This is why you have to be careful while creating houserules/homebrew

[Greywander]

DawnforgedCast released a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dACNp6Nvjoo) today talking about Eldritch Blast and how to beef up other cantrips with invocations to make them competitive with EB. I've already done a few things like this, such as making a feat that offers invocations boosting non-warlock cantrips. Here's a couple of examples:

Dead of Winter. Whenever you cast ray of frost, you may add your Intelligence or Charisma modifier to the damage dealt, and an area with a 5 foot radius around your target is chilled with frost, becoming difficult terrain until the start of your next turn. If you target a flying creature with ray of frost, you instead sap the thermals keeping them aloft, causing them to instantly drop 10 feet.
Maddening Words. When you cast vicious mockery, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt. Additionally, when you use vicious mockery to give a creature disadvantage on an attack, and that creature misses with that attack, you may use your reaction to make that attack strike another creature of your choice within range.

After watching DawnforgeCast's video, it gave me the idea of removing the "add ability score modifier to damage" from each of these and putting it in one place for all cantrips, or, more specifically, just making Agonizing Blast apply to all damage cantrips.

Okay, not too bad so far. EB still does better, since you can apply it separately to each beam.

Then I thought it was a good idea to also use their idea of adapting Eldritch Spear to double the range of all damage cantrips.

Again, that's not too bad, it's kind of like Spell Sniper but without some of the other benefits.

They also had another invocation, specifically meant for Celestial warlocks, that made Sacred Flame deal half damage if the target succeeds on its save. So why not take that and make it a general invocation for all save-or-damage cantrips?

'Kay, so far nothing seems unbalanced. At least, not individually. But what happens when we start putting these together?

Okay, so let's say Sacred Flame adds CHA mod to damage and does half damage on a passed save. Still seems like it might do less damage than EB, so that doesn't seem too unbalanced. And extending the range? How could that possibly make things unbalan-

Thunderclap. Sword Burst. Word of Radiance.

Since Agonizing Blast adds CHA mod to each beam of EB, we can assume a homebrewed version that applied to all cantrips would work the same way for a spell like Thunderclap. The difference is, Thunderclap et al do full damage (4d6) to each target, while EB splits the damage between each beam (1d10 per beam). And you get to do half damage on a passed save. If we're being generous, you might be able to catch two or three targets within range in each fight, but if you let yourself get surrounded then you can hit up to 8 creatures.

I'm sorry, did I say 8? I meant 20. Because the range has now been double from 5 feet to 10 feet. And it's much more likely that you'll be able to catch at least two enemies within the area of effect. You are now a blender of death on the battlefield.

This is a perfect example of the phrase, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." Each of these individually isn't too powerful, but combined together on a specific group of cantrips and you get something you probably didn't intend.

It's worth noting that many of the features that allow you to add damage to a cantrip specifically say you can only add the bonus damage to one damage roll, probably precisely so spells like Thunderclap don't get out of hand.

To fix this, what I'm thinking is to make the "add CHA mod to damage" only apply to attack roll cantrips (Thunderclap et al don't use attack rolls), and combine it with the "half damage on a passed save" into a single invocation. That way, one invocation gives you a damage boost to both attack roll and saving throw cantrips, albeit in different ways, and doesn't let you combine both effects on a single spell. Perhaps I should also make the "half damage on passed save" only apply to one target per turn.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this little ramble on the pitfalls of homebrew.

[Jerrykhor]

From what I've seen, DawnforgedCast are good at recognising problems, but terrible at fixing them. They even get their facts wrong sometimes (like suggesting the Quicken metamagic on buffing Truestrike).

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure I understand the intent. Boosting cantrips has far more consequences than that (like dramaticaly increase casters' at-will damage, which is NOT their job). Trying to make other cantrips competitive with Eldritch Blast is inherently going to **** a good share of the game.

So... why do that change in the first place?

[Greywander]

I've watched a few of their videos, but I find something about his tone a bit off putting. Still, every so often a video pops up in my recommended from someone I don't view regularly, but the particular topic seems interesting, so I watch it.

Personally, it seems like the general idea is fine. As long as we can say that a cantrip is weaker than Eldritch Blast (for the same number of resources e.g. invocations), I don't think we're going to break anything. You could literally apply all of the EB invocations to Fire Bolt verbatim, and it would still be not as good as EB (due to only adding CHA mod once). The danger is letting effects stack in a way that allows their effects to multiply (e.g. deal extra damage on each attack + make more attacks).

[Greywander]

I'm not sure I understand the intent. Boosting cantrips has far more consequences than that (like dramaticaly increase casters' at-will damage, which is NOT their job). Trying to make other cantrips competitive with Eldritch Blast is inherently going to **** a good share of the game.

So... why do that change in the first place?
I actually agree with you here. I find it much more enjoyable to play a "controller" wizard or a support cleric than blast sorcerer. Given that magic often lets you do things that you couldn't do through mundane skill, it makes sense to use those powers in a more creative manner than "I hit the thing, but with fire."

That said, why shouldn't a damage oriented build be an option for casters? Especially warlocks, which get far fewer spell slots to work with. Not all warlocks are going to take EB invocations, but they do have the option. All I'm thinking is that I'd to have other options besides EB if I wanted a more effective damage dealing caster.

Plus, you know, I'm currently in a two-person party, and we're both playing casters.

[Unoriginal]

That said, why shouldn't a damage oriented build be an option for casters?

...there are TONS of options for damage-oriented caster builds.

What there isn't is a lot of *at will* damage oriented caster builds. Because at-will damage is something that the martials do, along with the warlocks, thanks to Eldritch Blast.



Especially warlocks, which get far fewer spell slots to work with.

Warlocks do fine in at-will damage builds. Because of Eldritch Blast.

Also their spell slots recharge on short rests.



Not all warlocks are going to take EB invocations, but they do have the option.

And you don't need EB invocations to be a good at will damage dealer as a Warlock.



All I'm thinking is that I'd to have other options besides EB if I wanted a more effective damage dealing caster.

Or you could use Fireball or Thunderwave or any of the other effective damage dealing spells.

Giving more power to some classes with no cost is not going to make the game better.



Plus, you know, I'm currently in a two-person party, and we're both playing casters.

That's a different issue. You and the other player made a choice, and there is consequences to it. The solution isn't "how do we avoid the consequences via houserules?" but "how do we make something great by accepting the good and the bad of the situation?"

IMO I would recommend hiring mercenaries.

[Greywander]

...there are TONS of options for damage-oriented caster builds.

What there isn't is a lot of *at will* damage oriented caster builds. Because at-will damage is something that the martials do, along with the warlocks, thanks to Eldritch Blast.
I get what you're saying, and I agree with you, but I feel like you might be missing the point of what I'm saying.

RAW, any class can dip two levels into warlock for Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. You can even use your other invocation to pick up your choice of Eldritch Spear, Repelling Blast, Grasp of Hadar, or Lance of Lethargy. Anyone can do this. You can argue that you shouldn't do this, or that it's bad game design that the rules allow you to do this, but the fact remains that the rules do allow this.

So, given that the rules allow it, if you decide to go that route, why Eldritch Blast? Why not a different cantrip? Chill Touch is on the warlock spell list, as is Poison Spray. Fire Bolt is almost identical to Eldritch Blast, yet would be objectively worse except in the edge case of fighting a troll, or just really needing to set something on fire. Damage wise, all other options are objectively worse than EB, thanks to EB's beam-splitting allowing it to quadruple up on Agonizing Blast.

What's more, this isn't the only way to gain such abilities. Evocation wizard lets you add your INT mod to all evocation spells, not just cantrips. It also let's your damage cantrips deal half damage on a successful save. Some cleric subclasses also add WIS mod to cantrip damage.

I get that just handing out blanket boosts to cantrips for free would be a terrible idea. But if you're going to jump through the hoops necessary to get Eldritch + Agonizing Blast, why not allow different options, especially if they end up dealing less damage than EB would anyway? I'm not really understanding the resistance to this idea. You seem to be opposed to casters doing high at-will damage, but Eldritch Blast would still do higher at-will damage than literally any other cantrip. So from my perspective, I'm not really talking about doing more damage; I have EB for that. I'm talking about having more options.

(What's ironic is that I was actually leaning toward getting Eyes of the Runekeeper or Misty Visions instead of Agonizing Blast, since I'm only dipping a few levels into warlock and want to get my pact invocation. I don't have enough invocations slots to make EB interesting. But homebrew is fun, and my other party member might be going significantly deeper into warlock.)


IMO I would recommend hiring mercenaries.
We've managed to attract a few NPC tag-alongs, though I don't know how long they'll hang around. Mercs, or minions, would certainly be an option.

[MrStabby]

@Greywander - I am a bit confused: you seem to be talking about boosting only warlock cantrips that are not EB. At the top you said: "I've already done a few things like this, such as making a feat that offers invocations boosting non-warlock cantrips". A bit of a different message.

Boosting non EB cantrips is probably fine - even stacking a lot of the things you mention you get results worse than eldritch blast, as long as you make the benefits apply to one specific cantrip not all of them. And after all if it is a feat then there is a cost that is being paid for this. On the other hand if you make these kind of abilities more freely available to other classes then they can have both the Warlocks great at-will damage and the flexibility of the spellcasting feature which is a bit over the top.

[Greywander]

@Greywander - I am a bit confused: you seem to be talking about boosting only warlock cantrips that are not EB. At the top you said: "I've already done a few things like this, such as making a feat that offers invocations boosting non-warlock cantrips". A bit of a different message.
Ah, okay. This is a fair point. If it costs you a feat instead of a level dip, then you don't have to lose out on class progression. It might still be balanced, but it does change the dynamic. And the reason for boosting non-warlock cantrips is, again, if you're going to make that two level dip (or get the feat, I guess), it would be nice to have other options besides Eldritch Blast. But it's just strange that other warlock cantrips don't already get some kind of boost from invocations.


as long as you make the benefits apply to one specific cantrip not all of them.
Well, what I was thinking was that Agonizing Blast would apply to all cantrips (although maybe add a clause that prevents doubling if you already add an ability score modifier to damage, say from cleric or wizard), but each cantrip would have its own invocation that extends or alters its utility, more in line with something like Repelling Blast or Lance of Lethargy. In the example above, Ray of Frost could be enhanced to create a 5 foot radius of difficult terrain around the target, but that would be a separate invocation from Agonizing Blast. You'd need to spend two invocations to get both of them.

[Unoriginal]

RAW, any class can dip two levels into warlock for Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. You can even use your other invocation to pick up your choice of Eldritch Spear, Repelling Blast, Grasp of Hadar, or Lance of Lethargy. Anyone can do this.

Anyone who meets the requirement for multiclassing into Warlock, and anyone who plays at a table that allows multiclassing, yes.



You can argue that you shouldn't do this, or that it's bad game design that the rules allow you to do this, but the fact remains that the rules do allow this.

Why would I argue that?




So, given that the rules allow it, if you decide to go that route, why Eldritch Blast? Why not a different cantrip? Chill Touch is on the warlock spell list, as is Poison Spray. Fire Bolt is almost identical to Eldritch Blast, yet would be objectively worse except in the edge case of fighting a troll, or just really needing to set something on fire. Damage wise, all other options are objectively worse than EB, thanks to EB's beam-splitting allowing it to quadruple up on Agonizing Blast.

Because Eldritch Blast is a better cantrip, and that's one of the advantages of the Warlock classs.

That's it. It's a conscious decision to make it a great feature for Warlocks.


Multiclassing into Warlock for Eldritch Blast is a possibility. But multiclassing has a cost.

You could argue anyone could add 1 level of Fighter to their build to get Action Surge, armor proficiency and Second Wind, but it has a cost too.




What's more, this isn't the only way to gain such abilities. Evocation wizard lets you add your INT mod to all evocation spells, not just cantrips. It also let's your damage cantrips deal half damage on a successful save. Some cleric subclasses also add WIS mod to cantrip damage.


Nice, so you did find other ways to have satisfying at-will damage as a caster. It seems you solved your own issue.




I get that just handing out blanket boosts to cantrips for free would be a terrible idea.


So you agree that this homebrew would cause a lot of problems, meaning that it shouldn't be done.



But if you're going to jump through the hoops necessary to get Eldritch + Agonizing Blast, why not allow different options, especially if they end up dealing less damage than EB would anyway?



You seem to be opposed to casters doing high at-will damage, but Eldritch Blast would still do higher at-will damage than literally any other cantrip. So from my perspective, I'm not really talking about doing more damage; I have EB for that. I'm talking about having more options.


Because giving more options is giving more power, by definition, and giving more power to people without added cost is a bad idea.

You've jumped through the hoops necessary to get Eldritch + Agonizing Blast, not to get Eldritch + Agonizing Blast + Better Firebolt + Better Chill Touch + Better Poison Spray. Even if you have to choose between those rather than have all of them, it's still more powerful than being limited to Eldritch + Agonizing Blast.

[Willie the Duck]

Ah, okay. This is a fair point. If it costs you a feat instead of a level dip, then you don't have to lose out on class progression. It might still be balanced, but it does change the dynamic. And the reason for boosting non-warlock cantrips is, again, if you're going to make that two level dip (or get the feat, I guess), it would be nice to have other options besides Eldritch Blast. But it's just strange that other warlock cantrips don't already get some kind of boost from invocations.

GW, I think there is still some confusion on what you are trying to accomplish. Are you talking mostly about ways to make cantrips other than EB better for warlocks? Is that your goal? Or are is the focus on increasing the output of non-EB cantrips in general (as in, for any class that uses them, and is willing to invest in making them better)?

Back to the original post -- yes, homebrewing requires careful thought, the ability to revise, and the ability to say 'no,' or else the entire endeavor collapses. Thunderclap is an example where the term range was used to define what should be considered the spell area-of-effect (3e had this problem in reverse with Detect City-bombs, I believe). I'm not especially convinced that doing 4d6+5 (max) to everyone in 10' is all that powerful, given how few spellcasters want to get surrounded by their enemies (I guess more candy for the hexblade), but this does highlight how strange rules interactions can stymie the enterprising house-ruler.

[Davrix]

Why do people always feel like EB is the end all be all thing when it comes to cantrips. Yes on paper it has the highest damage potential but so does martial builds that use sharpshooter and GWM. Its just a thing. They have limitations in other areas and even if you wanted to dip 2 levels to pick up the cantrip and AB its still coming at a high cost to have that perk. The other cantrips do not need to be brought up to snuff with EB but if the Sorc or the wizard is jealous of the EB damage by a warlock, your playing your classes wrong.

[Unoriginal]

Why do people always feel like EB is the end all be all thing when it comes to cantrips. Yes on paper it has the highest damage potential but so does martial builds that use sharpshooter and GWM. Its just a thing. They have limitations in other areas and even if you wanted to dip 2 levels to pick up the cantrip and AB its still coming at a high cost to have that perk. The other cantrips do not need to be brought up to snuff with EB but if the Sorc or the wizard is jealous of the EB damage by a warlock, your playing your classes wrong.

Oh sure, EB is the best *strictly damage cantrip*, it's not that amazing in the grand scheme of things. I don't think taking two levels of Warlock just for it and the associated invocation is really a worthwhile investment.

A wizard or sorcerer really has no reason to be envious of EB. Cantrips are just the thing that you fall back on when you need to conserve slots or because you're out of them, for those classes.



I think it's mostly the "must have everything covered" pride talking if they want it.

[Rebonack]

I've been fiddling with something similar and quickly recognized the exact issue the OP discovered. Think I may have found a nice solution for it, as well.


Agony: Your cantrips deal bonus damage equal to your Warlock level at the end of your turn. Divide this damage (rounded up) between each hit.

This is actually a slight damage nerf to Eldritch Blast at many levels, but it solves the issue of multi-hit and AoE cantrips nicely. I figure the added versatility of being able to draw from a larger cantrip pool is worth the minus one damage here and there. As an added bonus, it makes poaching Warlock levels FAR less attractive.

[Davrix]

I've been fiddling with something similar and quickly recognized the exact issue the OP discovered. Think I may have found a nice solution for it, as well.



This is actually a slight damage nerf to Eldritch Blast at many levels, but it solves the issue of multi-hit and AoE cantrips nicely. I figure the added versatility of being able to draw from a larger cantrip pool is worth the minus one damage here and there. As an added bonus, it makes poaching Warlock levels FAR less attractive.


I would ask again WHY? EB doesn't need a nerf, its not that game breaking and only gets remotely silly at the high end of the game(When so many other things do as well) EB and AB are there because warlock's get 2 spells for HALF OF THERE LEVELS. Its meant to give them a tool to keep up with all the other casters. People that crave it or demand other cantrips be brought up to its level are simply crying over something they don't need (or deserve with there own class benefits) Those that try to nerf EB because they feel its to good are unable to deal with the idea the warlock is a very unique class in its own right and shouldn't be treated by the same rules and logic as other casters. Hell even the Multi-Class chapter puts there spell progression away from every other caster in the game. So stop treating them as a normal spell caster and using that logic to try and define them.

[Unoriginal]

I would ask again WHY? EB doesn't need a nerf, its not that game breaking and only gets remotely silly at the high end of the game(When so many other things do as well) EB and AB are there because warlock's get 2 spells for HALF OF THERE LEVELS. Its meant to give them a tool to keep up with all the other casters. People that crave it or demand other cantrips be brought up to its level are simply crying over something they don't need (or deserve with there own class benefits) Those that try to nerf EB because they feel its to good are unable to deal with the idea the warlock is a very unique class in its own right and should be treated by the same rules and logic as other casters.

This is true.

[Rebonack]

I would ask again WHY? EB doesn't need a nerf,

You are correct Eldritch Blast doesn't need a nerf.

However, if we're going to make Agonizing Blast apply (mostly) equally to all cantrips, the way it functions needs to change. That's the subject of this topic, yes? And a simple mechanical ability (+Warlock level damage divided evenly between each hit) is preferable to an overly complicated, bloated one with specific exceptions to keep EB at exactly the same damage at all levels. Agony applying to all cantrips is a major jump in versatility, and versatility is power. So power needs to go down somewhere.


its not that game breaking

Of course it isn't. The goal of this change is to allow more fun. What's more fun? Dealing one extra damage with Eldritch Blast at a few select levels or the flexibility for a Warlock to focus on non-EB cantrips without gimping themselves? From the games I've run this house rule in thus far, the latter has massively outweighed the former. The purpose of the Agonizing Blast to Agony change is to keep EB at roughly the same power without making specific outliers (AoE and multi-hit cantrips) silly.


and only gets remotely silly at the high end of the game(When so many other things do as well) EB and AB are there because warlock's get 2 spells for HALF OF THERE LEVELS. Its meant to give them a tool to keep up with all the other casters.

Yes? Warlocks get options for really cool at-will tricks. This topic is exploring the idea of giving the Warlock a few more cool at-will tricks if they want to opt into them, but found that their first iteration has unintended consequences. So I pitched another solution that I've been play testing that avoids the pit-falls the TC has encountered.


People that crave it or demand other cantrips be brought up to its level are simply crying over something they don't need (or deserve with there own class benefits)

Crying? Don't deserve? The goal of this game is friends having some fun making a sword and sorcery story together. One of my players wanted to make a strongly lightning-themed Warlock, and that's pretty hard to do in any decent fashion with the options the PHB offers us. So I spent some extra time tweaking a few things so he can toss around Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure and Witchbolt instead of Eldritch Blast every single round. He's been pretty happy and no one else has felt sidelined, so all seems to be working just fine thus far.


Those that try to nerf EB because they feel its to good are unable to deal with the idea the warlock is a very unique class in its own right and should be treated by the same rules and logic as other casters. Hell even the Multi-Class chapter puts there spell progression away from every other caster in the game. So stop treating them as a normal spell caster and using that logic to try and define them.

You can rest assured that I won't be treating Warlocks like Wizards.

[Unoriginal]

You could also just have houseruled that his spells, including EB, dealt lightning damages.

[Davrix]

You are correct Eldritch Blast doesn't need a nerf.

(1)However, if we're going to make Agonizing Blast apply (mostly) equally to all cantrips, the way it functions needs to change. That's the subject of this topic, yes? And a simple mechanical ability (+Warlock level damage divided evenly between each hit) is preferable to an overly complicated, bloated one with specific exceptions to keep EB at exactly the same damage at all levels. Agony applying to all cantrips is a major jump in versatility, and versatility is power. So power needs to go down somewhere.


(2)Yes? Warlocks get options for really cool at-will tricks. This topic is exploring the idea of giving the Warlock a few more cool at-will tricks if they want to opt into them, but found that their first iteration has unintended consequences. So I pitched another solution that I've been play testing that avoids the pit-falls the TC has encountered.


(3)Crying? Don't deserve? The goal of this game is friends having some fun making a sword and sorcery story together. One of my players wanted to make a strongly lightning-themed Warlock, and that's pretty hard to do in any decent fashion with the options the PHB offers us. So I spent some extra time tweaking a few things so he can toss around Shocking Grasp and Lightning Lure and Witchbolt instead of Eldritch Blast every single round. He's been pretty happy and no one else has felt sidelined, so all seems to be working just fine thus far.

(1) - You should not be doing this as it takes away the point of what AB is trying to give the warlock. They don't get meta magic like Sorcerers. They don't get the massive utility and choice of wizards. Why are you trying to give other casters one of the perks of warlock when they have their own. They don't need it. By this logic I should be asking for the flexibility of Sorc points on my warlock so I can cast twin and quicken spell oh and be able to create spell slots.

(2) - The problem is and this isn't a beef with you specifically but when people decide to change a baseline class feature to bring things back into line with something they have changed or given to other classes, winds up half the time making the original class not feel so special anymore or being punished in some way for something they didn't get a choice over it. What you have proposed just makes it feel like a nerf to the warlock while the other classes reap more of the benefits.

(3) - How is this a hard thing, re-skin EB to lighting bolts that do lighting damage. If anything its a little bit of a nerf because there is more things with lighting resistance. Boom done, lighting warlock. Re-skin cloak of flys to maybe a lighting shield. Doing a theme based character does not require a re-write of the rules to accomplish.

[Unoriginal]

Lightning Armor of Agathys sounds rad as ****.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

When the single most common multiclass 'dip' is Warlock, specifically for the EB/Agonizing Blast combo, because it is mechanically superior to any other ranged option available to any character at any given level at any time, seems to indicate that EB, specifically EB + AB, is pretty darn powerful. Most notoriously are Sorcerer (to give them superior at-will DPS to pair with their Long Rest abilities and give them some staying power if the GM decides that Long Rests are going to be a rare thing), Rogue (sniper rogues to be specific, since EB/AB is strictly superior to any bow or crossbow ever conceived), Rangers (for the same reason as Rogues), and Paladin (since they already use Charisma, and again, superior ranged option to weld to their already superior melee capabilities).

Their solution is to buff up other cantrips as well, but this doesn't solve the base problem of power creep. This will simply encourage people to dip Warlock for the other benefits as well. The problem is to reign in EB/AB but not nerf it to oblivion. To this effect, you can change the wording of Agonizing Blast to only work with the first ray which successfully hits per round, and much of the problem would be solved. You could even have a second invocation further down the line (requiring Warlock9 or something) to let it work on all rays, so you can't just dip for it.

That would probably solve much of the problem, although as with any nerf, probably an extraordinarily unpopular house rule to implement.

[Daghoulish]

To this effect, you can change the wording of Agonizing Blast to only work with the first ray which successfully hits per round, and much of the problem would be solved. You could even have a second invocation further down the line (requiring Warlock9 or something) to let it work on all rays, so you can't just dip for it.

I like this. The only problem I have is taking two invocations. What if you changed it so that Agonizing Blast itself grows at warlock 9 to add damage to all bolts. Keeping the invocation cost the same but also making it a less attractive choice to multiclass into.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I like this. The only problem I have is taking two invocations. What if you changed it so that Agonizing Blast itself grows at warlock 9 to add damage to all bolts. Keeping the invocation cost the same but also making it a less attractive choice to multiclass into.

As long as you tie it to Warlock level instead of Character level, sure.

[Contrast]

because it is mechanically superior to any other ranged option available to any character at any given level at any time

That is so untrue I'm not sure if you're just being intentionally hyperbolic. Its definitely good if you're planning on having a decent charisma but investing in charisma has its own associated costs and benefits.

Without even considering anything else a battlemaster fighter would be a much better archer than <generic other person with two levels in warlock>. Regarding rogues - you're aware you can't sneak attack with eldritch blast yes?

[Segev]

First off, I saw this video yesterday and was nonplussed by some of its suggestions, while thinking others were interesting, so I'm glad to see this thread here.

Now, onto the meat of this discussion.

The best approach, I think, to correcting the problem they see (which I can agree with their analysis of, if not their conclusions), is to have specialized invocations for each cantrip the Warlock has access to. Not to do ANY sort of blanket, catch-all; the cantrips should be unique, and any bolstering from Invocations should make them more so, not less so.

Eldrich Blast is the generically-solid Warlock cantrip. It's designed to be better than the others because it's (primarily) a Warlock's specialty. Yes, you can get it without dipping Warlock. You can even get it and two Invocations of your choice and have 85% of the benefit that a specialist in it might get with a two-level Warlock dip.

The other two "blast" cantrips they get innately are shared with other classes. Still, having Invocations that let the Warlock tailor them to be more than "mere" cantrips would be fun.

Heck, they could even have more Invocations for expanding upon other cantrips.

Don't make Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear generic. Instead, make unique improvements to the other damaging cantrips.

Blinding Venom
Prerequisite: must know poison spray.
Any time a creature takes damage from your poison spray, they are Blinded for one round.

Lingering Dosage
Prerequisite: must know poison spray, and be at least 5th level.
A creature which fails its save against your poison spray is Poisoned for one round after taking damage. Each round where they start the turn Poisoned, they must make another Constitution save or take an additional 1d12 Poison damage.

Puppeteer's Hand
Prerequisite: must know chill touch, and be at least 5th level.
Undead damaged by your chill touch must make a Charisma save. If they fail, you may direct their actions on their next turn.

Shivering Fear
Prerequisite: must know chill touch.
Creatures damaged by your chill touch must make a Charisma save. If they fail, they are Frightened of you for as long as the icy hand prevents them from healing.

Unnatural Insight
Prerequisite: must know true strike.
When casting true strike, you gain instant knowledge of all valid potential targets, ignoring concealment, cover, invisibility, or anything else which might obscure your sight. You retain this awareness of your chosen target until the spell ends, allowing you to unerringly pick them out for the next attack you make before the spell runs out.

Death Perception
Prerequisite: must know true strike and have the Pact of the Blade.
When making a true strike-enhanced attack with your Pact Weapon, you roll the weapon damage dice twice and take the better result.

Venomous Pact
Prerequisite: must know poison spray and have the Pact of the Blade.
You may infuse your Pact Weapon with deadly poison. When you cast poison spray, you may choose to substitute the spell attack with a weapon attack with your Pact Weapon. The target receives no save against the poison spray if the Pact Weapon hits and deals damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That is so untrue I'm not sure if you're just being intentionally hyperbolic. Its definitely good if you're planning on having a decent charisma but investing in charisma has its own associated costs and benefits.

Without even considering anything else a battlemaster fighter would be a much better archer than <generic other person with two levels in warlock>. Regarding rogues - you're aware you can't sneak attack with eldritch blast yes?Yes, you can sneak attack with EB. It is a ranged weaponlike spell, so it absolutely qualifies, assuming the other qualifications are in place.

Battlemaster Fighter might be able to apply more Fun Stuff(tm) at range (i.e. Disarming Strike) it isn't remotely going to have the damage output of EB/AB. It might be more useful, but not more DPR. and fun fact, weaponlike spells can do the same thing, so you can do all this with EB as well, although it's already MAD enough without adding in Cha for AB. Still, even without AB, you can go EB + Grasp of Hadar + Repelling Blast and have a ton of at-will ranged enemy position manipulation on hand, in addition to the maneuvers. Maybe not as much damage, but at that point damage is the icing on the cake.

Actually... that sounds like a pretty fun build. Warlock 2/BM Fighter 3 ranged combatant and battlefield control specialist could be really effective.

[Greywander]

GW, I think there is still some confusion on what you are trying to accomplish. Are you talking mostly about ways to make cantrips other than EB better for warlocks? Is that your goal? Or are is the focus on increasing the output of non-EB cantrips in general (as in, for any class that uses them, and is willing to invest in making them better)?
Okay, I can see how there might still be some confusion about this. I did mention that I'd homebrewed a feat that allows players to get a couple warlock invocations without needing to level dip, but this was incidental to the topic of the post. I was merely bringing up that I'd already attempted to do some similar things to what DawnforgeCast had.

The meat of the post, however, was focusing on reworking Agonizing Blast (and Eldritch Spear) and how a seemingly innocent set of homebrew allowed me to create something much more powerful than I intended. This was meant to be in absence of any other homebrew I may have made, and so, yes, it was intended to be for characters that had put at least two levels into warlock. I did have multiclassing in mind, so I wasn't focused exclusively on warlock cantrips, but you would, technically, be have to be a warlock to get the invocations.

Still, it would probably be much more "balanced" and in line with many other similar class features to only have Agonizing Blast apply to all warlock cantrips, instead of cantrips in general.


Even if you have to choose between those rather than have all of them, it's still more powerful than being limited to Eldritch + Agonizing Blast.
I disagree, having more options doesn't make you more powerful, it gives you more variety. You only gain power when you choose one of the options, and you still only get to choose one, so it doesn't increase the power of a character to give them more options to choose from. The only things that would increase the power of a character would be allowing them to choose more options, or introducing a new option that is stronger than any of the other options.

What you're saying here might sound reasonable to you in this specific circumstance, but if you generalize it then it starts to sound ridiculous. I'm fairly certain you wouldn't limit your players to a single specific class because being able to play as any class would be "more powerful than being limited to class X."


I think it's mostly the "must have everything covered" pride talking if they want it.
Guilty as charged.

Although in my specific case, I'm actually dipping warlock mostly for the Chain Pact pet (plus all the other goodies you get from dipping warlock). As I said ealier, I was actually considering going for Eyes of the Rune Keeper instead of Agonizing Blast.


However, if we're going to make Agonizing Blast apply (mostly) equally to all cantrips, the way it functions needs to change. That's the subject of this topic, yes?
Not exactly. EB is special, and I'm fine with it occupying the niche of "most damaging cantrip". I don't want Agonizing Blast to add +20 to all my cantrips, that would be beyond ridiculous. I just want to close the gap slightly to make non-EB builds slightly more appealing.


By this logic I should be asking for the flexibility of Sorc points on my warlock so I can cast twin and quicken spell oh and be able to create spell slots.
Have you heard the good news of our lord and savior, Coffeelock?


The problem is to reign in EB/AB but not nerf it to oblivion.
I disagree, EB/AB is fine as-is for straight warlocks. I could see an argument for making EB a class feature instead of a cantrip so that you have to reach warlock levels 5, 11, and 17 in order to add extra beams. Another option would be to to nerf Agonizing Blast to only work on one beam, but then create another invocation (Super Agonizing Blast) that applies the bonus to all beams but requires a higher warlock level. Maybe even make it four separate invocations that each add the bonus to one additional beam, and they become available at 5th, 11th, and 17th level. This would make the regular warlock progression unchanged, as they would just swap out "Minor Agonizing Blast" for "Greater Agonizing Blast" when they reached the appropriate level.

This is all assuming we don't want other classes dipping 2 levels into warlock for EB/AB. If we're fine with this, though, then the other option is to consider how we could make cantrips viable instead of (or in addition to) EB. I like having more options instead of being presented with one option that is clearly "better" than all the others.


The best approach, I think, to correcting the problem they see (which I can agree with their analysis of, if not their conclusions), is to have specialized invocations for each cantrip the Warlock has access to. Not to do ANY sort of blanket, catch-all; the cantrips should be unique, and any bolstering from Invocations should make them more so, not less so.
I can agree with this up to a point. I'd rather have unique cantrips than bland ones that all feel the same. That's why I'm fine with EB being the best "damage" cantrip. I don't think it reduces the uniqueness that much to allow other cantrips to benefit from Agonizing Blast, but I think it's more interesting to consider other invocations that do something besides simply boost the damage. Honestly, if there was an invocation that did nothing but boost the damage of Ray of Frost, I would probably give it a pass every time unless the boost was significant (e.g. +20, like AB is to EB). I'd rather have an invocation that makes Ray of Frost a better control spell. An invocation that boosts the damage of all cantrips is more appealing, as I can pick up a variety of cantrips for different situations and they would all benefit from the one invocation.


Yes, you can sneak attack with EB. It is a ranged weaponlike spell, so it absolutely qualifies, assuming the other qualifications are in place.


The attack must use a finesse or ranged weapon.

Make a ranged spell attack
All attack rolls are either weapon attacks or spell attacks. Sneak Attack requires a weapon attack; Eldritch Blast is a spell attack. You cannot Sneak Attack with Eldritch Blast.

[Contrast]

Yes, you can sneak attack with EB. It is a ranged weaponlike spell, so it absolutely qualifies, assuming the other qualifications are in place.

Eldritch blast is not a finesse weapon or ranged weapon. You cannot sneak attack with it.

Without factoring in battlemaster abilities a fighter with sharpshooter, crossbow expert and dex 20 is doing 5d6+75 damage (average 92.5). Compared to eldritch blast at cha 20 doing 4d10+20 (average 42). Now admittedly the fighter is at -3 to hit compared but I don't think that's going to account for a difference of over half the damage.

The statement you made was that eldritch blast was always superior for any character at any level. Lets assume our fighter has dex 20 and 8 charisma. Please explain how eldritch blast is the superior option for that character at that level.

Edit - for reference, battlemaster abilities also generally require a weapon attack and do not work with EB.

edit edit - hell just a bog standard rogue with no feats at all but dex 20 is doing 11d6+5 damage (average 43.5).

[Unoriginal]

I disagree, having more options doesn't make you more powerful, it gives you more variety. You only gain power when you choose one of the options, and you still only get to choose one, so it doesn't increase the power of a character to give them more options to choose from. The only things that would increase the power of a character would be allowing them to choose more options, or introducing a new option that is stronger than any of the other options.

Variety is power, because giving more options without added cost let you choose the best option for the best event.

Unless you're saying "you can choose an invocation that'll apply to a single cantrip, and then you can't change". In which case it would be a cost that re-balance the advantage given.

[QUOTE=Greywander;23162830]
What you're saying here might sound reasonable to you in this specific circumstance, but if you generalize it then it starts to sound ridiculous. I'm fairly certain you wouldn't limit your players to a single specific class because being able to play as any class would be "more powerful than being limited to class X."

Being a party of diverse classes IS more powerful than being limited to one class. That doesn't mean I would limit my players to one class, because the game expect the party to be as powerful as a diverse party is, and I'm more than happy with that level of power.




Guilty as charged.

Although in my specific case, I'm actually dipping warlock mostly for the Chain Pact pet (plus all the other goodies you get from dipping warlock). As I said ealier, I was actually considering going for Eyes of the Rune Keeper instead of Agonizing Blast.


Don't you need to be lvl 3 to get the Chain Pact pet? I could have sworn you did...



All attack rolls are either weapon attacks or spell attacks. Sneak Attack requires a weapon attack; Eldritch Blast is a spell attack. You cannot Sneak Attack with Eldritch Blast.

Indeed.

[Greywander]

Variety is power, because giving more options without added cost let you choose the best option for the best event.

Unless you're saying "you can choose an invocation that'll apply to a single cantrip, and then you can't change". In which case it would be a cost that re-balance the advantage given.
Well, you did say something to the effect of, "even if they were separate invocations..." So maybe I can get one invocation to boost cantrip A and another invocation to boost cantrip B, but that seems kind of wasteful when there are so many other great options for invocations. In fact, if Agonizing Blast was just a straight +5 to EB, I'd probably give it a pass as well since I'd much rather have Repelling Blast or Lance of Lethargy or any number of other invocations.


Don't you need to be lvl 3 to get the Chain Pact pet? I could have sworn you did...
Yup, I'm dipping three levels. But for Agonizing Blast you only need two levels, which is what this thread has been discussing.

[Davrix]

Well this exploded in replies as I went to get lunch.

Something I want to point out though to those that are waving around the multi-class argument.

Something to keep in mind Multi-classing rule is Optional, just as feats. Wizards as a whole doesn't fully balance around the MC rule and or the feats. (They do there best) But some of these more common / powerful dips come into play from optional rules that are not part of the core of the game. So they will always change the balance of the game. I've actually run a game of straight classes with no dipping and you can really see why some choices were made for classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I disagree, having more options doesn't make you more powerful, it gives you more variety. You only gain power when you choose one of the options, and you still only get to choose one, so it doesn't increase the power of a character to give them more options to choose from. The only things that would increase the power of a character would be allowing them to choose more options, or introducing a new option that is stronger than any of the other options.More options provides more opportunities for unintended synergies to arise, which leads to a power creep. It's not that more options automatically make things more powerful, it is that more options have a far greater chance in developing 'perfect storm' scenarios that end up in more power. And as you add more options, the odds of an unintended synergy increases exponentially because you then have to test it against every other option already in play, then test it against every other option combination to see if it doesn't open something else up to abuse.

This is why adding more options is always risky, and should only be done when carefully planned out and taking into account all of the other resources available to the person being given the new option at the time.

Part of 3.5's lack of balance came from the PhB and how the classes were laid out, but a large part of it came from 'splatbook syndrome' which added more options without taking into consideration all of the existing options available. And because of that, unintended synergies abounded and were exploited. I'd really prefer 5e not fall to the same disease, although I'm starting to see symptoms already, which doesn't bode well.

Adding in more stuff to affect other cantrips is a dangerous step in the wrong direction when you can just nerf the problem at its source.

[Pex]

I fail to see why it should even be an OMG THE GAME IS A FAILURE thing that Eldritch Blast does what it does where other damage cantrips don't. Playing a Sorcerer I'm perfectly happy casting Fire Bolt when conserving spell slots. I contribute. It won't win the combat, but I don't have to. Someone else can do it that combat. I'll occasionally Twin it. I look forward to 6th level adding CH modifier to damage as a Draconic Sorcerer. For those particular times when a monster I face happens to be resistant or immune to fire, shucks darn I cast something else and don't resent it. Playing a Cleric I'm happy enough to use the Sacred Flame/Spiritual Weapon combo. With Toll The Dead available that's nice too.

[DarkKnightJin]

Add casting modifier to damage. So, now you're poaching the Cleric's Potent Spellcasting.
And Evocation Wizard's Potent Cantrip for the "half on save" thing.

While I like the idea, I don't think poaching things from the Warlock Invocation list, and stepping on archetype features is the way to go.

If you want to give a caster that relies on their cantrips a lot one(or both) of those features and they don't normally get them.. Give them a custom magic item to give them that effect.

[Rebonack]

Lots of things.

I think there might have been a misunderstanding here, since the points you're arguing don't really square with the rewritten Agonizing Blast I pitched.

Warlock has two main components, cool at will stuff (all the boons and several invocations including Agonizing Blast) and cool short rest stuff (leveled spells and patron features, mostly).

Agony falls into the 'cool at will things' category. It allows the Warlock a wider degree of character building choices when deciding which cool at will things they feel like spending their limited cantrip slots on. Because this Invocation scales with Warlock level it is of very limited use for multiclassing, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the argument that this feature is giving Warlock features to other classes.

Also: I understand the purpose of the EB/AB combo. It's to give Warlocks at will damage on par with an unoptomized Fighter. Agony still does this, it just allows the Warlock to pick different weapons (cantrips) if they feel so inclined. Can you imagine how boring the Fighter would be if they were only proficient with longbows?

Also also: You just suggested that the best solution to a player wanting a Warlock who does something other than toss Eldritch Blast every round would be to have them toss Eldritch Blast every round.

Absurdity aside, lightning cantrips are all effectively melee range. I took that into account when working with the player to design the Stormlord Patron. Its level 1 Patron feature wouldn't play nice with a 120 foot range at will lightning attack that can hit multiple targets.

[galaxia]

When the single most common multiclass 'dip' is Warlock, specifically for the EB/Agonizing Blast combo, because it is mechanically superior to any other ranged option available to any character at any given level at any time, seems to indicate that EB, specifically EB + AB, is pretty darn powerful. Most notoriously are Sorcerer (to give them superior at-will DPS to pair with their Long Rest abilities and give them some staying power if the GM decides that Long Rests are going to be a rare thing), Rogue (sniper rogues to be specific, since EB/AB is strictly superior to any bow or crossbow ever conceived), Rangers (for the same reason as Rogues), and Paladin (since they already use Charisma, and again, superior ranged option to weld to their already superior melee capabilities).

Their solution is to buff up other cantrips as well, but this doesn't solve the base problem of power creep. This will simply encourage people to dip Warlock for the other benefits as well. The problem is to reign in EB/AB but not nerf it to oblivion. To this effect, you can change the wording of Agonizing Blast to only work with the first ray which successfully hits per round, and much of the problem would be solved. You could even have a second invocation further down the line (requiring Warlock9 or something) to let it work on all rays, so you can't just dip for it.

That would probably solve much of the problem, although as with any nerf, probably an extraordinarily unpopular house rule to implement.
The dichotomy between nerfing to level and power creep to level is really a matter of aesthetics. If everyone gets paid more then the cost of things going up doesn't matter (inflation). If everyone gets paid less and the price of things drops then it doesn't matter either (deflation).

The only thing that matters is how well it fits with premade material and how easy it is to implement the rebalancing effort in general. Also, if we're deflating one class for balance will it make other classes too powerful?

5e really has really deflated magic in some ways, so power creep may not always be even the biggest aesthetic concern. Charm Person in 1e was unbelievably strong. Now, it's unbelievably weak. Concentration all over the place. If you want power creep, take a look at 1e's Phantasmal Force cast by an illusionist. Is it power creep when it's the really old version of the system? If you want balance issues compare Charm Person and Phantasmal Force with Affect Normal Fires and Mending.

Maybe the real problem isn't that combo but the ability to multiclass so easily. Some DMs rule that warlock is a permanent choice, using flavor as the justification. (Can't back out of the pact.)

[JoeJ]

I fail to see why it should even be an OMG THE GAME IS A FAILURE thing that Eldritch Blast does what it does where other damage cantrips don't. Playing a Sorcerer I'm perfectly happy casting Fire Bolt when conserving spell slots. I contribute. It won't win the combat, but I don't have to. Someone else can do it that combat. I'll occasionally Twin it. I look forward to 6th level adding CH modifier to damage as a Draconic Sorcerer. For those particular times when a monster I face happens to be resistant or immune to fire, shucks darn I cast something else and don't resent it. Playing a Cleric I'm happy enough to use the Sacred Flame/Spiritual Weapon combo. With Toll The Dead available that's nice too.

What?!?!? Anytime your average DPR between long rests drops below that of any other player at the table by more than 0.1 it requires immediate corrective action. That's basic D&D. Don't you even know how to play the game?

[Greywander]

I thought about this some more, and what if instead of making Agonizing Blast apply to all cantrips or making a separate invocation for each cantrip, we found a middle ground and created a few invocations that would apply to a broad swathe of cantrips?

First, Agonizing Blast would become this:

Agonizing Blast
When you cast a cantrip that deals force damage on a successful spell attack*, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.
When you cast a cantrip that deals force damage on a failed saving throw, it deals half damage if the target succeeds on its saving throw.

(*"Spell attack" would specifically exclude cantrips like Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade, which use a weapon attack instead of a spell attack.)

So it's been broadened, but only to apply to cantrips that deal force damage. Which is, what? Sword Burst? (Which, hmm, is on the warlock spell list.)

In addition, we add three new invocations:

Agonizing Storm - Like above, but for cold, lightning, and thunder damage.

Agonizing Flame - Like above, but for fire and radiant damage.

Agonizing Entropy - Like above, but for acid, poison, and necrotic damage.

This broadens your options while still requiring you to spend invocations to get them. Maybe you're not interesting in Eldritch Blast, but you'd sure like to beef up Ray of Frost, Frostbite, Shocking Grasp, Lightning Lure, and Thunderclap. Boom, Agonizing Storm. Or maybe you'd rather go for Fire Bolt, Create Bonfire, Sacred Flame, and Word of Radiance? Agonizing Flame. What about Acid Splash, Poison Spray, Infestation, Toll the Dead, and Chill Touch? Agonizing Entropy.

Or maybe I should just make these feats instead of invocations? Would that be a better cost vs. benefit ratio?

[Davrix]

I thought about this some more, and what if instead of making Agonizing Blast apply to all cantrips or making a separate invocation for each cantrip, we found a middle ground and created a few invocations that would apply to a broad swathe of cantrips?

First, Agonizing Blast would become this:

Agonizing Blast
When you cast a cantrip that deals force damage on a successful spell attack*, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.
When you cast a cantrip that deals force damage on a failed saving throw, it deals half damage if the target succeeds on its saving throw.

(*"Spell attack" would specifically exclude cantrips like Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade, which use a weapon attack instead of a spell attack.)

So it's been broadened, but only to apply to cantrips that deal force damage. Which is, what? Sword Burst? (Which, hmm, is on the warlock spell list.)

In addition, we add three new invocations:

Agonizing Storm - Like above, but for cold, lightning, and thunder damage.

Agonizing Flame - Like above, but for fire and radiant damage.

Agonizing Entropy - Like above, but for acid, poison, and necrotic damage.

This broadens your options while still requiring you to spend invocations to get them. Maybe you're not interesting in Eldritch Blast, but you'd sure like to beef up Ray of Frost, Frostbite, Shocking Grasp, Lightning Lure, and Thunderclap. Boom, Agonizing Storm. Or maybe you'd rather go for Fire Bolt, Create Bonfire, Sacred Flame, and Word of Radiance? Agonizing Flame. What about Acid Splash, Poison Spray, Infestation, Toll the Dead, and Chill Touch? Agonizing Entropy.

Or maybe I should just make these feats instead of invocations? Would that be a better cost vs. benefit ratio?

I mean if you want to add these as options to all those other spells it could work but why toss it around. You could simply add other vs of AB that change the damage type that can be taken multiple times. So that if someone wanted to buy them all with his invocation slots he could change the damage type at will to several different types for AB.