Why doesnt Lesser Restoration cure exhaustion?

[Trask]

Is it because exhaustion is percieved to be a debilitating condition? Maybe so but even then it only reduces it by one. Am I alone in feeling that this not only extremely harsh but also silly?

Why is exhaustion on the same level as petrification, curses etc. And even then its not completely removed.

I feel that exhaustion should be keyed to lesser restoration.

Thoughts?

[Kane0]

Well one level for Lesser and all for Greater probably won't cause all that much breakage in the system, unless you have a Sorlock or something setting out to abuse it.

Edit: Wait, the Cleric could use it on the Frenzy Barbarian! Totally OP!

[MaxWilson]

Is it because exhaustion is percieved to be a debilitating condition? Maybe so but even then it only reduces it by one. Am I alone in feeling that this not only extremely harsh but also silly?

Why is exhaustion on the same level as petrification, curses etc. And even then its not completely removed.

I feel that exhaustion should be keyed to lesser restoration.

Thoughts?

Mmmm, good point. If a player asked for this I would agree and do it. I don't feel strongly enough about it to houserule in the absence of a request, but what you say makes sense.


Edit: Wait, the Cleric could use it on the Frenzy Barbarian! Totally OP!

Hahaha, yup, with this suggested houserule in effect, Berserkers actually feel just about right.

[Speely]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

[CTurbo]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels.


I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of.

[Speely]

I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of.

Yeah, I appreciate that Exhaustion is a hard check for the exploration of difficult areas, etc, but I feel like the counters to that are a bit harsh. In a broader sense, I think that allowing a lower-level spell to help a bit encourages players to use those spell slots (which are valuable) to make a choice. Exhaustion is a good way to ask players to expend resources, but the cost doesn't have to be so harsh as to dissuade the spending of those resources. Making it a Lesser/Greater choice adds some options that players can use to decide what to do in a given situation.

One reason I feel good about this is that lower-level spell slots are arguably as useful as higher-level slots. Expanding the range of slots with which one can counter Exhaustion is a win/win. Players have more agency and the DM has expanded their ability to force resource management on the players.

[Naanomi]

Coffelok becomes much easier to pull off, but otherwise I don’t see much harm

[Trask]

One reason I feel good about this is that lower-level spell slots are arguably as useful as higher-level slots. Expanding the range of slots with which one can counter Exhaustion is a win/win. Players have more agency and the DM has expanded their ability to force resource management on the players.

That was a big part of it for me too. I like to challenge the players with things that dont always affect HP, I think traps and other things can be more fun or interesting when they inflict a status or a roleplaying caveat rather than always doing damage. Exhaustion is a great tool for this, especially exploration mechanics, but its just so darn harsh that it becomes really really annoying to remove it and you just end up not wanting to deal with it at all.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

[Speely]

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

I wouldn't be mad at this. Sure, the zerker gets off easy after a frenzy, but it costs their support a spell slot(s.) Hell, let the party plan for it and try to game the system. This is why being a DM is so awesome. We have the ability to allow rests (or not,) and that directs so much. Your healer now has one less spell slot to heal you after a big bad lands a crit. Fun!

[Trask]

My thoughts exactly. If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

And I would be glad to see one. All my players ever play are bear barbs.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I wouldn't be mad at this. Sure, the zerker gets off easy after a frenzy, but it costs their support a spell slot(s.) Hell, let the party plan for it and try to game the system. This is why being a DM is so awesome. We have the ability to allow rests (or not,) and that directs so much. Your healer now has one less spell slot to heal you after a big bad lands a crit. Fun!

It's probably worth the investment to have the Berzerker getting an extra attack with his greatsword every round. Dead enemies don't get critical hits.

[diabloblanco18]

I houserule this one. Lesser eliminates one level of Exhaustion, while Greater eliminates all levels. I've not seen this unbalance things at all, since more often than not, if players are making Exhaustion saves, there are baddies around, and every spell slot spent is less they have to deal with those baddies.

Edit: I've not had to deal with this with a Frenzy Barb in the party hehe.

I've used this house rule for a while in most of the games I run, along with one that lets PCs spend hit dice when they get healed. The only frenzy barb I've seen was before I started using the rule, though.

[CTurbo]

Yeah nobody ever plays Frenzy Barbs RAW because exhaustion is such a steep penalty.

I played a Stout Halfling Frenzy Barb with a 4 Int as a side character and his character concept was to immediately Rage+frenzy if he got attacked, but he just flat out didnt participate in a lot of encounters because of exhaustion and often slept in the Goliath Barb's bag lol while the group traveled so he did get some extra long rests.

But yeah it's way too hard to remove.

The only time I've had to implement this house rule about Lesser remove 1 level and Greater removing all levels, the Barb and Cleric had an agreement that if the Cleric was going to have to always devote a spell slot the the Barb, the Barb was going to have to pay a tithe to the Cleric's church.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I heartily condone this houserule, along with short rests removing one level of exhaustion. Have yet to be overrun with frenzy barbs

[Psikerlord]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

[Trask]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

I don't think that letting lesser restoration cure 1 rank of exhaustion will break anything. As it is now, nobody would use a greater restoration to cure it, now it might actually get cured from time to time or frequently depending on the party. It makes the exhaustion a factor that can be avoided rather than a status to be lived with, which I think is a good thing since Frenzy barbarian, while not weak, suffers in adventures without easy access to a resting place.

And even if it did "break" the Frenzy barb and make it way strong, I really dont think an entire spell and status effect should be balanced around one subclass. I think exhaustion is a neat mechanic, well implemented but under utilized by the game. This opens up a lot of possibilities for its use in traps, custom spells, or monster effects. I actually think the exhaustion mechanic could be excellent for a death system, since it very well abstractly illustrates the idea of getting progressively more debilitated in your ability to fight until you are comatose and then dead, and it requires rest, but thats a topic for another thread.

[MrStabby]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

[Vogie]

If this house rule was in effect at my table I'd definitely play a berzerker.

Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

[mephnick]

I've long had this rule and allowed Berzerkers one short rest per day to cure a level of exhaustion and still no one plays it.

The extra attack just isn't seen as very important in a game with feats, definitely not important enough to base a subclass around.

[Theodoxus]

It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

Anecdotal evidence in this thread points to this not being the case... Though even if it were, I'm not sure it would be too horrible to break lots.


Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

I'd go Life, personally. Even with a 13 Wis minimum, that's +3 HP (6 HP equivalent when raging) on a 1st level healing spell. (Assuming you're keeping both 2nd level slots for LR.) On top of Bless (meh on a barb), CW (nice), LR (perfect) and Spiritual Weapon, yeah, it competes with Frenzy, and yeah it's 2nd level - but if you're needing a force effect to damage something (ghost, perhaps?) it's there for the asking. It'll hit for crap, probably, given your lower Wis (than Str, for sure). But in a pinch...

I'd go Hill Dwarf for this build. Extra hit points, Wis boost... and it's unexpected. Pretty fun!

[Willie the Duck]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

This is also my primary concern.
Regardless of whether it is exhaustion (or exhaustion as it stands, at least), there needs to be something that the DM can throw at the party, other than waves of hit point attrition in excess of their ability to recoup, that can be used as a peril, threat, greater challenge (to justify greater reward), or big subtext sign saying, 'you are not prepared to go down this road.'


It's because of the berserker subclass and frenzy. Making frenzy too available will break lots of sh*t.

I would certainly be amenable to frenzy inducing a kind of exhaustion that can be fixed by LR. I'm less convinced that the same should be the case for going without sleep, walking across a desert, exploring the jungles of Chult in full plate, etc.


Coffelok becomes much easier to pull off, but otherwise I don’t see much harm

While further analysis since the initial alarm bells have indicated that the Coffeelock is not as ridiculously abusable as first envisioned, I hate how it throws a wrench in posited changes to the rules. I think if I were ever at the point where I was looking at a rule change and thinking "I'd like to do this, but look at what it does to Coffeelocks!" my decision would be to choose the new house rule and ditch coffeelocks. They are a neat little confluence of the rules and kinda fun to explore in the part of my mindspace that likes poking imaginary bears, but I don't honestly know of anyone who'd be crushed not to be able to play one.

[MaxWilson]

It's probably worth the investment to have the Berzerker getting an extra attack with his greatsword every round. Dead enemies don't get critical hits.

Every round except the first, you mean. He spends his bonus action on round 1 to Rage; he spends it on extra attacks on subsequent rounds.


The only time I've had to implement this house rule about Lesser remove 1 level and Greater removing all levels, the Barb and Cleric had an agreement that if the Cleric was going to have to always devote a spell slot the the Barb, the Barb was going to have to pay a tithe to the Cleric's church.

That's a neat little piece of character interaction. Good on them!

[Trask]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

I agree with the philosophy behind your argument but I dont think that a state of physical exhaustion should be on the same level as a curse, or an undead life drain. Putting it on the same level as poison and paralysis makes more sense.

And its not like its a breeze to remove. Its still 1 second level spell for each level of exhaustion.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree with the philosophy behind your argument but I dont think that a state of physical exhaustion should be on the same level as a curse, or an undead life drain. Putting it on the same level as poison and paralysis makes more sense.

And its not like its a breeze to remove. Its still 1 second level spell for each level of exhaustion.

OTOH, "Magic can replace your blood, can replace a missing limb, can replace anything but a good night's sleep"/"Magic can cure anything but staying up all night" is not outside of the genre fiction D&D vaguely emulates

[Theodoxus]

LOL - a can of Monster Energy Drink can allow you stay up all night with no (ok, few) issues. But magic? That's anathema!

[jas61292]

I have a few concerns.

I am not saying this is bad or wrong, but there are a couple of things as a DM I would want to address.

I think in this edition "recovery" in general is too easy - healing spells and hit dice, full HP recovered on a long rest... There is no incentive to keep out of damaging situations without using variant rules. There is little legacy of fights between short rests and even less after the end of the day.

Mounting exhaustion is one of the few mechanics that does add a major burden that takes time to fix. It is one of the few things that can mechanically act to create tension without the need to throw overpowered encounters in. I like that I can put my players in a position where they have to debate the trade off between another day of exhausting forced march up the mountains against more limited time to save the world when they get to their destination.

Making exhaustion too easy to shrug off for a party makes this harder.

I agree wholeheartedly. If every possible negative effect can be easily shrugged off by a cleric of a low level, you can't really use them for any lasting impact. Various curses and diseases sound cool, but due to magic, really don't work unless the party lacks any healthier.

Exhaustion is the one mechanic in the game that is there to say "mo, you cannot just shrug this off. You have to deal with it." I don't care if exhaustion is that specific mechanic, but I think there needs to be one, and in 5e, it is the only such thing.

[Willie the Duck]

LOL - a can of Monster Energy Drink can allow you stay up all night with no (ok, few) issues. But magic? That's anathema!

Well, yeah. There are all sorts of "magic can'ts" in fiction.
"magic can do anything but raise the dead" [obviously D&D doesn't hew to that one]
"magic can't make someone fall in love"
"magic can't extend your lifespan"
"magic can't this..."
"magic can't that..."

might even be a neat thread in a non 5e specific forum. :-P

[KorvinStarmast]

I have this same exact houserule because I think Exhaustion is way too harsh and they've made it too difficult to get rid of. That's two of us. One of the few 5e things that makes me gag.

[Kane0]

Not only would I play a berserker, I'd play one with 3 levels of Cleric so I could remove my own Exhaustion. Order, Forge, Death, Knowledge, and Light domains would all work with it.

That actually sounds like a pretty neat combo. Note to self: Knowledge Cleric / Frenzy Barbarian.

[CTurbo]

As I'm willing to houserule the Restorations spells to remove exhaustion more effectively as mentioned above, I would NOT allow a player to exploit it via a Cleric/Frenzy multiclass.


For those who feel like this houserule is too strong already, you can require the Restoration spells be upcast in order to work.

For example, maybe Lesser Restoration has to be cast from a 3rd level slot in order to remove 1 level of exhaustion. I could understand this.

But I already feel like a 5th level Greater Restoration spell SHOULD get rid of all exhaustion, but again, if you think it'd be more balanced to have it be cast from a 6th level slot, that's still way better than RAW.

[Kane0]

As I'm willing to houserule the Restorations spells to remove exhaustion more effectively as mentioned above, I would NOT allow a player to exploit it via a Cleric/Frenzy multiclass.


Not to worry, I'll just be a Bearbarian with PAM and/or GWM instead.

[Calimehter]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I like that exhaustion isn't just another easy low level cleric spell "fix". . . but the RAW is a bit harsh.

Should I get a chance to run again, I would have Lesser Restoration get rid of a level when combined with a short rest, while allowing Greater Restoration to get rid of a level outright [edit: brain fart, forgot that GR already did that. 😛]

I would also consider having long rests get rid of up to two (or maybe 1d3?) levels instead of just one.

[Speely]

That actually sounds like a pretty neat combo. Note to self: Knowledge Cleric / Frenzy Barbarian.

That is a VERY fun character concept.

[Wryte]

If anything, I find it strange that Greater Restoration does fix exhaustion. Restoration spells are spells that fix what's wrong with you, but when you're exhausted, nothing's wrong with you; you're just out of gas.

It doesn't matter how amazing your wrench is, you're not gonna make a car with no gas run by tightening lugnuts.

[Theodoxus]

By the same token, do you change the rest mechanic? Someone could be beaten down to making death saves, maybe come out with 2 failed and 3 passed saves, wake up after 1d4 hours of unconsciousness, take a long rest and boom - 8 hours later, they're as good as new. But if they had also taken 3 levels of exhaustion, they're still down 2?

Exhaustion, on so many levels, is the grittiest mechanic in the game - it's that jarring dissonance that is at the crux of the issue. As written, it belongs in a grim dark game, not a high fantasy one. It should have been baseline: 1 level removed with a short rest, all with a long; lesser removes 1, greater removes all. Then, under the optional rules, harsh it up along with grittier rest mechanics.

Barbarians get screwed 7 ways to Sunday. Compare baseline barbarian and druid abilities. Druids get more hp via wildshape, more uses of wildshape, become inherently more powerful in wildshape and their capstone is borderline broken outside of some very specific readied countermeasures.

Barbarians eventually get as many rages over the course of the adventuring day, but only come to parity at their capstone. Their damage is less, their hit point pool, while larger in their "caster form" pales in comparison to the druid - who in essence has dozens, eventually hundreds of temp hit points- superior to resistance in every possible way. Barbarian 'rage damage' scales so poorly, it's barely a concern when discussing Str vs Dex barbs. And don't get me started on the lack of base class support the barbarian gets vs even the most poorly thought out spell list the druid could take.

Giving Barbarians a bennie in lowering the harshness of exhaustion gives them "a nice thing." Something martials in general are still in sore need of.

[Psikerlord]

I don't think that letting lesser restoration cure 1 rank of exhaustion will break anything. As it is now, nobody would use a greater restoration to cure it, now it might actually get cured from time to time or frequently depending on the party. It makes the exhaustion a factor that can be avoided rather than a status to be lived with, which I think is a good thing since Frenzy barbarian, while not weak, suffers in adventures without easy access to a resting place.

And even if it did "break" the Frenzy barb and make it way strong, I really dont think an entire spell and status effect should be balanced around one subclass. I think exhaustion is a neat mechanic, well implemented but under utilized by the game. This opens up a lot of possibilities for its use in traps, custom spells, or monster effects. I actually think the exhaustion mechanic could be excellent for a death system, since it very well abstractly illustrates the idea of getting progressively more debilitated in your ability to fight until you are comatose and then dead, and it requires rest, but thats a topic for another thread.

I totally agree exhaustion is a good idea, expanding it out to other things (esp being reduced to zero hp as a deterrent of whackamole), and so is lesser restoration curing it.

Just change the berserker path so it doesnt rely on exhaustion to limit it. Or dont use berserker path.

[Sorlock Master]

It's a mechanic solution to a player problem.

Making exhaustion so harsh and difficult to get rid of forces players to rest on a regular basis. Ensuring they don't accidently get themselves killed by not resting.

Then there is the Barb 4 Champion 12 Cleric 4 build. Which would allow for an outrageous build with 4 Attacks per turn critting on 19s and never suffering exhaustion (3 rages and 3 lesser restos per long rest) plus first level spells for self buffs and heals, and can't be charmed or feared. Make him a Half-Orc and in 5 rounds he can pump out well over 100 (172) damage on average from crits alone, while having resistance to Slashing, Pircing, and Blugeoning damage. Keep in mind that's not factoring in GWF which would up the average even more.

[Vogie]

As I'm willing to houserule the Restorations spells to remove exhaustion more effectively as mentioned above, I would NOT allow a player to exploit it via a Cleric/Frenzy multiclass.

For those who feel like this houserule is too strong already, you can require the Restoration spells be upcast in order to work.


... But why? Barbarian is one of the few classes that get the most from NOT multiclassing. The capstone is awesome, and the internal mechanics already push Str, Con AND Dex, so going ANYTHING else is going to be really MAD.

This sounds like a really anti-fun issue, unless you're worried about some sort of martial coffeelock-esque power level (it's not)

Heck, any path of barbarian right now can go 2 levels into War cleric for bonus action attacks, up to 5/long rest based on Wisdom mod... All that Zerker's gain is having bonus weapon attacks available after that, and they can either live with the exhaustion, avoid that ability completely, or do a 3+ level dip to get rid of the exhaustion.

Would you also stop 3 level Druid dip? 6 Level Lore Bard Dip? 5 level Paladin Dip?

Actually, the paladin dip is probably a MORE potent dip because you can not only remove exhaustion via Lesser restoration, you also get Divine Smites & Channel Divinities to use while raging.

[Specter]

Because unless your party never does survival, exhaustion should be hard to shake off.

[Theodoxus]

It's a mechanic solution to a player problem.

Making exhaustion so harsh and difficult to get rid of forces players to rest on a regular basis. Ensuring they don't accidently get themselves killed by not resting.

Then there is the Barb 4 Champion 12 Cleric 4 build. Which would allow for an outrageous build with 4 Attacks per turn critting on 19s and never suffering exhaustion (3 rages and 3 lesser restos per long rest) plus first level spells for self buffs and heals, and can't be charmed or feared. Make him a Half-Orc and in 5 rounds he can pump out well over 100 (172) damage on average from crits alone, while having resistance to Slashing, Pircing, and Blugeoning damage. Keep in mind that's not factoring in GWF which would up the average even more.

And?

Sounds like a fun build. What exactly is it you fear from it? 5 rounds to get 172 damage in crits is pretty meh for a 20th level build. Heck, by 20th level, if you're still actually fighting things, you're kinda doing it wrong anyway - so might as well make them go down as quickly as possible.

I no longer try to challenge my 16th level party with 'dropping to zero'. And I have the homebrew 'drop to 0, get a level of exhaustion' in my games, so I actually have incentive to do so. But the game, at that level, isn't fun running hour plus combat marathons. So, when combat does inevitably start, I'd really rather it was over quickly.

YMMV, of course, but this really looks like more of a white room criticism than actual experience with tier 4 play.