Need Help Playing a Druid

[Stryyke]

I've played 3.5 for years but need some advice on how to build a Druid/Master of Many Forms.

Here's the situation: The campaign is pretty brutal, and every spellcaster, healer, and stealth character has been mercilessly slaughtered. Thus we have 5 melee fighting characters. I'll be joining as the 6th player.

Given the brutality, the group has basically begged me to play a healing caster. Druid is one of the coveted Tier 1 classes, so I figured that it might be necessary to utilize it's power to survive. I imagine using the Master of Many forms aspect to gain extra wild-shape changes, which I can use as "free" self-heals. Also, since the team has no scouting options, I thought I could use alternate forms to provide that service to the group too.

The problem is that I've never been a huge optimizer, so I don't really know the mechanics of how to play an optimized character. So I need advice on how to build and play the character to survive. The character will be all the stealth, all the magic, and all the healing available in the group.

ECL 11
1st party sources only

[rel]

Start by talking to your DM. Determine what house rules especially unspoken house rules are in effect. What tactics ruin their fun, what they like to see, etc. Don't be afraid to get specific; my plans are to do this, followed by this, followed by that. Will there be any problem with any of those steps?

Nothing worse than stepping up to a monster and wild shaping into a war troll only to be told 'yeah, I know the rules say you can do that but we've always played it such that you can't become a monster until you have tracked it for 3 nights and 3 days and eaten a heaping serving of its stool...'

Talk to the players, check that the GM was being honest then determine the nature of the game; how much downtime do you get, encounters per day, make up of encounters, amounts of railroading, loot levels, etc.


Now you can tailor your build to the game.

At this point, I gotta level with you: Master of Many Forms... well, it isn't great for druid. You lose casting and animal companion progression. But if you have set your heart on it...

The best advice for playing a character with polymorph type abilities is this:

Read The Monster Manuals.

That is plural. There are 5 of them and a scattering of source books as well. You need to know your best options and you need to be able to access them quickly.
When you transform you cannot slow the game down.
Create alternate character sheets for your most common forms if you must but make sure that changing forms takes no more time IRL than it does in game.

[Darrin]

It's a lot to digest, but start here:

Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook)

Some basic advice... avoid Master of Many Forms. There are much more efficient ways to heal yourself than by using wild shape. You can handle the bulk of out-of-combat healing with wands of lesser vigor (750 GP, 11 HP per charge, 11 x 50 = 550 HP). In-combat healing tends to be a losing strategy, because most healing spells can't restore HPs faster than the party can lose them. You'll probably be more effective in combat by spamming mass snake's swiftness so your meatbags just kill things quicker. If you need additional healing, you can add some via Touch of Healing (Complete Champion), Draconic Aura: Vigor (Dragon Magic/PHBII), or Spontaneous Healer (Complete Divine).

The Druid class can be tough to play because it's actually several different sub-systems, somewhat like mini-games, bolted onto each other. Most top-tier druids are not using Wild Shape to heal but to exploit the action economy, either with additional standard actions (choker, nilshai) or extra attacks (cryohydra). You can also use Wild Shape defensively by picking a form with high AC, high Dex/Con, etc.

Your animal companion is another mini-game. Pick a heavy combat scrapper, load it up with the right feats, and it should be standing toe-to-toe with your frontline meatbags.

Your spellcasting is another mini-game subsystem that contains yet another mini-game subsystem: summoning. The Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) by eggs will help you narrow down the best creatures to summon for various roles. Outside of that, see my spell advice for Druidzillas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221979-Druid-Help&p=12183941#post12183941) for ideas on what you should be casting instead of healing/summoning spells.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, for what I've gathered of your group it's probably best to keep it simple, get good raw numbers and ensure you can stay alive to carry your party through.

As mentioned, Wand of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds is the most cost-efficient means of downtime healing while Unicorns from Summon Nature's Ally IV (1d3 from SNAV and 1d4+1 from SNAVI) are the best combat healing available on these levels.

Your group seems to value the basic numbers game so use Wildshape and either Wilding Clasps + Monk's Belt (+ Greater Luminous Armor) or Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and Wild Tower Shield to pump your AC and your innately insane Wis and Con/Dex (Wildshape) to pump your raw defenses skyhigh. Add Superior Resistance (Spell Compendium) alongside perhaps Owl's Insight (Spell Compendium) and you're golden. You can effortlessly keep these up all day save for Owl's Insight, which still lasts for an hour (a dungeon buff).

Rest of your slots and gold you can use to enhance your Companion (at least get it +1 Barding) and yourself (anything buffing your casting is obviously nice).

If you have the energy, take Aberration Wildshape and learn all the amazing options it opens up with Enhance Wildshape (Spell Compendium). Too broad a topic to cover comprehensively here: luckily you can find it all in Eggynack's amazing handbook. I'll just mention Dharculus: you can be ethereal while casting onto the material plane. Great for scouting, safety AND combat.

But yeah, Druid can do it all so go ahead and round out the party singlehandedly. I do recommend against MoNF though: Druid 11 is actually a better Wildshaper thanks to spells like Enhance Wildshape, Greater Magic Fang and Greater Luminous Armor and your party really needs as many as high level spell slots as it can get. You can even handle resurrections and all that in addition to removing status ailments and hitting enemies where it hurts. MoMF seems completely redundant with 5 martials already.

[zlefin]

How have the group's healers/casters/stealth chars been getting killed off?
because a mixed group really should do better than a mass of melee fighter types; and there's plenty of ways to help ensure such chars survive.
in order to help your char survive better, it helps a lot to know what's been killing off other chars.

[Stryyke]

Thanks for all of your advice.

A shade more background, this is a campaign I was a member of for 1 1/2 years. There was a developing problem between players. We were kind of factioning against each other. I left the group about 6 months ago because I thought the group would unify without my presence. It turned out the other "faction" just got worse, and eventually quit the game. So I am rejoining.

There is no doubt that combat itself is pretty brutal. The inherent issue we've been facing is that there is no "back row" territory. When we engage in combat, it is often from every direction (including up and from the ground) at once. So there is no real way to keep anything but the heartiest characters alive. I've tried virtually every possibility short of optimizing.

That the group basically begged for a healing caster makes me think perhaps they don't have healing wands available for some reason. In the past, the campaign was pretty free with magic items (having a magic items vendor), so I have to assume they have already tried that. Edit: And the DM said the group could use a healing caster. I asked what the group needed, and that was his reply.

If Master of Many Forms is sub-optimal, I will keep to pure Druid. It kind of makes me sad, as I kinda wanted to play with it, but survival is the key.

Also, the DM's wild shape policy is spending at least 1 cumulative hour examining specimen of whatever you want to transform into. Corpses count as long as I've seen them alive and moving at least once. Inter-dimensional beings aren't terribly common, so most of those forms are out. Also, dragons have a very particular place in this setting, and are out of bounds as well.

[Goaty14]

If Master of Many Forms is sub-optimal, I will keep to pure Druid. It kind of makes me sad, as I kinda wanted to play with it, but survival is the key.

Also, the DM's wild shape policy is spending at least 1 cumulative hour examining specimen of whatever you want to transform into. Corpses count as long as I've seen them alive and moving at least once. Inter-dimensional beings aren't terribly common, so most of those forms are out. Also, dragons have a very particular place in this setting, and are out of bounds as well.

Normally it'd be worse than a straight druid 20 (don't feel bad -- only a single prestige class does better than druid 20), but either way you'd still outclass the frontliners. However, that 'wild shape policy' is crippling. You probably couldn't get 5 different forms, much less utilizing the berth of the MoMF. Either 1) Ask your DM about an interdimensional zoo or something (I mean, once druids figure out there are more animals than they've seen, then had to have grouped together to make something like that, right?) or 2) Beg your DM to use Knowledge checks as if you were identifying a creature to gain familiarity.

If neither of those work, I wouldn't even recommend playing a druid.

[eggynack]

If neither of those work, I wouldn't even recommend playing a druid.
That seems a bit extreme. A druid without wild shape at all still has a ridiculously potent spell list along with a fancy animal companion. And this druid does have wild shape. Granted, not at the typical level, but, especially if you take advantage of the animal companion in off-hours to get some study time on a decent variety of animals, you're liable to have most of the big classics covered. Dire bat for flight, fleshraker for combat, dire tortoise for top end, pretty much anything for aquatic, and a bunch of other stuff besides. Plants are obviously trickier, but, y'know, a lot of what you want is right there. I'd stay super far away from MoMF, as you say, where I'd normally say that it falls somewhere around tier two or three and that that's prolly gonna be fine if that's really what you want to do, but druid should still do its job.

Anyway, is there anything in particular you want to do? If you just want to cast really good spells, and just generally druid in solid fashion, then my handbook should indeed prove more than sufficient, but druids can do weird stuff as well. You noted a need for defense from a variety of directions, and druids are pretty good at that. Control winds can turn your surroundings into a tornado, eye of the hurricane does somewhat similar, and blizzard can shut down a hell of a lot. The simple combination of flight and some archery denial technique, which can be any of those weather effects I mentioned along with wind wall or friendly fire, can shut down a lot of approaches. At worst, you can render yourself really difficult to attack. At best, everyone can get in on the surrounded by a tornado fun.

Edit: @Darrin: Man, ya really gotta ditch flesh to salt. On a list of either really good spells or pretty mediocre ones that you don't talk up overmuch (dinosaur stampede), flesh to salt sticks out a lot. It's like a particularly mediocre fireball, treated as though it were the second coming of magic.

Double-edit: And I have to add embrace the wild. Not entirely sure why that's not on my list.

[zlefin]

Thanks for all of your advice.

A shade more background, this is a campaign I was a member of for 1 1/2 years. There was a developing problem between players. We were kind of factioning against each other. I left the group about 6 months ago because I thought the group would unify without my presence. It turned out the other "faction" just got worse, and eventually quit the game. So I am rejoining.

There is no doubt that combat itself is pretty brutal. The inherent issue we've been facing is that there is no "back row" territory. When we engage in combat, it is often from every direction (including up and from the ground) at once. So there is no real way to keep anything but the heartiest characters alive. I've tried virtually every possibility short of optimizing.

That the group basically begged for a healing caster makes me think perhaps they don't have healing wands available for some reason. In the past, the campaign was pretty free with magic items (having a magic items vendor), so I have to assume they have already tried that. Edit: And the DM said the group could use a healing caster. I asked what the group needed, and that was his reply.

If Master of Many Forms is sub-optimal, I will keep to pure Druid. It kind of makes me sad, as I kinda wanted to play with it, but survival is the key.

Also, the DM's wild shape policy is spending at least 1 cumulative hour examining specimen of whatever you want to transform into. Corpses count as long as I've seen them alive and moving at least once. Inter-dimensional beings aren't terribly common, so most of those forms are out. Also, dragons have a very particular place in this setting, and are out of bounds as well.

a lot of people want a healer [even if they don'tneed one because wands handle it better]. They just like the idea of having a healer and/or aren't aware that it's usually mechanically weak.

Even if you're being attacked from all sides, there are still ways to keep other char types alive well enough; especially if you use a decent formation. The center itself becomes the protected area, and any attempt to dive at the center would involve going past other layers. And a cleric can easily be tough enough to survive in the center anyways, as they're similar to a martial in terms of survivability anyways, even without significant optimization.

[rel]

If Master of Many Forms is sub-optimal, I will keep to pure Druid. It kind of makes me sad, as I kinda wanted to play with it, but survival is the key.

it is suboptimal compared to druid but druid is one of the strongest classes in the entire game. If you want to play MoMF then go for it. I suggest more talk with the GM though. Your character is starting at level 11, it should know a lot of forms already from previous adventures. Also bear in mind that a druid 1 MoMF 10 isn't healing the party without ready access to wands.


Also, the DM's wild shape policy is spending at least 1 cumulative hour examining specimen of whatever you want to transform into. Corpses count as long as I've seen them alive and moving at least once. Inter-dimensional beings aren't terribly common, so most of those forms are out. Also, dragons have a very particular place in this setting, and are out of bounds as well.

Haha! Totally called it! Ask about his policy on getting a new animal companion next. RaW you pray for 24 hours and get one of your choice, I'm going to guess the GM's policy involves finding the animal you want, befriending it for months then doing the ritual.

[Stryyke]

I've sort of been checking things out, and the benefits of MoMF seem to be these:

Shifter's speech allows a caster to use verbal components regardless of form

A Druid 5/ MoMF 5 would have 6 changes available, while a Druid 10 would have 4 (though it would be 5 hours rather than 10)

At ECL 10 MoMF has access to humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, and vermin forms. A Druid 11 only animals.

At ECL 10 MoMF changes form as a move action, rather than a standard action.

Do those benefits cover for the SL difference? MoMF would have 3rd lvl spells, Druid 5th. I just feel drawn to MoMF for some reason, and I'd like to use it if I can make a build that can survive.

[eggynack]

Shifter's speech allows a caster to use verbal components regardless of form.
That's not really a thing. Natural spell does this, and also does somatic components which you're still often going to need. The utility of this ability is that you can talk in wild shape, but items can bypass that issue. A pearl of speech can do it, or an amulet of freedom of speech (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a) if your DM is down on the pearl


At ECL 10 MoMF has access to humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, and vermin forms. A Druid 11 only animals.
A druid 10 can have humanoid and vermin, if you want. Not even that costly. Vermin has a number of methods (wasteland druid is a solid one) and humanoid has fangshields druid substitution levels. But, y'know, you mostly don't pick those things up cause what would you do with them? What giants or fey are you becoming, for that matter? There're a few monstrous humanoids, but, by and large, animals are quite good at beating face, and, I'm not sure, but I don't think these types offer that much non-combat utility. And, of the utility you are getting, is it better than aberrations or exalted? Not all aberration forms are all extraplanar and junk. Finding the aberrations is tricky, but it's not like finding these other types of creatures is trivial.


At ECL 10 MoMF changes form as a move action, rather than a standard action.
Mantle of the beast can change it to a swift action for 18,000 GP.


Do those benefits cover for the SL difference?
No. Most of the benefits you're listing are pretty close to meaningless. Druid can access more than enough types and such, and they get more than enough duration.


MoMF would have 3rd lvl spells, Druid 5th.
I thought you said level 11, which would mean 6th level spells. Suffice to say, high level spells are good.


I just feel drawn to MoMF for some reason, and I'd like to use it if I can make a build that can survive.

Look, if you want to make an MoMF, make an MoMF. It's a strong class, and, assuming you're actually allowed to make use of forms (cause that forms known limitation is pretty severe), you'll do fine. Wild shape is a very strong ability. But druid is stronger. Way stronger, especially with the limitations that are apparently in place here. Spells are the most powerful thing in the game, and druids do spells good.

[Malroth]

The best options to foes arriving from all directions are stealth, superior senses and battlefield control spells. Scent, Mindsight, Wall of x, web, entangle, sleet storm, any of these can turn 1 fight of 10 guys ambushing you from all direction into 5 fights of 2 guys each with time to heal and rebuff between them. On the whole the offensive adaptation avalible to a master of many forms is very good but Just being a straight druid who spends the day as a camoflauged hummingbird is WAY better for group survival.

[Twurps]

I'm not arguing MoMF's is better than druid, but it can be a lot of fun, and pretty powerful nontheless.

Should you go for MoMF's: have yourself a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-(recovered))

There's a good list of usefull creatures in there specifically tailored to the MoMF's. (who gets Ex abilities at lvl7).
On my wildshaping ranger/MoMF's I really like the 'desmodu hunting bat' (general travel, scouting), (or at later levels the 'will o wisp'), the War-troll for combat (with DR and regeneration) and some utility forms (giant crocodile for swimming, badger for tunneling, etc)

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Can't believe no one mentioned greenbound summoning here yet. Soooo worth your level one feat.

Currently playing a Druid in a combat heavy campaign where optimization is not our parties strong suit. I'm also more of an experienced GM than our current one. He stopped having us in woodlands so I prestige into Lion of Talisid, keeps spell progression, only stifles wild shape a little, full animal companion progression, trades away some of the woodland abilities for more general combat stuff. Only PrCthats supposedly "better" is planar shepherd and if your not plane hopping or dealing with manifest zones, there's not much need. Just gotta say, love that my tiger can smite evil.

[Eldariel]

Can't believe no one mentioned greenbound summoning here yet. Soooo worth your level one feat.

Currently playing a Druid in a combat heavy campaign where optimization is not our parties strong suit. I'm also more of an experienced GM than our current one. He stopped having us in woodlands so I prestige into Lion of Talisid, keeps spell progression, only stifles wild shape a little, full animal companion progression, trades away some of the woodland abilities for more general combat stuff. Only PrCthats supposedly "better" is planar shepherd and if your not plane hopping or dealing with manifest zones, there's not much need. Just gotta say, love that my tiger can smite evil.

Eh, the forestry/general abilities are practically meaningless far as the class is concerned. 99% of Druid power (exact ratio depends on the level) is tied to spellcasting, animal companion, and wildshape. Same with the "planar" abilitied of Planar Shepherd: the class is ridiculous because of Outsider wildshape WITH SPELL-LIKES and because it can use Planar Bubble on their plane of choosing getting ridiculous boons like 10 turns to every turn outside the bubble or all spells quickened/maximized/whatever.

But yes, Greenbound Summoning is about the only way in addition to Rashemi Elemental Summoning to make summons so far under the enemy level combat relevant. Wall of Thorns spam out of 1d4+1 Greenbound Wolves is pretty crazy and they have Entangles et al as well. Still you're throwing SNAIII creatures at best against SNAVI equivalent enemies so they're just SLA/Aid Another bots and blockers. Still Greenbound makes them good enough.