Optimal Party Composition - no full spellcasters or Summoners

[nmitchell890]

As the title says, what would your optimal 4 or 5 person party consist of if you can't have any full spellcasters as part of your party? You may dip into a full spellcaster class on the condition that you don't go above 6th level spells, meaning you're no more powerful a spellcaster than a 6/9 spellcaster like the Magus or Inquisitor. Summoner gets access to higher level spells in lower level slots which kinda undermines the point of the thought experiment and rather than open that can of worms I'm just going to straight up ban it. With that out of the way, have at it!

My own optimal party would consist of the following four characters;
Paladin (Hospitaler) 16/Oracle (Divine Herbalist) 4
Fighter (Lore Warden) 2/Magus (Hexcrafter) 18 built to deliver Rimed Frostbite charges as AoOs using a Whip
Monk (Zen Archer) 2/Inquisitor (Infiltrator, Preacher) 18
Gunslinger (Mechanist) 1/Fighter (Trench Fighter) 3/Magus (Eldritch Archer) 16

[DMVerdandi]

Without using any third party stuff?

1.Skald
2.Vigilante(Warlock)
3.Bloodrager
4.Magus
5.Investigator


With using 3rd party(DSP mainly)

1. Zealot
2. Fighter (Myrmidon/Martial Master)
3. Investigator (Polymath)
4.Warpriest (warpath follower)
5.Mesmerist

[Quertus]

Eh, this seems like a good time for the all-monster party!

Maybe a half-orge Crusader riding a Hydra for BFC and spot-healing, a half-dragon troll for LoL what, a dark petal rogue/thug for scouting and sneak attack DPS, a Mystic Theurge with a custom "0/10" casting advancement prestige class for something I'd maybe enjoy playing (maybe Mystic Theurge / War Shaper or something like that?), another Rogue / thug (but this one PaO'd into a 12-headed hydra for crazy DPS), and, um, maybe an awakened dire lion out something completely crazy like a paragon merilith with crippling level adjustment.

Oh, and a bard, to be our face, and tell our tales.

Did I mention that I like big parties? :smallamused:

[zlefin]

optimal at what level?
I mean, the fullcasters don't appear to have any issues there until the level is high enough that they can't get their 7ths; before then they seem entirely unnerfed and would still be awesome.

and what sources are allowed? core? paizo only?

and optimal at high op games, or just for general low op play?

[Kurald Galain]

My own optimal party would consist of the following four characters;
I love that two of the four are primarily a Magus :smallbiggrin:

[Eldonauran]

Multiclassed Druid/Ranger (Shapeshifting Hunter) - Melee/Force Multiplier
Bloodrager w/ VMC Paladin - Melee/Tank
Skald - Switch hitter/Force Multiplier
Warpriest - Ranged/Divine Support
Unchained Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel) - Control/Debuffing/Arcane Support

That would be my ideal party, if we cut out spells above 6th level. Well, a rough idea anyway.

[noob]

You can do a wizard cleric druid party without worrying: even if spells caps out you will still get extra class features.

[nmitchell890]

optimal at what level?
I mean, the fullcasters don't appear to have any issues there until the level is high enough that they can't get their 7ths; before then they seem entirely unnerfed and would still be awesome.

and what sources are allowed? core? paizo only?

and optimal at high op games, or just for general low op play?

If you were playing a Paizo-only campaign 1-20 and knew that all three pillars of the game had to be covered (combat, exploration, social), what would your absolutely optimal party consist of?


I love that two of the four are primarily a Magus :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, the Magus is my favourite class both thematically and mechanically, closely followed by Bloodrager. I actually made a Bloodrager/Magus for PFS and it absolutely kicks ass. Blood Conduit gets Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 1st, Crossblooded with the Aberrant and Abyssal bloodlines gets Enlarge Person and Long Arm while in a Bloodrage at 4th and 8th. Eldritch Scion stacks for Bloodline progression and adds Spellstrike to the mix, I normally default to Rimed Frostbite for the debuffs but I have used Chill Touch against undead in a corridor before too. Such fun :)

[noob]

If you were playing a Paizo-only campaign 1-20 and knew that all three pillars of the game had to be covered (combat, exploration, social), what would your absolutely optimal party consist of?



Yeah, the Magus is my favourite class both thematically and mechanically, closely followed by Bloodrager. I actually made a Bloodrager/Magus for PFS and it absolutely kicks ass. Blood Conduit gets Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 1st, Crossblooded with the Aberrant and Abyssal bloodlines gets Enlarge Person and Long Arm while in a Bloodrage at 4th and 8th. Eldritch Scion stacks for Bloodline progression and adds Spellstrike to the mix, I normally default to Rimed Frostbite for the debuffs but I have used Chill Touch against undead in a corridor before too. Such fun :)

Team cleric without any doubt or hesitation.
It would be better than any non spellcaster team until reaching level 6 spells and even then it will stay better than other teams until they catch the fast spellcasting progression of team cleric.
Team cleric also have all the needed skills and can fight in multiple ways and can at any moment prepare tons of divinations and any other awesome spell like that for the situation.

[Acanous]

1: Gnome Ninja 3/Bard 10/More Ninja. We’re talking 20 CHA, Snap Shot Bewildering Koan into Weird Words on turn 1, with a bunch of sneak attack dice. Most encounters can’t survive that, and the ones who can? Fogcutting lenses, smoke bomb, more weird words.
2: Druid 8Barbarian 12. Focuses on wild shaping into a dire hippo, then using magic fang, Strong Jaw, and furious finish to deliver astronomical amounts of damage. There’s an entire build dedicated to this, and it does so incredibly much damage. Oh, and you grab some overrun and trip feats too, and make use of Come and Get Me. Grab Cleave when you can.
3: Paladin, mounted combat/spirited charge build. Dual wield lances, ride the Druid. There’s a way to get pounce but I forget it. You’re the healer for most status conditions with lay on hands, and your ability to just wreck people with your double lance means if something doesn’t get run over by the Druid, you end it. Also, you can turn undead which is nice.
4: Bard 20. The gnome is never going to inspire courage or use its bardic class features for anything other than doing 10d8+100(will for half) plus 50d6 sneak attack plus 10d6 sonic as ranged touch attacks against flat footed enemies, the Paladin is going to be busy smiting things a lot of the time. And the Druid only ever casts before it turns into a gargantuan hippo and monster trucks all over an army for I **** you not ~12440 damage per attack. You can be the spellcaster and the face, and inspire courage. Go go acoustic accompaniment.
I mean, if you want a 5th ranger, they can be anything. It probably won’t matter, the DM can’t stat out bad things remotely close to your level that would be a challenge. Really the only trouble you’re going to have is with lv 9 spellcasters.

[Florian]

Paladin, Warpriest, Magus, Spiritualist.

[CharonsHelper]

1. Bard (Arcane Duellist)

2. Bard (Court Bard)

3. Bard (Archivist)

4. Bard (Magician)

I call them - N'Spell. Let the buffing commence!

(Yes - all of their songs stack.)

[noob]

Each time I see stuff about bards in any edition other than 5e I think "why are bards not fullcasting"
Will bards have fullcasting in pathfinder 2e?

[Kurald Galain]

Each time I see stuff about bards in any edition other than 5e I think "why are bards not fullcasting"

Why on earth would a tavern minstrel be as good a caster as an archmage?

[noob]

Why on earth would a tavern minstrel be as good a caster as an archmage?

Because songs are power.
For example in lord of the rings the greatest magics are done with music.

[CharonsHelper]

Because songs are power.
For example in lord of the rings the greatest magics are done with music.

D&D =/ LoTR

Nothing in LoTR would approach anything like a D&D full caster. The wizards in LoTR would be much better represented as outsiders in D&D mechanical terms.

I don't really think that any D&D spell-casters have good counterparts in LoTR. (MAYBE ranger style nature spells - but even low level druids would be far more blatantly powerful.)

Myself - I like bards as a jack of all trades class. It doesn't fit as well into 5e - so they gave them full casting with a limited (and probably somewhat sub-par) list. It works okay, but I'm a big fan of how the Pathfinder bard plays. Especially for something like PFS where they can fill any potential gaps in the party decently.

[Kurald Galain]

For example in lord of the rings the greatest magics are done with music.

Lord of the Rings doesn't even have anything resembling D&D bards, what are you even talking about?

[Elricaltovilla]

If I have to stick to 1st party Pathfinder, I'd go with the following:

1. Magus
2. Alchemist
3. Bard
4. Inquisitor

But really, any combination of 6th level casters are going to do well. They are about the only thing that Paizo gets consistently correct.

Were I allowed 3rd party materials instead, I would use:

1. Ordained Defender Zweihander Sentinel Bushi Warder
2. Medic
3. Pathwalker PsyWar/Awakened Blade
4. Brutal Slayer Stalker/Mage Slayer

Mostly for fun. Medic is included entirely because I'm biased and not ashamed to admit it.

[CharonsHelper]

But really, any combination of 6th level casters are going to do well. They are about the only thing that Paizo gets consistently correct.


Going just for 6th level casting power, a Dragon Disciple build could really rock out.

Paladin 2 / Crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Abyssal) 6 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist) 2

Jack up that STR & CHA - STR for melee (Abyssal Bloodline & Dragon Disciple stack to boost it) and get CHA for spell-casting, AC, smiting, and all saves.

[exelsisxax]

Lord of the Rings doesn't even have anything resembling D&D bards, what are you even talking about?

He is conflating the origin story of that world (sung into being by a choir of gods under an omnipotent overgod) with what magic in that world is. There are, in fact, no bards or bard-like spellcasters anywhere in LotR.

I'm surprised that people said warpath followers, rather than BATTLE TEMPLAR warpath followers, for endless free action group healing.

[Pleh]

Why on earth would a tavern minstrel be as good a caster as an archmage?

Why wouldn't an archmage BE a traveling minstrel?

[stack]

He is conflating the origin story of that world (sung into being by a choir of gods under an omnipotent overgod) with what magic in that world is. There are, in fact, no bards or bard-like spellcasters anywhere in LotR.

I'm surprised that people said warpath followers, rather than BATTLE TEMPLAR warpath followers, for endless free action group healing.

Luthien in the Silmarillion does work magic by singing, though that may be template based (elf father, maiar mother).

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm surprised that people said warpath followers, rather than BATTLE TEMPLAR warpath followers, for endless free action group healing.

Eh. Battle Templar is fun but a lot less necessary given the existence of the medic, Silver crane and now Radiant Dawn. Healing is pretty much covered nowadays with DSP.

[Pex]

Paladin
Inquisitor
War Priest
Rogue

[Elricaltovilla]

Paladin
Inquisitor
War Priest
Rogue

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong...

[CharonsHelper]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong...

The rogue could keep up if they're an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel.

[Florian]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong...

*Shrugs*

As usual, non-caster classes don't need to worry about running out of steam and set a very concrete baseline of destructive power when it coms to combat encounters.

[CharonsHelper]

*Shrugs*

As usual, non-caster classes don't need to worry about running out of steam and set a very concrete baseline of destructive power when it coms to combat encounters.

I like martials - but by level 20 in 3.x/PF they have definitely fallen by the wayside. (One reason I think I've only played 3.5 into the teens once and never with PF.)

[Kurald Galain]

Why wouldn't an archmage BE a traveling minstrel?

I suppose you could ask Gandalf, Merlin, Milamber, Dworkin, or Ged about that.

[Efrate]

Harbringer, cleric, druid, wizard. Steal/share all the buffs from all the classes being a weird volton of doom to your foes. Plus get to ignore all immunities period at high levels. I'm sure 3 casters have some tricks they can kinda do that you can be sure will always work. Willing to take a few punches for.

[Elricaltovilla]

The rogue could keep up if they're an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel.


*Shrugs*

As usual, non-caster classes don't need to worry about running out of steam and set a very concrete baseline of destructive power when it coms to combat encounters.

I was very obviously talking about the Paladin, since he has far more restrictive alignment requirements than the other three classes.

I'm only half joking. Really you could argue any one of the four is the odd man out. But that's what makes the game fun.

[Psyren]

Summoner gets access to higher level spells in lower level slots which kinda undermines the point of the thought experiment and rather than open that can of worms I'm just going to straight up ban it.

Have you looked at Unchained Summoner? The spell list and eidolon were tweaked (read: nerfed) so that this isn't a problem anymore, and they can fit in with other 6/9 casters better.

Anyway, assuming 1st-party I'd probably go for some combination of the following: Bloodrager/Warpriest/Unchained Monk/Magus as the tank, Alchemist/Occultist/Magus/Bard as arcane caster, Inquisitor/Hunter/Spiritualist/Warpriest as divine caster, Ranger/Unchained Rogue/Ninja/Hunter as the scout, and Medium/Bard/Skald/Investigator as the wild card "5th-Man."

[Elkad]

Rules question. Can I just stay in the full-casting class and not learn any spells beyond 6th (using the slots for metamagic instead?)

[noob]

Rules question. Can I just stay in the full-casting class and not learn any spells beyond 6th (using the slots for metamagic instead?)

Or even if you do not get the slots beyond level 6 you would still have new and exiting high level class features(and extra spells known of level 6 or lower if you are a wizard).

[Pex]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong...

:smallbiggrin:

Someone needs to do the scouting, stealthing, and willingness to do the necessary things a morally upright person would hedge against.

[Elricaltovilla]

:smallbiggrin:

Someone needs to do the scouting, stealthing, and willingness to do the necessary things a morally upright person would hedge against.

That's what Inquisitors are for. And also:


I was very obviously talking about the Paladin, since he has far more restrictive alignment requirements than the other three classes.

I'm only half joking. Really you could argue any one of the four is the odd man out. But that's what makes the game fun.

[Psyren]

Rules question. Can I just stay in the full-casting class and not learn any spells beyond 6th (using the slots for metamagic instead?)

Not learning any would be difficult on some casters (e.g. clerics just know their entire list.) But nothing is forcing you to prepare or cast from those slots except for metamagic and the like.

Keep in mind that even with that self-limitation you would likely be much stronger than a 6th-level caster. It's not just where you top out at, it's when you gain access. A 6th-level character generally doesn't get their 6th-level spells until 18 for example, but you would be getting yours as early as 12 or even 11.

[Elkad]

Keep in mind that even with that self-limitation you would likely be much stronger than a 6th-level caster. It's not just where you top out at, it's when you gain access. A 6th-level character generally doesn't get their 6th-level spells until 18 for example, but you would be getting yours as early as 12 or even 11.

That's my plan. Be a t1 wizard (with possible PRCs) to 12 as a "dip". Then either stay in for slots to meta, or find a filler class for the last third of the campaign.

If retraining is on, at 15th retrain to a theurge and end up with 6th wizard spells and 5th in something else.

[nmitchell890]

Rules question. Can I just stay in the full-casting class and not learn any spells beyond 6th (using the slots for metamagic instead?)

The original idea was that you didn't stay in the class. As someone already mentioned, it's not just the access to higher level spells that makes full spellcasters so powerful, it's the early access to the lower level spells compared to a 6/9 spellcaster. It's certainly an interesting idea, but I think it demands its own thought experiment or even playtest. Heck, I would take part in a playtest of those rules.

[nmitchell890]

That's my plan. Be a t1 wizard (with possible PRCs) to 12 as a "dip". Then either stay in for slots to meta, or find a filler class for the last third of the campaign.

If retraining is on, at 15th retrain to a theurge and end up with 6th wizard spells and 5th in something else.

I just saw this and realised that Mystic Theurge would be so strong, even the Sorcerer/Oracle entry could fit 6th level spells in both and a Paladin dip for Divine Grace by 20th. I mean, progression wouldn't be great but compared to mostly 6/9 or lower spellcasters it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as a normal game.

[grarrrg]

Can I just stay in the full-casting class and not learn any spells beyond 6th (using the slots for metamagic instead?)Or even if you do not get the slots beyond level 6 you would still have new and exiting high level class features

Yes, new and exciting high level class features!
Like our friend the Cleric for example!!
At 13th level, you get +1d6 Channeling!!!
At 15th level, you get +1d6 Channeling!!!!
At 17th level...

[noob]

Yes, new and exciting high level class features!
Like our friend the Cleric for example!!
At 13th level, you get +1d6 Channeling!!!
At 15th level, you get +1d6 Channeling!!!!
At 17th level...
You forgot domains which scale with cleric level(and the extra uses of domain powers).

[Calthropstu]

Oracle 4, sorcerer 4, thurge 8, paladin 2, dragon disciple 1, and some prestige class that gives all kinds of bonuses.

Times 6.

Each equipped with a rod of maximize.

Eat my x6 maximized disintegrate.

[Peat]

If full casters not using any of their slots above 6th are an option, then Wiz12/AA8 with the trait for +2 CL retains full CL, and the AA levels probably offer more than 8 levels of Wizard not advancing spellcasting - particularly Imbue Arrow.

[grarrrg]

You forgot domains which scale with cleric level(and the extra uses of domain powers).

This was an 'exact words' joke. Key words being "new and exiting high level class features".
Scaling sure, but nothing new, likely not all that exciting, and only technically high level.

Just about any PrC that advances anything Cleric-ish will be LOADS better than just more Cleric.

[Calthropstu]

This was an 'exact words' joke. Key words being "new and exiting high level class features".
Scaling sure, but nothing new, likely not all that exciting, and only technically high level.

Just about any PrC that advances anything Cleric-ish will be LOADS better than just more Cleric.

Actually, since magus was mentioned this is probably pathfinder. Wizards et all actually get plenty of new class features that are quite powerful and/or useful as they get higher level.

[Peat]

Actually, since magus was mentioned this is probably pathfinder. Wizards et all actually get plenty of new class features that are quite powerful and/or useful as they get higher level.

2 bonus feats, 8 levels of advancing their familiar, and maybe some slight bonuses to School Powers going off Wizard level. Clerics get 4d6 extra's worth of healing and some of their domain powers grow a little more pokey. Not a huge lot going other than more spells. Different for Sorcerers and Oracles, but even not hugely so.

[grarrrg]

Actually, since magus was mentioned this is probably pathfinder. Wizards et all actually get plenty of new class features that are quite powerful and/or useful as they get higher level.

I'm quite well aware this is Pathfinder. My share of this discussion has been centered around quibbling about "new class features" emphasis on "NEW".
You'll notice all my posts so far have been making fun of Clerics, and only Clerics, as they have the least "new" stuff going on. Once they hit level 8, all they (usually) have left is scaling, no longer getting anything honestly new.

Arcanists, Oracles and Shamans have actual capstones.
Druids get their last new thing at level 15.
Witches get a capstone at 18.

Wizards also get their last 'new' thing around level 8 or so (2nd school ability), pretty much all scaling after that.
BUT thanks to Arcane Discoveries with a requirement of Wizard 20 they arguably have a capstone as well.

[Calthropstu]

I'm quite well aware this is Pathfinder. My share of this discussion has been centered around quibbling about "new class features" emphasis on "NEW".
You'll notice all my posts so far have been making fun of Clerics, and only Clerics, as they have the least "new" stuff going on. Once they hit level 8, all they (usually) have left is scaling, no longer getting anything honestly new.

Arcanists, Oracles and Shamans have actual capstones.
Druids get their last new thing at level 15.
Witches get a capstone at 18.

Wizards also get their last 'new' thing around level 8 or so (2nd school ability), pretty much all scaling after that.
BUT thanks to Arcane Discoveries with a requirement of Wizard 20 they arguably have a capstone as well.

Actually, wizards get nifty stuff as capstone. The one where their summons last forever is pretty neat, and there is different ones to choose from what with archetypes and other wizard options.

[Kurald Galain]

2 bonus feats, 8 levels of advancing their familiar, and maybe some slight bonuses to School Powers going off Wizard level.

Plus arcane discoveries.

[Psyren]

I understand grarrrg's point - without the spellcasting, Clerics don't get anything particularly cool after 8th level. Domains and channeling continue to scale, but the latter is just numbers while the former are rarely even that meaningful. The comparison to a wizard's Arcane Discoveries, which can give you actually cool milestones and capstones, are apt.

[Peat]

Plus arcane discoveries.

True - I overlooked them because they're an option rather than something you just get.

That said there's only 2 Arcane Discoveries you can't take after 12 and 2 that grant extra benefits if you go all the way (I think). I don't know whether you have to be taking Wizard levels to select them with a feat, or merely have Wizard levels (googled it and found conflicting answers) - either way, there's plenty of opportunities to take most of the discoveries you want before 12th and not many of them are cool high level capstone stuff.

Think the real bonus I forgot to mention is favoured class bonus, which is pretty strong for some races.

[Psyren]

Teither way, there's plenty of opportunities to take most of the discoveries you want before 12th and not many of them are cool high level capstone stuff.

I mean, do there need to be a bunch of them? Most classes get just one capstone. Wizards and a handful of other classes (e.g. Alchemists and Witches) get a few to choose from. Again, not a lot, but plural beats singular.



Think the real bonus I forgot to mention is favoured class bonus, which is pretty strong for some races.

That's fair but for clerics specifically I think the offerings are pretty slim.

[Nigeretalbus]

Optimal Party without 9th-lvl casters:


1) Inquisitor - Sanctified Slayer Archetype
Blood Reader (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo-slayer-talents/blood-reader/) is a very useful tool for any party in various situations.
Inquisitors are versatile and powerful.


2) Skald - Spell Warrior Archetype
Skalds are Force multipliers par excellence; Spell Warriors have the added advantage of removing the usual Rage restrictions from their allies.
(Strength Surge - Savage Dirty Trick - Unexpected Strike - Come and Get Me - Internal Fortitude - Fearless Rage
as example for useful Rage powers; Flexible Fury (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flexible%20Fury) exists and should be used as necessary)


3) Spiritualist - Kindness Phantom
Spiritualists offer spells and excellent scouting potential via phantoms; the Kindness Phantom acts as Aide(providing bonuses via Aid Another) and force multiplier thanks to Opening Strike.


4) Alchemist
Alchemists are incredibly versatile with Extracts, Mutagens, Bombs and Discoveries; furthermore, they are - alongside the Magus - one of Pathfinders "Iconic" Classes that distinguish PF from DnD.




Runner-ups:

- Magus: Very versatile and powerful class.

- Hunter: Excellent Teamwork feat options.

- Mesmerist: Excellent Control via Stares and Tricks. Stare Feats in particular (Blinding/Confusing/Manifold Stare) are very powerful.

[Calthropstu]

I feel paladins are underrepresented here. In pf, smite is a really big deal, and gives amazing bonuses. Add chariama save bonuses and pf paladins have real staying power as well as impressive damage potential.

[CharonsHelper]

I feel paladins are underrepresented here. In pf, smite is a really big deal, and gives amazing bonuses. Add chariama save bonuses and pf paladins have real staying power as well as impressive damage potential.

Well - I did include a 2 level dip in my Dragon Disciple build.

But - it seems like people are building for 20, and by 20 all martials, even Paladins, have sort of fallen by the wayside.

[Calthropstu]

Well - I did include a 2 level dip in my Dragon Disciple build.

But - it seems like people are building for 20, and by 20 all martials, even Paladins, have sort of fallen by the wayside.

If any martial can keep up, It's definitely a paladin.

[Rynjin]

Investigator (Empiricist) as Rogue++ with light party utility and secondary damage capacity.

Inquisitor for your divine casting needs and raw sustainable damage output (Sanctified Slayer preferred but not required, sacred huntmaster is a good alternative as well). Domain Inquisition makes you a Wis based face, and a focus on Monster Knowledges aside leaves skill points free for the Investigator to invest in a few other things.

Milanite Warpriest, Healing and Liberation blessings plus gimped Cleric spell list for much needed condition removal (the only major issue non-full caster parties have).

Last slot is negotiable. Paladin is good for sustained damage, intense use of Paladin's Sacrifice (easier to not waste condition removal if all the ones that need removing are on the same guy, and he can provide his own in many cases), and minor healing ability. Magus for much needed arcane utility. Bard makes everybody better, or Spell Warrior Skald (Raging Song is hot garbage in most parties; loss of Spell Kenning hurts bad though).

I'd lean towards Paladin with an eye to the Ultimate Mercy Feat because that's the only Raise Dead easily available to this party.

[CharonsHelper]

If any martial can keep up, It's definitely a paladin.

That and the crazy barbarian builds which can sunder spells.

[Peat]

I mean, do there need to be a bunch of them? Most classes get just one capstone. Wizards and a handful of other classes (e.g. Alchemists and Witches) get a few to choose from. Again, not a lot, but plural beats singular.

Well Wizards are sorely underpowered, so... :smalltongue:

Okay. Let me rephrase that as I'm not sure if any of the ones you'd have to go beyond 12 to get are capstone type worthy. They certainly aren't for every Wizard build (obviously).

As such, I'm unsure as whether they're meaningful new class features late on for every wizard.



That's fair but for clerics specifically I think the offerings are pretty slim.

Heh. Not exactly surprised I guess.

[Florian]

That and the crazy barbarian builds which can sunder spells.

Fetchling Barbarian (Mounted Fury and Superstitious) is really fun to play, even to high levels, did that in Wrath of the Righteous. Fighter (Viking) has access to full rage powers and all the goodies of Weapon Master´s Handbook, while Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/Barbarian (Dreadnaught) 6/Sanguine Angel 2+ boarders on the insane, but must skip CAGM.

[DrMartin]

weird words math of madness

This assumes you don't use the faq/errata on weird words...post errata they are not nearly as exciting: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9t4f

[Acanous]

This assumes you don't use the faq/errata on weird words...post errata they are not nearly as exciting: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9t4f

They made it cost more, count as only one attack if used on one target, and cut the total number of attacks in half?

Still does pretty well, but not roflcopter levels of damage.
Bewildering Koan into weird words still ends up stomping most things, but the bard is no longer the end all of damage. Needs the Druid for that