So how do you avoid magic trivializing investigations?

[LordBlade]

One of the things that's always bothered me with trying to set up non-combat campaigns, is that it's very hard to try and justify most investigations, considering that there's so many spells that basically trivialize all of that.

[Efrate]

Not until a bit higher level. Given enough time and spell.casts you can get a lot of information, so make it time sensitive.

Also the best counters to magic are of course, more magic.

[Gnaeus]

Houserule: detect evil detects evil auras and stuff like demons/undead. A murderer will not radiate unless he is sacrificing to dark gods.

Houserule: some mundane tricks can block scrying. Like a thin sheet of lead or other basic wards.

Campaign assumption: powerful NPCs are protected from scrying by mindblank or similar. Questions relating to them fail.

Campaign assumption: Gods scry better than PCs but with the same limitations. Your god couldn’t see what happened in the (Scrying resisting) throne room either, so unless it’s directly connected to his portfolio or some follower was aware of it, (s)he doesn’t know either.

[Telonius]

Generally I put the magic in the hands of my players. They'll typically spend half the session following up on the shifty-eyed Commoner who has nothing to do with the greater plot.

[chimaeraUndying]

They'll typically spend half the session following up on the shifty-eyed Commoner who has nothing to do with the greater plot.

This, pretty much. Even though it's a ton of prep, just throwing tons of information (including a whole barrel of red herrings) at the players means that even if they can use magic to resolve the investigation, they still have to figure out how to use it -- and how to filter out the gold from the dirt in what they uncover. Magic isn't free, so unless the whole party is casters who're stacking up on intrigue spells, it's gonna take them a good while to figure it out even with magic, and that's when you make them deal with time pressure so that they can't just sit around and divine the exact correct solution.

[Venger]

One of the things that's always bothered me with trying to set up non-combat campaigns, is that it's very hard to try and justify most investigations, considering that there's so many spells that basically trivialize all of that.

Well, step 1 is making sure your players are actually interested in playing miss marple.

If they are and you are, then cool. Go ahead and start coming up with a bunch of npcs who have the same initials so the monogrammed handkerchief the pcs find only narrows down the suspect pool instead of finding the bad guy.

If you fail to address this, then the party might reasonably conclude that what they were supposed to do was enter a medani trance, see who killed Mr. Body and then track them down for a combat encounter.

If you are frank with your expectations about the storyline with your players, then they won't treat what you intend as a plothook as an obstacle to be overcome.

Once you do this, make an exhaustive list of all special powers your pcs have that might allow them to obviate your whodunit or whatever.

Try to think like you would if you were a PC. Don't restrict this to scrying magic. Do any of them have scent? Can any of them speak to animals or cast stone tell? if so, rather than outright blocking every single one of these avenues, try to think like your murderer/thief/whatever would. The same way mundane criminals wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints or plant someone else's dna at a crime scene to cast suspicion on someone else, how might your guy do that if he knows he'll be divined on?

For example, to go back to our monogrammed handkerchief example. If a psion pc casts object reading on something, try to think ahead and have more than one suspect who share some of the factors discovered. Maybe your criminal took steps to provide false information somehow.

Through this lens, you can provide small amounts of true (or misleading) information to railroad the party to the next plot point, so they can talk to the next red herring, check in with lestrade, witness the second killing that proves it couldn't be the guy who they thought it was, etc.

And most important of all, don't completely shut them down at every turn. It's ok if not every investigative tool your pcs try works, but same as how if you have an npc beguiler, it's a jerkstore move to use nothing but mindless zombies as enemies, you don't want to have everything pcs try to solve your mystery or advance the story come up dry. If this happens, they may again make the reasonable assumption that you aren't actually running a mystery plotline and try to find who the person they're supposed to chop into pieces is, steal his gear, and move on to the next one.

This is all general advice of course. If you have a specific plotline you're trying to run, then that information will help us give more tailored advice.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Venger is, of course, spot-on.

Regarding magic, it's countered by magic. It's not unreasonable to homebrew some custom warding (incl. anti-divination) spells with large drawbacks and long durations.

For example, modify the base spell as follows: Affects warding magic of spell level 3 or lower; reduce spell level by 1 (to a minimum of 0), change duration to permanent, effective caster level and dispel DC are 1 (regardless of caster's actual CL), can't be made into a magic item, casting time is 12 hours, focus is a lucky horseshoe/bundle of herbs/dreamcatcher nailed to the item to be protected (house, cart, horse), requires twice-yearly maintenance (12 hours of ritual at each solstice).

You get a spell that won't in any way stand up to an actual mage--dispel magic will always fry it, the focus is pretty easy to disable, and you can only ward things you can hammer nails into. Still, to an unprepared scroll-user on a cursory divination sweep, this is a speedbump that can just about guarantee your privacy long enough to move any sensitive information.

[Cosi]

Don't make the investigation the whole adventure.

"A guy got killed, find out who killed the guy" is only self-contained if the guy is relatively unimportant. No major events get set in motion if someone kills a baker or a haberdasher. But that's not at all the case if someone kills a king or a high priest.

Consider the following scenario:

Two weeks ago, the king was killed. He was found dead of poisoning one morning, and investigation has thus far turned up no conclusive evidence. The PCs have been called in because they have ties to the court from some previous adventure, are reasonably powerful (presumably somewhere past 8th level if they have investigation-trivializing magic), and are hopefully neutral.

The king was largely well liked, having fought a couple successful military campaigns and presided over enough economic success to keep the common folk happy. Recent border skirmishes lead to him building the military up, to overall support from the army. He'd been making noises about taking action against the mage's academy, and the latest round of guild negotiations were stalled.

The queen was the king's second wife, and though younger than him by some years was rumored to be concerned about being replaced by a younger woman.

The king's older son is much in the mold of his father, and is the clear favorite to replace him, drawing support from the church, the military, and the common people. However, there is evidence that he arranged his father's death, though no clear proof or motive.

The king's younger son is widely considered to be a weak-willed and conniving man, mostly seeking the throne for personal power. He draws support from the mages, the guilds, and the more opportunistic members of the court, all of whom think having him on the throne would let their own agendas run rampant. If his brother is disqualified, he will claim the throne, and no one would believe him above manufacturing evidence.

The king's daughter is not concerned with the throne, but is a sorceress of significant power. She had been fighting with her father over his agitation against the mages guild, seeing it as a personal affront despite her minimal association. She's not concerned with the throne herself, but won't accept a resolution that lets sanctions go into effect.

The king's other children are of little concern. None of them have enough of a claim to be serious contestants for the throne, or any other reason to get involved. Some of them may have information.

The chancellor cares relatively little who ends up on the throne, but while the murder is investigated he wields the bulk of the king's power. His interest is in keeping the investigation going as long as possible without jeopardizing his position when it does conclude.

The mages mostly want a guaranteed return to the status quo, but some more ambitious elements have been suggesting taking a tighter hold over the kingdom. They back the younger son, though if the kingdom weakens enough they might attempt to take the throne.

The guilds are granted a legal monopoly over their respective trades in exchange for providing cheap service to the king. Their contracts are renegotiated on a ten year cycle, and the king died in the middle of the last renewal. They want favorable trade terms and policy, and many guild heads have been pushing for a weakening of the crown. They're torn between supporting the younger son, aiding the chancelor's efforts to prolong the conflict, and inciting rebellion.

The military supports the elder son, and fears that some of the kingdom's neighbors, restless even while the king lived, might attack if he is not coronated quickly. Already there are rumblings that they should take matters into their own hands and install him by force.

That's pretty well resistant to anything like "scrying on the killer" or "speak with dead the victim" because the whodunnit part of the story is fairly minor. Maybe the queen killed the king. Maybe someone hired an assassin. Maybe someone from a neighboring kingdom did it. But even when the party figures that out, they still have to gather proof, deal with the schemes various interested parties will be engaging in, act quickly enough to stop the situation from degenerating, and figure out a resolution everyone can agree to. Of course, there are a bunch of extra layers you could add there. Maybe someone is a monster pretending to be or possessing one of the members of the court. Maybe someone has been relying on outside help. Maybe the king isn't dead. Maybe someone has already started an invasion. But there's plenty of opportunity there for intrigue and investigation, and spells are going to advance the plot rather than resolving it.

[Anachronity]

[...] rather than outright blocking every single one of these avenues [...]

And most important of all, don't completely shut them down at every turn. It's ok if not every investigative tool your pcs try works, but same as how if you have an npc beguiler, it's a jerkstore move to use nothing but mindless zombies as enemies[...]This. Don't just tell them they can't or it doesn't work. If every important enemy is immune to scrying then don't let them pick scrying abilities in the first place.

That said, Vancian magic is a pickle because it's bewilderingly, unfairly versatile. I prefer using Spheres of Power because it doesn't automatically give your player's ice mage the ability to turn invisible, fly, see the future, and escape at will into a pocket dimension.


The best mysteries and riddles are the ones that don't obstruct forward progress. Ideally you should design any mystery or riddle so that a party of four low-intelligence barbarians are able to resolve it. The trick is that they may not necessarily get the best resolution. Perhaps if the players aren't quick enough or miss an important clue they end up fighting the wrong person or allowing an innocent to die. If you plan it right then when the big reveal happens later it makes them feel guilty, or else makes them hate the big bad behind it all even more for tricking them.

A good example of a riddle I enjoy is the Pathfinder Society scenario 'Overflow Archives', wherein players can technically end the scenario at any time, but by delving the dungeon they collect clues to the riddle posed earlier that slowly make the answer more and more obvious until they can't help but succeed, bringing about the final confrontation.

[Nifft]

(good stuff)


(good stuff)

In addition to the good stuff already posted, here's some success I've had:

1 - The PCs only get called in when the standard good procedures prove insufficient or contradictory. So the cops obviously used speak with dead (or similar) on the victim, and the victim described a suspect with perfect accuracy, except that suspect was provably away from the scene of the crime at the time of the murder (and only returned to town / the plane a day or two later). This is the main way I've had success with a murder mystery as a mystery.

2 - The perpetrator is significantly more sympathetic than the victim, and the PCs either turn from investigators into accomplices, or they struggle with the moral consequences of being Lawful at the expense of being Good. This is more of a RP opportunity for the players than it is a mystery, but it can be good for provoking character angst.

3 - The evidence trail leads through some locally open secrets, things that everyone knows about but never discusses with outsiders, and uncovering the truth will mean significant social upheaval -- so this is a good way to set the stage for either gaining notoriety and some powerful enemies, or gaining some powerful allies at the expense of being not-so-Good. Again, this is more for the opportunity to do some RP than it is for clever mystery solving -- the "mystery" is mostly unsolved because the local authorities have an interest in not solving it.

[Venger]

Thanks, Nifft, that's really nice of you.


In addition to the good stuff already posted, here's some success I've had:

1 - The PCs only get called in when the standard good procedures prove insufficient or contradictory. So the cops obviously used speak with dead (or similar) on the victim, and the victim described a suspect with perfect accuracy, except that suspect was provably away from the scene of the crime at the time of the murder (and only returned to town / the plane a day or two later). This is the main way I've had success with a murder mystery as a mystery.
I definitely agree with this line of thinking. Related, forensic science and reasoning will be different for dnd characters. It isn't unusual to investigators in the game if someone was in two places at once, or if person x was seen doing the murder, or if someone has an alibi due to the existence of shapeshifters, illusions, etc. Any element along these lines that would end or resolve a mundane cozy should be the beginning of a magical one.



2 - The perpetrator is significantly more sympathetic than the victim, and the PCs either turn from investigators into accomplices, or they struggle with the moral consequences of being Lawful at the expense of being Good. This is more of a RP opportunity for the players than it is a mystery, but it can be good for provoking character angst.

3 - The evidence trail leads through some locally open secrets, things that everyone knows about but never discusses with outsiders, and uncovering the truth will mean significant social upheaval -- so this is a good way to set the stage for either gaining notoriety and some powerful enemies, or gaining some powerful allies at the expense of being not-so-Good. Again, this is more for the opportunity to do some RP than it is for clever mystery solving -- the "mystery" is mostly unsolved because the local authorities have an interest in not solving it.
These definitely sound like fun ideas for a campaign. Again, I highly recommend talking with your players to see if they're interested in this kind of paladin falls type campaign before play so they can bring appropriate characters and whatnot.

[Jack_Simth]

Houserule: detect evil detects evil auras and stuff like demons/undead. A murderer will not radiate unless he is sacrificing to dark gods.

Non-houserule: A big chunk of alignment is your outlook. Lots of folks will detect as evil even if they've never done anything like murder - they just look down on all their fellows and are perfectly fine with cheating folks to get ahead.


Houserule: some mundane tricks can block scrying. Like a thin sheet of lead or other basic wards.

This isn't a houserule! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying):

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.


Campaign assumption: powerful NPCs are protected from scrying by mindblank or similar. Questions relating to them fail.

Don't most powerful PC's have similar protections? Just make sure to write a reason for the ability into the baddie's build, and you're set.


Campaign assumption: Gods scry better than PCs but with the same limitations. Your god couldn’t see what happened in the (Scrying resisting) throne room either, so unless it’s directly connected to his portfolio or some follower was aware of it, (s)he doesn’t know either.
Or, you know, settle on "While it may not make perfect sense, Commune and Contact Other Plane are both divinations that you're using to gather information about a subject, so nondetection and mind-blank apply to them just as they would a casting of Detect Evil"

[Darth Ultron]

You might want to read up on crime fiction in general. There are plenty of good 'how too' books on this topic. And there are, of course, thousands of novels. And movies and TV shows. The bulk of modern cops shows, even more so the CSI ones are worth a watch. iZombie too.


Next, you really want to read all the 'problem' spells. A lot of them are very specific about what they do or don't do. The vast majority of spells are quite close range. And the commune/contact spells are only 'yes' and 'no'....so you can't ask who killed Professor Plum.

Then, it is easy enough to use lots of mundane ways to foil spells. If a poor guy is killed from behind, when you speak with the dead on him..he can't tell you who killed him.

And any criminal, might well take a step or two to foil any investigation, even magic ones. Again, see crime fiction.

And lastly, there is magic. Just give the criminals some magic...they don't need to be archmagi with reality altering wishes...really, cantrips will do.

*Mending can repair many broken 'clues'
*Mage Hand can move things, and leave no trace.
*Prestidigitation can do tons...but best of all the 'clean' bit obliterates evidence(like say blood on a shirt or gun powder residue)

In all, magic is a toll....not a instant solve the case.

[Fizban]

I haven't run any investigative campaigns, but you'd need to do two things:

1: understand how the magic actually works, because it doesn't trivialize nearly so much as people think it does. Do an advanced search on the forum for all the past divination (and sometimes teleport) threads and read up on all the completely non-magical and non-fiat ways to screw with divinations. There aren't actually that many of them, and each has massive weaknesses.

2: once you know how to work within or modify the magic rules, then probably just get better at making investigative campaigns. The Alexandrian and The Angry DM are a couple of good DMing blogs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The spells aren't the problem. They all have their limits to work around.

The problem is that most DMs have virtually no clue about how, when, and why to control the flow of information.

First you need to know who did what and why they did it -before- you may the plot-hook. Then you get on with the how of it and bear the limitations of both divinastory magic and mundane investigation in mind. Then, and only then do you consider active measures to foil investigation (covering your tracks and anti-divinatory magic) -if- it makes sense for the who and why.


Take the old speak with dead canard; who murders someone face to face when they've been planning to kill the victim? Even the dead man himself can't tell you anything about the guy that killed him if he never saw it coming. Best you get is a list of suspects. Not even that if the killer separates or breaks the victim's jaw. Any hired killer in a world with such magic would likely take the whole head or destroy it more or less entirely as a matter of course.

Virtually every form of divination has its own issues in the same manner.

Even the dread contact other plane has, at best, a 12% chance of failure for each question asked, only allows a handful of questions, and carries substantial risk of the caster losing his casting ability before you even consider deific intervention.

The single most difficult thing to deal with is a seer with the psychometry and sensitivity to psychic impressions powers. Seers in general are a royal pain for this sort of thing.

TL; DR: Do the legwork of both the incident itself -and- of finding the holes in the divination magic.

[Cosi]

Another thing to bear in mind: the point of an investigation usually isn't just to find out who did the thing. It's to get enough proof to get them punished somehow for doing that thing. It's not implausible that people might not be convinced by "I scryed him, and he was totally paying the assassin off" or "I asked Pelor who did it and he said Greg". The party might need to get a confession, or some physical evidence.

[Venger]

Another thing to bear in mind: the point of an investigation usually isn't just to find out who did the thing. It's to get enough proof to get them punished somehow for doing that thing. It's not implausible that people might not be convinced by "I scryed him, and he was totally paying the assassin off" or "I asked Pelor who did it and he said Greg". The party might need to get a confession, or some physical evidence.

Also good to think about what the burdens of proof are going to be in your game if your pcs are working for the police or similar

[Feantar]

Some house rules, some use of existing rules, and a lot of preparation. Remember that your plot exists in the universe and thus it has to stand in it; we have DNA evidence, they have scrying. Your plot, thus, needs to be resistant to scrying - get creative. Necessity is the mother of invention and all that nonsense.

Let's address a few points, mostly from the SRD.


Divinations: Detect (Alignment, Poison, Magic, Secret Doors, Undead, Thoughts), Locate Object, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Augury, Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Speak with Animals

Detecting Alignments:


Plot Based: Your villain doesn't have to be evil, but if they are, they are definately not the only evil person around. Also, evil people are not necessarily idiots who go around killing randomly. If so, stealth is probably not their forte, and your plot isn't a mystery.
Magic Based: Undetectable Alignment is a level 1 (Bard) spell that lasts for 24 hours. Even if the villain can't cast it themselves, the cost of purchasing it is 10 gp per day, less I'd assume if it was a bulk(as in daily) deal.

Detecting Poison, Magic & Secret Doors
These are all actually fine. They don't last forever and cannot be cast at will in the beginning. Detect poison is essentially a quick alchemy check on something you already suspect might be poison. Detect secret doors is similar, in that you could already find the secret door without the spell. Magic is too vague most of the time, but it is useful in the sense that it can give hints, similar to forensics (lingering aura).

Detect Undead
This one is an issue, because in most campaigns undead are approached by the populace as kill-on-sight. However the majority of undead that don't look the part are much higher level than a level 1 spellcaster, and so might have access to the level 2 disguise undead spell which, conviniently, lasts 24 hours per casting.

Detect Thoughts

Plot Based: Ahh, good ol' fashioned mind reading. The way to shield from this is actually pretty simple for a lot of parties. Law. Seriously, allowing people to read each others thoughts is insane. Buisiness deals ruined, kingdoms toppled, chaos level insane. Of course, your players might ignore that.
Rules Based: In that case, remember that detect thoughts is language dependent, and as such, a clever villain who knows you're doing something simply has to switch to a language you don't know. Comprehend languages doesn't work here, the words aren't spoken. Another approach is pretty high will saves, or simply actively thinking random things. Oh, and remember, detect throughts takes 3 rounds to work. So, a magic-savvy villain can make up a "plot" and feed you false information. (Round 1): Oh they are detecting my thoughts eh? (Round 2) Alright, let's see what I can come up. (Round 3:) I remember seeing Baron Von Murderdorf running away from the crime scene, blood all over his lappelle ... etc.


Locate Object
Generally useless, even if you actually don't try to figure a way to protect against it. You know the direction, and it lasts a couple of minutes. "Where is the king's ring?" - "North". Also remember, The spell is blocked by even a thin sheet of lead. 'nuff said.

Augury
Generally not harmful at all, as it only looks 30 mins in the future. Just make your choices non-binary or non-immediate and you generally make it possibly useful but not plot breaking. For example, don't have "should I cut the red or the green cable", have "should I cut the red, the green or the blue cable" and you just asked for an additional casting. It can be useful in eliminating some options, but that is it's job.

Speak with Animals, Dead, Plants
The animals and plants are pretty awesome, in the sense that they are excelent plot hooks. Ooh, the murdered mayor had a small potted plant near the window that was broken. They don't harm you at all, since they are very easy to avoid as a DM; just don't put animals or plants with available information around. Speak with the Dead is more of an issue, but remember a few things: The body must be mostly intact and the more damaged it is, the more incorrect it's answers, and it must have a mouth. In a world where this is possible, just make the killer take a trophy of it's jaw or head and you've solved the issue. Also, it is a pretty reasonable approach to not see who killed you if they tried to do it quietly, because they would not want to tip you off. Finally, it is a Necromancy spell, and there are multiple taboos in that front. It is similar to the other spells, in that it can provide some info, but only as much as you want.

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Repeat after me: this is not scrying. If you can use this spell, you could also potentially sneak in. This spell is not an issue, it just replaces stealth with a limited time floating invisible ear/eye.
Seemingly Problematic Divinations:

Divination, Commune, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore:
These are in general not an issue if you've taken them into consideration. Divination doesn't answer a question, it provides you useful piece of advice (see plot point). Legend Lore is a perfect spell to give a plot's backdrop, but it won't do much in spoiling things. The problematic ones are Contact Other Plane and Commune. However, they can only be used when the options are pretty clear: Will we find the Rod of a Million Cliches in the Dungeon of Doom? Y/N or Did Bob kill the king?. Also, you can pretty much bet that most players would cast commune only once, because it has an XP cost. Contact other Plane is Commune's older, more capable, edgy sibling. The main way to truly counter it in these levels, is to make your plot hinge on multiple points, so that learning one thing doesn't immediately lead to another. Remember, both spells don't allow you to pause to deliberate between questions. The cop out way is to claim a deity blocks your answer; it fits sometimes, but if you keep doing it it becomes annoying.

Locate Creature and Prying Eyes:
See what I said for Locate object and Clairaudience above. Not an issue.

Find the Path:
This spell is problematic if you like puzzles... up to the point where you notice this little detail: its effect does not predict or allow for the actions of creatures . So, if your dungeon is guarded by a Sphinx, then it won't tell you the answer to the riddle. In general, if a creature is involved in establishing the path, the spell doesn't take it into account. This still makes many puzzles useless, which might be annoying but, then again, we're talking Teleportation, Passwall & Shadow Walk levels, so that isn't that of an issue. Still, keep an eye out on this and think on whether you will ban it or not.

Scrying:
This spell is actually not that problematic. Remember, you can only scry on a creature, not a location. So, let's say you're scrying on the main villain. Are they in a dungeon? Then it stands to reason that the dungeon can be easily lead-lined. Before you complain, these are the antagonists of a band of people who are able to decimate armies (just the humble fireball). They are capable, or they are dead. Other protections include Misdirection, Nondetection & False Vision (which don't last long enough but can do so if the villain is a spellcaster) and Mage's Private Sanctum, which has an excellent duration but means the villain has a stable basis of operation. Scrying is problematic, yes, especially since you can just try to scry on a lackey of the villain, and use their sub-par will save, but there are defences - Secrecy, Magic and Location based ones.
These levels actually make things easier until ; the only Core problematic spell is Discern Location and it kicks off the same level as Mind Blank which blocks... well, everything up to this point. Problem is, ofcourse, that if an villain does not have access to mind blank, they are not protected, but we're talking about such high levels here where this becomes more of an issue of Mundanes vs Spellcasters.

Not divination's per se, but Miracle and Wish are unblockable; you can always get to the villain if you want to, and you could pierce a mind blank with a wish + a divination probably. (I wish this little ferret named tomy is taken to the villain + I scry on Tommy). I have nothing to say here except that on this level, the "a God blocks you" excuse is actually vallid nearly all the time.
There is a single "divination" which I have no idea how to block because it doesn't actually divine something as much as giving you the solution, and it's not a divination really. It is Hypercognition. Don't ask me to help you there.

Note: I discovered that the spell check doesn't work in my browser for some reason, but I didn't manage to fix it yet, so I apologise if something is too blatantly wrong here.

[Braininthejar2]

The idea is not to take away the players' toys, but to make them part of the game.

Yea, the player can interrogate animals. The dog is the only witness - which is why it's up to the party to solve the case.

Cue a solid 10 minutes of trying to get a coherent testimony out of the mayor's dog - dumb as a brick and prone to comparing everything to food, because even with the spell active, his vocabulary is limited to his interests.

Reminds me of my Werewolf campaign in WoD. Yea, spirits are everywhere - but the lightning spirit flowing through the room's cables has horrible ADHD, and trying to make sense of a tree's point of view is like playing charades.

[Necroticplague]

Easy: low level campaign. As you level up, different things become trivial. So don't play at a level where the plot is a trivial challenge.

[DMVerdandi]

Best solution? Ban divination.
There. Now things like knowledge, gather information, lore, etc become SO much more valuable, and you can actually hide things from the players, and I would bet, if they were down for an intrigue/espionage/investigation game, they would be so much happier to have it gone, rather than trivializing everything.


I like whole school bans, because they shape the game in wild ways.

Abjuration ban makes everything just that much more dangerous
Conjuration ban means you actually have to Gather materials, tame beasts and travel
Necromancy ban means people stay dead
Illusion bans make hiding things normally more important, as well as stealth
Enchantment bans means you can't just have your way.
Evocation bans aren't really that much, but It kind of stops contingency.


But it's best done as a 1-2 school ban rule, that way, players still have TONS of spells left, but the flavor and character of the game changes a lot by excluding just one degree of freedom.

In your case, Banning Divination means gaining information the old fashioned way is much more of a physical process. To see things, SOMEONE is going to have to be there, and you can't just ask the gods what's up. They won't reveal fate. So suddenly, those knowledge skill points are worth something, shaking down people is sometimes necessary for logistical comprehension, and everything INSTANTLY becomes way more sneaky.
In that, banning illusion, it's opposite is also probably encouraged. That way, you don't just have no defense against illusion spells.

No illusion/Divination works perfectly fine.

[Mordaedil]

Detect thoughts is easily defeated merely by playing mental pazaak...

[Anachronity]

(On low levels)
Divinations: Detect (Alignment, Poison, Magic, Secret Doors, Undead, Thoughts), Locate Object, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Augury, Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Speak with Animals

Detecting Alignments:


Plot Based: Your villain doesn't have to be evil, but if they are, they are definately not the only evil person around. Also, evil people are not necessarily idiots who go around killing randomly. If so, stealth is probably not their forte, and your plot isn't a mystery.
Magic Based: Undetectable Alignment is a level 1 (Bard) spell that lasts for 24 hours. Even if the villain can't cast it themselves, the cost of purchasing it is 10 gp per day, less I'd assume if it was a bulk(as in daily) deal.
Also I can't tell you how often people forget this: Detect Evil does not work on characters of 4th level or lower (unless they are outsiders, undead, or clerics).

[Telonius]

Also I can't tell you how often people forget this: Detect Evil does not work on characters of 4th level or lower (unless they are outsiders, undead, or clerics).

If you're using the Pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil/) version, yes. The standard 3.5 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) doesn't have the 4th-level restriction; any Evil creature up to 10 HD registers as faint evil.

[Andor13]

Also good to think about what the burdens of proof are going to be in your game if your pcs are working for the police or similar

Read "The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. The Detective in the story is a telepath who knows who the murderer is in seconds, but telepathic evidence isn't admitted in court, so then he has to figure out how to prove what he knows.


The spells aren't the problem. They all have their limits to work around.

The problem is that most DMs have virtually no clue about how, when, and why to control the flow of information.

Watch some crime shows from NCIS to Sherlockj Holmes. The sort of "We found a single hair so we know" level of forensic tech in the modern shows is a good parallel for Divination Magic.

[Oracle71]

If a mystery is of such importance that it requires high level pcs to investigate at all, it probably means that the mastermind behind it is also of a commensurate high level. Which means that they will intentionally take multiple steps to obfuscate any investigations via divination.

The simplest is simply making sure that none of the minor players in the mystery plot has any direct knowledge of the larger plot. A king's food or wine taster only knows that he is supposed to taste the food before he gives it to the king. He doesn't have to know that the wine was poisoned, and that he was secretly slipped the antidote before hand, and that the queen was conspiring with the mages guild to get rid of him.

The next defense would be willfull misdirection, placing the blame on the minor players. That wine taster was obviously the assassin, so when a search of the wine taster's belongings finds a bag of gold with the symbol of the local thieve's guild on it, that just confirms that he was hired by the thieve's guild.

Beyond that, you have the conspirators casting charms, compulsions, and memory altering magic on everyone involved, no matter what their role was. And on people around those minor players. When you determine that not only was the wine taster's memory altered, and that he was under the effect of a geas spell, but so was the chef, the kitchen assistants, 10 pages, the scullery maid, the laundry girl, 12 personal guards of the king, the apprentice to the court wizard, 4 members of the diplomatic contingent sent from the next kingdom over, and the 9 members of the thieve's guild that were arrested just the day before the feast where the king was poisoned, it becomes increasingly difficult to suss out who was actually involved.

And of course it would be even more difficult if the one critical link in the mystery simply didn't exist anymore. What if the actual poisoner was the wine taster's new fiancee, who was added to the kitchen staff some months before, and now that the king is dead, she is nowhere to be found? She was geased to walk through a certain false door, which was a portal to the Abyss, or she was teleported somewhere hundreds of miles away, where she was murdered and disintegrated.

But also keep in mind that solving this particular mystery may only be one scene in a very long story arc, one that can involve any number of powerful forces. What if the poisoning of the king was just the first round of a larger plot to destabilize the kingdom, so the nearby evil overlord can more easily invade and conquer? Sounds like it could be the start of an entire political campaign.

[Anachronity]

The standard 3.5 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) doesn't have the 4th-level restriction; any Evil creature up to 10 HD registers as faint evil.Oops, right you are. I remembered the difference, but for some reason had convinced myself this thread was exclusively asking about pathfinder games.

[Jay R]

The simple answer is that a mystery is usually a low-CR encounter or series of encounters. You don't give one to high-level characters for the same reason you don't attack them with goblins.

[Venger]

Read "The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. The Detective in the story is a telepath who knows who the murderer is in seconds, but telepathic evidence isn't admitted in court, so then he has to figure out how to prove what he knows.


I'm familiar. One of my favorite books.

[MonkeySage]

"Evil" doesn't always mean "guilty"- in my own setting, certain creatures (Namely Tieflings) will ping evil regardless of their actual alignment. A person can ping evil even if they've never killed anyone, because they take pleasure in causing pain, or because they have a callous disregard for life. It's not just monsters, murderers, and evil clerics that ping evil. It's also bullies, abusive spouses, war profiteers, etc.

Sometimes, if its a murder mystery scenario, the only evil character was the victim, and everyone else hated that person. Basically, everyone had a motive.

[Mehangel]

That said, Vancian magic is a pickle because it's bewilderingly, unfairly versatile. I prefer using Spheres of Power because it doesn't automatically give your player's ice mage the ability to turn invisible, fly, see the future, and escape at will into a pocket dimension.

While it is true that spherecasters do not automatically begin with the Divination sphere, a divination sphere specialist is likely to trivialize investigations just as a vancian spellcaster (especially if the Diviner's Handbook is involved).

[PunBlake]

Since no one else has mentioned it, if you have access, Dragon Mag #316 (p48) has an article called "Smoke and Mirrors: Divinations in D&D," which is a pretty good look at this topic.
I definitely second all the talk of RP/alignment-angst and motive-spreading. Some of my best DMing has been ad-libbed investigations with red herrings provided by evidence and divinations.

[Necroticplague]

"Evil" doesn't always mean "guilty"- in my own setting, certain creatures (Namely Tieflings) will ping evil regardless of their actual alignment. A person can ping evil even if they've never killed anyone, because they take pleasure in causing pain, or because they have a callous disregard for life. It's not just monsters, murderers, and evil clerics that ping evil. It's also bullies, abusive spouses, war profiteers, etc.

Sometimes, if its a murder mystery scenario, the only evil character was the victim, and everyone else hated that person. Basically, everyone had a motive.
Amen to this. Or to quote one of the evil PC's I've partied with "Yes, I've done a lot of horrible things. However, that's no proof that I did this particular horrible thing."


The simple answer is that a mystery is usually a low-CR encounter or series of encounters. You don't give one to high-level characters for the same reason you don't attack them with goblins.

Or at the very least, a high-level mystery has to take these kinds of things into account. Mind Blank, Thinuam, celestial politics, mutilating bodies....

[legomaster00156]

In my Pathfinder games, truth spells and divinations are used by the justice systems in most nations, but they are paired with more traditional investigation due to the inherent unreliability of magic (most especially spell resistance, successful saves, immunities, and Divination having a chance of incorrect information).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also I can't tell you how often people forget this: Detect Evil does not work on characters of 4th level or lower (unless they are outsiders, undead, or clerics).


If you're using the Pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil/) version, yes. The standard 3.5 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) doesn't have the 4th-level restriction; any Evil creature up to 10 HD registers as faint evil.

Also remember that, by default, that's about a third of all humans and that a single dark deed isn't enough to push someone's alignment down to evil unless it's something far more monumentally evil than a single murder. Lighting up the evil-dar is worth very little else besides "maybe keep an eye on that guy."


"Evil" doesn't always mean "guilty"- in my own setting, certain creatures (Namely Tieflings) will ping evil regardless of their actual alignment. A person can ping evil even if they've never killed anyone, because they take pleasure in causing pain, or because they have a callous disregard for life. It's not just monsters, murderers, and evil clerics that ping evil. It's also bullies, abusive spouses, war profiteers, etc.

Sometimes, if its a murder mystery scenario, the only evil character was the victim, and everyone else hated that person. Basically, everyone had a motive.

Also this (save the tiefling thing which is a house rule).

[Mordaedil]

Heck, the cool thing about a murder mystery is that you could make it super interesting by having it be a murder-by-passion, where both were law abiding citizen of general good natures, but one was a policitian crunching the numbers to appease the most people and the other was a butcher who would loose his livelihood because of the decision of the former and during a heated debate ended up getting so angry, he killed the politician and ran away before it was discovered, meaning scanning for clues using magic would be mostly useless.

Heck, this can then be resolved fairly peacefully at the end by simply convincing the butcher to turn himself in, by having discovered all of the relevant clues (he's caring for his daughter and his wife is bedridden with an illness, he's the sole provider for his family and he felt threatened and cornered). Lots of opportunity for story development here and you divinations can't outright reveal what happened.

[Troacctid]

Any well designed D&D adventure should have a healthy mix of different types of encounters. As a result, in most cases, divination spells can shortcut certain parts of the adventure, but not the whole thing—and if players are under time pressure, they'll hopefully chew through some party resources, so they'll have fewer spell slots to use to actually apprehend the culprit.

I have DM'd extensively for Adventurers League, and there are tons of modules that include gumshoe elements. It's preeetty rare for divination spells to break them. Here are some examples:
DDEX2-10 "Cloaks and Shadows" (levels 1–4) involves the players being framed for murder. They have to find the true killer to clear their names. A series of clues can lead them to his hideout for a final showdown. Resourceful players might use their gold to go to a local temple and purchase Divination as a spellcasting service. This can let them skip the intermediate steps. Doing so leaves them better-rested for the boss fight, but causes them to miss treasure from the other encounters on top of losing the 210 gp service charge. Either way, they still have a difficult battle ahead of them.

DDAL5-12 "Bad Business in Parnast" (levels 1–4) has the players attempting to unmask a saboteur who is undermining the town of Parnast as they build up their defenses against an imminent attack from a hill giant warlord. If the players can afford 210 gp to buy a Divination spell, they can potentially learn the saboteur's identity right off the bat, bypassing the rigamarole of hunting for clues. Detect Thoughts or Speak with Animals could potentially nail him too. Trick is, though, hunting for clues is never actually going to uncover the saboteur's identity anyway, because there is such an overabundance of red herrings in the module. The only other way is to catch him in the act. And once you do catch him, he leads you straight to his boss, an orc warlord, whom you then have to fight.

DDEX2-3 "The Drowned Tower" (levels 5–10) has an investigation section. But the point of it isn't to discover whodunnit—it's to gather more information to help you in the next part of the adventure. Without a specific question that you need answered, and with most of the relevant information already available by mundane means, divination spells are useful tools for gathering clues, but offer relatively little advantage over traditional investigation methods (or stuff like Charm Person).

DDAL5-13 "Jarl Rising" (levels 5–10) sends players on a mission to learn whether the frost giant jarl who has been terrorizing the region of late has, as rumors suggest, successfully acquired an artifact that has allowed him to muster an army of giants to his banner. If anyone thinks to cast Divination, Commune, or Contact Other Plane and ask if Jarl Ryndölg has blown Hartkiller's Horn, the adventure is over. Oops. That's really just a poor hook, though; it's easily fixed by asking the players to go to the intended lookout point and capture it for strategic reasons.

DDAL07-11 "A Lesson In Love" (levels 11–16) has players searching for a missing person. It turns out she's being held in a pocket dimension, making scrying spells useless, as Scrying in 5e can't traverse interplanar boundaries. Other spells can speed the investigation along, and the module is written with that in mind; there's a sidebar offering tips on what information is available through typical divination spells.
There are other adventures with investigation elements as well, like DDEX1-2, DDEX2-2, DDEX2-5, DDEX2-6, DDAL4-3, DDAL6-2, DDAL7-4, CCC-GEL-01, CCC-KUMORI-02, CCC-MACE-01-01...I could go on. The point is, a multitude of published adventures deal with this issue, and in my experience of DMing over 1000 hours of organized play, I don't remember it ever actually resulting in any problems. More often, it either doesn't help (for whatever reason) or results in players being rewarded for clever play.

[Jay R]

Or at the very least, a high-level mystery has to take these kinds of things into account. Mind Blank, Thinuam, celestial politics, mutilating bodies....

Exactly. Mysteries have a CR just as much as monsters do. You wouldn't give a 13th-level party a mystery that can be solved with a single Locate Object for the same reason you don't give them an encounter that can be solved with a single Summon Monster II.