this is not anywhere close to the theoretical limit of what is possible, but it's still way more than you'll actually need in practice. (Also, in practice, missile weapons are better than dual shortswords anyway, due to the ability to concentrate fire. Crossbows are good, longbows are better, if the skeletons have longbow proficiency.)
I thought about Animate Dead too but from what I recall there is a limit at least in Adventure League that requires attunement of minions to count against your own limit. That's why I didn't push the reasoning. Because per that limit, you'd have to give rings to NPC that are not "under your control" and I'm not sure I'd like to give rings charged with powers to creatures I don't have under my grip.

Also, how do you reach the 100+? Wizard's Simulacrum + Warlock's 3rd level short rest? Even like that I fail to see, could you detail plz?
... Oh. You were maybe thinking about storing plenty of Animate Dead in Rings to pop them all in a grand day?
The problem I see is finding enough corpses to do it, you'd basically need to burn down an entire village or army corp to do this. ^^

[MaxWilson]

Also, how do you reach the 100+? Wizard's Simulacrum + Warlock's 3rd level short rest? Even like that I fail to see, could you detail plz?

I was guesstimating based on memory. Let's see...

Assuming PHB spell slots instead of spell points, 20th level wizard has 9 + 8 + 7x2 + 6x2 + 5x3 + 4x3 + 3x3, plus 5x2 from Arcane Recovery. That makes 16 + 14 + 12x2 + 10x2 + 8x5 + 6x3 + 3x4 = 144 skeletons maximum.

If using spell points, the calculation is more straightforward: 133 spell points at 7 spell points per skeleton is 19 castings of Animate Dead V. 133/7 * 8 = 152 skeletons maximum. Pretty close to the spell slot totals, and 100+ either way.

And yes, you could do something like Necromancer 6/Warlock 11 instead, to get 24 skeletons per short rest, which easily hits 100 skeletons per day. (But in practice, it's better to just be a straight Necromancer and simply transition from skeletons to something else, like Geased + Mass Suggestioned wights that you previously created via Create Undead, or Planar-Bound elementals/genies/demons.)

[Contrast]

It's worth saying that some of these strategies will fall into problems in that physically getting that many combatants either into the combat generally or in combat with the specific person you want may be difficult. Animate Objects has the advantage that the objects are tiny and can fly meaning you can usually not worry too much about it but 32 velociraptors are a different question :smallwink:

[MaxWilson]

It's worth saying that some of these strategies will fall into problems in that physically getting that many combatants either into the combat generally or in combat with the specific person you want may be difficult. Animate Objects has the advantage that the objects are tiny and can fly meaning you can usually not worry too much about it but 32 velociraptors are a different question :smallwink:

Yes, AFB but IIRC velociraptors are Tiny, so 32 raptors occupy 8 squares, and it could be awkward to maneuver all the raptors to attack the same target. It's a lot easier than if they were all Medium though.

But that is one reason why why skeletons are typically better in practice than melee combatants (as noted above in post #11, "Also, in practice, missile weapons are better than dual shortswords anyway, due to the ability to concentrate fire. Crossbows are good, longbows are better, if the skeletons have longbow proficiency"). Another reason is that 32 raptors all in one place are far more vulnerable to AoE (Spirit Guardians, Fireball, etc.) than the equivalent number of skeletons shooting arrows would be; though obviously that depends on the terrain and how spread out the skeletons can be while retaining line-of-sight.

[Contrast]

Yes, AFB but IIRC velociraptors are Tiny, so 32 raptors occupy 8 squares, and it could be awkward to maneuver all the raptors to attack the same target. It's a lot easier than if they were all Medium though.

You're quite right. That'll teach me to mentally envisage things based on Jurassic Park :smallbiggrin:

[DrowPiratRobrts]

And we haven't even gotten into the Simulacrum "Gamebreaker 2" builds. An infinite number of level 20 Wizards at your command? Yeah, you can't beat that.

EDIT: We played a one-off and my buddy had like 1000 Simulacrums waiting in a pocket dimension. He cast globe of darkness or some such then went into the plane without us knowing and brought out like 10 of them that were invisible to follow him around. I knew what was happening because I gave him the idea, but the party was confused when random fireballs and such started popping off.

[strangebloke]

OP, if you don't allow summoning I'm pretty sure that action surge + quickened EB is going to be the highest number. 12 is perfectly respectable. If you say "per round" instead of "per turn" you can add another 4 from casting EB as a reaction via warcaster. (with crossbow expert to get rid of the disadvantage)

As to summoning.... blech. Generally my rule is that a player shouldn't be rolling things for more than 3-5 characters. Three being the max of what I'd allow a slow player, and five being what I'd allow a fast one.

Don't waste everyone's time with your stupid munchkin's paradise with 87 attacks. If you've got more minions, I'm in control of them, not you. And I'm running them my way.

20 minions? Each has a +4? AC to hit is 16? That's a 45% chance to hit, and average damage is six.

6*.45*20=54

*pretend dice rolls* *cough* "Gary, the horde of skeletons takes aim and fires, releasing a burst of 54 damage"

...Even then, I'll probably just ask you to not. Like, do you think this makes the game more fun for anyone other than yourself? I get it, it works (sometimes) but it's a huge hassle for everyone.

[MaxWilson]

And we haven't even gotten into the Simulacrum "Gamebreaker 2" builds. An infinite number of level 20 Wizards at your command? Yeah, you can't beat that.

You can't beat that but you can hijack it with illusions. :-) Since all of the Simulacra have presumably been ordered by their respective creators to obey "you", all a given person has to do is convince a simulacrum that she is "you", voila! root access, including the ability to change the simulacrum's standing orders and who it obeys.

This is pure theorycraft though since I don't actually run Simulacrum by PHB rules anyway. (I run it with the AD&D-inspired version: works on any creature, but has no volition, knowledge, or ability to display initiative, and has only a fraction of the abilities of the original--but is able to recharge spell slots. It's a pale imitation of the original instead of a full-capability duplicate. A Simulacrum of the king, for instance, can stand in for the king if necessary but people will know something is deeply wrong with the situation.)


EDIT: We played a one-off and my buddy had like 1000 Simulacrums waiting in a pocket dimension. He cast globe of darkness or some such then went into the plane without us knowing and brought out like 10 of them that were invisible to follow him around. I knew what was happening because I gave him the idea, but the party was confused when random fireballs and such started popping off.

Heh. Good story.

[samcifer]

Yeah, during the last session our rogue character threw out ball bearings to try to trip a pit fiend but he failed, so on my turn I cast Animate Objects on them to animate 10 of them, then used my bonus action for that same turn to have all of them attack the pit fiend, rolling 2d20 five times for their attack rolls. 6 of the 10 hit, but during the third roll of the five, I got a double crit (:D) and a third crit on one of the last two rolls. The DM said the ones that did full damage but were destroyed. I got 2 of the remaining 4 to hit on my next turn and the last two on the third turn the spell was active.