Speculation: A hypothetical rabbit out of the hat

[Snails]

Question: Where could the Order magically get resources to turn this around?

There is a theoretical possibility...

Suppose that Durkon's father, having valiantly fallen in battle saving others, has had the expensive ritual performed to make him the equivalent of an anointed saint.

It would make sense that people with a direct connection could more easily draw on that power. It would make sense there might particular locations where one could more easily draw on that power.

Durkon was hoping he could do so in this place, but that cannot work because he is vampire. (Too bad you did not study Knowledge (Religion), Durkon.)

However there does so happen to be another direct blood relative on hand...

On the plus side, this would be a clever way for a baby to participant, without it being logically strange for a simple baby.

[Jannoire]

You find the idea that a dwarf we know next to nothing about got somehow anointed and will save the PCs through obscure magic and his grandson we just met to not be logically strange?!

[D.One]

You find the idea that a dwarf we know next to nothing about got somehow anointed and will save the PCs through obscure magic and his grandson we just met to not be logically strange?!

"Ok, Order of the Stick, you are the main character and all, but I've decided the day will be saved by Mr. DwarfExMachina."... Don't think so.

[brian 333]

Well, I admit to a powerful desire to see Sergeant Sigdi and the Clan Thundershield Wrecking Crew step in. Not to take over, but to at least give the OotS crew time to catch a breath.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Ok, Order of the Stick, you are the main character and all, but I've decided the day will be saved by Mr. DwarfExMachina."... Don't think so.

In OoTS land, that's DwarfExMechane -- uh ...

[Christopher K.]

While I don't find it likely that Durkon's father is going to somehow play a role in the fight, I do find it interesting that Hilgya is still covering Kudzu's eyes. Whether or not that's relevant, I dunno, but it seemed like an odd detail to maintain.

[Jannoire]

When you bring your kid into as many battles as Hilgya did, that's more a habit than a willful action...

[Delta]

I think you might be on to something there, not sure it's gonna play out exactly like that.

But considering what we know I think it's a given that Durkon's memory will lead to something massive that will turn this battle around. We also know that the reason Greg doesn't know it's coming is because he doesn't understand connections between memories, so it's not something obvious. So it has to be something that only reveals itself in connection to another memory Durkon has had.

One thought that popped into my mind when I was first thinking about it was about the last time an evil undead thing tried to attack a sacred site protected by a divine order. What if there's a Thor equivalent of the Ghost Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, and maybe Durkon's father somehow being a part of that? Its existence could have been kept a secret and Durkon has only figured it out now when thinking back to his days of training, knowing what he knows now about the Sapphire Guard and their "last line of defense".

The main problem I see with something like that is the same as has been noted already, it would be pretty much Deus Ex Machina, it only worked in Sapphire City because the Ghost Martyrs failed to destroy Xykon, don't really see how Rich could pull it off here to make it feel right (because this would be a massive rabbit to pull out of the hat without any serious foreshadowing)

[Jannoire]

I don't think it's just that Greg can't connect the memories. In order to influence this battle, Greg needs to come to wrong conclusions based on the memories.

What purpose would be served by Durkon showing him a memory, that Greg sees, doesn't understand and then ignores. Sure, Durkon could be smug about it later ("Ha, I showed ye somethin' ye could na unnerstand!!!"), but to what end?

[Sir_Norbert]

I don't think it's just that Greg can't connect the memories. In order to influence this battle, Greg needs to come to wrong conclusions based on the memories.

What purpose would be served by Durkon showing him a memory, that Greg sees, doesn't understand and then ignores. Sure, Durkon could be smug about it later ("Ha, I showed ye somethin' ye could na unnerstand!!!"), but to what end?

Finally someone makes this point! Thank you!

[Fish]

Question: Where could the Order magically get resources to turn this around?

There is a theoretical possibility...

Suppose that Durkon's father...
Not his father, no. I've already made my guess elsewhere on the subject of Durkon's mother, so that's where I'm putting my quatloos.


I don't think it's just that Greg can't connect the memories. In order to influence this battle, Greg needs to come to wrong conclusions based on the memories.
More specifically, Greg probably needs to think Durkon's trying to show him memories to lead to Conclusion A, actively reject that conclusion as manipulation by Durkon, and substitute a different conclusion. And Durkon did say, "Time for the big fight scene..." which makes me think the memory we're about to watch is a fight between Durkon and his mother. A fight in which Greg thinks he can perceive Durkon's purpose, but possibly buried within which is a totally different meaning.

It all comes back to Durkon's mother.

[RatElemental]

I think the big memory might have something to do with Sigdi being on the list of "Very rich donators" while barely scraping by on her pension.

[brian 333]

Is it possible Sigdi was aware long before Durkon's ouster of the prophecies? If so, her donations may have been intended to mitigate the cost of his return, including by purchasing lots of gear to deal with vampires. That may be enough to get Durkula to re-prioritize Thor's temple.

[Snails]

More specifically, Greg probably needs to think Durkon's trying to show him memories to lead to Conclusion A, actively reject that conclusion as manipulation by Durkon, and substitute a different conclusion. And Durkon did say, "Time for the big fight scene..." which makes me think the memory we're about to watch is a fight between Durkon and his mother. A fight in which Greg thinks he can perceive Durkon's purpose, but possibly buried within which is a totally different meaning.


But that falls short of actually helping Durkon.

The key is the memory has to influence a future active decision by Greg, while Greg believes he is successfully avoiding manipulation by ignoring whatever Durkon reveals as his first line of defense.

It has to be one of two things:
(1) "Aha! Your attempt to trick me into thinking A is a little transparent. But I can see you were trying to actually get me to think B. Luckily, I have been paying attention and noticed something from a previous memory. You were trying to hide C from me, weren't you?"

(2) An actual reason that could persuade Greg that Hel's bidding is not his best career choice. Presumably, the original quandary vexed a certain young cleric of Thor, but it so happens to apply to a cleric of Hel, too.

[Provengreil]

I actually think this might be Belkar's time to die. Check Mr Scruffy through the fight. I thought he might snap Belkar out of it (TBH I thought that'd happen in the current strip). Then remember that that Belkar has quietly admitted kind of liking Durkon, being saved by Durkon(and being upset about the result), and that final assaults where you know you won't live, or at least don't care, can open some options.

I have no idea what that might entail, where the memory is going, or how they'll deal with the shell, but that's why I keep reading.

[RatElemental]

What I'm most confused about with the shell is why the spell didn't fizzle because Hilgya and Kudzu were inside of the area, or why they weren't sent flying out of it.

I'm also confused how a high level cleric got dominated but a low level one didn't and why Hilgya doesn't find listening to Durkon to be against her nature enough to get a new save.

[hamishspence]

The spell is not an undead-only spell - anybody can cast it if they have it on their spell list:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm

It's designed to protect small groups - not solely individuals. A cleric may wish to protect themselves and the rest of their party - so it doesn't eject people already within the zone as the spell's going up.

[Jasdoif]

I'm also confused how a high level cleric got dominated but a low level one didn't...Minrah wasn't shown in the dispel barrage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html); I imagine her protection from evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html) is still running (or she cast another one offpanel, possibly), preventing domination from affecting her.


...and why Hilgya doesn't find listening to Durkon to be against her nature enough to get a new save.Aside from how we haven't seen HPoH give Hilgya orders to take actions that are against her nature...If she got another save and still failed, how would we know?

[RatElemental]

Aside from how we haven't seen HPoH give Hilgya orders to take actions that are against her nature...If she got another save and still failed, how would we know?

Fair enough on the second point, but he did order her to hand Kudzu over to him which I would expect to at least blip on her "hey why am I doing this" meter.

[dmc91356]

Fair enough on the second point, but he did order her to hand Kudzu over to him which I would expect to at least blip on her "hey why am I doing this" meter.

The only order I saw was "Come Here" - was there another one?

[brian 333]

Fair enough on the second point, but he did order her to hand Kudzu over to him which I would expect to at least blip on her "hey why am I doing this" meter.

I never saw an order for Hilgya to hand over Kudzu. What I saw was, "Come here," followed by Durkula sitting with Kudzu in his lap.

However, allowing her baby to be handled by someone else is not a trigger event because mothers do so all the time. We've seen Momma Hilgya for less than an hour, so we have no basis to claim Hilgya would never allow another person to handle her baby.

When considering the "against her nature" clause as a trigger it would have to be something she would never do, not something she would do if it wasn't him.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the big memory might have something to do with Sigdi being on the list of "Very rich donators" while barely scraping by on her pension. You called it, four weeks ago. Nicely done. :smallsmile:

[Fish]

If you’re looking for pulling a rabbit out of a hat, then it may be more likely to wonder if Kudzu = Sabine than to wonder if characters we’ve never seen before will save the day.

[Kish]

The only order I saw was "Come Here" - was there another one?
Also, since when does Dominate grant another save for blips on the hey why am I doing this meter? (If an argument leads to the spell never working because the victim gets literally constant saves until one succeeds, it's probably not the intended reading of the spell.)

[RatElemental]

My reasoning is that Belkar is going along with it because of a twisting of Roy's orders (Protect V). Haley is doing it because Greg looks enough like Durkon to her.

I don't find it a large leap to say Hilgya handing her son over to the man she despises and came here to kill would be against her nature enough to get a new saving throw with a +2 bonus like the spell describes. Hell, V alluded to Yukyuk resisting her commands to shoot Z, which could be seen as him getting a new saving throw to try and shake off the domination.


Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Let's not forget the following possibility: the OotS+Hylgia have been getting a bunch of extra saves with bonuses, and still managed to miserably fail them all.

[Kish]

I don't find it a large leap to say Hilgya handing her son over to the man she despises and came here to kill would be against her nature enough to get a new saving throw with a +2 bonus like the spell describes.
And yet apparently that is not the case.

If you want to make a case that it should be, feel free. Ideally, such a case should not lead to the conclusion that any order a vampire gives to an enemy automatically results in a second save.

[brian 333]

Resisting and effectively resisting are two different things.

Belkar kills stuff. That's his schtick. Ponchula didn't say that he was unresisting, but that he didn't need much of a push. He did need a push.

We have no evidence that Hilgya never, ever, not once ever allowed another person to hold her baby. If ever in her life she allowed someone else to hold Kudzu, it is not against her nature!

It may be that Hilgya will break free. She is probably resisting as hard as she can. But a failed save is exactly that, and failed saves have consequences.

For an example, look at Elan. He has no reason to like Durkula, he knows Durkula isn't Durkon, and he is fighting Roy to the best of his ability. Not because it is in his nature to attack Roy, but because it is not against his nature to attack people with his sword.

[RatElemental]

And yet apparently that is not the case.

If you want to make a case that it should be, feel free. Ideally, such a case should not lead to the conclusion that any order a vampire gives to an enemy automatically results in a second save.

I felt I already had, but I'll make it clear.

Haley, who is aware that Durkon was vamped unwillingly sees Greg as Durkon, thus she follows his commands. Hilgya, who saw Durkon being a vampire as even more of a reason to hate him.

This means we must conclude one of the following:
Hilgya doesn't see Greg as Durkon.
Hilgya doesn't hate Durkon as much as she seems to.
Hilgya does not find it against her nature to hand her son to a man she hates.
Hilgya failed her saving throw again despite a will save of at least +9.

I think failing the saving throw is probably the most likely case, as I'm sure the giant doesn't consult the dice while writing.

[brian 333]

I felt I already had, but I'll make it clear.

Haley, who is aware that Durkon was vamped unwillingly sees Greg as Durkon, thus she follows his commands. Hilgya, who saw Durkon being a vampire as even more of a reason to hate him.

This means we must conclude one of the following:
Hilgya doesn't see Greg as Durkon.
Hilgya doesn't hate Durkon as much as she seems to.
Hilgya does not find it against her nature to hand her son to a man she hates.
Hilgya failed her saving throw again despite a will save of at least +9.

I think failing the saving throw is probably the most likely case, as I'm sure the giant doesn't consult the dice while writing.

Whether or not she hates Durkon or Durkula is not relevant. The spell allows no saves or bonuses to saves based on how a person feels about his dominator because that would render the spell pointless. The point of the spell is to force foes to act as allies. Foes intending to kill one another rarely don't hate one another.

[Jasdoif]

Hilgya does not find it against her nature to hand her son to a man she hates.There are two potential problems there: There's no evidence that she handed her son over to anyone (as opposed to HPoH taking Kudzu without ordering Hilgya to give Kudzu to him); and there's no evidence that handing her son over to anyone would be an action against her nature.

If you have to add context to the action (like who's receiving Kudzu) for it to even be disagreeable, the action itself isn't against her nature. Like Kish is getting at, the spell description doesn't really support a reading that would allow "Obeying anyone who violates the sanctity of my mind with a compulsion effect is against my nature, so I get a save no matter what I'm ordered to do" to fly.

[RatElemental]

It's not that she's being dominated, or that she's being dominated by Durkon that I'm saying is the issue. And I'm using V's comment about Yukyuk as my basis for the target of an action mattering. And besides all that, every mention of letting anyone else handle Kudzu has been shot down by Hilgya, so for all we know it might actually be against her nature to do so with anyone.

You do have a fair point that she wasn't necessarily ordered to hand Kudzu over, though.

[Kish]

And I'm using V's comment about Yukyuk as my basis for the target of an action mattering.

You're assuming that Yukyuk got actual mechanical additional saves; I'm not joining you there.

And besides all that, every mention of letting anyone else handle Kudzu has been shot down by Hilgya,
Where was that?

("You have to leave him at the Temple of Thor" is not "can I hold him for a second?")

[zimmerwald1915]

I came here expecting speculation about Roy's bag of tricks. I am leaving disappointed.

[brian 333]

I came here expecting speculation about Roy's bag of tricks. I am leaving disappointed.

Dang, I missed that bit of foreshadowing. The army of furry animals mounted on chaos giraffes was a powerful indicator that Roy's Bag of Tricks was going to play a pivotal role in the resolution of this battle. :thog: