Rogue Disguised as a Wizard

[poopyloop]

Hey there, I'm going to be DMing my first actual campaign soon (I've done some one-offs and such here and there, but never an actual campaign so far) and one of my players is wanting to play a Rogue who is pretending to be a Wizard, hiding his true identity from the rest of the party, including the other players.

I think this is a really cool idea, but I guess just wanted to hear some opinions on it in general.
My main question is this; would it be broken to let him add sneak attack damage when he is casting a "cantrip"
Let me clarify: his rogue will be using various tricks and other items to preform the same duty as low level spells, mostly cantrips. I'm essentially allowing him access to firebolt via throwing a moltov cocktail at enemies, a vial of acid to replace acid splash, him just swinging around with a sword in place of sword burst, etc. His DEX is basically his casting ability in these scenarios. (any spell replacement recommendations would be awesome btw)
Firebolt will be the main one most likely, I'm basically having him scrounge up the materials and/or buy them when he can. I can't see this breaking anything in particular, not that I think he would take advantage of this, but I just want to see if anyone has had a character like this, or heard anything like this before and if it is balanced or needs some extra tweaking or what.

[Arenabait]

Mundane fire deals 1d6 per round until it's put out as an action (Not bad at all) and costs as much as a bottle of lamp oil (kerosene) would, 2sp IIRC, and acid deals 1d6 for one turn and costs 25gp per vial. Throwing these would probably count as an improvised weapon, so he'd need Tevern brawler to be proficient, and it's be strength based rather than Dex barring you saying otherwise. Do with that what you will.

[Yagyujubei]

id say that the rest of the party would have to be pretty clueless to see a lvl 1 wizard getting sneak attack dice and not think something was up

[Vogie]

Thrown weapons can be used for sneak attack by RAW, so that passes the sniff test

Rogue's scaling comes from Sneak Attack rather than weapon progression, while cantrips in 5e scale with character level. So if your "acid vial" uses an acid splash/"Molotov" uses a fire bolt skeleton, just always cast as though you are level 1, it may not be broken.

However, all thrown weapons in 5e thus far cap out at 1d6, so that may still be the die that your DM will allow your attacks to use.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Mundane fire deals 1d6 per round until it's put out as an action (Not bad at all) and costs as much as a bottle of lamp oil (kerosene) would, 2sp IIRC, and acid deals 1d6 for one turn and costs 25gp per vial. Throwing these would probably count as an improvised weapon, so he'd need Tevern brawler to be proficient, and it's be strength based rather than Dex barring you saying otherwise. Do with that what you will.

I'm pretty sure that things like Acid and Alchemist's Fire, which are in the equipment page, count as improvised ranged weapons and as such use Dexterity. Even in the case that you use it within 5ft it asks you to make a ranged attack. Ranged Attacks use dex as the modifier and Melee attacks use strength, unless they're given exception by weapon properties like Finesse and Thrown.

You don't get proficiency bonus however, since they are improvised weapons and without tavern brawler you are not proficient with them. The issue is that Alchemist Fire and Acid Vials are expensive for a low level adventurer. 50gp for Alchemist Fire and 25gp for Acid.

It's also pretty weak compared to the spells, even Acid Splash which isn't a very good cantrip far outclasses a Vial of Acid. You'd have to do quite a bit of homebrewing to make sure he's keeping up and is able to even afford the gear.

Take a look at the Artificer UA (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf) with the knowledge that the Alchemist Satchel is better (or at least comparable) than the standard equipment items and is still pretty terrible.


Thrown weapons can be used for sneak attack by RAW, so that passes the sniff test

It asks for Finesse or Ranged weapons, Acid Vials and Alchemist's Fire are both improvised weapons. It only works if you're homebrewing in some better options for thrown vials where they actually have properties, like Finesse or Ranged.

It will definitely work for long enough that he could pick up actual spells as an Arcane Trickster, or to Multiclass into a real spellcaster, but it's going to be pretty miserable for him past level 3-5 if you haven't made major adjustments to accommodate him.

-Special thrown vials with scaling damage
-Vials that have melee weapon properties like Finesse and Thrown or count as actual Ranged Weapons so he can sneak attack with them
-Proficiency with said vials, since Tavern Brawler would be the only way to get it without DM fiat

It's also just going to be a tough sell for this to actually fool anyone, magic isn't easy to convincingly replicate with items in the game rules and there are checks to determine whether he's actually casting spells or just throwing vials.

[Quoxis]

Just let me get this straight: you want to give someone scaling cantrips that they‘d cast using Dex (which nicely also raises their AC, their main damage-reducing save, some of their likely most often used skills and their weapon attack stat) and sneak attack is where you’re concerned about breaking anything?

Hurling thrown weapons like alchemists fire is reliant on Str (if i‘m not mistaken), while the cantrips you want are either Int or Cha dependent (and there’s a feat giving you two of them and a 1/d first level spell, so in other words you’re granting your player a free feat). Of course you can house rule whatever you want, but as another player i’d feel at least a little cheated.
Don’t make niche builds SAD, a bit of rule conformity doesn’t hurt here.

[poopyloop]

So, is there any reason a vial of acid is so much? Just for realistic feel? I think in general, it would be a lot easier to just play it as him "casting" his thrown weapons, and not have the cantrips scale at all (the original plan). He will just have to do some work for them to happen. Since they will basically be spells, the modifier won't add to damage, and I see no issue with him getting proficiency in his vials and whatnot for simplicity, and more so for RP purposes. I'm planning on him being discovered eventually, until then I will roll the sneak attack damage in secret. As far as keeping it a secret, his character has been doing this for a while, so it's basically a few sleight of hand checks per fight. I'm sure the others will eventually figure him out, and that is where the fun lies.
The info you guys have given so far has been really helpful actually, didn't know some of that stuff. So far I'm not seeing anything I'm uncomfortable with as far as changing/modifying things. I might even have him start out with some cocktails instead of some normal starting equipment.

[JoeJ]

Hey there, I'm going to be DMing my first actual campaign soon (I've done some one-offs and such here and there, but never an actual campaign so far) and one of my players is wanting to play a Rogue who is pretending to be a Wizard, hiding his true identity from the rest of the party, including the other players.

I think this is a really cool idea, but I guess just wanted to hear some opinions on it in general.
My main question is this; would it be broken to let him add sneak attack damage when he is casting a "cantrip"
Let me clarify: his rogue will be using various tricks and other items to preform the same duty as low level spells, mostly cantrips. I'm essentially allowing him access to firebolt via throwing a moltov cocktail at enemies, a vial of acid to replace acid splash, him just swinging around with a sword in place of sword burst, etc. His DEX is basically his casting ability in these scenarios. (any spell replacement recommendations would be awesome btw)
Firebolt will be the main one most likely, I'm basically having him scrounge up the materials and/or buy them when he can. I can't see this breaking anything in particular, not that I think he would take advantage of this, but I just want to see if anyone has had a character like this, or heard anything like this before and if it is balanced or needs some extra tweaking or what.

I don't understand how this works. The characters will see a molotov cocktail and somehow think it's a firebolt? Or the characters will know the truth but the players won't? Setting aside the mechanic for a moment, how does this work narratively?

[poopyloop]

I don't understand how this works. The characters will see a molotov cocktail and somehow think it's a firebolt? Or the characters will know the truth but the players won't? Setting aside the mechanic for a moment, how does this work narratively?

He is a Rogue adept at hiding things and quick with his hands. His tricks and objects are his specialty that he's been working on to convince people he is capable of magic for quite a while. In the heat of battle, no one is really going to be paying attention to what exactly is going on at every given second or paying special attention to the Rogue's hands. Unless they know how the spell works they may not notice anything at all (not to mention even if they do, there are ways of casting the same spell in different ways, depending on who you learned the magic from). The other PCs may or may not notice the bottle, but if the enemy is lit on fire, that is what firebolt does, so they may not get it right away. Or maybe he'll fudge his first roll and they'll notice immediately.
As for who will be aware of the Rogue's antics, it will initially only be me, the Rogue Player, and the Rogue himself (and maybe a few NPCs)

[ProsecutorGodot]

He is a Rogue adept at hiding things and quick with his hands. His tricks and objects are his specialty that he's been working on to convince people he is capable of magic for quite a while. In the heat of battle, no one is really going to be paying attention to what exactly is going on at every given second or paying special attention to the Rogue's hands. Unless they know how the spell works they may not notice anything at all (not to mention even if they do, there are ways of casting the same spell in different ways, depending on who you learned the magic from). The other PCs may or may not notice the bottle, but if the enemy is lit on fire, that is what firebolt does, so they may not get it right away. Or maybe he'll fudge his first roll and they'll notice immediately.
As for who will be aware of the Rogue's antics, it will initially only be me, the Rogue Player, and the Rogue himself (and maybe a few NPCs)

A large part of most magical spells is hand gestures and verbal incantations. There's also the visual aspect of spells as described in their texts.

Even without making a check the different between a thrown vial from 20 feet and a firebolt from 100 feet is going to be night and day.

[Aaedimus]

It may be weak narratively, but I'm sure they'll have fun

[poopyloop]

A large part of most magical spells is hand gestures and verbal incantations. There's also the visual aspect of spells as described in their texts.

Even without making a check the different between a thrown vial from 20 feet and a firebolt from 100 feet is going to be night and day.

You're right. He will do the hand gestures (digging out his materials) and he will say the incantation (which will be gibberish most likely, but unless someone is very experienced in spellcasting, they won't know the difference as each caster casts spells in different ways)
as for the visual aspect, Firebolt: You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. The cocktail will be on fire. Unless they are looking directly at it in a fight or see it out of the corner of their eye (passive perception) the will see the fire but the bottle will be harder to see. Just one example obviously, but that is probably one of the more complicated ones. The range will likely be a problem eventually, didn't think of that, but he can't keep it a secret forever.

[Aaedimus]

Personally, I would require some changes to the spells past "not scaling with level" if you wanted it to be fair for everyone. You could have the "Molotov cocktail" shot as a custom bolt from a hidden hand crossbow, or sling and just write down the stats of the bolts and give him a method to replenish them. That could seem much more realistic to the untrained eye. I am partial to the sling, because you could narrate the waving of the hands and a fiery ball coming from "him to the target" much easier, and it would make more sense to the other characters. I wouldn't specifically give him any of the cantrips as written though if you're adding sneak attack damage. That's sounds more like a player wanting to bend the rules to gain unfair advantage.

Also, the "cantrips" have disadvantage at melee, acid splash is a save so he can't roll to attack with that one and pretend (the players will find out) and Sword Burst is an area affect also with a save. Don't give sneak attack to an area effect spell... you're making the equivalent of a Mini Fireball cantrip style.

These are all problems you'll want to answer before doing this in the game.

For Sword Burst I propose: Everyone but one of them will always pass the save

[Daithi]

Magic Initiate and the UA Arcanist feat would also help sell the idea that he's a wizard by giving him some actual real magic to cast. If he's human, he could start off with one of these.

[Aaedimus]

And if he did do magic initiate, I would not if I were you let him get sneak attack on the cantrips.

[ImproperJustice]

Artificer with the Charlatan background really is what he is looking for.

It really isn’t as bad as everyone seems to think it is.
Robe of useful items, bag of holding to magic stuff out of thin air, and use smoke sticks, and other items.

You get unlimted fire and acid bombs, use expertise in tool kits to create flash paper, hidden compartments in stuff, etc.

Grab sleight of hand and use your extra attunment slots for wands and other misc items to expand your “spell list”.

Anywho, that’s my plug for the class and your idea.

[poopyloop]

Forgot to mention, he was friends with a wizard in his backstory, so wanted to learn magic due to that. He will be playing a Goblin, so no feat at lv 1, but he will be sub-classing to arcane trickster, so he will eventually be getting actual magic
Aaedimus, you've given me a lot to think about on top of it all. It might be more complicated than I initially thought but I think I'll be able to handle it. I'm sure once he gets figured out tho, it will become much more simple. It should really only be the first part of the game I would assume. I'll mostly just be rolling anything extra for him myself. Luckily we're doing it over roll20 so it will be easier for me to do secret rolls.
ImproperJustice, you bring up a good point actually. I'm not sure if he is aware of the artificer class, but I will bring it to his attention. I'm pretty sure he is set on a "Rogue so sneaky, he can pretend to be a wizard and everyone will believe him" tho

[Halbaradkenafin]

I'd say the other players should be told but let them know their characters don't know yet. The players are likely to pick up on it pretty quickly so they might as well know from the start and that way there isn't any potential problems, they might even come up with ideas for other ways to pretend to cast spells.

[Contrast]

He is a Rogue adept at hiding things and quick with his hands. His tricks and objects are his specialty that he's been working on to convince people he is capable of magic for quite a while. In the heat of battle, no one is really going to be paying attention to what exactly is going on at every given second or paying special attention to the Rogue's hands. Unless they know how the spell works they may not notice anything at all (not to mention even if they do, there are ways of casting the same spell in different ways, depending on who you learned the magic from). The other PCs may or may not notice the bottle, but if the enemy is lit on fire, that is what firebolt does, so they may not get it right away. Or maybe he'll fudge his first roll and they'll notice immediately.
As for who will be aware of the Rogue's antics, it will initially only be me, the Rogue Player, and the Rogue himself (and maybe a few NPCs)

Dude 'not paying attention to him every second' is one thing, attacking someone with a sword and claiming you cast sword burst is another.

This seems an awful lot of effort to go to for a gimmick that likely won't even manage to last through to level 2. I'd honestly suggest just have him be a human, pick up magic initiate and then go arcane trickster. He can choose expertise in sleight of hand and performance and try to gussy up what magic he can legitimately do (I've done exactly this for a previous character), no need for you to start house ruling a load of stuff.

Edit - sorry just saw you said they would be a goblin. I still wouldn't go out of your way. I'd just suggest to the player that their character sticks to the kind of magic that isn't obviously disproved (fortune telling, detect magic, etc.).

[Quoxis]

Dude 'not paying attention to him every second' is one thing, attacking someone with a sword and claiming you cast sword burst is another.


And now i need to play a dumb brute fighter who‘s calling his attacks spell names and insists on being called grandwizard.
„I CAST SWORD BURST!“ - „So, normal weapon atta“- „SWORD. BURST.“

[Magzimum]

One of my players is wanting to play a Rogue who is pretending to be a Wizard, hiding his true identity from the rest of the party, including the other players.

I'd give it a go.

But I would warn the player that he's essentially making a joke: It will be funny one time, but the other players are going to find out sooner or later, and then what? Will it turn into a strength in roleplay, will it become the running gag in the game, or will it become boring quickly? I'd advise your player to think ahead a little, unless this is a very short campaign. How will this character develop at Level 5, when wizards often get access to much bigger spells?

Also, I would make your player roll a sleight of hand every now and then. Since he's trying to deceive the other players, you may want to find some creative excuses for that, but rogues shouldn't be able to continuously deceive people (players/enemies) without having to make a roll every now and then.

[Davrix]

Key thing here.

Its fine with the idea he has. Its cool to let the party be clueless IN CHARACTER about this.

Out of character the table needs to know at least to some degree. You don't have to tell them exactly what he is doing but there needs to be a channel of dialog of something like.

"Hey guys Player A has a fun idea for a character but it involves keeping a deception going. If you guys are ok playing this up lets not act on OOC information and let the story play out." (Granted this only works at a table where people are good at separating IC and OOC things in their heads.)

If they party is not ok with the idea I would not let him do it.

This is just the kind of situation that depends on your players and your table. Ive seen it done well and I have also seen it fracture a group and bring bad blood between players. Now granted your rogue friend is being pretty tame with his idea. This isn't along the same line as the guy at the table trying to play the EVIL character in the good party. (never works, don't try it)

[Nifft]

Thrown weapons with finesse or ranged quality can be used for sneak attack. That limits you to daggers and darts. Improvised weapons, like flasks of oil/alchemical substances lack those qualities.

Improvised weapons (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons) do seem to have a range:


An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

[Zanthy1]

I'll tell you this: having a player keeping secrets about his character from other players has a high risk of being a bad idea. Essentially theres no point to it other than him trying to be special and thus other players are not special. However, if the other players are aware, just their characters are not, then ignore what I am saying. As a character concept I think its a cool idea, but I am speaking from experience when I say that no one likes playing at a table with someone who is trying to be the ultimate edge lord and keep secrets from everyone else (experience as a DM, and a player who has done this, and been at tables where other players do this).

[Aaedimus]

@niffft improvised weapons have range, but do not have the finess property which is required for sneak attack.

[Vogie]

@niffft improvised weapons have range, but do not have the finess property which is required for sneak attack.

There's an OR there.

You can either have Finesse Weapon OR Ranged. Otherwise you couldn't sneak attack with any bows or crossbows, which you totally can.

[Unoriginal]

As a DM, if the player REALLY wanted that, I would tell the rogue they can use alchemy to craft small firecrackers, colorful powders or harmless colored gas countained in small vials as distraction/disguise to hide their actual action, but it'd require a DEX(Sleight of Hand) check to make people not notice the oddity, or a DEX(Deception) check if the oddity is right in their face but you can still pass it as something else.

Like, throw a dart with a firecracker tied to it as a "firebolt", and try to make people only notice the explosion and not the sharp metal piece that actually killed the guy.

It'd only take a few fights for the PCs to notice the deception, though, given the number of rolls, but enemies who only see it for one fight could be convinced.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Improvised weapons (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons) do seem to have a range:

Those flasks are also given their own specified range, 5/20 ft.

Having a range doesn't allow them to be used for Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack requires a weapon to have the finesse tag or for it to be a ranged weapon. Improvised weapons don't count as a ranged weapon and they lack any special properties like Finesse.

The distinction between making a ranged attack (throwing an improvised weapon) and attacking with a ranged weapon (shooting someone with a hand crossbow) is important in regards to Sneak Attack. Thrown Weapons are not Ranged Weapons.

The gameplay issues with the idea boil down to it being weak without a lot of adjustments such as price and damage, the narrative issues come down to it being ridiculous to assume that anyone would fall for this more than once (Sleight of Hand can only do so much to conceal a thrown flask of Alchemist's Fire compared to a Firebolt cantrip) and the table issue is that it's going a long way to keep a secret from other players at the table for no good reason.

[Glorthindel]

I'm afraid to say, the "class x pretending to be class y" trope has been done to death, and it nearly always is a complete disaster, because either everyone knows out of game, so you might as well not bother, or the character (and player) just becomes the load, almost actively sabotaging their party by being completely incompetant at what the party are trusting as being their responsibility, and actively avoiding contributing in the fields they are skilled in.

In the category of worthwhile secrets to keep from the party, this ranks pretty low in providing any narrative value (when uncovered, you are unlikely to get a "oh, wow" response, and more a "well, that explains why you were crap"), whilst being possibly the most disruptive (even a character secretly working for the villain is likely to be more useful since he is going to be spending most of the time trying to seem valuable to the party).

[Spore]

If you want to roleplay a rogue as an arcane scholar and want to sit in a trance meditating and pretending to cast a scrying spell or other divination. To cast a mage armor spell and just have a very well made chain shirt under your robes, to somehow prefer melee combat with your quarterstaff instead staying at the backline, in character no one will be the wiser.

You are just a very excentric diviner to them. Bonus points if you use some of your proficiencies to ACTUALLY be somewhat competent with knowledge rolls. Emulating attack cantrips is about the worst thing a charlatan like that could do. Go for the subtle spells, like enchantments (you really are just a very convincing personality with charisma and expertise in persuasion, you didnt cast charm person), like divinations or even abjurations.

Heck, he can even be a real arcane scholar that is just unable or not interested in actually casting spells.

[Aaedimus]

That's actually the first super legit way of pulling it off

[Talionis]

I wish they had an archetype that could do this, which is why I have wanted the Artificer or Factotum or Chameleon ported to 5E.

Rogue/Thief does get fast hands at level 3. The trope seems silly for a character that by level three will actually cast spells as an Arcane Trickster. You'd almost be better with a level of Caster and then going Rogue. That way you would get access to some spells of low level, maybe you were kicked out of Wizarding school after the first semester so you only have your basics or kicked out of your church after your first level of cleric. Maybe your sorcerer mentor dies at an early age, or you break your pact with your Patron as a Warlock, and then finish up as a Rogue.

Its easy to picture a Rogue character getting kicked out of a school, even for something that they didn't do. Any of these could be similar back story for Magic Initiate, which allows you some modest casting.

Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion, etc seem like they might be helpful to pretend to cast higher level spells. It should be easy to cast those spells and do actions like using skills. Possibly illusions might even help you be more Persuasive. Being able to use Sleight of Hand as a bonus action and cast an illusion to further distract or cover up the actual action taking place would be the way that I would see this working.

Thief eventually gets use Magical Device, so if you start at high level or take the farce to higher levels good use of magical items may help.

Both a level of caster or Magic Initiate and then getting the Thief/Rogue is the only way I can envision making this work.

[JoeJ]

It'd only take a few fights for the PCs to notice the deception, though, given the number of rolls, but enemies who only see it for one fight could be convinced.

Nobody is paying attention to the rogue; everyone is too busy watching the walls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561946-The-Art-of-Illusion-Question) to see whether or not arrows go through them.

[Nifft]

I wish they had an archetype that could do this, which is why I have wanted the Artificer or Factotum or Chameleon ported to 5E.

It's important to note though -- a Chameleon fakes being a spellcaster by actually casting spells; a Factotum fakes spellcasting by casting Wizard spells as a spell-like ability; an Artificer makes magic items and uses those items to cast spells.

All of those examples do create the effects of spells. It's not just trickery -- magic happens.


PS: I did a 5e Chameleon base class, it's in my sig. :smile: