Warlock's hideous blow

[Woland]

I recently purchased the complete arcane and decided to roll a warlock. I liked the idea of a self-sufficient hybrid of melee and magic that worked without a lot of the awkwardness of other warrior/mage type classes. (The synthesis of physical and magical damage with added status effects from hideous blow really seemed pretty fun)

Anyway, looking over the warlock, my DM noticed that the hideous blow damage was pretty much the same as a rogue's sneak attack damage without having to deny the target its dexterity. He decided that it scaled too well versus the rogue, as well as some fighters, and so he disallowed the melee portion of the damage to balance it.

I know some say the warlock is underpowered over all, but my DM seems to believe that it's too powerful with hideous blow.

My question is this - why is the eldritch damage of a warlock's hideous blow the same as a rogue's sneak attack bonus? Is it because the rogue is balanced out in other areas? The skill-monkey aspect?

I'd really like to employ melee damage into my warlock's fighting. If someone can explain to me how hideous blow is balanced vs. rogues, (and to an extent fighters,) perhaps I can convince my DM to re-implement the ability at full power. I know certain things are imbalanced in D&D, so I'm not crossing my fingers for this, but if there's something I'm not seeing I'd really like to know what it is.

Thanks,

-Woland

[Fax Celestis]

IIRC, Hideous Blow is a standard action and therefore you can only acquire it's damage once in a round. A rogue, with the TWF tree, can make up to eight (sixteen if you're a thri-kreen or diopsid with the MWF tree) attacks in a round, each adding sneak attack damage (to the tune of 8d6 SA per swing, or 128d6 Sneak Attack, assuming they all hit).

Hideous Blow, therefore, is worse than Sneak Attack.

[SadisticFishing]

The rogue can make multiple attacks each round, adding the Sneak Attack damage on each one. The warlock, with Hideous Blow, doesn't get the extra damage dice more than once. Not just that, she can't attack more than once a round, which ends up losing a lot of damage at higher levels.

Eldritch Glaive may be what you're looking for, it's in Dragon Magic. Look at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=820872 for ways to use and abuse it.

[Woland]

I see. Well, my DM is treating standard action abilities as melee attacks. By that I mean that for each extra attack given by level, a character can use that many more spells, abilities etc, with similar declining benefits.

[Tengu]

I liked the idea of a self-sufficient hybrid of melee and magic that worked without a lot of the awkwardness of other warrior/mage type classes.

I think that Duskblade from PHB2 might be what are you looking for. Warlock, unless your party faces a lot of encounters per day, is simply a poor class with limited options.

[SadisticFishing]

I see. Well, my DM is treating standard action abilities as melee attacks. By that I mean that for each extra attack given by level, a character can use that many more spells, abilities etc, with similar declining benefits.

Eeep. This is a horrible idea. Weakens melee classes FAR too much.

[Woland]

I think that Duskblade from PHB2 might be what are you looking for. Warlock, unless your party faces a lot of encounters per day, is simply a poor class with limited options.

How so, exactly? It seems to be a solid class with a bunch of ways to survive and a resource of fairly potent abilities that don't run out. What am I missing that makes a warlock so weak?

[Woland]

Eeep. This is a horrible idea. Weakens melee classes FAR too much.

Really? Well, it doesn't apply to absolutely everything. I meant more that melee abilities with magic/other effects could be performed with all attacks on a full-round action if they didn't have specific charges (true strike's 'on your next attack' thing wouldn't apply to all attacks for instance). Not pure mage spellcasting or anything. Sorry, should have been more specific

[SadisticFishing]

Even then, the game is balanced as it is for a reason. You shouldn't be able to Strike (ToB) 2-3 times a round.

Warlock isn't as weak as people make it seem - but very little in D&D is. It just takes careful planning and taking 3 levels in Hellfire Warlock.

[Woland]

Would it be okay to limit the standard action thing to the warlock class to balance this whole issue out?

Perhaps make it so that a full round attack could be made, but the eldritch blast portion would just count for the first attack. Or give increasing to-hit penalties with the eldritch blast touch attack throughout the round.

I don't want to have to put points into a prestige class to validate a class that seems pretty fun on its own. Maybe there's some way around it?

Edit: here's an idea. Make eldritch blast ignore spell resistance. It would be a decent hook to the class. Pure damage - not much, but enough to hurt in situations where certain types of damage are blocked out.

Obviously, not all these suggestions would be added, that would overpower the class. I'm just trying to find a way to make the warlock a solid, fairly versatile arsenal that would be useful for all situations while not being the best for any of them.

[Tengu]

How so, exactly? It seems to be a solid class with a bunch of ways to survive and a resource of fairly potent abilities that don't run out. What am I missing that makes a warlock so weak?

The "does not run out" part gets useless at levels 5+ (and probably lower too) where casters do not use up all of their memorized spells, unless there have been much more encounters than 4 a day. His damage is also below par, unless you take Hellfire Warlock or a similar prestige class.

Basically, what is warlock's role in the party? What can he do that other classes cannot, and usually more effectively? It's a decent solo class, but does not contribute a lot to a party.

Also, warlock is not really a gish (fighter/mage), since his only martial ability is the subpar Hideous Blow - it's like Eldritch Blast, but with melee range (remember that it provokes AoO!), lower chance to hit (normal attack instead of a touch attack), and slightly higher damage.

Now, with the houserules your DM is using, warlock indeed is better in melee than rogue (apart from the AoO thing) - but both of those classes suffer from lower AC and HP than ordinary melee characters, making them rather fragile. And a pile of d6s might look impressive, but it's usually less damage than purely physical types are doing.

[Woland]

Would you have a suggestion for balancing it out so that the eldritch/melee damage is still in there with the house rules, but it doesn't surpass a rogue?

[SadisticFishing]

Well the damage a Hell fire Warlock can do is incredible if built right - remember that Eldritch Blast is a level 1 SLA in the errata. Quicken SLA and Maximize SLA are both very good options.

Eldritch Glaive and Power Attack is also a lot of damage, everyone likes touch attacks and BAB.

Vitriolic Blast already ignores SR, making it worth picking up.

Basically, for the char you want, read http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=820872. Very gish-style warlock, and isn't that weak, as you can do a lot of damage. Letting Hideous Blow and other melee attacks work together is really too complicated and not in the rules, may as well just use the Glaive.

Put points in UMD and get a wand of Lesser Restoration.

[Woland]

Thanks, appreciate the help. Now I just need to round out my warlock a little more and find a way to do decent damage without the whole constitution damage thing.

[Xaros]

Thanks, appreciate the help. Now I just need to round out my warlock a little more and find a way to do decent damage without the whole constitution damage thing.

You could always take a level in binder and choose Naberius as a vestige. That way, you heal one point of ability damage (to each score) every round. I forget who came up with this idea, but I certainly can't claim it as my own (good as it is).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Similarly, the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (acquirable by the Shape Soulmeld feat without needing and levels in Incarnate or whatever) reduces all ability damage by one.

[Zincorium]

Similarly, the Strongheart Vest soulmeld (acquirable by the Shape Soulmeld feat without needing and levels in Incarnate or whatever) reduces all ability damage by one.

If you don't take the constitution damage, the hellfire warlock bonus damage doesn't work, you have to heal it to create a combo. Immunity just deprives you of a class feature.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Immunity negates the class feature. Reducing all ability damage by one does not.

That's by RAW of course. On the scale of "will the DM ban it anyway?", the vestige is slightly more likely to pass inspection, yes.

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, binding Naberius works very well, and maybe somehow that binder level can come in handy in other ways.

[Tengu]

Would you have a suggestion for balancing it out so that the eldritch/melee damage is still in there with the house rules, but it doesn't surpass a rogue?

Try doing it the NWN way - Hideous Blow is an invocation that takes a standard action OR a move action (in NWN2 it's a standard action, but feel free to make it a move action) that lets you do Eldritch Blast damage in addition to your normal damage on your next melee attack (or all attacks in a full-round action in case of your homebrew mechanic) - the attack itself is NOT a part of this invocation. Under such rules, you spend each second round charging up Hideous Blow, and the other ones attacking - with an option, if you make it a move action, to attack each round with Hideous Blow but only with one attack a round.

In case the description I made was too confusing (not a native English speaker, you see), it'd work similarily to soulknife's psychic strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#psychicStrike) ability.

[Woland]

The strongheart vest thing sounds good. May be a little overpowering though, as there would be no penalty for using hellfire.

How does this sound - I have the character craft a nerfed version of the soulmeld, where a single ability would be healed 1 every round? Sort of a cross between Strongheart Vest and Naberius binding. That way, there would still be a penalty to using a quickened eldritch blast, a normal eldritch blast, and an attack of opportunity eldritch blast in a round, and the warlock would have to manage his use of hellfire to stay at peak condition.

It would also mean that a warlock could use stall tactics during a fight after unleashing a lot of hellfire damage to get back up to full constitution, adding another angle to his fighting style.

[AjaxTorbin]

Ok, people diss warlock a lot and im tired of it.
ANYTHING can be made broken.
including Warlock.
Example. i helped make a warlock for a campaign a friend was running.
he can do TWO eldrich blasts a round (a few times a day) and can add a fireball to it.
heres one of his standard attack rounds.
1 blast holy linving Sh1T out of somthing.
2telaport away (useing the evocation)
next round:
3 when party attemps to attack illusion left by abilityand Eldrich blast then do it again, this time with a fire ball on it
next round:
4 repeat prosess untill party death.

rember the warlock qualifies for a lot of monsterous feats (like quicken spell like ability) also he can use invisability and the iprooved version of Evards black tetaclesas spell like abilitys.
and last bot not least, when they cen get better evocations they can REPLACE THE LOWER LEVEL ONES WITH HIGHER LEVEL ONES.
warlock is not teh most broken class, but it can be made killy-death like

[Thinker]

Ok, people diss warlock a lot and im tired of it.
ANYTHING can be made broken.
including Warlock.
Example. i helped make a warlock for a campaign a friend was running.
he can do TWO eldrich blasts a round (a few times a day) and can add a fireball to it.
heres one of his standard attack rounds.
1 blast holy linving Sh1T out of somthing.
2telaport away (useing the evocation)
next round:
3 when party attemps to attack illusion left by abilityand Eldrich blast then do it again, this time with a fire ball on it
next round:
4 repeat prosess untill party death.

rember the warlock qualifies for a lot of monsterous feats (like quicken spell like ability) also he can use invisability and the iprooved version of Evards black tetaclesas spell like abilitys.
and last bot not least, when they cen get better evocations they can REPLACE THE LOWER LEVEL ONES WITH HIGHER LEVEL ONES.
warlock is not teh most broken class, but it can be made killy-death like

Yeah, a warlock is very good at surviving. Its just not that good at anything else. The ability to be very survivable is not that useful in a party setting. Two eldritch blasts in one round is not that impressive; it does mediocre damage. A fireball is not that impressive; it does mediocre damage. Regular invisibility at will is good, but not great. Taking monster feats to be useful twice or three times a day is not great. I agree that the warlock can be optimized to be useful, but it takes more work than many other classes to do so.

[Zincorium]

Ok, people diss warlock a lot and im tired of it.
ANYTHING can be made broken.
including Warlock.
Example. i helped make a warlock for a campaign a friend was running.
he can do TWO eldrich blasts a round (a few times a day) and can add a fireball to it.
heres one of his standard attack rounds.
1 blast holy linving Sh1T out of somthing.
2telaport away (useing the evocation)
next round:
3 when party attemps to attack illusion left by abilityand Eldrich blast then do it again, this time with a fire ball on it
next round:
4 repeat prosess untill party death.


To do this, you have to blow a quickening of your eldritch blast to get both it and flee the scene off in a single round. And a single eldritch blast is not 'blowing the &*&^ out of something'.

You are now a short distance away, and your mirror image lasts for one round, and assuming they fall for it, you still have to come back to do it again. You'll get this off maybe twice before they all have readied actions to take you out.



rember the warlock qualifies for a lot of monsterous feats (like quicken spell like ability) also he can use invisability and the iprooved version of Evards black tetaclesas spell like abilitys.
and last bot not least, when they cen get better evocations they can REPLACE THE LOWER LEVEL ONES WITH HIGHER LEVEL ONES.
warlock is not teh most broken class, but it can be made killy-death like

Flat out wrong.

You can replace them with equal or lower level invocations. Never higher level ones. Read the description before bragging.

And you have very low standards for broken.

[Neon Knight]

Yeah, a warlock is very good at surviving. Its just not that good at anything else.

To further reinforce this point, the Monk is also famous for being good at surviving.

[Feralgeist]

If you wanna use hideous blow, i suggest a reach weapon or something...it provokes AoO

[Kurald Galain]

Warlocks can be useful in non-combat-related situations because they can get such abilities as spider climb, flight, and invis permanently. Of course, they do get most of that at a level where it's also available in convenient ring shape and so forth. Still, if I were to play a warlock, I would focus on those invocations (as well as spending most of my feats on extra ones, for versatility). Eldritch Blasting is just an extra.