Eldritch Knight, but with Cleric spells?

[jaappleton]

Anything imbalanced about allowing a (SINGLE CLASSED, to prevent MC abuse) EK, but using Wisdom and Cleric spells?

It’d be open to the whole Cleric list, not the typical two school restriction of the EK. I’ve never met a DM that stuck to that two school restriction anyway, though I don’t play AL.

[DarkKnightJin]

There's a Fighter archetype that does this on MFoV. I think they retooled the other archetype features as well, to make em fit a bit more into the cleric-y side of it.

[CantigThimble]

Anything imbalanced about allowing a (SINGLE CLASSED, to prevent MC abuse) EK, but using Wisdom and Cleric spells?

It’d be open to the whole Cleric list, not the typical two school restriction of the EK. I’ve never met a DM that stuck to that two school restriction anyway, though I don’t play AL.

Hmm, honestly I don't think so. The main risk of breaking things comes from self-only buffs that aren't designed to be easily available to a heavily armored front liner, like shield and blur, but everything the cleric has is designed to be used by frontline heavily armored combatants already. Every way that I can think of to break cleric spells using fighter abilities is already done in more powerful ways by wizard spells. Clerics don't even get the blade cantrips. The only really powerful cleric spells you get are healing word, spiritual weapon and spirit guardians, but weapon and guardians are pretty high level for a 1/3rd caster to want to use and are only really good with a pure wisdom build anyway.

[jaappleton]

Hmm, honestly I don't think so. The main risk of breaking things comes from self-only buffs that aren't designed to be easily available to a heavily armored front liner, like shield and blur, but everything the cleric has is designed to be used by frontline heavily armored combatants already. Every way that I can think of to break cleric spells using fighter abilities is already done in more powerful ways by wizard spells. Clerics don't even get the blade cantrips. The only really powerful cleric spells you get are healing word, spiritual weapon and spirit guardians, but weapon and guardians are pretty high level for a 1/3rd caster to want to use and are only really good with a pure wisdom build anyway.

This was pretty much my line of thought.

Yes, I get Shield Of Faith. But otherwise I’d have Shield. I get Spirit Guardians, but give up Fireball.

I can heal a tiny bit, yes, but I think going for the Cleric spell list loses quite a bit as opposed to the Wizard list.

But it fits my character so much better that I think it’s worth it.

[jaappleton]

There's a Fighter archetype that does this on MFoV. I think they retooled the other archetype features as well, to make em fit a bit more into the cleric-y side of it.

Full Disclosure:

I’m good friend with the Knuckle, DracoKnight.

I really like their stuff. But EKs lv10 feature is.... I like it. A lot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

and are only really good with a pure wisdom build anyway.
I guess one can do a pure-Wis "Cleric Knight" build if you pick up Shillelagh somewhere, so not implausible...still, you get few enough spells I don't think it's worth worrying about.

[nickl_2000]

I guess one can do a pure-Wis "Cleric Knight" build if you pick up Shillelagh somewhere, so not implausible...still, you get few enough spells I don't think it's worth worrying about.

This would even be mitigated by the need to have decent strength to be able to move in armor (or be a dwarf).

[CTurbo]

I'm imagining a level 20 EK with 4 attacks, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians from its highest slot. All the extra ASIs could easily get a great Wis score too and built in Con saves to boot.

Of course this is extreme best case scenario but still.

Even after all that, I'd allow it because I like fun twists like this.

[samcifer]

There's a Fighter archetype that does this on MFoV. I think they retooled the other archetype features as well, to make em fit a bit more into the cleric-y side of it.

I'd like to look that over. Do you have the link to it?

[MrStabby]

It is pretty much fine. For me the big difference between spells on a cleric and on an EK is just that you are much more likely to pass concentration with an EK. In terms of power you are only getting spells that a cleric was expected to have already got several levels previously.

As with a lot of these things the ones to watch out for are the bonus action spells - the ability to cast a spell and use the attack action is pretty solid.

Sanctuary is less good
Shield of faith will remain a solid replacement for shield
Healing word is just as good as on a cleric
Prayer of healing is interesting as it lets a party with no "healer" heal - depending on composition/style it could make a big difference
Spiritual weapon is worse (if playing with feats) as the fighter should be able to pick up ways of getting a bonus attack pretty easily if they want it

Beacon of hope is a bit better as you might be a dedicated front liner, still not exciting
Spirit guardians is a bit better as it pulls you into a space where you make Con saves so proficiency helps. On the other hand this is all so late level that I wouldn't worry about it.



Frankly looking at the spell lists I would say it looks a little underpowered - I would be tempted to take a domain as well, and one with good low level spells.

[ZenBear]

I made a subclass for just this purpose a long time ago.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423152-Divine-Subclasses-Fighter-and-Rogue-(PEACH)

[ImproperJustice]

Could a Paladin acheive what you are trying to do better?

[Willie the Duck]

Could a Paladin acheive what you are trying to do better?

The existence of the paladin is undoubtedly why this doesn't exist (or fighter with magic initiate:cleric of some kind, there are lots of ways to be a martial dipping your toes in the water, so-to-speak). As to better, well, there's a reason everyone doesn't always pick paladin. EK has a decent niche, as having half of their expendable resources be short rest recharging (action surge, second wind) and half long rest recharging (their spells). There's legitimate space to want that, but with a cleric instead of wizard feel (kind of like the people who want an arcane paladin-analogue).

[Spiritchaser]

Anything imbalanced about allowing a (SINGLE CLASSED, to prevent MC abuse) EK, but using Wisdom and Cleric spells?

It’d be open to the whole Cleric list, not the typical two school restriction of the EK. I’ve never met a DM that stuck to that two school restriction anyway, though I don’t play AL.

My biggest concern would actually be the first level spell bless.

It’s something you can “nearly always” have up, and which is, on its own, a big slice of any to hit roll.

Plus you can self buff away a big chunk of the GWM penalty, and with archery you can almost eliminate the SS penalty.

I don’t think this is a non-starter, but an EK running bless could be really strong.

[Willie the Duck]

My biggest concern would actually be the first level spell bless.

It’s something you can “nearly always” have up, and which is, on its own, a big slice of any to hit roll.

Plus you can self buff away a big chunk of the GWM penalty, and with archery you can almost eliminate the SS penalty.

I don’t think this is a non-starter, but an EK running bless could be really strong.

I've had a wis-pumped, int-dumped EK with MI (guidance, toll the dead, bless). It worked pretty well. Being able to do it more than 1/day would make it better, but giving up shield and absorb elements would be a harsh tradeoff.

[Spiritchaser]

giving up shield and absorb elements would be a harsh tradeoff.

Oh you’re right, that’s definitely a fair point, though part of the efficiency of bless is that it counts for a lot of durability too.

[Specter]

I see nothing breakable.

[jaappleton]

Could a Paladin acheive what you are trying to do better?

I wanted to address this, as its quite similar in concept. Warrior with Holy Magic, right?

Unfortunately there's already a Paladin in the party. And he's sword and board, strength based.

Since we're merely a party of two (The DM has been great about tailoring stuff to our party composition), having both of us be Str and Cha based is... Far less than ideal. While the DM is great about crafting encounters to suit us, having both of us be the same class isn't really a good idea.

Plus both of us having basically the same spells isn't great. Cleric and Paladin are similar, but different enough.

I suppose I could ask about changing the Paladin from Charisma based casting to Wisdom based. I don't see much harm in that, and its not like we'd be able to double dip the Aura and get +Cha and +Wis to saves. Its still the same Aura, so it can't be used twice, regardless of stat.

Though I do wonder if Paladin is strictly superior to my proposed EK Cleric...

[CantigThimble]

I wanted to address this, as its quite similar in concept. Warrior with Holy Magic, right?

Unfortunately there's already a Paladin in the party. And he's sword and board, strength based.

Since we're merely a party of two (The DM has been great about tailoring stuff to our party composition), having both of us be Str and Cha based is... Far less than ideal. While the DM is great about crafting encounters to suit us, having both of us be the same class isn't really a good idea.

Plus both of us having basically the same spells isn't great. Cleric and Paladin are similar, but different enough.

I suppose I could ask about changing the Paladin from Charisma based casting to Wisdom based. I don't see much harm in that, and its not like we'd be able to double dip the Aura and get +Cha and +Wis to saves. Its still the same Aura, so it can't be used twice, regardless of stat.

Though I do wonder if Paladin is strictly superior to my proposed EK Cleric...

Basically I think it comes down to if you want to be more focused on the smiting or be a physical fighter who is bolstered by divine magic.

[DanyBallon]

I’ve create my own version of the Templar, a divine EK.


Templars are martial characters that have been gifted with their deity’s blessing. They blend divine magic with martial prowess. They often act as guard within a church organisation, or roam the world in order to defend their deity interest.

Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the wizard spell list.

Cantrips
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn an additional cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

Spell Slots
The Templar Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

For example, if you know the 1st-level spell cure wounds and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast cure wounds using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher
You know three 1st-level cleric spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the cleric spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Templar Spellcasting table shows when you learn more cleric spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the cleric spells you know with another spell of your choice from the cleric spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.

Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells, since you learn your spells through study and memorization. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a cleric spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier


Divine Domain
At 3rd level, choose a domain associated with your deity, you can add the domain spell list to the list of spell available for you to choose from.

If you have a domain spell that doesn’t appear on the cleric spell list, the spell is nonetheless a cleric spell for you.

Weapon Bond
At 3rd level, you learn a ritual that creates a magical bond between yourself and one weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. The weapon must be within your reach throughout the ritual, at the conclusion of which you touch the weapon and forge the bond.

Once you have bonded a weapon to yourself, you can’t be disarmed of that weapon unless you are incapacitated. If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand.

You can have up to two bonded weapons, but can summon only one at a time with your bonus action. If you attempt to bond with a third weapon, you must break the bond with one of the other two.

Magic Weapon
Starting at 7th level your devotion let you infuse your weapon with divine magic. Once per rest, as a bonus action, you may enchant your bonded weapon, it gets +1 to Attack rolls and Damage rolls, this effect last for 10 minutes. At 16th level the bonus increase to +2.

Baneful Strike
At 10th level, your indefectible conviction in your deity affects the morale of your opponents when you hit them. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw, if it fails, the creature must roll 1d4 and subtract the result from its next attack or saving throws.

Divine Resurgence
At 15th level, when you use Second Wind, you add your Wisdom modifier to the total hit points you recover and you may expend 1 spell slot and choose a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) within 60ft that you can see. Those creatures are also healed for the same amount.

Chosen Warrior
Your deity graces you with uncanny prowess in combat.

Beginning at 18th level, you add your charisma modifier to your attack roll and saving throws.

Asyou can see, there are similarities between Zenbear’s version and mine, and I believe, it came from the fact we both contributed on the homebrew forum in the same topic about divine fighter :smallbiggrin:

[Temperjoke]

Why not a War Cleric, then you and the paladin could have arguments about who's the better holy warrior?

[ImproperJustice]

I think I get the idea more and more.
You want to be 75% Fighter and 25%caster like the EK. (Or 66/33 to be more accurate).

So I wonder then, if we say you hit 12th level as the end point of your campaign as a Level 8 Fighter / level 4 Cleric.

As a Fighter you have:
All weapon and armor proficiencies
Fighting Style
Second Wind (1d10 +8)
Action Surge
Extra Attack
Three ASIs
Subclass Features (2)

As a Cleric you would get
Channel Divinity
Domain Features (2)-significant
An ASI
Ritual Casting
Four Cantrips
4 1st level slots and a 3 2nd level slots
From the full cleric list + domain spells (4+wisdom prepared spells a day)

Vs. Templar

All weapon and armor proficiencies
Fighting Style
Better Second Wind
Action Surge
Extra Attack (3 times)
4 ASIs
Indomitable
Subclass Features (3)
3 Cantrips
4 1st level slots, and 3 second level slots from a list of 9 spells.


The two builds look fairly similar but emphasize different elements. One relies on front loaded features and a little more robust casting vs. the other being a heavier hitter (3 attacks, with more stringent casting).

[CTurbo]

Why not a War Cleric, then you and the paladin could have arguments about who's the better holy warrior?

lol I don't think that's an argument a War Cleric wants to have with a Paladin

[Vogie]

Could a Paladin acheive what you are trying to do better?

I'm of the opinion that all of the pieces should be interchangeable. If someone wants to play a paladin with the wizard spell list, a "Spellfist" "Grey Warden" or whatever, they should just as easily do so.

Oath of the Ancients Paladin with the Druid Spell List? Sure.

[jaappleton]

I'm of the opinion that all of the pieces should be interchangeable. If someone wants to play a paladin with the wizard spell list, a "Spellfist" "Grey Warden" or whatever, they should just as easily do so.

Oath of the Ancients Paladin with the Druid Spell List? Sure.

But then you get into some other issues.

The bonus Oath spells are supposed to supplement and compliment the flavor of the archetype to help give it identity.

If you instead remove the whole Paladin list and give them access to the first five levels of a... Let's say Cleric.

Is anything inherently imbalanced? Likely not. You lose the Smite spells like Thunderous and Banishing Smite. But you gain things like Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, etc. I'd say its fairly even.

But if you take out the Paladin list in place of the Wizard list... Shield, Absorb Elements, Fireball, Blur, etc. It becomes a different conversation. Now you have a Paladin capable of good AoE and great single target damage, while having Lay on Hands to heal.

I'm all for taking an existing archetype and replacing the bonus spells granted by their Oath, Patron, Domain, what have you to make it more fitting to the flavor of the character. Replacing their entire vanilla list? That needs to be carefully considered.

Cleric and Druid, I think, are fairly interchangeable. No real big loss or gain by letting them swap.

Wizard... IMO, they just have access to too many spells on their list. Too many. They get nearly everything except healing and revival magic, and that's just too much.

[Vogie]

Wizard... IMO, they just have access to too many spells on their list. Too many. They get nearly everything except healing and revival magic, and that's just too much.

There's a reason that EKs are restricted to largely choosing spells from the evocation and abjuration trees, and ATs are largely confined to the enchantment and illusion trees.

I'm not saying everyone gets everything at all times, I'm just saying they should be interchangeable. The rider of "Within reason" is assumed.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm of the opinion that all of the pieces should be interchangeable. If someone wants to play a paladin with the wizard spell list, a "Spellfist" "Grey Warden" or whatever, they should just as easily do so.

Oath of the Ancients Paladin with the Druid Spell List? Sure.

It's a neat concept, but I think it safe to say that it isn't. Spells and class features interact in different ways. Shillelagh being a great example -- in the hands of a druid, it is an okay option (mitigated by the low-AC druid really not wanting to be in melee most of the time and moon druids in particular having a usually better melee option from lvl 2 onwards). To a nature cleric, it is acceptable, but doesn't really scale, so is mostly and early-game benefit. To a ranger-pretty darn good, but costs and ASI. If a paladin had access to it (on their spell list, so Cha-based), well then forget hexblades or Str 20 paladins (barring PAM builds or the like), we have a new over-analyzed build in town.

[jaappleton]

There's a reason that EKs are restricted to largely choosing spells from the evocation and abjuration trees, and ATs are largely confined to the enchantment and illusion trees.

I'm not saying everyone gets everything at all times, I'm just saying they should be interchangeable. The rider of "Within reason" is assumed.

Its funny you mention that, I meant to include the EK and AT in my post. I believe that due to their casting progression, giving them access to their entire list (as opposed to the two school restriction) is not imbalancing.

[Vogie]

It's a neat concept, but I think it safe to say that it isn't. Spells and class features interact in different ways. Shillelagh being a great example -- in the hands of a druid, it is an okay option (mitigated by the low-AC druid really not wanting to be in melee most of the time and moon druids in particular having a usually better melee option from lvl 2 onwards). To a nature cleric, it is acceptable, but doesn't really scale, so is mostly and early-game benefit. To a ranger-pretty darn good, but costs and ASI. If a paladin had access to it (on their spell list, so Cha-based), well then forget hexblades or Str 20 paladins (barring PAM builds or the like), we have a new over-analyzed build in town.

You mean every third tomelock prior to the release of the Hexblade UA? It was already a thing. They'd go a level or two in fighter or paladin for weapon & armor proficiencies, then tomelock to Shillelagh things to death.

This is a "new over-analyzed build" in the same way that each new iPhone is the New Hotness, showcasing the features flagship Android phones had 2 years prior.


The king is dead, long live the king

[Willie the Duck]

You mean every third tomelock prior to the release of the Hexblade UA? It was already a thing. They'd go a level or two in fighter or paladin for weapon & armor proficiencies, then tomelock to Shillelagh things to death.

And miss out on multi-attack (SCAG cantrips being a wrench in any works, but a separate issue), and either have light armor and thus really not want to be in melee, or as you say dip into another class (Warlocks have enough trouble getting to that 3rd spell/SR. delaying their progression for a fighter dip is a nontrivial distraction).


This is a "new over-analyzed build" in the same way that each new iPhone is the New Hotness, showcasing the features flagship Android phones had 2 years prior.

The king is dead, long live the king

I have no idea what point you think you are making. Do you disagree that giving paladins routine and easy access to a charisma-based shillelagh would be a big shakeup in the game? Isn't the multiclass similar-analogue (a 1 level hexblade dip) already being a rather loud bit of chatter in paladin optimization discussions? Even more regardless, doesn't this actually support the point that spell lists are not interchangeable and interact with different classes in different ways?

[Vogie]

And miss out on multi-attack (SCAG cantrips being a wrench in any works, but a separate issue), and either have light armor and thus really not want to be in melee, or as you say dip into another class (Warlocks have enough trouble getting to that 3rd spell/SR. delaying their progression for a fighter dip is a nontrivial distraction).

I have no idea what point you think you are making. Do you disagree that giving paladins routine and easy access to a charisma-based shillelagh would be a big shakeup in the game? Isn't the multiclass similar-analogue (a 1 level hexblade dip) already being a rather loud bit of chatter in paladin optimization discussions? Even more regardless, doesn't this actually support the point that spell lists are not interchangeable and interact with different classes in different ways?

Yes, I disagree. 100%
Being loud doesn't mean it's bad, just that it's loud.

Do I go normal paladin?
Do I go Druidin, losing all smite spells and being locked into clubs & quarterstaves?
Do I do a 1 level dip in Hexblade for any one handed weapon?
Do I go 3 levels in Hexblade for 2 handed weapons?
These are meaningful conversations and interesting decisions.

This is all the point BECAUSE spell lists interact with different classes in different ways.

[MeeposFire]

This would even be mitigated by the need to have decent strength to be able to move in armor (or be a dwarf).

Or pick up the mobile feat. That gives you a bonus to speed that fully offsets teh speed penalty from wearing heavy armor with low str.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'd like to look that over. Do you have the link to it?

Here it is. The Hospitaler (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2018/04/hospitaler.html)
I'm.. not to impressed with the name, but eh.
You can tweak that any way you want it. You can call it a 'Doomknight' if you want to. It just.. Won't really cover what it does.