RP advice for Samurai

[retaliation08]

I am familiarizing myself with the 8 tenets of Bushido for a character I will be playing, but the concept of Honor, particularly in combat, is giving me trouble in the magical dnd universe.

How do you think Samurai would feel about magic (arcane and divine)? Would it be viewed similarly to firearms in feudal Japan?

Would a Samurai who fell in combat feel that receiving cure spells as shameful? What about during a battle? Duel?

I'm also open to hearing other musings on Samurai fantasy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The quickest and easiest solution to your questions is simply to adapt the positions of the Rokugani people from OA. Theirs is a pseudo-japanese fantasy setup prepackaged for exactly this.

In short; arcane = bad, divine = good, and magic being used in battle is more-or-less expected as long as it's not too underhanded.

[mabriss lethe]

Even though it's for a different system entirely. Check out as much of any version of Legend of the Five Rings as you can get your hands on. They do a rather good job of integrating bushido into a fantasy worldview. (The answer is something like this: It's REALLY complicated, but there are some general guidelines)

edit to add: Quasi-ninja'd

[Mordaedil]

Magic in Japanese is closely associated with demons (uses the same kanji even) but it's worth keeping in mind that their traditions regarding the supernatural is very different from us in the west too. Youkai, or spirits often interfere with daily lives in neglible ways (giving old people bad backs, making buckets heavy when you put water in them, playing tricks on people) or beneficial ways (uniting parents with their children, guiding people through the mountains) or detrimental malicious ways (taking children away from their cribs, luring old men into perving on other women, tricking samurai into killing their allies on the battlefield, waking up beasts that kill lost travelers) and so on. Magic, particularly arcane would perhaps be viewed with a suspicious eye as it would manipulate the natural order of how these spirits behave, and they definately wouldn't appreciate being tainted with demonic influence, but they could allow them passing if they are using their powers for good.

They would probably insist magic users not interfere with melee combat, it staining the purity of that field. Though, some samurai might not mind as much.

[CharonsHelper]

As Mordaedil explained - demons/magic traditions in Japan probably have more in common with what in the west would be the fae rather than wizards/druids. A mix of good and bad with lots of trickery thrown in.

But really though - you aren't playing a Samurai in Japan. You're playing one in D&D. You should feel free to play what you want and just be inspired by the history. After all - how many people research Charlemagne when they're going to play a Paladin?

[DMVerdandi]

I am familiarizing myself with the 8 tenets of Bushido for a character I will be playing, but the concept of Honor, particularly in combat, is giving me trouble in the magical dnd universe.
As from what I have seen, it is the same concept of honor, that the Army uses today, and that is "Honor is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking".

Does that mean being comically ineffective in combat? Absolutely not. It means you conduct yourself to a standard, and follow through with the mission no matter what, BUT, it also means doing only what is required of completing the mission, nothing more, and nothing less, and that's what makes you a man of discipline, and a hard man. Not pillaging for your own personal gain, or murdering others out of cowardice, but being clean and efficient in your behavior and actions, with respect to completion of the mission first

That's honor.



How do you think Samurai would feel about magic (arcane and divine)? Would it be viewed similarly to firearms in feudal Japan?
Yes, It's a tool, and any tool can be used virtuously or cravenly.


Would a Samurai who fell in combat feel that receiving cure spells as shameful? What about during a battle? Duel?
No. That is a stupid trope and only really came about in the post war, sword banned japanese culture.
Why would anyone think medicine [magical or not], would be shameful? It allows you to continue the fight. If they thought either was shameful, then why would they wear armor? Isn't it cowardly to run away from your death? Why would they use weapons? isn't it folly to depend on anything more than your own two hands to best a man?

See how silly that sounds. It ALWAYS sounds silly. Samurai were humans first, and humans want to live above all things. Now, they took DUTY very seriously, and that is completing the mission, but they weren't suicidal. They just would rather die than living shamefully. Clinging to life is not living shamefully, unless it requires you to sully your comrades. THAT's when they would commit those acts. Upon becoming a traitor, or seeking personal gain over the clan. It's a social thing, not just because you don't value your life.



I'm also open to hearing other musings on Samurai fantasy.
If you are planning on playing a samurai, while you don't have to go 100% true to life, gritty super dark, cares nothing about life, sort of narrative;

BUT, at the same time, you don't have to play them as that general 1980's version of a samurai. I think you need to create a normal personality first, and then add in the factors of a samurai's lifestyle, and work with how they would live in it.

One thing I think that is really cool with coming up with a character is using things like zodiac signs, and Meyers-briggs personalities. Make a natal chart for the character, and then pick a personality type and run with it.

For zodiac signs, you can roll 3d12, one for sun sign, moon sign, and Ascendant sign.
For chinese, you can roll 1d12 for Sign, and 1d5 for Element.

I will roll now.

5. Sun Leo: (Interestingly my sun sign). You are magnanimous, a lover of performance and want to spread love through connection with the tribe, Child-like, magnetic, and optimistic at your CORE.

10. Moon Capricorn: Your mind is focused on working hard to achieve your goals, You may react to stress with seriousness and callous, hard behavior. Concerned with creating security for yourself, and may hide true emotions behind logic.

8. Ascendant Scorpio (Also my ascendant sign,): You come off as dark, mysterious, and powerful. Internally you see yourself as those traits as well. May be manipulative, play for the dark side, and have a need to keep secrets. Analytical and has strong powers of insight, and may have psychic qualities.

[Scorpio AC, kills a LOT of leo qualities as far as generally being loud and attention seeking. It is Ice that cools fire]
Sun is What fuels you, Moon is how you process things, and Ascendant is your ego. As a leo you crave self-expression, with a moon capricorn you react and process in a practical/stoic way, and a scorpio rising's role is that of a mastermind]


For Chinese Zodiac, I got 8,4, (Water Sheep)
Kind, Gentle, Artistic, Likable by all, Creative, CHARMING, Dilligent, practical.



So, That would all turn into my guy being very manly in a soft way, like a mature person who has found what strength in grace is. Rather than being overly boastful, just being in the room changes the tide of things. He doesn't really have to waste his time convincing everyone about something, because he already knows what the right thing to do is, and all he has to have to say is "this is the way it should be done", and everyone believes him.
He is noble, but not because of birth alone, but because walks the path of nobility. Everything he does is honorable, if anything simply because he does it. He is like a bamboo reed. Hard, yet flexible. Growing endlessly, but stable.Nourishing yet tough.

Negatively, he can act FOR others, simply because it is right, or the best course of action, even if they wish otherwise. He is quietly, and subtly tyrannical at times, and needs only glare, to oppress those under his natural authority. But mostly he doesn't, because above all, he only wishes everyone to feel a pleasant experience.



That is easy ENTJ/ESTJ personality. More ESTJ with the duty thing [I am an ENTJ, Leo/Sagittarius/scorpio, Metal Horse]



So, just using those tools alone can give you a role to play at random.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the easiest ways to characterize Honor from the Bushido Code is to look at it as favoring Dignified behavior over Shameful behavior at all times. Any behavior that would degrade, humiliate or disgrace an individual was shameful and not tolerated among Samurai. Shame was an unacceptable burden and had to be expiated through some form of honorable atonement - even to the point of 'honorable suicide' in extreme cases. (In fact, the need to expiate any sort of shame caused a problem that the Meiji Emperor addressed during the modernization of the military with his famous "duty is heavier than a mountain; death is lighter than a feather" quote - attempting to reduce incidents where a shamed warrior commits 'honorable suicide' to expiate their shame, effectively abandoning their duty at the same time.)

What you need to consider then is whether an action would be something about which the samurai would be proud, or something that they would be embarrassed to admit. A couple of examples:

Employing magic to smash open the gate to the enemy's castle so the samurai can enter melee combat with the occupants would be honorable. Employing a sleep spell to overcome a bunch of peasant levies who were drafted unwillingly into service of the enemy, so that the samurai can face the enemy warlord in one-on-one combat may also be honorable. Using a Flame Strike against a bunch of weak enemies the samurai should have been able to defeat easily in melee combat would be shameful.
Receiving a cure serious wounds spell as a result of wounds received in honorable battle would normally be honorable. Receiving a cure serious wounds spell when it is the only healing magic available and there are wounded children who may die without that healing would be shameful. Receiving a cure serious wounds spell when it is the only healing magic available, even though there are others who need healing as well, but the samurai is their only defender and there are more enemies approaching, would not be shameful however.

[Andor13]

This is at least in part a world building question, so talk to your GM. Although it's perfectly fine to have your ducks in a row before the chat. :smallsmile:

Okay, magic and Samurai. First, the whole Arcane/Divine split is a very Western concept and doesn't line up much at all to Japanese beliefs, who would be much more likely to sort things by categories like Native/Foreign, Traditional/Novel, Honorable/Dishonorable. (Actually the Japanese language doesn't naturally incline towards dualistic thinking, the basic descriptors are the A, So, Ko prefixes splitting categories into "Thing(person, place, whatever) near me the speaker, thing near you the listener, and thing far from both of us.)

The cliche "There are no atheists in foxholes" applies just as much to the Samurai as it does any other warrior culture. They would seek divine aid and blessings as much any western knight doing his vigil before the altar. In D&D with a wider range of effective magic styles to draw from (Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Ofuda, etc) likewise more options become available. Similarly meditation was a widespread practice, and many martial practices incorporated Shinto (and other) rituals.

Some of magics will probably be socially acceptable, some will not. In part this will depends on which ones succeed more.

It's probably worth nothing that the Japanese concept of honor is different from the Western (especially modern) one. Where in the west we tend to be concerned with rightness of action, in Japan is all about appearance. Doing a 'dishonorable' thing isn't the problem, getting caught doing a dishonorable thing and thus bringing shame to yourself and your clan is the problem. Also note that while men were concerned with Honor, women were much more practical (in the Samurai caste the wife had charge of the household finances for this reason) and there would probably be a brisk underground trade in frowned upon magics being bought by women who then gave them to their husbands/lovers.

[Efrate]

Remember as a samurai your life belongs to your lord. You don't throw it away. You do not become reckless, and it is in your best interest to survive to continue doing your duty. Remember if it's not seen or known, it's not dishonorable. If you retreat and bring news of the advancing army, just say you were given an important message to relay. If no one knows you are good; or equally as true if no one admits they know. Even if you both know the truth.

[retaliation08]

Remember as a samurai your life belongs to your lord. You don't throw it away. You do not become reckless, and it is in your best interest to survive to continue doing your duty. Remember if it's not seen or known, it's not dishonorable. If you retreat and bring news of the advancing army, just say you were given an important message to relay. If no one knows you are good; or equally as true if no one admits they know. Even if you both know the truth.

I guess I should have specified that he is a Ronin. His family was dismissed by their lord when his father suffered a shameful defeat and was unable to seppuku because his wakizashi was sundered.

He is out to reclaim his family's honor, reforge his ancestral blade, and appease the spirits of his ancestors.

Thanks for all thr comments. Each one has given me something different to consider.

Part of the subtext of the question was regarding how to use starting wealth. I had considered a healing belt for example. But I think any wealth would be used to care for his widowed mother and reforge the blade before anything else.

[DMVerdandi]

I guess I should have specified that he is a Ronin. His family was dismissed by their lord when his father suffered a shameful defeat and was unable to seppuku because his wakizashi was sundered.

He is out to reclaim his family's honor, reforge his ancestral blade, and appease the spirits of his ancestors.

Thanks for all thr comments. Each one has given me something different to consider.

Part of the subtext of the question was regarding how to use starting wealth. I had considered a healing belt for example. But I think any wealth would be used to care for his widowed mother and reforge the blade before anything else.

Taking care of your mother should be a nominal cost for an adventurer. Cost of daily living isn’t that high. Also, if he comes from a samurai family, she should have some land holdings from his father. If he became a ronin from doing something so dishonorable that their holdings were taken away, generally speaking, she would not take anything from him in the first place, as nobles only married other nobles, so his actions taking her out of her social class would be unforgivable.

As far as reforging the blade, that’s okay, but it’s more so more fiction, everyone wasn’t running around with ancient swords, if you are using it, it probably will eventually become unusable. Samurai running around with old swords was another effect of the sword ban.

No one made swords after, so the samurai that were authorized to carry them only had family heirlooms because those were the only ones left. The samurai as we know them were largely fictional, as with their virtues and ideals, conceived after a post war era, where they had to justify their existence and privileges in a state that didn’t use them anymore.
They were an aristocratic patrician class that had authority based on what their ancestors the BUSHI, did.

BUSHI got things done, and had Few if none of the values that the samurai waxed poetic about.

Bushi were the special forces/heavy infantry and cavalry of japan. They were killers.
Samurai were the socialized, civil servants, and land lords that inherited the spoils of war that their ancestors gained.

See the French aristocracy for an almost analogous equvalent