Vassal of Bahamut

[Kelb_Panthera]

So here's the deal: I want to get into vassal of bahamut (BoED) on-time. The catch is that one of the requirements is to solo a juvenile red dragon (CR10). How can this be done on a melee chassis with minimal/no cheese. No flaws, bonus points for paladin entry.

Here's the full requirements:

Requirements

Base Attack Bonus: +7

Alignment: Lawful good

Skills: Craft (armorsmithing) 5 ranks , Diplomacy 5 ranks

Feats: Sacred Vow , Vow of Obedience

Special: The character must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon


Edit: Include race and gear per WBL. I'm reasonably confident it can't be done by class alone.

[Troacctid]

What about the old standby, shivering touch? Juvenile red dragons only have 10 Dexterity and 9 touch AC, with no spell resistance.

[Thurbane]

^ Shivering Touch is a decent option. Problem is, VoB isn't a great PrC to enter as a caster. So maybe try to get it as an SLA, or in a spell-storing weapon?

As I mentioned in the IC thread, Arrows of Slaying? If you don't want to be an archer, you can stab with arrows at a -4 penalty. Pretty risky though.

[Troacctid]

^ Shivering Touch is a decent option. Problem is, VoB isn't a great PrC to enter as a caster. So maybe try to get it as an SLA, or in a spell-storing weapon?
I'd be inclined to use a wand. Arcane Schooling feat lets you bypass the UMD check.

[Nifft]

I'd be inclined to use a wand. Arcane Schooling feat lets you bypass the UMD check.

Yeah, I'd do this with UMD and a wand or three.

The other thing is that you need to stay full-BAB to get into VoB "on time" at BAB +7.

From the Alternative Ways to Get Class Skills (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9691) thread, I see:


Academy Graduate feat (Savage Tide Player's Guide, p10) lets you have any 3 cha or int-based skills


UMD is Cha-based, so grab that and two more Cha skills.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about the old standby, shivering touch? Juvenile red dragons only have 10 Dexterity and 9 touch AC, with no spell resistance.

That spell is already an adjudication nightmare just cast normally. Trying to figure out how it interacts with becoming an item makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Then there's activating the item.

Got anything else?

[Venger]

What about the old standby, shivering touch? Juvenile red dragons only have 10 Dexterity and 9 touch AC, with no spell resistance.

Shivering touch is always the right answer.

While arcane schooling is a good trick, you've now spent all your feats assuming nonhuman and on-time entry, so that'll be kind of a pain in the butt for later on once you're in the class. You don't have any power attack or anything, and even if you've got another slot left open for human, the taxes for this class really hurt.

You might dip some arrows in dex damaging ravages, since your gm may hold you to an exalted code of conduct and disallow poisons not called ravages. If not, then any dex poison will work too, under the same principle that like with arrows of slaying, he'll roll a 1 eventually. I hope your character is also good at hiding/kiting.


Yeah, I'd do this with UMD and a wand or three.

The other thing is that you need to stay full-BAB to get into VoB "on time" at BAB +7.

From the Alternative Ways to Get Class Skills (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9691) thread, I see:


UMD is Cha-based, so grab that and two more Cha skills.
Good suggestion, but unfortunately this is for iron chef, so no pathfinder.


That spell is already an adjudication nightmare just cast normally. Trying to figure out how it interacts with becoming an item makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Then there's activating the item.

Got anything else?
What are you talking about? You use the normal item creation rules.

[Troacctid]

Shivering touch is always the right answer.

While arcane schooling is a good trick, you've now spent all your feats assuming nonhuman and on-time entry, so that'll be kind of a pain in the butt for later on once you're in the class. You don't have any power attack or anything, and even if you've got another slot left open for human, the taxes for this class really hurt.
Eh, if you're trying to stick to full BAB for the first 7 levels, you might as well dip Fighter anyway. Not like you're getting much out of Paladin 7.

[Venger]

Eh, if you're trying to stick to full BAB for the first 7 levels, you might as well dip Fighter anyway. Not like you're getting much out of Paladin 7.

I assumed A-game, but you're right.

[Thurbane]

I'd be inclined to use a wand. Arcane Schooling feat lets you bypass the UMD check.

Huh, I was unaware of that feat. That's definitely a good one to keep in mind for a number of builds. Although I do find regional feats a bit irksome.

[Zaq]

Trying to think of ways to do this defensively rather than in a save-or-die nova (or an equivalent like Shivering Touch). Assuming that for some reason you can just go toe-to-toe with it for long enough to punch it to death, which is an incredibly stupid assumption to make for a whole lot of reasons. Like, a whole lot. But let's just play with the numbers.

You'll want immunity to fire and/or a buttload of fire resist, since the breath weapon deals 8d10, average 44. Not impossible to get by ECL 7, but not trivial, either. On non-breath rounds, you're looking at five attacks varying from (I think) 2d6 + 12 (bite gets 1.5 STR, right?) at + 24ish to hit down to 1d4 + 4 (wings get 0.5 STR, right?) at like +19ish to hit? I think? The numbers are not as straightforward as I'd like.

Interestingly enough, juvenile red dragons can't break DR/magic, unless there's something in the incredibly-obnoxiously-spread-out dragon section of MM1 saying that dragons' natural weapons always count as magical.

We're only allowed to use full BAB classes? That's all kinds of awful, because I actually think a properly built Incarnate can do a lot towards making themselves highly resistant to everything a juvenile red has access to (yes, yes, Incarnates can't be LG and therefore can't get into Vassal of Bahamut, but I'm brainstorming here). Astral Vambraces + Flame Cincture would do an awful lot towards blunting the effectiveness of the weapons if you've got enough essentia somehow, though there's no such thing as enough essentia.

How much of that can we fake with a Soulborn? Two flaws and azurin (or, if necessary, silverbrow human) seems like a necessary starting point. I mean, yes, Soulborn really is just that awful (at ECL 7, you naturally have one single meld and one single essentia, plus maybe two more from your class-granted bonus incarnum feats, which is beyond terrible). Hmm. Spend two flaws getting the Vassal feat taxes out of the way, and that leaves a total of three or four feats with which to gain extra melds, extra essentia, and actual offensive power. The essentia is the killer part. Oh, and Soulborns have lower essentia caps than Incarnates do, and we probably don't have the feat space for fixing that. I don't think we can fake this without cheese.

Is there a reliable method for a full-BAB character like this to get nontrivial DR, even DR/magic, by ECL 7? That'll really take the edge off if we're trying to do something other than one-shot it with a slaying arrow or with Shivering Touch.

What other save-or-lose effects can we cook up? Can we get a cower loop with Imperious Command and the Fearsome Armor (and whatever else is needed) set up by ECL 7? Dragons aren't actually immune to fear that isn't called Frightful Presence, right? That might work.

Red dragons have the [Fire] keyword. How much weapons-grade cheese would it take to get a Paladin to have access to the Fire domain and then to have enough juice to succeed at rebuking or commanding it? Once it's commanded, it's 100% at your mercy and can be CdG'd, I believe. Paladins are starting behind the 8-ball when it comes to turning, but as I said, I'm really just brainstorming.

How hard would it be for a Duskblade to get enough cold damage to statistically kill the dragon in fewer rounds than it would take the dragon to kill the Duskblade?

[Zaq]

Hmm. Hope this isn't a double post, but I think that this post is meaty enough to warrant not being a simple edit. What if we just throw a straight Crusader at the problem? You can have a 4th level maneuver at level 7. If you can get the dragon to fail a Fort save (read: you cannot do this), Overwhelming Mountain Strike will prevent it from full attacking, or Divine Surge is just pretty respectable +numbers, plus you've got your lower-level maneuvers as well. Crusader recovery mechanic means never taking a round off from using something cool, even if it's not likely to be the same cool thing every turn (let's leave the Idiot Crusader by the wayside). How much to-hit can we afford to toss into Stone Power each round? Gaining 10 THP a round and having Steely Resolve will make the healing strikes go a long way, especially if we can throw in a moderate amount of actual DR as well (azurin, Shape Soulmeld for the Astral Vambraces, and get one or two more essentia from a feat, perhaps?). Leave the fire resist to an item, I suppose, though I'm not sure how taxing that is on our budget. And I admit that getting enough bonus to hit every round with assorted nickel-and-dime penalties might be nontrivial when working alone.

As stated previously, assuming that you can just stand-and-bang with a juvenile red and wear it down through attrition is a problematic assumption in the first place (if for no other reason than that it can fly), but once again, it's kind of interesting to play with the numbers anyway.

Going in an entirely different direction, how many PA multipliers can we stack up by level 7 on, say, a Hood build? We may need to posit that we can engineer a way to jump down on the dragon (it's Large, which is very difficult for a Hood build to jump down on from ground level by just ECL 7, especially if we aren't allowed to lose a single point of BAB), but once you start stacking multipliers, the numbers do get pretty crazy. I'm not sure if Pounce can be on the table while staying LG the whole time, but still.

[Venger]

Trying to think of ways to do this defensively rather than in a save-or-die nova (or an equivalent like Shivering Touch). Assuming that for some reason you can just go toe-to-toe with it for long enough to punch it to death, which is an incredibly stupid assumption to make for a whole lot of reasons. Like, a whole lot. But let's just play with the numbers.

You'll want immunity to fire and/or a buttload of fire resist, since the breath weapon deals 8d10, average 44. Not impossible to get by ECL 7, but not trivial, either. On non-breath rounds, you're looking at five attacks varying from (I think) 2d6 + 12 (bite gets 1.5 STR, right?) at + 24ish to hit down to 1d4 + 4 (wings get 0.5 STR, right?) at like +19ish to hit? I think? The numbers are not as straightforward as I'd like.
I mean, sure you can weather his attacks, but that doesn't do anything to actually kill the dragon, which is a pretty serious issue.

I don't hate anything as much as dragons in this game.
Yes, bite gets 1.5 str like always. It's the primary for dragons, all the rest are secondary, so get 0.5.

juvenile red dragon has
1 bite +24 (2d6+13) avg 20
2 claws +19 (1d8+9) avg 27
2 wings +19 (1d8+9) avg 27
1 tail slap +19 (1d8+9) avg 13.5

so you get 6 attacks, dealing on average 87.5, which will straight up kill you at lvl 7, no matter what you are, and at +19 at worst, he's going to hit you.



Interestingly enough, juvenile red dragons can't break DR/magic, unless there's something in the incredibly-obnoxiously-spread-out dragon section of MM1 saying that dragons' natural weapons always count as magical.
There's not, but his str is so high, putting a dent even of 5 or 10 in there won't help that much.


Is there a reliable method for a full-BAB character like this to get nontrivial DR, even DR/magic, by ECL 7? That'll really take the edge off if we're trying to do something other than one-shot it with a slaying arrow or with Shivering Touch.
There's templates that give powers like that, but that's its own issue.


What other save-or-lose effects can we cook up? Can we get a cower loop with Imperious Command and the Fearsome Armor (and whatever else is needed) set up by ECL 7? Dragons aren't actually immune to fear that isn't called Frightful Presence, right? That might work.
Now we're a brute who's got to have a cha of 15? Juvenile red has no special resistance to fear.



Red dragons have the [Fire] keyword. How much weapons-grade cheese would it take to get a Paladin to have access to the Fire domain and then to have enough juice to succeed at rebuking or commanding it? Once it's commanded, it's 100% at your mercy and can be CdG'd, I believe. Paladins are starting behind the 8-ball when it comes to turning, but as I said, I'm really just brainstorming.
You need an effective rebuking level of 32 to command him, and since he's not undead, bagpipes of the damned don't work. I don't know if it's possible to get your bonus that high by level



How hard would it be for a Duskblade to get enough cold damage to statistically kill the dragon in fewer rounds than it would take the dragon to kill the Duskblade?
A level 7 duskblade only has access to 2s. We'll assume he uses one feat on arcane strike to boost damage (so he also needs versatile spellcaster, this build will need at least 1 flaw, even as a human) or he can ignore those and take power attack instead in addition to his taxes. The only thing you've really got dealing cold is chill touch, which isn't going to be able to handle the dragon before he kills you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anything that has DR/magic bypasses DR/magic per the special abilities entry in the MM.

I explicitly said no flaws. You get 1 feat for most non-humans; 2 for humans, azurins, and strongheart halflings; and maybe a couple extras for a fighter dip once the VoB prereq's are taken out.

I don't think anything that keys on HD in any way or allows a fort save has any real chance here. Even stuff on ref and will saves are near enough to a coin toss.

Personally, I'd been looking at an azurin pally with sapphire smite and a mighty smiting weapon for damage.

[Zaq]

Anything that has DR/magic bypasses DR/magic per the special abilities entry in the MM.

I explicitly said no flaws. You get 1 feat for most non-humans; 2 for humans, azurins, and strongheart halflings; and maybe a couple extras for a fighter dip once the VoB prereq's are taken out.

I don't think anything that keys on HD in any way or allows a fort save has any real chance here. Even stuff on ref and will saves are near enough to a coin toss.

Personally, I'd been looking at an azurin pally with sapphire smite and a mighty smiting weapon for damage.


My bad on missing "no flaws." Regarding DR, though, reds don't get DR/magic until they're young adults, which is one step past our goal of juvenile.

[Venger]

Hmm. Hope this isn't a double post, but I think that this post is meaty enough to warrant not being a simple edit. What if we just throw a straight Crusader at the problem? You can have a 4th level maneuver at level 7. If you can get the dragon to fail a Fort save (read: you cannot do this), Overwhelming Mountain Strike will prevent it from full attacking, or Divine Surge is just pretty respectable +numbers, plus you've got your lower-level maneuvers as well. Crusader recovery mechanic means never taking a round off from using something cool, even if it's not likely to be the same cool thing every turn (let's leave the Idiot Crusader by the wayside). How much to-hit can we afford to toss into Stone Power each round? Gaining 10 THP a round and having Steely Resolve will make the healing strikes go a long way, especially if we can throw in a moderate amount of actual DR as well (azurin, Shape Soulmeld for the Astral Vambraces, and get one or two more essentia from a feat, perhaps?). Leave the fire resist to an item, I suppose, though I'm not sure how taxing that is on our budget. And I admit that getting enough bonus to hit every round with assorted nickel-and-dime penalties might be nontrivial when working alone.

As stated previously, assuming that you can just stand-and-bang with a juvenile red and wear it down through attrition is a problematic assumption in the first place (if for no other reason than that it can fly), but once again, it's kind of interesting to play with the numbers anyway.

Going in an entirely different direction, how many PA multipliers can we stack up by level 7 on, say, a Hood build? We may need to posit that we can engineer a way to jump down on the dragon (it's Large, which is very difficult for a Hood build to jump down on from ground level by just ECL 7, especially if we aren't allowed to lose a single point of BAB), but once you start stacking multipliers, the numbers do get pretty crazy. I'm not sure if Pounce can be on the table while staying LG the whole time, but still.

crusader 7 is ok, but even assuming favorable initiative because the dragon was busy playing tiddywinks, you using wrt, and either starting your turn next to him or having travel devotion/pounce/etc, you will still have a hard time dealing 168 damage by yourself since bahamut's taxes retard your progression in the shock trooper line

it's not necessarily that you're not allowed to enter late, we'll just assume that you must enter by lvl 11 so you can finish the class, so there's not much wiggle room, or I'd suggest feral or something.

let's assume fullbab xx7, human, 18 starting str, put lvl 4 bonus into str, +4 item of str for 23, mod 6, medium greatsword, assume +1 weapon (+7 ba +6 str +1 magic +2 charging) so you'd be hitting for (+16/+11) for 2d6+10, avg 17.

assume you're pa-ing for full (so your one free feat is pa), which shores up your damage to 31 or 62/round. Assuming you hit with both attacks and can get 2 full attacks, you'll deal 124 damage that round, say you use your human feat for leap attack to get you to 138, still short by 30.

Without more feats, it'll be pretty hard to improve your damage by very much. You might get a str bonus from race, but then you lose your human feat, which makes things a little tighter.

[Fizban]

A charging lance crit might do it, not reliable but the only way it should actually happen and if the sidebar in Rules Compendium is any indication, somebody thought charging lance crits against dragons was awesome. x3 spirited charge+ x2 rhino's rush +x3 crit= x6 without stacking anything else. Get a dragonbane lance, use a scroll of Find the Gap to get a touch attack, Bless Weapon to ignore the crit confirm, now all you need is 28 points before multiplying and the natural 20, ha. Pal 7, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience.

Just on the spirited rush lance you can get x4. Rhino Hide armor, Blade of Blood, and Divine Sacrifice together can get you 10d6 for ~35, not counting the possibility of metamagic (note your 3 round durations at Pal7), ~42 after Bane. Use a scroll of Righteous Fury to pad your hp and get some more strength , even a human can hit 22 easy (or just a potion of Bull's Strength, and you need human to hit Spirited Charge and both bad prereqs without losing Pal casting). +1 dragonbane lance would be 1d8+9 str+3 enhance+7 smite, ~23. 23x4+42= 134, only 34 short as long as you don't roll below average.

Brute Gauntlets are worth another +16 and burn your swift action (edit: which was already occupied by Rhino's Rush, but a scroll of Extended Rhino's Rush ought to work). An oil of Greater Magic Weapon, Holy Sword, or Weapon Bless from OA is worth another +8. If you can Empowered Spellshard Divine Sacrifice, that's another 2.5d6. Enlarge Person would make you too big for your mount, except potions include the usual "user is the caster" line, so you can share that with your mount, and get the +2.5 from size increase, multiplied by x4 to +10. Lesser Energy Assault (Cold) for 1.5d6 since it can't cast Resist Energy yet, another 5 per hit.

If you make the run just before 8th level, your official WBL should be close to 27,000, more than enough for lot.

Obviously this plan depends entirely on the arrogance of the (not yet fully grown) dragon and its lack of knowledge about the rules, while you are allowed full player knowledge, because that's the only way it should ever work. You fly out from a safe harbor over the dragon's territory (on your Pegasus courtesy of the DMG) every day, until it gets fed up with you. When it is at the appropriate distance you begin casting your buffs, then make the charge. Is stacking all of that together cheesy? Well I didn't even use Valorous or everyone's favorite Power Attack, so . . . ?

Things would be a *lot* easier if you could just Ride by Attack to avoid getting full attacked, then make even a single follow up blow (even at range, since Find the Gap and Divine Sacrifice both work with ranged attacks). Fighter 1/Pal 6 can manage it, but you have to make do with a Hippogriff instead. Not much of a change.

A Ranger could also combine Guided Shot and Hunter's Mercy (and that Find the Gap scroll again) to land at least two auto-crits (or more if you don't give the dragon perfect info on the location, remember that -1 per 10', while the dragon's out in the open). With +1 Bane composite^6 longbow, you've got 13x3+7= 46 per hit. Plus anywhere from 6 to 27 depending on favored enemy bonus (+2, +4, Improved Favored Enemy, Enemy Spirit Pouch). Ranger/Pal gets the best of both worlds, adding +4 to the base damage from Favored Enemy 1+Enemy Spirit Pouch with no effort, and access to both lists of tricks, able to launch crit arrows and then finish with a charge. The ranger of course needs more scrolls/wands/pearls to pull this off.

The secret tech for dealing with an approaching melee foe in the open field, is the readied move action. With a fly speed of 150' it can charge from at most 600' with a dive. If it's coming straight at you horizontally, it can only charge from 300'. If you're above it, no charges, just circling to ascend at most 150' per round (unless it has Power Climb), while you also ascend at half your speed. You and your mount have your own move actions, of quite comparable speed with a Hipp or Peg. Depending on how specific you need to be: you (or your mount) ready to move sideways or diagonally back when it's in charge range, then to move straight back if it holds off on charging and tries to reach single move+attack range (or possibly forward if it can't switch from flying to walking/you can outrange if they turn the standard into ground move). Of course once you start actually using this, the DM ought to be using it too, and now you've both got to deal with the full complexity of aerial maneuverability and finding the perfect position to maintain your advantage- something which would probably be quite natural to the animal, but is rather more annoying for us.

I'd say, Ranger 1/Pal 6, wand chambered +1 Bane heavy composite bow with Guided Shot, a few scrolls of Hunter's Mercy, two scrolls of Find the Gap, Enemy Spirit Pouch, potions of Bull's Strength and maybe Cat's Grace, and a Hippogriff, with Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge for your open feats, a lance, and some Brute Gauntlets. You start by flying some distance above the target, say 500' (or maybe just 200' up and 500' horizontal), drink your potions, pop Find the Gap, hit the Guided Shot button, and decide how savvy the DM thinks they can play the dragon. Leading with Hunter's Mercy is the obvious plan, but if you think it will run then lead with a volley of normal arrows: the first should hit and establish you as a threat, then the rest miss, and the dragon knows they need to deal with you or flee, but the first arrow didn't do *that* much damage and you're only so far away. You then backpedal while launching volleys or cycling Hunter's Mercy (it only has AC 22 base). Once it's softened up enough and the distance is right, you drop the bow and spirited Rhino Rush lance charge with Brute Gauntlets at max, which should be worth about 70 points (+1 dragonbane lance would push that above 80, so you might hit it all the way from half hp). Or if it decides to break away, you pursue at full speed.

Really the main trick is setting things up so that the dragon takes damage at just the right rate, such that by the time it hits half hp (usually recognized as the point of retreat), it's close enough it won't be able to get away. With 7 rounds of Find the Gap and a wand of Guided Shot, you've got 6 shots (thanks to spell duration problems), but each high str dragonbane favored enemy+pouch frost crystal shot shot is an easy 29 damage. Heck, you'd probably have to start out moving *towards* the dragon to make it think it could catch you in time.

So the real question is weather or not wand chambers of Guided Shot are cheesy, and while I've never seen anyone complain about it, all you gotta do is use it to realize yeah it pretty much is. The best part is that even if you drill down and toss the wand chambers, ban the spell from wands entirely, you can find the original spell in Minatures Handbook, where is was Ranger 1-only and did nothing but cover negation (SpC calls Guided Shot out specifically as being renamed from Guided Arrow). Ah, SpC, the spell borker.

[Saintheart]

Two thoughts:

(1) How much of a sense of humour and/or does your DM like twisting wishes?

Mainly because the RAW of the qualification for Vassal of Bahamut doesn't specify whether you have to kill a dragon, or a creature of the dragon type. Dragonwrought kobold type changes from dragonblood type to dragon, and the dragonwrought kobold's scales take on the tint of its dragon ancestor. Find a red dragonwrought kobold (which will invariably have been cheesed to venerable), kill it, done.

(2) When it comes to delivering something like Shivering Touch, there are simple magic options for doing that. If Forgotten Realms material is permitted, go find yourself a runecaster and ask him for a single-use (or multiple-use) rune of Shivering Touch on a piece of paper, and have the runecaster craft it so it triggers when passed or read. At the most confined reading, you glue that rune to the entrance to the dragon's cave, call out some appropriate speculation on the dragon's parentage, and the moment it gets within 30 feet of the rune, the spell explicitly triggers against "whoever triggers the rune", i.e. it's a simple magic trap, which is what runes were meant to function as.

A single-use rune would set you back about 50 x level x CL x 2, thus, about 50 x 3 x 5 x 2 = 1,500 gp to create.

[Fizban]

If all you want is to deliver a trap, you don't even need a fancy prestige class: A Glyph Seal/Greater Glyph Seal will do the trick. There's also Gem Magic from Magic of Faerun, a massively abusable type of magic item I've never heard anyone really mention- how about we make a potion, but instead of drinking, it activates automatically on touch, or after a timer, or like a magic trap than can be distinguish between races and alignment and appearance and so on? For say, less than a +50% increase in cost? (Sure it works out to about the same thing as the rune's abusability, and it costs more, but you don't need to assume a PrC, just a crafting feat).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Good rundown, Fizban. Lance charging does look promising. I think the UA variant paladin with Favoured Enemy instead of Turn Undead might work nicely, though I'm guessing it trips the cheese warning. Gets you that extra FI bonus against dragons (should stack with ranger).

Oh, and Vow of Poverty technically lets you qualify with feats to spare. Human paladin 7 with Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty (human bonus), and Vow of Obedience (VoP 1 bonus) has level 3 and 6 feats as well as VoP 2, 4, 6 free. Yes, it's a stupid idea, but Touch of Golden Ice does let you deal Dexterity damage (5% of the time). Celestial Mount isn't bad either.

[WhamBamSam]

Good rundown, Fizban. Lance charging does look promising. I think the UA variant paladin with Favoured Enemy instead of Turn Undead might work nicely, though I'm guessing it trips the cheese warning. Gets you that extra FI bonus against dragons (should stack with ranger).Using a mount might violate the 'single combat' requirement.

I don't see why the Favored Enemy variant should be considered cheesy by an even marginally reasonable DM. It's a generally inferior trade-off that happens to focus the character toward its design goal of slaying dragons.

Shivering Touch is probably the best option.

A non-dedicated archer might be able to take a pot shot with arrows of dragonslaying then run away, and keep doing that until the dragon fails a save. Of course, the dragon might start taking precautions before you get the number of shots you need to get lucky.

You could kill the dragon as a higher level character, then celebrate by high fiving a Wight until you're back at ECL 7.

[Venger]

Using a mount might violate the 'single combat' requirement.

I don't see why the Favored Enemy variant should be considered cheesy by an even marginally reasonable DM. It's a generally inferior trade-off that happens to focus the character toward its design goal of slaying dragons.

Shivering Touch is probably the best option.

A non-dedicated archer might be able to take a pot shot with arrows of dragonslaying then run away, and keep doing that until the dragon fails a save. Of course, the dragon might start taking precautions before you get the number of shots you need to get lucky.

You could kill the dragon as a higher level character, then celebrate by high fiving a Wight until you're back at ECL 7.
Mounts are part of your character's offensive abilities. If you were a conjurer, it wouldn't forbid you from using summons.

But if you do try to kite, how will you
A) outrun him
B) hide from him since he's faster than you

[WhamBamSam]

Mounts are part of your character's offensive abilities. If you were a conjurer, it wouldn't forbid you from using summons.

But if you do try to kite, how will you
A) outrun him
B) hide from him since he's faster than youPoint. Best thing I can think of with relatively low-level magic is to Alter Self with a wand and burrow to safety and/or Benign Transpositon with a series of unconscious rats that I've left hidden at maximum range increments.

[Venger]

Point. Best thing I can think of with relatively low-level magic is to Alter Self with a wand and burrow to safety and/or Benign Transpositon with a series of unconscious rats that I've left hidden at maximum range increments.

arcane schooling or similar's looking like a must. if your burrowing leaves a tunnel, won't his breath weapon kill you? or will you immediately make a 90 degree turn, so you're not targetable, or something else?

good call on the rats. the ever-useful bag of rats.

[WhamBamSam]

arcane schooling or similar's looking like a must. if your burrowing leaves a tunnel, won't his breath weapon kill you? or will you immediately make a 90 degree turn, so you're not targetable, or something else?

good call on the rats. the ever-useful bag of rats.Hopefully my form will burrow without leaving a tunnel, but if not then yeah. Probably that or else just getting some fire resistance or something and tanking the blast. 8d10 is rough at level 7, but any full BAB entry will have at least 7d8+7*Con so, and the dragon can't breathe for another 1d4 rounds, so as long as it can't do anything else to hurt you, you should be able to deal. If we're committed to the rats, then the tunnels could be set up ahead of time with rats already in them.

[Venger]

Hopefully my form will burrow without leaving a tunnel, but if not then yeah. Probably that or else just getting some fire resistance or something and tanking the blast. 8d10 is rough at level 7, but any full BAB entry will have at least 7d8+7*Con so, and the dragon can't breathe for another 1d4 rounds, so as long as it can't do anything else to hurt you, you should be able to deal. If we're committed to the rats, then the tunnels could be set up ahead of time with rats already in them.

Roll neraph and turn into a xorn to get earth glide style burrow, though this does cost you a feat, which makes everything else harder.

While the breath weapon alone may not kill you, he's still got all that melee. Xorn movement does not require a tunnel, so no prep work in that regard is necessary.

If you wanted to mundanely tunnel and fill the whole tunnel with regularly spaced rats, then that way you'd only need a small number of rats on the surface, so the dragon would be less likely to figure out what you were doing and/or upset your breadcrumb trail by accident by clipping your rats with his breath weapon.

[Fouredged Sword]

168HP to remove in one shot...

Have you considered the iconic mounted charge? You will ether need to draw the dragon down or use a flying mount (of have your intelligent horse down a potion of fly)

The you two hand a lance and spirited charge.

Cross class UMD gives you 5 ranks and +3 charisma mod. Get an item of + UMD so you have a good shot at reading a scroll of wraithstrike.

Have the party cleric magic weapon your dragonbane lance.

A normal hit will deal (1d8 + 1.5 str+ 2x power attack +2 charge + 3 enhancement + 2 dragonbane+7 smite).

With power attacking for +7 (you are hitting a 9 AC). (4+6 (18 str) + 14 + 2 + 3 + 2+7) 38 damage times 3, so 114 damage

Two charges will kill the dragon. The trick is avoiding the full attack to get the second charge.

So do not stop next to the dragon. Use ride by attack to move out of it's reach. It now cannot full attack you.

Then you tank the flame breath OR single melee attack. You can prebuff for fire resistance and have the HP to tank the single bite.

Then have your mount retrain one of it's starting feats to travel devotion so it can move away from the dragon and let you charge again.

You stand a better than 50% chance to win the fight if you win initiative.

[Venger]

168HP to remove in one shot...

Have you considered the iconic mounted charge? You will ether need to draw the dragon down or use a flying mount (of have your intelligent horse down a potion of fly)

The you two hand a lance and spirited charge.

Cross class UMD gives you 5 ranks and +3 charisma mod. Get an item of + UMD so you have a good shot at reading a scroll of wraithstrike.

Have the party cleric magic weapon your dragonbane lance.

A normal hit will deal (1d8 + 1.5 str+ 2x power attack +2 charge + 3 enhancement + 2 dragonbane+7 smite).

With power attacking for +7 (you are hitting a 9 AC). (4+6 (18 str) + 14 + 2 + 3 + 2+7) 38 damage times 3, so 114 damage

Two charges will kill the dragon. The trick is avoiding the full attack to get the second charge.

So do not stop next to the dragon. Use ride by attack to move out of it's reach. It now cannot full attack you.

Then you tank the flame breath OR single melee attack. You can prebuff for fire resistance and have the HP to tank the single bite.

Then have your mount retrain one of it's starting feats to travel devotion so it can move away from the dragon and let you charge again.

You stand a better than 50% chance to win the fight if you win initiative.

use reins of ascension on the horse if your mount can't fly. it's limited duration, but you'll only need it for a short time.

having another character cast buffs on you so you can kill the dragon may be straying a little from killing the dragon yourself. you're already using cc umd for scrolls, so you can just cast it yourself.

everything else looks pretty good.

[Fouredged Sword]

use reins of ascension on the horse if your mount can't fly. it's limited duration, but you'll only need it for a short time.

having another character cast buffs on you so you can kill the dragon may be straying a little from killing the dragon yourself. you're already using cc umd for scrolls, so you can just cast it yourself.

everything else looks pretty good.

The problem with my plan is what a smart red dragon does the turn after a crazy fricken paladin smashes it with a lance for 3/5th's it's HP.

It turns around and flies away at 450ft per round as flying run actions. No way a paladin can keep up unassisted.

No way it hangs around to see if the paladin can swing a second charge.

We need a way to ether hit 56 base damage on the attack or UMD surge of fortune to auto crit the charge...

AH! UMD (ot have a friendly cleric cast) a scroll of guidance of the avatar and use THAT to UMD a scroll of Surge of Fortune rather than wraithstrike.

Now you have 10 or so rounds to charge the dragon and autocrit to boost the ×3 damage multiplier into x5.

Now so long as you have 34 flat damage you kill the dragon on the first charge.

[Venger]

The problem with my plan is what a smart red dragon does the turn after a crazy fricken paladin smashes it with a lance for 3/5th's it's HP.

It turns around and flies away at 450ft per round as flying run actions. No way a paladin can keep up unassisted.

No way it hangs around to see if the paladin can swing a second charge.

We need a way to ether hit 56 base damage on the attack or UMD surge of fortune to auto crit the charge...

AH! UMD (ot have a friendly cleric cast) a scroll of guidance of the avatar and use THAT to UMD a scroll of Surge of Fortune rather than wraithstrike.

Now you have 10 or so rounds to charge the dragon and autocrit to boost the ×3 damage multiplier into x5.

Now so long as you have 34 flat damage you kill the dragon on the first charge.
Well, that goes without saying. That's why personally, I think you must do it in one turn. You could just have your guy buy 2 novice crowns of the white raven, do everything you've outlined twice, and kill the thing

[Goaty14]

168HP to remove in one shot...

Have you considered the iconic mounted charge? You will ether need to draw the dragon down or use a flying mount (of have your intelligent horse down a potion of fly)

The you two hand a lance and spirited charge.

Cross class UMD gives you 5 ranks and +3 charisma mod. Get an item of + UMD so you have a good shot at reading a scroll of wraithstrike.

Have the party cleric magic weapon your dragonbane lance.

A normal hit will deal (1d8 + 1.5 str+ 2x power attack +2 charge + 3 enhancement + 2 dragonbane+7 smite).

With power attacking for +7 (you are hitting a 9 AC). (4+6 (18 str) + 14 + 2 + 3 + 2+7) 38 damage times 3, so 114 damage

Two charges will kill the dragon. The trick is avoiding the full attack to get the second charge.

So do not stop next to the dragon. Use ride by attack to move out of it's reach. It now cannot full attack you.

Then you tank the flame breath OR single melee attack. You can prebuff for fire resistance and have the HP to tank the single bite.

Then have your mount retrain one of it's starting feats to travel devotion so it can move away from the dragon and let you charge again.

You stand a better than 50% chance to win the fight if you win initiative.

This, but inject yourself with a Tempo Bloodspike (Eberron; Gives an extra move action within the next hour activated as a free action) to cast a swift-action (move actions can be swift actions like how standard -> move) Rhino's Rush spell (pally spell, no UMD) for an additional x2 damage.

Congrats, you've one-shotted the dragon.

[Venger]

This, but inject yourself with a Tempo Bloodspike (Eberron; Gives an extra move action within the next hour activated as a free action) to cast a swift-action (move actions can be swift actions like how standard -> move) Rhino's Rush spell (pally spell, no UMD) for an additional x2 damage.

Congrats, you've one-shotted the dragon.

I regret to inform you that you can't use a move action to perform a swift, or a standard to perform a move, even though they're "lesser" actions. This is why rkv is such a big deal, for example. But he could just cast rhino's rush on the round he charges and use the bloodspike for extra distance in case the dragon's flying, but still in his killzone

[Fouredged Sword]

In review, not enough feats.

Sacred Vow, Vow of obedience, power attack, mount combat, ride by attack, spirited charge...

So drop mounted combat, ride by attack, and spirited charge. 3 feats at 6th level.

Now, surge of fortune activation is an immidiate action. It lasts until the NEXT round. Your swift action refills during your action.

So, turn order.
Turn 1-2 - Down 2 potions of guidance if the avatar.
Turn 3 - Read scroll of surge of fortune.
Turn 4 - Read scroll of wraithstrike.

Move within charging range of the red dragon. You have 3ish rounds to do so.

Then, right before your action activate the immidiate action use of surge of fortune. It lasts 1 full round.

THEN use your turn to use your new swift action to cast rieno's rush and charge with a lance. RR replaces spirited charge and you auto crit. 5x damage. Base 34 damage = auto kill with a smite.

Requires power attack,

[Goaty14]

Wraithstrike and RR are both swift actions. They cannot both be cast in the same round.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wraithstrike and RR are both swift actions. They cannot both be cast in the same round.
I miss remembered wraithstrike as having multiple rounds of duration.

The plan still works, you just need to overcome the 24 AC to confirm the crit.

7 bab + 4 str +2 charge+2 bane+3 enhancement + 3 cha (smite)...

Even power attacking for 7 (and you don't need to) you still hit more than 50% of the time.

[WhamBamSam]

Y'know, it only takes 26 years to get a wyrmling to Juvenile age. Maybe we could capture a wyrmling (or even steal an egg), keep it captive for 26 years debilitated by poisons ravages, put it out of its misery when it reaches Juvenile age, and then try to convince the DM that we still count as Exalted Good.

[Venger]

Y'know, it only takes 26 years to get a wyrmling to Juvenile age. Maybe we could capture a wyrmling (or even steal an egg), keep it captive for 26 years debilitated by poisons ravages, put it out of its misery when it reaches Juvenile age, and then try to convince the DM that we still count as Exalted Good.

I mean Exalted Good is all about imprisoning people in your basement and killing them, so that checks out. I guess the thread's over.

Who needs to steal one? You can just buy dragon's eggs or win them from evil wizards in poker games at the tavern where level 1 adventurers all spring forth into existence from the ether.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I regret to inform you that you can't use a move action to perform a swift, or a standard to perform a move
You can downgrade a standard to a move (PHB 138), and a standard to a swift (through Ready, at the very least), just not a move to a swift.

For the duration problem on wraithstrike: it is quite possible to Extend the spell, although that does require a custom magic item, or some kind of Sudden metamagic that works on potions and doesn't take an action (is there a power component that works with potions?).

[Venger]

You can downgrade a standard to a move (PHB 138), and a standard to a swift (through Ready, at the very least), just not a move to a swift.

For the duration problem on wraithstrike: it is quite possible to Extend the spell, although that does require a custom magic item, or some kind of Sudden metamagic that works on potions and doesn't take an action (is there a power component that works with potions?).

Well, that's certainly interesting. Thanks for the info.

It's possible (though inadvisable) to take extend spell and use a metamagic wandgrip, but that's not a good use of resources.

[Nifft]

I mean Exalted Good is all about imprisoning people in your basement and killing them, so that checks out. I guess the thread's over.

Excuse me, that's not our basement, we call it Hell and we don't keep any of our stuff down there.

We keep our stuff down in Arcadia and Mechanus.

The souls of the damned are tortured eternally in our sub-basement.

Signed,

— The Axiomatic Exalted Pedant

[Thurbane]

OK, here's my half-baked idea. Human X 5 (maybe ranger?)/Fighter 2 (I would have liked Hexblade for save debuffs, but it's not going to work with the reqs for VoB and the exalted feats). Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce would be helpful.

Feats:
H Sacred Vow
1 Vow of Obedience
3 Bind Vestige
6 Improved Bind Vestige
F1 Two Weapon Fighting
F2 Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Arrow of Dragon Slaying in each hand. Stab the dragon with the arrows (if you can catch it on the ground, maybe take some sneaky skills?): stab at it. -4 penalty for melee attacking with arrows. DC 20 Fort or die with each hit (23 if you can afford greater arrows). Dragon takes a -2 penalty to saves if you bind Focalor. Fort save on the beast is +14.

With a LOT of luck, you might just kill it in the first round.

[Nifft]

Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce would be helpful.

Are you allowed to be non-Lawful?

If you are, that would help in various ways.

[Venger]

Are you allowed to be non-Lawful?

If you are, that would help in various ways.

Be nonlawful when you murder the dragon so you can use pounce. As you're skinning him to make him into a suit, decide you want to be lawful, get into the class, then go nonlawful again. Vassal of bahamut's not a cwar class, so even if you're pro-cwar, you don't need to continuously qualify. There's no section on ex-vassals of bahamut.

[Nifft]

Be nonlawful when you murder the dragon so you can use pounce. As you're skinning him to make him into a suit, decide you want to be lawful, get into the class, then go nonlawful again. Vassal of bahamut's not a cwar class, so even if you're pro-cwar, you don't need to continuously qualify. There's no section on ex-vassals of bahamut.

If there's no DM then there's no problem with arbitrarily changing alignment at-will.

But if this is for a real game, there might tend to be a DM.

[Venger]

If there's no DM then there's no problem with arbitrarily changing alignment at-will.

But if this is for a real game, there might tend to be a DM.

This is for iron chef. It's not against the rules, but some judges are like you and will deduct points for it anyway. Not all gms are pro-cwar, and fewer still apply cwar's rules to other books.

[Nifft]

This is for iron chef. It's not against the rules, but some judges are like you and will deduct points for it anyway. Huh, interesting. I didn't see that in the OP.


Not all gms are pro-cwar, and fewer still apply cwar's rules to other books. CWar is basically irrelevant to everything I've said -- it's certainly not necessary for a DM to disallow at-will alignment shifts.

As far as I can tell, the primary rule on alignment changing is right in the PHB (on page 104), and it says that your DM may change your alignment based on your character's actions. Per that primary source, it's not a voluntary thing in the player's hands.

[Venger]

Huh, interesting. I didn't see that in the OP.

CWar is basically irrelevant to everything I've said -- it's certainly not necessary for a DM to disallow at-will alignment shifts.

As far as I can tell, the primary rule on alignment changing is right in the PHB (on page 104), and it says that your DM may change your alignment based on your character's actions. Per that primary source, it's not a voluntary thing in the player's hands.

You didn't miss anything; it wasn't in the op. We were discussing it in the iron chef thread and made a new thread here so as not to derail.

So you were talking about alignment change, and not prestige class qualifications. I thought you brought it up because LG is required for vassal of bahamut. Thanks for clarifying.

Well, then by the rules you've cited, there's no problem with that at all. You're tooling around, killing dragons' kids, skin a red dragon and say "man, I wish I had a boss who would set me up with more dragons to kill instead of having to do all the legwork myself" and then become lawful and work for bahamut, entering the class, and then once you're in, you go all bad cop and regain a nonlawful alignment so your pounce works. you can do all that through rp if you want

[Nifft]

You didn't miss anything; it wasn't in the op. We were discussing it in the iron chef thread and made a new thread here so as not to derail.

So you were talking about alignment change, and not prestige class qualifications. I thought you brought it up because LG is required for vassal of bahamut. Thanks for clarifying. Thanks for sharing. I guess you know from another thread, then.


Actually what I did was ask if an alignment shift was okay, since the OP specifically lists Lawful Good as the required alignment.

You claimed that of course it was, but you've got no rules to back that up, and only actual rules cited so far put that power squarely in the hands of the DM.

@Kelb_Panthera - is Venger authorized to speak for you in this?



Well, then by the rules you've cited, there's no problem with that at all. You're tooling around, killing dragons' kids, skin a red dragon and say "man, I wish I had a boss who would set me up with more dragons to kill instead of having to do all the legwork myself" and then become lawful and work for bahamut, entering the class, and then once you're in, you go all bad cop and regain a nonlawful alignment so your pounce works. you can do all that through rp if you want

The rule I cited say that you have no ability to change alignment other than waiting for it to be done by the DM -- of which there apparently is none, so maybe you can't change alignment at all -- and you don't control the timing of any alignment change, nor the destination alignment of any change. Maybe you'll be LN at 7th level, and the effort to turn LG will take you until 11th level to complete.

If that's not a problem, then the OP might want to amend the requirements in the OP.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The rule I cited say that you have no ability to change alignment other than waiting for it to be done by the DM
No, it does not. It says that the DM has the ability to change your alignment, which is not the same thing. Players are not forbidden from changing their alignment (though the DM can change it back).

[Nifft]

No, it does not. It says that the DM has the ability to change your alignment, which is not the same thing. Players are not forbidden from changing their alignment (though the DM can change it back).

It looks like the PHB says you pick an alignment during character creation.

Where do you see the ability to change your own alignment later?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It looks like the PHB says you pick an alignment during character creation.

Where do you see the ability to change your own alignment later?
Where do you see that your alignment is fixed? You arguably need an alignment to start play (if only to be able to adjudicate detect evil), but it's no more fixed than your AC value.

[Nifft]

Where do you see that your alignment is fixed? You arguably need an alignment to start play (if only to be able to adjudicate detect evil), but it's no more fixed than your AC value.

The DM can change your alignment, and I'm the one who posted where the rules say that, so obviously nobody is claiming that alignment is fixed.

What I'm asking is for you to provide a citation to support your claim that the player can change the alignment of a PC.

Is there any such rule that you can cite?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The DM can change your alignment, and I'm the one who posted where the rules say that, so obviously nobody is claiming that alignment is fixed.

What I'm asking is for you to provide a citation to support your claim that the player can change the alignment of a PC.

Is there any such rule that you can cite?
Page 5: "A character can try to do anything you can imagine". I can imagine changing alignment. You're welcome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually what I did was ask if an alignment shift was okay, since the OP specifically lists Lawful Good as the required alignment.

I'd prefer to avoid it. Deliberate alignment shifts are difficult enough on a one way basis. Trying to jump rope with one of the boundaries is just asking for a DMG upside your head.


You claimed that of course it was, but you've got no rules to back that up, and only actual rules cited so far put that power squarely in the hands of the DM.

@Kelb_Panthera - is Venger authorized to speak for you in this?

He is not. His conclusion wasn't an unreasonable one but it was still wrong. The iron chef thread just prompted me to pose this question that I've been pondering for a while to the community. It's -not- for the competition. Vassal of Bahamut isn't the current secret ingredient nor has it been decided that it will be the next anyway.





The rule I cited say that you have no ability to change alignment other than waiting for it to be done by the DM -- of which there apparently is none, so maybe you can't change alignment at all -- and you don't control the timing of any alignment change, nor the destination alignment of any change. Maybe you'll be LN at 7th level, and the effort to turn LG will take you until 11th level to complete.

Changing alignment isn't entirely within the DMs purview. The atonement spell can allow an instant, voluntary change and, unless he's deliberately trying to screw you, the DM is -supposed- to change your alignment when and if a consistent pattern of behavior fits an alignment other than your current one better.


If that's not a problem, then the OP might want to amend the requirements in the OP.

The requirements in the OP are the PrC requirements straight out of BoED.

[Anthrowhale]

Be a Neraph and pay(1.35K) for PAO[Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon)] to reach AC 35. Use a Hat of Disguise (1.8K) to appear as something more innocuous. As a Baatezu, you inherit Immunity to Fire and Poison from your type.

For feats, take Assume Supernatural Ability[Infernal Wound].

Boost your AC via a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt, Dastana, and a +1 Mithril Steel Shield (5K in total) to reach AC 43. The dragon now has a rather low probability of hitting.

With a strength of 31 and BAB+7 vs AC 24, you can typically hit.

Get a composite[10] longbow+1 so you have a ranged attack dealing 1d8+11 with an attack bonus of 15=7(bab)+7(dex)+1(magic) that typically hits.

Find the lair of the red dragon and start taking it's treasure. They hate that so it's sure to attack. Use weapons to deal with minions and target the red dragon with the bow at range. It's almost sure to try a breath weapon, but you are immune via type. Failing minions and breath weapon, it's likely to go for a physical attack. Most physical attacks will miss due to AC 43 and you'll have a chance to attack back in melee. If you hit just once with the tail attack (45% chance as a secondary natural attack), it begins to bleed at 2hp/round and must make a DC 24 heal check to end the bleeding. If the Red Dragon does not have the heal skill (likely) it will surely die in a few minutes, or faster if it chooses to stay in melee range.

[Nifft]

Page 5: "A character can try to do anything you can imagine". I can imagine changing alignment. You're welcome. Hilarious!

Well, like your PC, at least you tried.

But being allowed to try isn't the same as being able to succeed, so just as you've tried to argue yet failed to cite a rule, so also your PC has tried yet failed to re-align.

Thanks for trying.



I'd prefer to avoid it. Deliberate alignment shifts are difficult enough on a one way basis. Trying to jump rope with one of the boundaries is just asking for a DMG upside your head.

He is not. His conclusion wasn't an unreasonable one but it was still wrong. The iron chef thread just prompted me to pose this question that I've been pondering for a while to the community. It's -not- for the competition. Vassal of Bahamut isn't the current secret ingredient nor has it been decided that it will be the next anyway. Cool.


Changing alignment isn't entirely within the DMs purview. The atonement spell can allow an instant, voluntary change and, unless he's deliberately trying to screw you, the DM is -supposed- to change your alignment when and if a consistent pattern of behavior fits an alignment other than your current one better. Ah! Yes, that spell is certainly within a player's ability to engineer.

Though it does seem like "jump-rope" between law & chaos is less expected by the spell's writers than redemption from evil acts. You're redeemed from acts against your alignment, which is of questionable utility if it's your preference that's changed over time rather than your piety.


Anyway, did the UMD idea appeal to you? It's one feat, just like the Wand access feat, but it might apply to more than just wands. Or you could start with a race that grants UMD, like Arcane Gnome (from Dragon #291) -- though eschewing the bonus human feat is kinda like losing a feat anyway.

[Thurbane]

There's a reason that alignment threads usually go for 10 pages and sometimes result in flame wars. :smalleek:

Maybe we could steer the topic back to the topic at hand?

[Troacctid]

As far as I can tell, the primary rule on alignment changing is right in the PHB (on page 104), and it says that your DM may change your alignment based on your character's actions. Per that primary source, it's not a voluntary thing in the player's hands.
Page 134 of the DMG has a whole subheading on changing alignment.

https://i.imgur.com/iQoD1Bl.png

[heavyfuel]

What I'm asking is for you to provide a citation to support your claim that the player can change the alignment of a PC.

Is there any such rule that you can cite?

The Atonement spell says so.


Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

[Yogibear41]

Some people debate on what single-handedly means such as can your friends casts buffs on you before you go in to engage the creature? Can you use potions that you bought that someone else made? For this I will at least assume you can use potions. Also didn't see a point buy anywhere or if dragon magazine content/web content was okay (I might have missed it) (I also consider LA-buyoff to be non-cheesy, and definitely way less cheesy than shivering touching dragons)

This is what I came up with:

Race:
Draconic, Quasilycanthrope(phynxkin), Human (+2 la)
(one will be bought off by time you get to level 7)

Levels:
1. Ranger, Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience
2. Paladin
3. Paladin, Serenity
4. Ranger
5. Ranger
6. Ranger, Thick-Skinned
7. Ranger

Take Solitary Hunter Ranger Variant from dragon magazine, take Favored Enemy Paladin Variant from UA. This gives you a +6 Favored enemy bonus to Dragons, which also applies to your to hit Bonus thanks to Solitary Hunter Variant. Assuming a Strength of 20 by level 7 with a +1 Bane weapon that gives you a +21 to hit dragons vs an AC of 24 on the dragon. You could also take one of the several ranger weapon style ACFs for something like Power attack instead of Two-weapon fighting, or you could take the wild shape one for +10ft to movement speed and the ability to wildshape.

I'd pick up a +1 dragon bane weapon of your choice(greatsword maybe?)

A few potions of Resist Energy Fire with a CL high enough for a resistance of 30 (or have someone cast this on you and it would be much cheaper) (could also use 1st level ranger spell for a resist energy of 10 to save money)

+1 Mithril Chain Shirt(although with a DR 12/silver, that will absorb most of the damage)

A back up ranged weapon in case it tries to run away, and/or a few potions of Fly. Also I would try to fight it in a cave or a place where it cannot easily fly away.

Character also fits thematically as a Draconic/Were-Dragon follower of Bahamut with a focus on hunting Evil Dragons.

You could also go mystic ranger instead, but your FE bonus would be 2 points lower and you could not take solitary hunter variant, but you would have more spells/higher caster level for casting your own Resistances/Protection from Energy.

[Nifft]

Page 134 of the DMG has a whole subheading on changing alignment.

https://i.imgur.com/iQoD1Bl.png Cool, thanks for quoting that. It looks like those all advise the DM about how to decide when and if a PC's alignment changes.

It's even got a positive and explicit denial of player control, and confirms that the DM is in control of PC alignment changes.

So, the DMG and the PHB seem to agree about this. I like the lack of dysfunction.

If only all alignment disputes were so easily settled...



The Atonement spell says so.

Hmm, I guess that normally it's up to players to perform actions which lead to an alignment change, but an actual change happens only when and if the DM decides that it does (per the DMG and PHB).

I think that's how we can make the spell text compatible with the other related rules in the game.

Is there another compatible interpretation?

[Venger]

Some people debate on what single-handedly means such as can your friends casts buffs on you before you go in to engage the creature? Can you use potions that you bought that someone else made? For this I will at least assume you can use potions. Also didn't see a point buy anywhere or if dragon magazine content/web content was okay (I might have missed it) (I also consider LA-buyoff to be non-cheesy, and definitely way less cheesy than shivering touching dragons)
No debate necessary. Other characters giving you free buffs ≠ you doing it alone.

You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.

What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.

[Nifft]

You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.

Hmm, so what about the Leadership feat?

Are you doing it "alone" if you've paid a mechanical slot for an ally?

(I guess Familiars would also follow that ruling, whichever way it goes, but most Lawful Good full-BAB classes don't get one.)

[Fouredged Sword]

No debate necessary. Other characters giving you free buffs ≠ you doing it alone.

You buying potions, paying for spellcasting, etc = you doing it alone. those things are gear. you're using the resources allocated to someone of your level. people aren't just giving you free stuff, or else you could just have a wizard kill the dragon for you while you stood in the corner and made paninis.

What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.

Shivering touch is unreliable. A red dragon will almost assuredly seek out defenses VS cold damage and may be totally immune via aquired cold subtype.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hilarious!

Well, like your PC, at least you tried.

But being allowed to try isn't the same as being able to succeed, so just as you've tried to argue yet failed to cite a rule, so also your PC has tried yet failed to re-align.

Thanks for trying.
You're kind of an *******, aren't you?

You asked for a citation on player agency. I gave you one. Remember that we're talking about this:


Well, then by the rules you've cited, there's no problem with that at all. You're tooling around, killing dragons' kids, skin a red dragon and say "man, I wish I had a boss who would set me up with more dragons to kill instead of having to do all the legwork myself" and then become lawful and work for bahamut, entering the class, and then once you're in, you go all bad cop and regain a nonlawful alignment so your pounce works. you can do all that through rp if you want.

This is all reconstucted from someone who made it through. It's not the projected future of someone looking to enter Vassal of Bahamut in an actual game (if that were the case, we'd be talking about table manners and cheese, not RAW); it's the history of someone who did enter Vassal of Bahamut, and who was apparently really into Law for a brief period. So what if it doesn't work for nine out of ten people? The citation provides that you can try to be "really LG" (or CG), do all the right things, worship all the right people, and you'll end up being LG (or CG) at some point; that's all it takes for this backstory to work.

[Thurbane]

Just as an FYI, a character could start out as an NG Barbarian to pick up Lion Totem (pounce). If, at some point prior to attaining level 8, he performs consistently lawful actions, there's no real reason he couldn't change to LG over the course of 6 or so levels. You could simply say that once the Barbarian gets a taste of life in civilized lands, his attitude to authority and laws starts to change.

He would retain pounce, even once LG.


Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).[/B]

...you traded away fast movement for pounce. You lose the ability to rage, but if you only take one level of Barbarian to get pounce, then move on to another full BAB class (possibly even Barb 1/Fighter 6 for more feats), all you are losing is rage 1/day, and the aiblity to take any more Barb levels.

[Venger]

Hmm, so what about the Leadership feat?

Are you doing it "alone" if you've paid a mechanical slot for an ally?

(I guess Familiars would also follow that ruling, whichever way it goes, but most Lawful Good full-BAB classes don't get one.)
Everyone in the thread seems to understand a paladin using his special mount would count as doing it alone. If we're being even remotely consistent about this, then leadership, dragon cohort, etc would count as doing it alone too since you're using the resources your character is allocated and not just getting stuff for free. Again, since earlier on, i had thought this was to be built under iron chef rules, I didn't mention leadership, but since it's been made clear that's not the case, leadership is certainly another valid approach.


Shivering touch is unreliable. A red dragon will almost assuredly seek out defenses VS cold damage and may be totally immune via aquired cold subtype.

We've been assuming til this point that we're using an out of the book, unoptimized juvenile red from the monster manual, so our guy has at least some kind of chance. If the dragon is arbitrarily immune to everything somehow (he has no ability to do that to himself via spells) then nothing we say will work.


Just as an FYI, a character could start out as an NG Barbarian to pick up Lion Totem (pounce). If, at some point prior to attaining level 8, he performs consistently lawful actions, there's no real reason he couldn't change to LG over the course of 6 or so levels. You could simply say that once the Barbarian gets a taste of life in civilized lands, his attitude to authority and laws starts to change.

He would retain pounce, even once LG.

...you traded away fast movement for pounce. You lose the ability to rage, but if you only take one level of Barbarian to get pounce, then move on to another full BAB class (possibly even Barb 1/Fighter 6 for more feats), all you are losing is rage 1/day, and the aiblity to take any more Barb levels.
Oh, duh, I forgot you didn't lose pounce.
In that case, just transform to LG normally, and take ferocity and you won't lose anything.

[Goaty14]

You can downgrade a standard to a move (PHB 138), and a standard to a swift (through Ready, at the very least), just not a move to a swift.

Couldn't you get another swift through another full-round with a Belt of Battle? Though at that point you could just full attack twice and be done with it.


For the duration problem on wraithstrike: it is quite possible to Extend the spell, although that does require a custom magic item, or some kind of Sudden metamagic that works on potions and doesn't take an action (is there a power component that works with potions?).

Metamagic Wand Grip?

[Venger]

Couldn't you get another swift through another full-round with a Belt of Battle? Though at that point you could just full attack twice and be done with it.
Yeah, there is that


Metamagic Wand Grip?

Also an option, though as I said, it'd require your guy to have extend spell, which might help you qualify for VoB, but will suck for the rest of your career

[Kelb_Panthera]

What is it with people saying shivering touch is cheesy? What else exactly is that spell supposed to do? It's not shivering touch's fault that dragons are badly designed, weak monsters.

It's not so much cheesy as it is remarkably poorly written. The favoured interpretation is that you can do 3d6 dex damage with a touch as many times as you like for the duration. This isn't -at all- the clear or only valid interpretation.

It could be interpreted that you get one touch and must deliver it within the duration. It could be interpreted that the damage is supposed to be a penalty that lasts for the duration.

It's just not a well written spell.

[Troacctid]

It's not so much cheesy as it is remarkably poorly written. The favoured interpretation is that you can do 3d6 dex damage with a touch as many times as you like for the duration. This isn't -at all- the clear or only valid interpretation.

It could be interpreted that you get one touch and must deliver it within the duration. It could be interpreted that the damage is supposed to be a penalty that lasts for the duration.

It's just not a well written spell.
Any and all of those interpretations works fine for our purposes.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.

My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.

Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.

You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).

[Venger]

Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.
What do you mean by "fair fight?"



My suggestion is to go the coup d'grace route. Go Shooting Star Ranger, favored enemy dragon, get your Move Silently skill through the roof, get Darkstalker, get Detect Magic from a Silent source, Spellcraft high enough that you can detect and identify any Alarm spell the Dragon might have cast.

That's good. Take trap expert for trapfinding if you're going to do detecting on your own. Since you're stuck with a Good alignment, grab nemesis



Go in praying to your god that this dragon doesn't have a Mama, Papa, Big brother/sister taking care of him. Hope that the Dragon is asleep (if it isn't, hide until it comes back and sleeps). Hit it with a +1 dragonbane heavy pick forcing a Fort save DC ((2d4+3+4)*4+2d6) (average of 55) which means it only passes on a Nat 20.

You might want a long-living race that doesn't need to sleep (Elf or Warforged, basically).

Honestly, if your gm's so permissive that he lets you kill an enemy 3 levels above your cr as he stupidly goes to sleep unprotected, then you may as well just say "I killed a red dragon kid by giving him a pretzel and he choked on the pretzel and died" as part of your backstory to enter vassal of bahamut.

[Thurbane]

Delbert the Dragon Stabber

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/8f/Sniperarrowstabtauntkill.PNG/250px-Sniperarrowstabtauntkill.PNG

Ranger 2/Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Fighter 4

H Sacred Vow
1 Vow of Obedience
B Track
B Rapid Shot* (or TWF if you plan to stick in light armor; that may free up an extra flighter feat)
3 Bind Vestige
6 Improved Bind Vestige
F1 Improved Initiative
F2 Two-weapon Fighting
F4 Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Max ranks in Hide, Move Silently (not enough feat slots to pick up Darkstalker, unless you give up on the vestige feats). Also no room for Able Learner, so you’ll be grabbing some cross class ranks.

Favoured enemy Dragon (duh).

Stabbing with two Arrows of Dragon Slaying. Greater slaying arrows 4057gp each; lesser 2282gp each. -4 attack penalty for using arrows as melee weapons.

ECL 7 character has around 19,000 gp.

(Bane Blind armor is +15,000gp: this makes it unlikely to have this armor property and be able to afford more than one slaying arrow. If not, it would be very useful).

Boots of Elvenkind/Cloak of Elvenkind or similar for sneaking.

If you get the surprise round, you get 4 attacks on a charge. If any hit, dragon is making a DC 23 (or 20) fort save with a +12 bonus (inclusive of Focalor penalty). Each successful hit is a 50% (or 35%) chance of slaying the dragon outright.

If you get the surprise round, you’re quite likely to beat the beast on initiative for the second round, meaning another 4 attacks. Load up on extra arrows of slaying if WBL permits.

It’s pretty stupid/cheesy, and the build won’t be great for VoB (or much else) anyway, but it might work.

The biggest issue is getting a surprise round with the dragon on the ground…

[Zaq]

I love the idea, Thurbane, but I don't think that using arrows as improvised melee weapons gets around the "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed" clause on PHB pg. 114. Regardless of what range you're at, either you're hitting or you're missing, and the rules are black-and-white about what happens to an arrow when you hit with it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any and all of those interpretations works fine for our purposes.

Of the three, only the favoured interpretation guarantees victory. The first alternate is uncomfortably close to even odds and the last can't drop the dragon at all since penalties can't reduce a score to less than 1.

[Thurbane]

I love the idea, Thurbane, but I don't think that using arrows as improvised melee weapons gets around the "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed" clause on PHB pg. 114. Regardless of what range you're at, either you're hitting or you're missing, and the rules are black-and-white about what happens to an arrow when you hit with it.

Oh absolutely, agree with that, but you only need one failed save to do the job.

Pump as much spare WBL into extra arrows as you can.

Like I said, that build relies on a fair bit of luck to get the job done.

[Troacctid]

Of the three, only the favoured interpretation guarantees victory. The first alternate is uncomfortably close to even odds and the last can't drop the dragon at all since penalties can't reduce a score to less than 1.
Nothing in the spell suggests that the ability damage from the spell can't reduce the target's Dexterity score below 1. I don't know of any general rule to that effect either.

And the second interpretation just needs you to do it twice, which isn't that tall of an order.

[Nifft]

So far we've seen alignment shenanigan attempts, and spell wording shenanigan attempts. But have we attempted to apply shenanigans to the PrC special prerequisite itself?

We have not.

Therefore, I will now attempt to do so.


Special: The character must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon

This might mean: "You must slay a juvenile (or older) red dragon using only one hand."

Therefore you can have all the help you want, you just can't use TWF nor can you use a 2-handed weapon. Flurry of Blows might be okay if you can convince your DM that you're only using one hand. If you have two claws, you can only use one of them.

Spells which can be cast using only one hand are perfectly acceptable.


Enter as a Paladin 7 with a one-handed sword and a shield and a full party behind you.

[Anthrowhale]

Honestly, I think it's 100% impossible to win a fair fight vs the dragon.

The PAO approach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23163268&postcount=55) seems "fair", and I do not see any flaws.

[Goaty14]

The PAO approach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23163268&postcount=55) seems "fair", and I do not see any flaws.

Somebody else PAO'ed you into the horned devil, so unless the same build also manages a +34 UMD and the money to buy two scrolls, I'm not so sure you did it yourself.

[heavyfuel]

What do you mean by "fair fight?"

Honestly, if your gm's so permissive that he lets you kill an enemy 3 levels above your cr as he stupidly goes to sleep unprotected, then you may as well just say "I killed a red dragon kid by giving him a pretzel and he choked on the pretzel and died" as part of your backstory to enter vassal of bahamut.

I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.

[InvisibleBison]

Special: The character must have single-handedly slain a juvenile (or older) red dragon

The key word here is "slain". It doesn't say "defeated" or "fought and slain" or anything of that nature. You can bring as many allies as you want, so long as none of them do anything that could kill the dragon. In fact, you don't even have to participate in the fight - after your allies knock it out, you can coup-de-grace it at your leisure.

[Venger]

Somebody else PAO'ed you into the horned devil, so unless the same build also manages a +34 UMD and the money to buy two scrolls, I'm not so sure you did it yourself.
Spellcasting is a service you can buy, like swords or armor. Having a spellcaster zap you twice, (assuming it falls in your wbl) is just fine.


I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.

As far as internally consistent, logical in-universe fluff, no, of course dragons shouldn't leave their children home alone since a bunch of thugs like prospective vassals of bahamut are tooling around committing hate crimes on them, but like you said, if you do that, you're telling the pc that through fiat, he just can't do this at all.

Why don't we put these two things together?

Pay some 1hd commoner bum on the street, pao him into a red dragon, tell him you'll give him some money if he lets you kill and rez him, do that, and enjoy 10 levels of vassal of bahamut.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mean the idea that you can just waltz to the cave and challenge it to a 1v1. This dragon shouldn't ever roll initiative, aka, not a fair fight.

It's not about being permissive. Honestly, how many defenses can a lv 3 sorcerer have? I do, however, think that this dragon shouldn't even be alone in the first place since it's basically a teenager. It should have a family protecting it from evilgooddoers. Problem is if we go down this road, there's no way the Player can ever hope to achieve the dream of entering this PrC at lv 8.

Draconomicon 52; red wyrmlings are often left to fend for themselves. For a juvenile to be unattended when he's (ostensibly) more dangerous than the vast majority of creatures in a region, including levelled humanoids, makes perfect sense.

[Nifft]

Draconomicon 52; red wyrmlings are often left to fend for themselves. For a juvenile to be unattended when he's (ostensibly) more dangerous than the vast majority of creatures in a region, including levelled humanoids, makes perfect sense.

Dragon: "I stayed awake until you hatched, okay? Now I'm done and it's time for a nap decade. Don't be here when I wake up."

[Venger]

Read: red dragons' parents are often murdered by Good-aligned adventurers

[Kelb_Panthera]

Read: red dragons' parents are often murdered by Good-aligned adventurers

If you read the full section, that's really not the implication at all. Reds don't like anyone, including each other. If it weren't for the drive to reproduce, I doubt they'd have any interaction with their own kind that wasn't the same robbery and murder they visit on "lesser" beings.

Nifft's little skit seems right on the money, really.

[Thurbane]

Are variant rules on the table?


VARIANT: INSTANT KILL
When you or a player rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, a critical roll is made to see if a critical hit is scored. If that critical roll is also a 20, that’s considered a threat for an instant kill. Now a third roll, an instant kill roll, is made. If that roll scores a hit on the target in question (just like a normal critical roll after a threat), the target is instantly slain. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to instant kills.
The instant kill variant only applies to natural 20s, regardless of the threat range for a combatant or weapon. (Otherwise weapons, feats, and magical powers that improve threat ranges would be much more powerful than they are intended to be.)
The instant kill variant makes a game more lethal and combat more random. In any contest, an increase in randomness improves the odds for the underdog. Since the PCs win most fights, a rule that makes combat more random hurts the PCs more than it hurts their enemies.

[Venger]

Interesting idea. Assuming we can get 3 immediate actions in a turn somehow (belts of battle are unfortunately a swift, so we'd be robbing peter to pay paul), surge of fortune unfortunately stipulates crit threats must be rolled normally. Is there another way to guarantee a 20 on an attack roll?

[Lans]

What if we used an anthropomorphic Baleen whale with what ever template that can be bought or bought offed?

[Nifft]

Interesting idea. Assuming we can get 3 immediate actions in a turn somehow, surge of fortune unfortunately stipulates crit threats must be rolled normally. Is there another way to guarantee a 20 on an attack roll?

Get a cohort who can rewind time by one round, and attack once (from your perspective; cohort's perspective may vary).

EDIT:

What if we used an anthropomorphic Baleen whale with what ever template that can be bought or bought offed?

Then the red dragon would be named Ish'mael'ix and we'd be extra-screwed.

[Venger]

What if we used an anthropomorphic Baleen whale with what ever template that can be bought or bought offed?
What does that contribute? I feel like I'm missing something

Get a cohort who can rewind time by one round, and attack once (from your perspective; cohort's perspective may vary).

With what, like forced dream or something? Is there an effect that does this besides teleport through time? Your cohort won't be that strong at lvl 7

[Nifft]

With what, like forced dream or something? Is there an effect that does this besides teleport through time? Your cohort won't be that strong at lvl 7

Forced Dream is a level 3 power so a level 5 Psion could have it.

The idea is that the cohort manifests forced dream and then if you don't perform sufficiently, the cohort triggers a re-wind and re-manifests forced dream.

This can continue to recur as long as your cohort has PP, which ballpark might be around 10 times before optimization.

[Venger]

Forced Dream is a level 3 power so a level 5 Psion could have it.

The idea is that the cohort manifests forced dream and then if you don't perform sufficiently, the cohort triggers a re-wind and re-manifests forced dream.

This can continue to recur as long as your cohort has PP, which ballpark might be around 10 times before optimization.

Yes, I'm aware.

But forced dream doesn't help you get 3 20s in a row to use the instant kill variant. You'd be taken back before you rolled your first one. I meant teleport through time is beyond the grasp of a 5th level character. Am I missing something about how it would help? Or do you just mean use a cohort with forced dream for one of the other methods to make sure you win init or what have you?

[Nifft]

Or do you just mean use a cohort with forced dream for one of the other methods to make sure you win init or what have you? It won't help you win initiative, but it could help with any of the "lucky roll" builds, including stuff like the Slaying Arrow Stabber.

[Thurbane]

Is there another way to guarantee a 20 on an attack roll?

Well, not exactly; but Better Lucky than Good feat allows you to turn a natural 1 into a natural 20 on an attack roll by expending a luck re-roll. It's no automatic 20, but it doubles your chances of getting one by rolling.

[Nifft]

Well, not exactly; but Better Lucky than Good feat allows you to turn a natural 1 into a natural 20 on an attack roll by expending a luck re-roll. It's no automatic 20, but it doubles your chances of getting one by rolling.

That plus ten cohort rerolls does get you to an expected value of one (un)natural 20.

Better odds if you're attacking more than once per round.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That plus ten cohort rerolls does get you to an expected value of one (un)natural 20.

Better odds if you're attacking more than once per round.

It really is too bad there's no way to sell a cohort being -at least- equally responsible for the dragon's death (barring sheer dumb luck) as having defeated it single-handedly.

Even a mount or animal companion is pushing it, IMO. They're not people though so it's probably alright.

[Anthrowhale]

Somebody else PAO'ed you into the horned devil, so unless the same build also manages a +34 UMD and the money to buy two scrolls, I'm not so sure you did it yourself.

As Venger said, this is fully paid for using routine spellcasting services (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). I don't see anything in the OP saying that you must make your own items or spells from scratch.

Furthermore, only 1 casting is required as long as we have Int 14 (Same Kingdom, same Class, Same Int).

[Piggy Knowles]

It’s easily as cheesy as shivering touch or PAO abuse or any of the other shenanigans, but there IS a core item well within WBL at 7th-level that should do the trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)...

[Fizban]

Dragons are immune to stunning unless the DM rules "treat as" !=, cursed items aren't necessarily purchasable, and you'd need to be immune to the dust yourself.

Regarding mounts: a mount of animal intelligence is generally considered a tool (albeit a fine, living tool), so a horse or hippogriff ought to count as single-handed. An intelligent mount might be more questionable, but when it's a major paladin class feature, penalizing them for using it would be bogus (and you can bet no-one would say summoner wizard can't win a fight "single-handed.")

For those wanting to tank it, I think there was a dwarf subrace that got +4 AC against dragons. Then stack on Dragon Hunter and maybe Dragon Hunter Defense for +2 AC, +5 saves, and evasion (but the Dragonfoe line is terrible). If you can bait the dragon into make a dive attack at you can get the DM to rule that even a normal dive triggers Overhead Thrust, that'd be a x3 AoO with bonus to hit, which would be in addition to the the x2 readied polearm.

[Saintheart]

It’s easily as cheesy as shivering touch or PAO abuse or any of the other shenanigans, but there IS a core item well within WBL at 7th-level that should do the trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)...

Similarly cheesy albeit not core and 3.0: Eggshell Grenade (Dust) which blinds target for 1d4 rounds and doesn't contain a saving throw on its RAW.

[Zaq]

Dragons are immune to stunning unless the DM rules "treat as" !=, cursed items aren't necessarily purchasable, and you'd need to be immune to the dust yourself.

Regarding mounts: a mount of animal intelligence is generally considered a tool (albeit a fine, living tool), so a horse or hippogriff ought to count as single-handed. An intelligent mount might be more questionable, but when it's a major paladin class feature, penalizing them for using it would be bogus (and you can bet no-one would say summoner wizard can't win a fight "single-handed.")

Where does it say that dragons can’t be stunned? I see immunity to sleep and paralysis, but stunned and paralyzed are very different conditions.

[Fizban]

In the part where I'm apparently just wrong. Probably got mixed up between re-reading Draconic Heritage stuff and looking up immunities on other things.

[Piggy Knowles]

It’s explicitly not stunned anyhow, it’s “disabled by choking,” and dragons do breathe. There are rules for crafting the dust as well and it has fairly easy reqs, so even if it’s not available in your local MagicMart, you should be able to commission its construction. Immunity to the dust can be obtained via lack of breathing yourself (warforged for example) or by delivering the dust from afar (unseen servant, summoned creature, some sort of bomb delivery method, etc).

Of course, the dust makes shivering touch seem fair and balanced, so you know, not recommended for actual games with friends.

[heavyfuel]

Draconomicon 52; red wyrmlings are often left to fend for themselves.


If you read the full section, that's really not the implication at all. Reds don't like anyone, including each other. If it weren't for the drive to reproduce, I doubt they'd have any interaction with their own kind that wasn't the same robbery and murder they visit on "lesser" beings.

The "Habits" parts of the Draconomicon might as well be part of the Stupid RAW thread. A Red Wyrmling is about as strong as a veteran soldier, it's hardly a threat to anyone in your typical D&D scenario with adventurers left and right. Hell, a group of commoners can kill it with just crossbows. The idea that a Wyrmling can be eating human and elf children for 5 years before anyone decides to go do something about it is ludicrous. There shouldn't be a single Red Dragon alive after the inevitable genocide of all wyrmlings who were left to their own devices.


Dragon: "I stayed awake until you hatched, okay? Now I'm done and it's time for a nap decade. Don't be here when I wake up."

And hey, isn't a decade-long nap just the perfect time for that CdG I was talking about?

[Fouredged Sword]

A wyrmling red dragon is very likely the fastest thing in whatever area it is, period.

If it isn't arrogant and stupid and relied on ambush and other tactics, it CAN very easily hunt human commoners.

With a very fast fly speed and very good night vision it hunts at night. A barn suddenly catches fire in the middle of the night. Amid the cries of burning livestock the whole town rushes out to extinguish the blaze. Maybe the wyrmling feeds on chickens while the town panics, or maybe it snatches a baby.

A commoner wanders too far into the woods. A red shape leaps out of the shadows and mauls him dead.

A dragon should never fight groups of humans. A dragon should never NEED to fight a group. He has a 100+ fly speed. He just flies in another direction.

Yes, many wyrmling red dragons get killed. This is why there are so few adult dragons around. To say they ALL die assumes that they are all fatally stupid. It has 7HD and a 150ft fly speed. It has excellent senses and natural weapons and armor. It is gonna grow a HD about every 2 years.

Red dragon wyrmlings are nasty babies to get in a fight with.

[Nifft]

A dragon should never fight groups of humans. A dragon should never NEED to fight a group. He has a 100+ fly speed. He just flies in another direction. Additionally, the breath weapon can deal 2d10 fire damage in a 30 ft. cone, which seems like it would be quite effective against lynch-mob type groups and even better-organized soldiers.

Red wyrmlings are scary.

[Anthrowhale]

Immunity to the dust can be obtained via lack of breathing yourself (warforged for example) or by delivering the dust from afar (unseen servant, summoned creature, some sort of bomb delivery method, etc).

Or, you could use something like Warblade 1/Duskblade 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Crusader 1/Pious Templar 1 so mettle + a high fortitude save makes you mostly immune.