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DeathQuaker
2007-09-08, 12:13 PM
I am a GM running a campaign that will end within the next few sessions. The party's main nemesis has been an organization of assassins and spies known as the Ebon Serpent. The party knows that their leader may possibly have great powers of mental dominance, but they know nothing else about him.

Their final, climactic battle will end up being with this leader, who will turn out to be a mind flayer.

My dilemma is that a standard issue mind flayer is around CR 8. The party will probably be around level 15 by the time they run into him, so he needs to be more powerful.

I had a recent brainstrorm that since the theme of the group the Illithid leads is "Ebon Serpent" that it might be interesting to apply the half-dragon template to the flayer, making him black dragon kin. This would result in a pretty horrific looking monster, with stats that make him more of a force to be reckoned with. That still only puts him at about CR 10, with about 65 HP.

There are of course other options about adding class levels and the like. And the location of the fight will also put a damper on some things for the party (see below). I am not sure what would work best -- and if I want to add class levels, would it be better to forget about the half-black dragon and just give more class levels?

Other options are giving the Flayer some minions, but I'd like input on tactics and/or possibly what kind to use (constructs or undead might suit).

I'd appreciate any input. I want this fight to be *tough* -- this is the climax of a 2 year campaign. While it should be clear it's possible for characters to die in this fight, I don't want instant party kill. That's no fun for me or my players.

Things to keep in mind:

- First, I am running this as largely a core only campaign. Please refrain from grabbing solutions from various splatbooks, as I probably don't own them. I'm looking for creative but simple solutions that I can implement using what I already have.

Location:

- The fight will take place in a stone circular chamber, probably about 60' feet in diameter, relatively empty save for a stone table in the center with the MacGuffin on top. The only physical entrance will be the door the party comes through. The flayer entered -- and can escape by -- using a special artifact he wears around his neck.

- The chamber is under the influence of a barrier spell that blocks planar travel -- so no summoning, etc. (the artifact the flayer has bypasses this, but only affects him-- he still can't summon or go ethereal).

- The MacGuffin can't be taken off the table--only destroyed in a ritual (the party's goal) or subverted by magic for nefarious purposes (the Ebon Serpent's goal). The flayer will do all he can to maintain access to the MacGuffin, though will likely try to flee if the party overpowers him.

- There is powerful Negative Energy in the chamber. Dying there for anyone is not a good thing.

The party:

- Member 1 is a halfling CG Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer. He's an effective finesse based melee-er with a Shocking Rapier. He's mobile, and does massive scary damage when he manages to flank someone. He also can get his AC up to around 27 with various feats and equipment, making him hard to hit, and anything that requires a Reflex save is a joke to him. If he can't get a sneak attack off, his effectiveness is a lot more minimized. Some of his Shadowdancer abilities will be nerfed by the planar barrier in the room, so I don't want to restrict him too much more -- my main issue with him is finding a good way to keep him from flanking too soon and sneak attacking the flayer to death in two rounds. The player is experienced, adaptive, and creative.

- Member 2 is a human CG Cleric of a god of secrets, mischief, and shadows (domains: Knowledge and Trickery). She prefers standing back and fighting with her (powerful) magic bow, and moving in behind the meleeers to buff or heal them as necessary. She will buff herself and join melee if need be, but this is generally a last resort for her; she has a magic item that can give her 20% concealment for a few rounds, which helps in this case. Her primary weakness is the player more than the character -- she's very indecisive, and has never bothered to become as knowledgable of her spell list as she should be. But she's kind of a wild card -- she can hinder the party with her indecision, or she could come up with a creative solution with her abilities I might not have thought of.

- Member 3 is a human CG Ranger. He may take a couple levels of Barbarian or Horizon Walker by the time this combat occurs. He is a TWFer with a flaming warhammer and spiked shield. He does lots of damage but in little bits--damage reduction screws him up a lot (though MFs don't have DR). He has poor wisdom so very little spellcasting, just a good melee character. He often works in tandem with the Shadowdancer to set up flanking. Player likes up close and personal combat, and his melee abilities are his main schtick.

- Member 4 is a human LG Paladin. He's not an uber-tank as his points are spread a little thin (curse of Paladins), but a solid melee supporter with his axe and shield. His paladin abilities give him a good chance to save from the MFs attacks. He has an ability from his shield to instantly take half of another party member's damage if he chooses to (3x a day). The chamber's barrier won't allow him to summon his mount. Player's even minded and seems to prioritize supporting the party in combat as a whole rather than achieving max damage by himself.

- The party's obvious weakness is no arcane spellcaster support. Not sure how to best take advantage of this, however, beyond the fact that if I make him an arcane caster, they have no chance to recognize or counter spells.

- They rely on melee (with archery and spell support from the cleric) to do the majority of their damage. I don't want to completely deny them melee but I also know that if they flank the creature right away, he'll probably be dead before he'll get to do anything interesting.

- Nearly everyone but the cleric has a pretty high AC (and hers isn't bad), and they also hit pretty hard, so generally I need opponents with a good attack bonus (or other effective method to attack) and armor class to match.

Thanks for reading. :smallsmile:

Bryn
2007-09-08, 12:24 PM
One fairly easy way to deny them flanking and therefore rapid destruction of the Flayer would be flight. Since they have no arcane caster, they can only fly through certain very expensive magic items, so having the Mind Flayer cast Fly or Overland Flight on himself before the battle would be a fairly easy way to deny them these attacks. This would, of course meaningless if the PCs can fly, and in any case it perhaps isn't the best idea since they would have a hard time getting him down again (without Dispel Magic or similar), so some of them have to wait for the Cleric to take him down with the her bow. Naturally, if the chamber's ceiling is low, this would be pointless, but I get the impression that it's a fairly large room.

Douglas
2007-09-08, 12:32 PM
For a simple (in concept and sources required, at least) way to play to his strengths, use the Psionic Mind Flayer from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and then add Psion levels. If you don't have that book, all you really need to know is that it replaces the "Psionics" entry in the Monster Manual with manifesting psionic powers as a 9th level Psion (Telepath). It's got a list of typical powers known, but you'll have to customize that anyway if you add more levels of Psion. The rules for Psions are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), along with the psionic powers overview (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm) and list of psionic powers (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowers.htm) (also by level (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm)), and pretty much everything else from the XPH except iconic monsters and flavor text.

CthulhuM
2007-09-08, 12:39 PM
Well, I don't know if you include psionics when you say "core only," but if you do then beefing up the mind flayer should be really easy. The psionic version of the mind flayer (i.e. the one that actually uses psionic rules instead of spell-like abilities called "psionics") is treated as a 9th level telepath. I'm not clear on exactly what level your party is, but adding levels of psion(telepath) until his caster level is a few above the party's will definitely make him more dangerous (and psions and many psionics powers are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), so you can do this even if you don't have the book).

(EDIT: woo, redundancy!)

Alternatively, you could give him sorcerer class levels if you don't want to deal with psionic rules. The first 8 would be non-associated, so you could, for example, up his CR to 19 by making him a level 15 sorcerer.

And then, of course, there's always the option of giving him some dominated muscle to keep the players busy while he screws with their heads. Throwing in some Umber Hulks (CR 7) or Truly Horrid Umber Hulks (CR 14) would be both effective and appropriate.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-08, 12:52 PM
One fairly easy way to deny them flanking and therefore rapid destruction of the Flayer would be flight. Since they have no arcane caster, they can only fly through certain very expensive magic items, so having the Mind Flayer cast Fly or Overland Flight on himself before the battle would be a fairly easy way to deny them these attacks. This would, of course meaningless if the PCs can fly, and in any case it perhaps isn't the best idea since they would have a hard time getting him down again (without Dispel Magic or similar), so some of them have to wait for the Cleric to take him down with the her bow. Naturally, if the chamber's ceiling is low, this would be pointless, but I get the impression that it's a fairly large room.

It's an interesting idea. I was planning for the ceiling to be domed, so the center of it is probably high enough for the flayer to fly above their heads, but not too much higher, so he probably would have fairly limited maneuvering. Those conditions might be enough to keep it from being completely frustrating, but still challenging.

The party does not have access to flight. I think I was considering having them find a potion of flight or two in the area they are currently exploring, but they are likely to also use them in the area they are currently exploring, before they encounter this creature. Not that I should count on that--but if they save them, good for them. And the shape of the room would still limit their maneuverability too. Hmm.

Douglas

I don't have the expanded Psionics handbook, but psionics are of course appropriate to the creature. I'll look up the relevant info in the SRD.

Thanks.

....
2007-09-08, 01:10 PM
If any of them has low Will saves, give the MF something like dominate and turn them against one another.

Also, if you don't want to give the Illithid minions, consider adding activated traps to the room that it'll be able to use on the PCs to slow them down. Or give it scrolls/spells/powers specifically designed to counter the party's strengths and exploit their weaknesses. This illithid has been clashing with them beind the scenes for awhile yes?

And don't make the mind flayer half-dragon. Just a personal gripe I have, but the way illithids reproduce excludes them being half anything (and don't get me started on illithid heritage)

bosssmiley
2007-09-08, 02:05 PM
Three little words: "Lords of Madness". :smallwink:

Core only you say? Advance the BBEG's sorcerer levels per the advancing monster guidelines in the MM, or rebuild him as an advanced Psionic Mind Flayer (per the Psionics section of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)) for additional CR-b0rked GM ~evil~ cheese. Players HAET BBEGs with full caster progression.

Give him minions, lots of them. Tough in their own right.
Give him GM fiat plot cheatery to reflects his genius intellect and inhuman cunning (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.Chessmaster) (eg: he has metagame knowledge, like knowing - and preparing counters for - the players' favoured combat strategies).
For added insult parody the characters own strategies back at them ("I learned this trick from scrying on you. Not bad for food animals...")
Bring on the complications! Hostages, evil reinforcements, trapped terrain, etc.

SadisticFishing
2007-09-08, 02:26 PM
Yeah, you can do a lot with him, depending on how you want the fight to go.

But this post is really to respond to Illithid Heritage - seriously... what!? How does that make any sense at all?

Behold_the_Void
2007-09-08, 02:40 PM
I say go Psion. Remember, base Illithid HD stacks with Psion levels for powers.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 02:43 PM
Tauric Illithids (that is, Illithids with more than one head) are extra terrifying. The template is somewhere on the WotC website, but I can't seem to find it right now.

EDIT: The Multiheaded Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20020621a) might suffice for you. It adds HD, so you'd get more HP out of the deal too.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-08, 02:46 PM
Yeah, you can do a lot with him, depending on how you want the fight to go.

But this post is really to respond to Illithid Heritage - seriously... what!? How does that make any sense at all?

Apparently, Illithids evolve naturally at some point in the future (unless our timeline deviates too much), so the Illithid Heritage guys are actually the ancestors of Illithids. Yeah, that's right: Illithids are so badass that their ancestors take on the traits of them! :smallamused:

As far as Half-Dragon goes: You could always blame it on a MacGuffin-powered transformation (and, hey, it's the last fight of the campaign, so your PCs can't abuse it).


Tauric Illithids (that is, Illithids with more than one head) are extra terrifying.

Are you sure that's tauric? I'd think a tauric Illitid would be a monster with an Illitid head and torso but an animal body (*shudder*).

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-09-08, 02:49 PM
I"d give him some wizard (or any other arcane class for that matter) levels. That should do the trick.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-08, 02:53 PM
Are you sure that's tauric? I'd think a tauric Illitid would be a monster with an Illitid head and torso but an animal body (*shudder*).

Right, wrong template. Multiheaded (which I linked to) is what I was thinking of. There's also Chimeric out of MM-III.

Still, Tauric Illithids are scary too.

The_Snark
2007-09-08, 02:55 PM
On the slightly off-topic question of Illithid Heritage and illithid half-breeds—I've always treated them as the result of mind flayer experimentation. Illithid Heritage represents having been experimented on in the past, or being the descendent of an escaped experiment. Illithids with the half-something template are the result of mind flayers implanting tadpoles in nonstandard creatures; a half-dragon mind flayer could be the result of an implanted half-dragon, a half-fiend mind flayer is the product of implanting a devil.

Psion is probably best if you're using them.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-08, 03:00 PM
Give him minions, lots of them. Tough in their own right.
Give him GM fiat plot cheatery to reflects his genius intellect and inhuman cunning (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.Chessmaster) (eg: he has metagame knowledge, like knowing - and preparing counters for - the players' favoured combat strategies).
For added insult parody the characters own strategies back at them ("I learned this trick from scrying on you. Not bad for food animals...")
Bring on the complications! Hostages, evil reinforcements, trapped terrain, etc.

Whoa, I know you need to show he's smart & cunning, but I draw the line at GM fiat plot cheatery. The GM should have an explanation for anything he knows besides "I know because I'm the GM's pet monster!" Any method he uses of spying on the PCs requires saves or skill rolls, giving the PCs a chance to bugger it up. If you give him the information without giving the PCs a chance to screw it up, they'll feel cheated.

Scrying can be negated by saves and is iffy at best; the typical PC adventures/fights 1-2 hours a day tops, how will he know exactly when to tune in?

Raising a dead minion and questioning him about the PCs' strategies could work. Sending a spy against them works (but requires Spot/Listen checks). Dominating a former ally and questioning him about them works (but starts rumors about his disappearance/behavior). Figure out what method he'd use, how the PCs could bugger it up, and what information he wouldn't get from it. If knows almost everything about them, but is surprised by a few things, it feels more realistic.

Other than that, definitely have a few minions with him. I'd suggest not all of them be dominated, though.

tannish2
2007-09-08, 03:17 PM
well. the ulitharid from lords of madness (like libris mortis for abberations) is CR 12 basically just a super mind flayer, add a couple psion levels (have them stack with mind flayer caster level) and your good. have him get at least a potion of fly but if you absolutely cant get your hands on that one then i guess psion (or sorcerer if your a nonpsionic campaign, or, if the players just havent asked then add a few psion levels to your mind flayer take away his spell-like abilities and replace them with their psionic equivelants will suprise the players, but wont be overpowered, and make him a blaster so that he has fewer save or die spells, also a psionic blaster can choose fortitude (cold damage) or reflex on most of his blasting spells, so it works quite well and there wont be too many save or dies, which are fun for everybody.) oh, and if you make him a psionic mind controll thing, look at the thrallherd class from (well you dont have it, but i think its in the SRD under psoionc presteige classes)

Anxe
2007-09-08, 04:27 PM
Give the mindflayer some Grimlock minions and max it's HP. Might want to buff the grimlocks too. The perfect template, Voidmind is in the Psionics handbook, but if you don't have that then just increase their size to large.

Bunny of Faith
2007-09-08, 04:52 PM
This is more out of curiosity, but could a mind flayer become a lich?

Mewtarthio
2007-09-08, 04:57 PM
This is more out of curiosity, but could a mind flayer become a lich?

Not a normal lich, since he's an aberration, but there's still a special Illitid lich template (I believe it's called "Alhoon").

The_Snark
2007-09-08, 04:59 PM
Technically, the standard lich template only applies to humanoids, but somebody at Wizards also liked the idea, and so there's a mind flayer lich in Lords of Madness. The rules aren't actually any different.

(They're pretty tough, though; mind flayer CR plus 11 class levels plus the increase from the lich template.)

Balkash
2007-09-08, 05:06 PM
natni8: yes, mind flayer liches are called alhoans (i know its spelled wrong, but its close). those are scary


but anyways, if you do have wizard or sorcerer levels on the flayer, maybe you could choose to use spells with ranged touch attacks? im assuming the players AC's are much lower for touch attacks. If not, then try area spells or grease or web to try to get around the high AC's.

:triple repitition, yay!:

ocato
2007-09-08, 05:10 PM
Ooh! Puzzle room! Make the room have different color/shaped tiles that operate as traps and switches while the mindflayer flies around shoot them with his wizard levels. Make the tiles electrified, open up doors with traps and guys who rush in, and some of them lower the ceiling or bring up platforms/raise the tile magically. Might be fun.

Irreverent Fool
2007-09-08, 05:44 PM
And don't make the mind flayer half-dragon. Just a personal gripe I have, but the way illithids reproduce excludes them being half anything (and don't get me started on illithid heritage)

Illithids don't breed, they stick little larval illithid spawn in your ear and you become an illithid after some nastiness and brain-eating. This is true. However, sometimes things go wrong or illithids experiment by implanting the larva in non-humanoids.

I don't really see the problem with half-illithid things. Obviously the transformation didn't work entirely. There was this nice little 2nd ed. book that was all about illithids, unfortunately my copy was ruined by water damage. I'll post the title if I can remember it. It really didn't use too much in the way of stats, just described society and how things came to be.

If you're going to give the illithid class levels, my personal favorite is barbarian. Your little squid-faced friend blasts a little bit and then picks up his greatsword and uses deathblow to coup-de-grace anyone stunned by his blast (might want to up the DC with some spell-like feats. Names escape me) as standard actions then proceeds to go into a rage and start hacking like crazy while swooping down on the party with that flight spell that was mentioned (So sorc/barb I guess). If you want to be less deadly, don't do the coup-de-grace bit.

One suggestion: Don't have him try to eat brains in mid-combat. I can't see why an illithid would do such a thing.

AslanCross
2007-09-08, 05:55 PM
natni8: yes, mind flayer liches are called alhoans (i know its spelled wrong, but its close). those are scary


Alhoons. :D

I think it would be a good idea to give the Illithid some companions. A couple of enslaved ogre barbarians would be good. If you want a higher encounter level (what's your target, anyway?), a couple of Iron golems might be quite a challenge, and they could be programmed to "bull rush anything that gets too close to me" by the boss, just to prevent sneak attacks.

There's also an Illithid with sorcerer levels in the Monster Manual. I think a Half Black Dragon Illithid sorcerer would be a terrifying foe.

Belteshazzar
2007-09-08, 08:23 PM
A Mind Flayer may have a pool or well of spawn with which to focus it's psionic abilities. The singular power of a lone spawn is not grand enough to do more than emit emotions, but in a swarm...

A cool battleground could be on a slippery checkerboard of crystal with the black squares being represented by deep dark spawnfilled water and the white squares are represented by smooth crystal leveled with the water.

If you want to get really mean then the crystals could be moved up or down during the battle. All you need now is a pipe organ and give the mindflayer a cloak and a brilliant energy weapon *coughlightsabercough* and you are set.

P.S. The Psionic Ithilid is more powerful ,but the only thing it misses out on is the ability to use its planeshift ability as a touch attack (Planeshift: when "Go to Hell!" is a command, not a request.)

DraPrime
2007-09-08, 08:41 PM
I know you said core only, but Book of Vile Darkness has one great PrC that I would recommend, the Soul Eater. I once used one in a campaign as a villain, and when I said to the player "Your soul was sucked out, and you rise as a wight." the look on my players' faces was hilarious. Nothing freaks people out more than a mindflayer that can take your soul and make you his slave. But if you don't want to do this then just go with making it a psion.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-08, 09:20 PM
Go with the genius mind, insanity, puzzles, minions, planar mucking and the fact that he WANTS powerful adventurers to show up so he can turn them into minions.

When they find the mindflayer, it won't be the mindflayer. When they bypass a trap, its because they are getting ensnared in an even larger trap. Use repetitive identical rooms to make them think they are going in circles. At some point, duplicate at least one of them with a mirror of opposition. Then separate them and have dopplegangers duplicate them. At another point, separate them again and hand one of the players a note. Eventually, use phantasms to make them think that they are fighting the mind flayer when in fact they are targeting each other. Have a gate open in front of them with three of the party, beaten down and worn out (future selves, sans paladin), then give the current party some red herring "You will know when to use this." and then point at the Paladin and say "This is all your fault! We told you not to wear that helmet!" Then have the 'future selves' jump back into the gateway. The future selves are really dopplegangers with some sort of D-door abilities and some illusions. The red herring is really a means for the mind flayer to eavesdrop on the party.

0oo0
2007-09-08, 09:39 PM
If you want to take the Mind Flayer in an entirely different direction than expected, make it an Ithilid Body Tamer, from the Underdark source book. Beef it up with some tentacle extensions, and you have a melee monster.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-08, 10:01 PM
Thanks all for the great responses; I don't think I've ever gotten this many replies to anything I've ever posted here. :)

Am looking at the Psion and Psychic Warrior classes.... though I am wondering if it's not such a good idea to bring in classes/abilities I've never really worked with before for a final battle (nothing's worse than having the big battle and having the GM go, "Oh, wait, let me double check to see what this does...). I am however giving myself plenty of time to prepare for this, so I'll see what I can do. I'm also looking at Sorcerer and Cleric. (I've been thinking about it, andBlade Barrier would be a cool thing to throw up against them, to help keep them from flanking.)

The suggestions for nasty puzzles within the room are great in theory, but unfortunately don't quite fit the scenario for the encounter. The area where the fight will take place doesn't belong to the flayer.... basically, both the flayer and the party are trying to get to this buried chamber with the MacGuffin in it, the Flayer's gotten there first and the party needs to stop him from doing nasty things with the MacGuffin. So he won't have had much time to subvert the chamber for his uses; it just wouldn't make sense in a way that the players would definitely call me on it (and rightfully so).

He might be able to dominate some other creatures nearby... the chamber is int he center of an underground complex of tunnels, and there are some delvers in the area.... Anxe's suggestion of Grimlocks is a very good one too; I'd forgotten about them, and they suit the scenario perfectly.

Re: intelligence on the party: The Flayer dominated the leader of the investigative agency the party was working for, so has intelligence on the party via the agency (oddly, the party met the leader and thought he was acting strangely, but decided it just meant the leader was a jerk, not that anything nefarious was going on). Fortunately for the party, they've been away from the agency for about a month, so his knowledge isn't up to date, but what he does have is solid. He will have reasonable knowledge about the party. He won't know their every move or every piece of equipment they have, but he will be relatively prepared for meeting them.

The_Snark mentioned the half-dragon template being a result of experimentation, which is exactly what he would be if I decided to go that route.... he's a bit of an outcast, not been with his own society for awhile, and him being an aberration among aberrations suited my idea for him.

Thanks again for the posts -- and please post any other ideas you have! I appreciate your efforts.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-08, 10:17 PM
I'd definitely use Psion. Psionics is pretty simple--just read the powers and reread the rules beforehand. The important things to remember are Manifester (Psionic Caster) Level determines how many PP you can spend on each power. Augmenting powers does exactly what it says it does for each power--you spend extra PP for a particular increasive in effectiveness, for example, Energy Ball lets you get an extra die of damage for every PP you spend--but unlike Fireball, Energy Ball doesn't scale automatically! Manifest it with 5 PP (the minimum) and it will do 5d6. Augmenting a power is basically like manifesting a higher level version of that power.

Another advantage of using Psion is that Mind Flayers are telepaths, and so have access to the Schism power, which effectively gets the BBEG more actions (good against a party).

You could also use the Thrallherd prestige class, giving him melee thralls to guard him.


As re: the Dominated leader, I think it's something like a DC 15 Sense Motive check to see that someone is under the influence of a Dominate; hopefully you gave your party that.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-08, 10:43 PM
As re: the Dominated leader, I think it's something like a DC 15 Sense Motive check to see that someone is under the influence of a Dominate; hopefully you gave your party that.


Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you.

I'd presume that, if you run into anything suspicious, you can spend a minute talking with the guy to discover The Horrible Truth, but you have to actively do so.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-08, 10:47 PM
I'd presume that, if you run into anything suspicious, you can spend a minute talking with the guy to discover The Horrible Truth, but you have to actively do so.

I don't think that applies to the "Detect Enchantment" special use of the skill, any more than it would apply to rolling Sense Motive to oppose a Bluff check.

bingo_bob
2007-09-08, 11:16 PM
Mainly, it sounds like you're going to want him to be very mobile.

Not necessarily flying. As has been said, that makes the encounter unfun. However, you're still really going to want some way to avoid getting flanked into insta-death.

The whole 'dimensional lock' thingy is a bit tough. If you want to fudge it a bit, I think it'd be neat to have the mind flayer dimension door around a bit, staying within reach of the players, but forcing them to move around. If it looks like he's going to get flanked, dimension door him to the other side of the room, and then let him open up with a ranged attack of some sort. Your cleric will consistently hit him, and the other players will be able to go for him (particularly if they smarten up, and position themselves so he can't get away from all of them), but he'll go down much slower.

huyneo
2007-09-08, 11:36 PM
Give him a Extend Tentacles Spell, from Spell Compendium.
increases reach with tentacles by 5ft.
So more suctionyness!

kemmotar
2007-09-09, 07:30 AM
You could also make him a cleric and add a few shadesteel golems, CR11-greater shadesteel golem CR 14,(MM III) he took with him to protect him in case the PCs showed up or there were defenders in the cave...When a golem is dying have him cast inflict (something) wounds mass to both heal the golems and damage the pcs.

Alternatively simply have the golems use their negative pulse wave (shadesteel golems get healed by negative energy) when in trouble and have the mindflayer blast em after a while...maybe say something underestimating like my minions are enough to take care of you and have him lay back for a while the golems prevent the PCs from going near the flayer.

Another idea would be to have dominated dopplegagners taking the form of the mindflayer(exact same clothes etc) to confuse the PCs, and for added confusion have them cast mirror image at the same time: P...talk about an army of mindflayers.

As a nice plot twist, have the mindflayer through a minion or while polymorphed hire the PCs in order to learn more about them and/or give them some kind of cursed magic item and let the PCs figure it out...give them some clues though...

I dont think adding template upon template will be very helpful...mindflayer is strong enough as it is and adding templates will only reduce his hp. Also making him a lich will make him quite tough but then the rogue will be useless(unless you give him deathstrike bracers, magic items compendium page 93)...In the lords of madness there should be some interesting feats and variants for mindflayers and you could accompany him with a brain stuff golem(dont remember what its called but thats what it looks like:smalltongue: ) in an attempt to intrigue the PCs curiosity to actually learn more about mindflayers (assuming they survive) and leave some clues as to where the nest is so the PCs can follow as an end to the campaign or the start of a new campaign!!

kme
2007-09-09, 08:26 AM
I suggest not making the mind flayer itself too powerful.If you make him a psion give him some defensive abilities, and some powers that look scary.And then design encounter as a non standard, not just some monster bashing.
Idea:
When PCs enter the room the doors shut close.The whole room is filled with humanoids that are trapped in ectoplasm with the mind flayer clearly in the front.He may speak telepathicly with them but they cannot hurt him.Than he do some villain speaking and release some of his minions from ectoplasmic shells.And they have to kill tree waves of his minions before he is released from ectoplasm so they can fight him.The minion waves should be different in their abilities and tactics (rogues that become invisible, spring attacking fighters, mages with weird spells, archers with some strange arrows etc).This will surely be a long and interesting encounter, and PC will have to decide how to spend their resources on each fight.

Awetugiw
2007-09-09, 11:27 AM
I think you really should get the BBEG some more hitpoints. At level 15, the party could take this guy down simply by winning initiative and hitting him on the head before he has time to act.

It doesn't even have to be through real hitpoints. A minion with shield other will effectively double the flayers HP, and it makes sense. (especially if the one taking the damage is dominated or something) If you don't want someone there to cast the spell, you could give him rings of Friend Shield. Also makes pretty nice loot if you want to use the same party for another campaign. Useful without being game-breaking.

Con boosting items also work pretty well. You could give the flayer an amulet of health just strong enough so that the party will use it afterwards. At that level, that probably means +4.

Oh, and illusions are your friend. Invisibility, or if you can somehow give the flayer access to it, greater invis or even mislead make the enemy more dangerous without immediately killing the party.

Iku Rex
2007-09-09, 11:42 AM
Can I be the first to state the obvious? Give the mind flayer assassin levels. Change the basic mind flayer's skill points around to give it 4 ranks of disguise - it's already a "class skill" for it's monster HD - and it's all set for assassin. 8 levels gets it Hide in Plain Sight and 4th level casting. A couple of monk levels on top of that would get it better saves, wis-mod-to-AC, evasion, Deflect Arrows and Improved Grapple.

Depending on whether you consider monk and assassin "associated" levels that's a CR 14-18 encounter. I'd go with 18 I think - it all fits together pretty well if you optimize it a little, especially if you give the mind flayer lots of expensive gear (technically it should have gear as a level 25 NPC, 350 000 gp).

Encounter suggestions:

1. Hide. Preferably before the PCs arrive (listen check) or with Hide in Plain Sight if necessary. With a maxed skill (21 ranks), cloak of elvenkind (or ring of chameleon power) and a decent Dex it'll be very hard to find.
2. If there's time, buff with assassin spells. A Rod of Silent Spells could let it keep casting even after the PCs enter the room.
3. Observe a PC for three rounds (for Death Attack).
4. Hit a presumed low-Will PC with charm monster. Spell-like abilities have no components, so even if the PC makes the save he'll only know that "someone, somewhere just tried to attack my mind".
5. Hit as many as possible with mind blast. (Excluding a charmed PC if you rule that a mysterious blast from an unknown direction would break the charm.)
6. Move (still hiding) up to a non-stunned PC and use Death Attack (paralyze?). If you're worried about missing, drop the mind blast and cast a Silent true strike.

Then you can re-hide (repeat as needed), mind blast again, grapple the last healthy PC or activate a ring of blinking for no-holds-barred melee. (Flurry+tentacles+sneak attack = potentially badass.)

Equipment: Get it a miss chance item (ring of blinking, cloak of displacement). Basic AC items (bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, dusty rose ioun stone) are also handy, if nothing else to avoid full Power Attack. ... of elvenkind items are standard for any sneak. An amulet of mighty fists improves melee.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-10, 06:50 AM
Eh, maybe I'll just go a whole other route and have them be attacked by a dreaded fruit elemental... :smallwink:

http://www.angelfire.com/id/deathquaker/gaming/images/pelemental.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

Not really, but we had healthy snacks at last session. (Don't worry, unhealthy ones and caffeine too.)

Assassin is an interesting idea. Yes, the main thing with the standard flayer is he has too few HP. Assassin or a similar class... might allow him to counter with stuff the party often uses against others.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions. You've all been very helpful. :smallsmile:

Forte
2007-09-10, 07:38 AM
What I would do is give him minions. Not normal minions that challenge the party's character levels... the party is all CG or LG. Challenge this. Have the BBEG surround himself with innocent thralls. Children work very well.

Imagine your party's dismay to see 20 or 30 children between the ages of 8-12, armed, and standing between them and the creature raining mindblasts on them from afar.

If including children offends your sense of morality, then perhaps important NPC characters. Family members, loved ones, confidants, etc. that have played a major roll in the campaign prior to the last fight.

You can even allude to this by playing up those NPC's absence a few sessions before the final confrontation.

Children are easier IMO though. Throwing a few thrall monster among them adds to the danger as well. This offers an exciting melee encounter for several rounds before the PC's can get to the flayer and ZOMGWTFPWN him with sneak attacks, etc.

kme
2007-09-10, 07:45 AM
Eh, maybe I'll just go a whole other route and have them be attacked by a dreaded fruit elemental... :smallwink:


The fruit elemental s so badass :smallbiggrin: .

By the way, did you painted your miniatures yourself?

Ashtar
2007-09-10, 08:02 AM
My experience of BBEG is: Give them minions!

Nothing sucks like a final fight over in two rounds. Round 1 Players: win initiative, get close, bash evil guy, stun / slow / something bad guy.
Round 1 BBEG: Do half an action (if that).
Round 2 Players: Full Atta... wait he's dead?

I mean they are four characters, so four actions a round so unless your BBEG is 4x more powerful than them, he's toast with no trouble what so ever. A dragon can hold on his own, a mindflayer will need dominated minions.

(whited out to protect module name)
At the end of one "campaign" adventure, the Dark Sun module The Dragon's Crown, there was a group of adventurers the players had met before dominated by the BBEG. As such, they knew which class were each and had a more emotional attachment to their adversaries (i.e. I want to kill the leader! Please save the cute elf who we think is on our side! Oh my god, we have to fight HER the uber half-giant fighter gladiator of doom with the million HPs?). On top of that, the BBEG made for a absolutly astounding climactic fight.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-10, 11:27 AM
The fruit elemental s so badass :smallbiggrin: .

By the way, did you painted your miniatures yourself?

I did, and converted them as well (putting in the right weapons, etc.). They're my gift to the players. When the game's over I'll touch them up (they're a little scuffed from use) and give them to my players to keep.

If I can get a mind flayer figure too, whoever does the killing blow will probably get him.

I'm thinking doppelgangers in the form of loved ones might suit for minions.

kme
2007-09-10, 02:50 PM
Well I played warhammer and I learned to paint miniatures solidly (and did some conversions).So I know what it takes to paint them :smallbiggrin: .
And I just wanted to give you a compliment for painting them pretty good.But now that I heard that you convert and give your players miniatures based on their characters I am amazed.
I hope your players appreciate your dedication.

Starsinger
2007-09-10, 06:39 PM
The_Snark mentioned the half-dragon template being a result of experimentation, which is exactly what he would be if I decided to go that route.... he's a bit of an outcast, not been with his own society for awhile, and him being an aberration among aberrations suited my idea for him.

Thanks again for the posts -- and please post any other ideas you have! I appreciate your efforts.

If you still want him to go half dragon, perhaps levels in dragon-disciple? This'll bring him in CR, make him more melee capable, and is a non-breeding way of becoming half dragon.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-11, 06:34 AM
Thanks very much, kme. :smallsmile:

Starsinger: I mainly want a boost to HD, natural armor, and stats. There are a few ways to do it; that one was just one of the most efficient. It's a homebrew world, so I've got a lot of room to explain the origins of something unusual.

Cadius
2007-09-11, 07:58 AM
Mind Flayers are, by nature, control freaks. They want to work through enslaved minions. They want to be the shadowy figure behind the throne, rather than the target--er figurehead ON that throne.

I would suggest you give the Mind Flayer a few levels of Sorcerer. This grants you some nice spells and maintains the innate casting ability that the built-in "psionics" gives you. You aren't trying to make the MF strong enough to take out the party single-handedly, though. Just enough to give him and edge and to defeat any players who've memorized the MM entry.

On top of that, bring him in with enslaved minions. A few strong-arms as body guards would be good--the suggested ogres (with levels in fighter or barbarian) along with something capable of ranged attacks perhaps. These guys are there to absorb melee strikes to keep the MF alive. Remember, EVERYONE is canonfodder to a MF.

Forte's idea of having some children or other "innocents" there is a GREAT one. A MF has no moral qualms with doing so. If it knows there's a paladin in the group, it would jump at the opportunity to divert that paladin's attention with a group of innocents in the combat area. Give those innocent thralls some pitchforks or something and let them have at the PCs. The challenge of removing this threat without killing the kids will move this battle from a cool fight scene to a memorable encounter. Throughout the years, the D&D game sessions that really stand out aren't the hardest-fought, but the ones that challenged me as a player or gm. The moral battle this would cause will make it memorable. ...Assuming your players are mature enough to deal with it. But the MF knows the pc's are good, so it's not out of character for it to think up something this diabolical.

If the players face off against the MF alone, you either have to MacGuffin it up so that it can survive more than 2 rounds of concentrated fire, or it's going to be a very anti-climactic battle. He needs to go in with backup or he's a goner.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-11, 08:47 AM
Masterminds don't put themselves in harm's way. It seems as though the mind flayer is in the untennable situation of having to guard an immovable object. So, you've got to ask yourself, is this macguffin so important that the mind flayer would throw away his life to protect it? About the only thing I could picture falling into that category his their hive mind pool thingy. Or perhaps access to said location. Perhaps a portal to, or anchor stone to the 'Illithidland'. It is important to keep the gateway usable for the mindflayers to get their cattle. However, they couldn't risk letting it fall into enemy hands. If that is the case, then if the battle turns south, the mindflayer would destroy the macguffin (preferably escaping in the process).

Another option is that the room is weapon against the Githiyanki. A prime shadow of an astral dead god that the Githiyanki harvest in the astral plane. The nature of the dead god draws life slowly from the room, but instead of feeding the dead god, the macguffin channels this energy into the room itself, slowly charging up. Eventually, the macguffin would have been used to release the planar lock and catapult the godshadow weapon right at the Githiyanki Lich Queen in an attempt to destroy her. The mind flayer's transport device will keep him on the prime as the room and all its contents get flung into the Astral Plane.

The result of this is, just as the group is about to defeat the mindflayer (ending the campaign), he activates the macguffin, flinging the group into the Astral plane towards the dead god city of the Githiyanki Lich Queen. Cue the Gith pirates appearing in the distance, plus the dragon riders and the rapidly approaching Gith city. Meanwhile the 'room' the party is in starts to pulse faster and faster... fade to black and roll credits. Ending the campaign as a cliffhanger.

Thrawn183
2007-09-11, 09:24 AM
On the topic of minions: I'd avoid anything immune to sneak attack. It would really suck to not be able to do anything in the final encounter of a 2 year campaign!

I like the idea of ogre barbarians: meat shields should be able to take a pounding (go barb's), just make sure that the rogue type has enough levels on them to still be able to sneak attack. The meat shields should have enough hp to take a pounding but should not be a rediculous challenge in and of themselves.

I also think you need to make a decision about whether or not you want the mindflayer to grapple or not? Getting your brain sucked out of your skull is probably a pretty cool way to go down. Barbarian levels would be helpful in this regard, maybe some fighter levels for improved grapple (would also help with the hp issue).

If you decide to make the mind flayer fly, make sure there is at least a sub-par way of getting to him/knocking him out of the air if the party can't fly on their own. Otherwise he'll just sit there and blast them into nothingness.

DeathQuaker
2007-09-11, 12:36 PM
Mind Flayers are, by nature, control freaks. They want to work through enslaved minions. They want to be the shadowy figure behind the throne, rather than the target--er figurehead ON that throne.

*nods* Enough people have pushed the idea of minions that it makes more than enough sense for him to have some there with him.



Forte's idea of having some children or other "innocents" there is a GREAT one. A MF has no moral qualms with doing so.

The encounter is going to take place in a nearly impossible to access buried ritual chamber. The mind flayer can get there combining his inate planeshift ability with an artifact. I can see him possibly extending this ability to a handful of minions, but using it to drag some children there as meatshields is a little off. By the limitations I've set up for the scenario (and yes, they're my limitations, but they're there for a reason. And I promise, you don't want to hear the massive backplot and campaign summary... it's a little too long to go through at the moment), if he's going to bring minions, they're going to be something that will provide more use to him than very fragile meatshields. Especially since the place he is going to is potentially dangerous to him almost as much as it is to the party.

So his minions will likely be either local inhabitants of nearby tunnels that he's dominated (e.g., grimlocks) or his own minions brought in from elsewhere that are strong enough to protect him.

Pulling on the PC's heartstrings while doing something that makes sense within the story would most likely involve illusions of loved ones -- or as someone suggested, using doppelgangers who have taken the shape of their loved ones and/or allies. His organization would have been able to gather enough intelligence to know who these people are.

The only conundrum I have there is that the cleric is capable of casting True Seeing. And while I don't necessarily want to deny her that ability... I don't want the discovery of the ruse to be immedate (if for some reason she already has the spell cast).


Masterminds don't put themselves in harm's way. It seems as though the mind flayer is in the untennable situation of having to guard an immovable object. So, you've got to ask yourself, is this macguffin so important that the mind flayer would throw away his life to protect it?

The MacGuffin is an item that will allow the mind flayer to become the mind behind the throne of an enormously magically-powerful neighboring nation. In order to accomplish this, he needs to touch the item himself -- hence, no one else can do it for him.

He won't die to access it, but he will risk up to near-death to accomplish this goal (and the fact that he might plane shift away if he's near death gives me more reasons to make sure he's got minions with him, so the party can at least have their treasure).

The motivations for the character are tied into the makeup of the world itself, which is homebrew, so just trust me: the answer is yes, the macguffin is very important (and moreover, the motivations would make sense to the players, and would not think I was pulling something out of my rear end).



Ending the campaign as a cliffhanger.

I doubt I will run another D&D campaign in that setting with the exact same group again, so I'd rather give them closure. I know as a player, that's what I would prefer. But thanks for the suggestions. :smallsmile: