If an Ooze managed to get an Intelligence Score...

[Durzan]

If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?

Asking mainly out of curiosity... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew, but the question still stands).

[Malimar]

If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?

Asking mainly out of curiosity... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew, but the question still stands).

Dungeonscape's Sentry Ooze template grants an Int score. It specifically calls out "No longer mindless", but grants a +4 bonus to Will saves vs mind-affecting.

Last time I asked here, the consensus was "Mindless" and "no Intelligence score" are synonymous, so the general rule seems to be that if a creature gains an Intelligence score then it loses Mindless.

[The Viscount]

I would say no. Oozes are like Vermin in that their immunity to mind affecting effects stems from being mindless and having no int, not from a simple immunity like Constructs and Undead.
The closest thing I have to textual support is the Sentry Ooze template, which grants an intelligence score and removes the mindless trait. This certainly seems enough to guide an overall ruling on the matter, though someone who is arguing from strictest RAW may say otherwise.

[Necroticplague]

If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score (or if there was a Ooze creature entry, legit or homebrew, with an intelligence score), would it retain its immunity to mind-affecting effects like Undead and Constructs?No.

An ooze's immunity comes from the Mindless ability. If we look under Intelligence, it says this:


. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.
So a creature with Int isn't mindless. Thus, it doesn't have those immunities.

[frogglesmash]

Ooze Masters (Masters of the Wild), and Reason Stealers (MMII) both retain their immunity to mind affecting effects. However those are both from 3.0 sources, so make of that what you will.

[Nifft]

IMHO it's quite reasonable to remove the Mindless-granted immunity when a creature gains an Int score, but RAW those seem to be separate things, and a normal Ooze thus gains immunity from two separate sources:
- Source one: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities
- Source two: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType

Furthermore, due to poor editing, the Ooze traits say:



Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).


Since the immunity clause isn't dependent on the no-Intelligence clause, removing the former would not negate the latter.

It should have read like this:



Mindless: Because oozes have no Intelligence score, they gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (including charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).



It should be the case that the ooze traits are merely repeating / summarizing the nonability text, and that the mind-affecting immunity has a single source (intelligence nonability).

[Psyren]

It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience sapience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.

Pathfinder has Coaxing Spell to help your enchanter deal with oozes and vermin also.

[Nifft]

It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.

Totally agree. In practice, it's not very relevant.

Still, the thread doesn't mention any particular mechanism, so it might be technically relevant (even if any sane DM might tend to ignore that technicality).

[Psyren]

Totally agree. In practice, it's not very relevant.

Still, the thread doesn't mention any particular mechanism, so it might be technically relevant (even if any sane DM might tend to ignore that technicality).

Yeah there's probably a corner case out there somewhere, though I'm not aware of any myself.

[Nifft]

Yeah there's probably a corner case out there somewhere, though I'm not aware of any myself.

The OP mentions homebrew, so knowledge of official sources might not be sufficient.

[Goaty14]

A summoning ooze (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=5) has an INT score.

[ViperMagnum357]

There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.

[Nifft]

There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.

That is the reasonable thing to do.

I just suspect it's not what RAW actually says.

[Thurbane]

It tends to be moot - most of the things that grant sentience sapience also strip away mind-affecting immunity.

As loathe as I am to point out stat blocks as potential RAW, I'm just putting this here for consideration. Make of it what you will.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a


Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk CR 12
Fiendish gelatinous cube monk 10
LE Huge ooze (extraplanar)
Init -4; Senses blindsight 60 ft.; Listen -1, Spot +8
Languages None

AC 6, touch 6, flat-footed 6; Deflect Arrows
(-2 size, -4 Dex, +2 class)
hp 193 (14 HD); DR 10/magic
Immune critical hits, electricity, flanking, gaze attacks, illusions, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), normal disease, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stunning, visual effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight
Resist cold 20, fire 20; improved evasion; SR 19
Fort +16, Ref +4, Will +5 (+7 against enchantments)

Speed 45 ft. (9 squares)
Melee slam +9 (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
Melee unarmed strike +9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
Melee unarmed strike +9/+9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) with flurry of blows
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp +19
Atk Options Improved Trip, Stunning Fist; acid, paralysis, smite good 1/day (+14 damage), ki strike (lawful, magic)
Special Actions engulf, wholeness of body (heal 20/day)

Abilities Str 12, Dex 3, Con 26, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1
SA acid, engulf, paralysis, smite good 1/day (+14 damage), ki strike (lawful, magic)
SQ slow fall 50 ft., transparent
Feats Alertness, Deflect ArrowsB, Improved Toughness, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Inured to Energy (cold), Inured to Energy (fire), Iron Will, Stunning FistB
Skills Hide -12, Listen -1, Spot +8

Acid (Ex) The fiendish gelatinous cube's body produces a corrosive substance. Any creature that strikes or touches the cube with its body, or that grapples it, automatically takes 1d6 points of acid damage. A creature takes damage from this ability only once per turn. This cube's acid does not harm metal or stone.

Engulf (Ex) The fiendish gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The cube merely moves over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the cube, but any creature that does so is not entitled to a saving throw. A creature that does not attempt an attack of opportunity must succeed on a DC 14 Reflex save or be engulfed. On a success, it is pushed back or aside (opponent's choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube's paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.

Paralysis (Ex) Anyone hit by the cube's slam or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Transparent (Ex) Fiendish gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice the cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.

There are a few oozes with an Int, like the Conflagration Ooze in MM3. I do not think we ever came to a conclusion about an immunity, though-seems most people have ruled it vulnerable once you lose Mindless.

Here's some more examples:


Assassin Jelly: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040916a) Int 10; listed as immune to mind effects
Conflgration Ooze MM3: Int 9; not listed as immune to mind effects
Living Ferroplasm: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030725d) Int 8; not listed as immune to mind effects
Ooze, Cesspit (Cty): Int 7; listed as immune to mind effects
Summoning Ooze (MM3): Int 10, not listed as immune to mind effects

...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

[Blue Jay]

I would personally rule that they keep the immunity, just because I think they're supposed to be completely bizarre and incomprehensible. Also, if someone wanted to play an ooze as a PC, I'd let them keep immunity to mind-affecting, just because oozes are already mechanically challenged, and taking away one of their few nice things seems mean.

But I was never very clear on the RAW/RAI for this. It's such a narrow, specific topic that was probably really low on the designers' priority list, so I doubt that it was really fully thought out. And, if it was, I'll bet you can find cases where different writers or designers wrote with different assumptions.

[Thurbane]

I would personally rule that they keep the immunity, just because I think they're supposed to be completely bizarre and incomprehensible. Also, if someone wanted to play an ooze as a PC, I'd let them keep immunity to mind-affecting, just because oozes are already mechanically challenged, and taking away one of their few nice things seems mean.

I'd probably rule that way at my table.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a trait of the ooze type, not significantly different from the similar immunity that Constructs and Undead get. Yes, I am aware it's specifically called out as Mindless and linked to Int or lack thereof, but as you can see from my post above, the RAW is fairly open for interpretation. It's firmly in "Ask your DM" territory IMHO, unless a monster entry calls out otherwise.

[Durzan]

Clarification, this is both RAW and RAI in nature. Seems like RAW is contradictory on a general consensus... as some of you sourced oozes with intelligence scores that had no immunities to mine-affecting effects, while others did.

[OgresAreCute]

...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

Can I sig this?

[Thurbane]

Can I sig this?

Absolutely. :smallwink:

[Blue Jay]

As loathe as I am to point out stat blocks as potential RAW, I'm just putting this here for consideration. Make of it what you will.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a




Here's some more examples:


Assassin Jelly: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040916a) Int 10; listed as immune to mind effects
Conflgration Ooze MM3: Int 9; not listed as immune to mind effects
Living Ferroplasm: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030725d) Int 8; not listed as immune to mind effects
Ooze, Cesspit (Cty): Int 7; listed as immune to mind effects
Summoning Ooze (MM3): Int 10, not listed as immune to mind effects

...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

Well, to be fair to the designers, they don't always list out all the creature's abilities in the stat block. In fact, if you look at the three you've listed here that aren't called out as immune to mind-affecting, none of them has their other type traits spelled out, either: for example, none of them has "immune to poison" or "not subject to critical hits" listed, but presumably nobody disputes that they still have these type traits. They just have "ooze traits" listed as shorthand.

So there aren't any oozes that unambiguously lack immunity to mind-affecting effects (except oozes with the Sentry Ooze template, of course). In light of that, I think the balance of the evidence is in favor of intelligent oozes being immune to mind-affecting.

----

A bit of a tangent: there are four creature types (construct, elemental, ooze and undead) that usually have their type traits listed in the "Special Qualities" box in that shorthand form. Usually, taking a template that changes your type means you give up your old type traits (here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeandType)), but since these four types have their type traits listed as special qualities, and most templates have language that says you get to keep all your special qualities, these four creature types get to keep their original type traits.

EDIT: Creatures of the plant type also have their type traits listed in the Special Qualities box. I missed that one.

[Jay R]

Since they exist only as a DM's unique invention, you'd need to ask the DM who created and used them.

[Blue Jay]

Since they exist only as a DM's unique invention, you'd need to ask the DM who created and used them.

There are oozes with Intelligence scores in official sources, dude. We've been talking about them over the past several posts here.

[Jay R]

There are oozes with Intelligence scores in official sources, dude. We've been talking about them over the past several posts here.

Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
"If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
"... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.

Of course for something in an official source, read the official source.

There are only two reason for something to have immunity to mind-affecting effects.

1. Because it has no Intelligence score, or
2. Because it has been given that ability explicitly.
If it's in a sourcebook, and has an Intelligence score, then check the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly.

But back to the original question - an ooze that managed to get an intelligence score. That means one that didn't come with one in the sourcebook. And the example is homebrew.

In that case, just like the other, you check with the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly. The only change is that the source is the DM.

[Blue Jay]

Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
"If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
"... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.

You cut out the part of the question that asked for examples of intelligent oozes from official sources.

But even if we ignore that, how does "official oozes with Intelligence scores retain immunity" not answer the question asked?

Also note that some of the examples discussed were oozes that "managed to get Int scores" from templates: there was a gelatinous cube with the Fiendish template, and then there's the Sentry Ooze template as a counter-example.

There's also the Dragon magazine spell awaken ooze which takes away the immunity, but changes type to Aberration.

So it's just wrong to say that they only exist as unique DM inventions.

[frogglesmash]

Yes, but that wasn't the question asked.
"If an ooze managed to get an intelligence score...?"
"... and because I've seen at least one Ooze that had an intelligence score (granted, it was homebrew...)..."

If an ooze "managed to get an Intelligence score," that means that it didn't have one originally, when taken from the sourcebook.

Of course for something in an official source, read the official source.

There are only two reason for something to have immunity to mind-affecting effects.

1. Because it has no Intelligence score, or
2. Because it has been given that ability explicitly.
If it's in a sourcebook, and has an Intelligence score, then check the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly.

But back to the original question - an ooze that managed to get an intelligence score. That means one that didn't come with one in the sourcebook. And the example is homebrew.

In that case, just like the other, you check with the source to see if it's been given that ability explicitly. The only change is that the source is the DM.

Reason Stealers actually gain and lose their Int score repeatedly.

[Durzan]

Reason Stealers actually gain and lose their Int score repeatedly.

Ha ha... that sounds like a fun monster to play with as DM.