[3.5] What you can't build

[Climowitz]

Hello everyone here comes a difficult question, what can't you build with dnd classes and prestige classes. And i'm talking about a decent level of optimization or fluff, not just capability. For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.

What else you couldn't build?

[gooddragon1]

Hello everyone here comes a difficult question, what can't you build with dnd classes and prestige classes. And i'm talking about a decent level of optimization or fluff, not just capability. For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.

What else you couldn't build?

The problem with 3.5 in this case is that what you can't build with existing material you can homebrew. Still, I think there's probably some stuff that you couldn't even approximate without making it too powerful for a normal game. I just can't think of what that would be at the moment.

[Nifft]

For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.

Nomad 20 // Scout 20, viable at any level of optimization & at any level of character. Mechanically rewarded for moving constantly in combat; mechanically empowered with access to all sorts of teleportation effects.

[ben-zayb]

I'm guessing high-end nonmagical shounen characters? Something like a noncasting DBZ or TTGL character.

Also, a non-caster character that can effortlessly time travel back to the past and back to the present.

[eggynack]

For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.
This seems like an odd one. I feel like there're just so many ways to pull it off, the only issue being that you might end up with too much other stuff. Just about any caster could do it, I'd figure, and you can add on a few mundane builds that get dimension door effects.

I can only be as I am, so my mind jumped to a druid build running a contemplative dip for the travel domain (or maybe a seeker of the misty isle dip), along with exalted wild shape for free action dimension doors that don't interfere with casting, and maybe you take dragon wild shape as well to get crazy movement speed forms. Then you focus your combat casting around air spells, cause that tends to have air associations, and hell, the animal companions can be flying as well. Trade for voice of the city to get some of that well traveled feel; maybe make a couple of other cityscape trades while you're there.

So, I think that gets there decent. Every element of the build is reasonably occupied, with feats, forms, the companion, some prestige class levels, and, above all, the spell list, tuned towards the intended theme. Air is a really cool background focus for casting, cause you can pick a ton of them without feeling bad, and also because it can include air elemental summoning, maybe rashemi style, pulling that element into things as well. I guess the only big things left would be race and magic items, but it's weirdly easy to justify stupid powerful things as fitting that theme. Anthro bat has a flight speed, and a belt of battle and mantle of wild shape both key into the fast feeling you'd be going for. Actually a really sweet build. Don't even have to compromise flavor much in any area.

[Telonius]

This seems like an odd one. I feel like there're just so many ways to pull it off, the only issue being that you might end up with too much other stuff. Just about any caster could do it, I'd figure, and you can add on a few mundane builds that get dimension door effects.

I can only be as I am, so my mind jumped to a druid build running a contemplative dip for the travel domain (or maybe a seeker of the misty isle dip), along with exalted wild shape for free action dimension doors that don't interfere with casting, and maybe you take dragon wild shape as well to get crazy movement speed forms. Then you focus your combat casting around air spells, cause that tends to have air associations, and hell, the animal companions can be flying as well. Trade for voice of the city to get some of that well traveled feel; maybe make a couple of other cityscape trades while you're there.

So, I think that gets there decent. Every element of the build is reasonably occupied, with feats, forms, the companion, some prestige class levels, and, above all, the spell list, tuned towards the intended theme. Air is a really cool background focus for casting, cause you can pick a ton of them without feeling bad, and also because it can include air elemental summoning, maybe rashemi style, pulling that element into things as well. I guess the only big things left would be race and magic items, but it's weirdly easy to justify stupid powerful things as fitting that theme. Anthro bat has a flight speed, and a belt of battle and mantle of wild shape both key into the fast feeling you'd be going for. Actually a really sweet build. Don't even have to compromise flavor much in any area.

Travel domain would also get you access to the Wayfarer Guide prestige class, if you can get Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Geography) on your class skill list. (I know it's usually not a very useful skill, and it's not like Druid needs the help, but I always found it ridiculous that Druid doesn't get Knowledge (Geography) as a class skill). You could go into without too many hoops if you enter through Cloistered Cleric, or just plain Wizard. Play it up like Phileas Fogg. It's one lost caster level (ugh) but it's right on point for the theme.

[RoboEmperor]

If teleporting is your sole goal you can just dip cleric

Cleric Dip for Travel Domain and Undeath Domain. Trade out Travel Domain for Travel Devotion. With 12 charisma you have 4 swift action teleports a day. As a human grab 2 flaws for a grand total of 4 extra turnings and you have a grand total of 12 swift action teleports a day.

Keep grabbing Extra turnings, grab Night Sticks, and you will never run out of teleports.

Go Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana Variant Class) to capsize your spell list and melee everything to death while grabbing greater dimension door and the like.

[Eldan]

I'm guessing high-end nonmagical shounen characters? Something like a noncasting DBZ or TTGL character.

Also, a non-caster character that can effortlessly time travel back to the past and back to the present.

Can't say about time travel, but I think that's just a thing with RPGs, that time travel is too complicated to really make work (Continuum notwithstanding).

For Shonen characters, though.... well, really high end is probably beyond the power scale of D&D, unless you go into super-cheese for your planet-destroying. I wouldn't want to calculate the strength check for throwing galaxies, but theoretically, a Cancer Mage should be able to get there.
Your average mid-series shonen character, though, should be quite well covered by ToB and psionics. Self-healing, charging up, becoming stronger, punching through opponents, jumping and moving a lot, all there.

And since Epic Magic and Epic Psionics can do just about anything... well, I suppose an epic psion could replicate a lot of Dragonball feats.

[gooddragon1]

Can't say about time travel, but I think that's just a thing with RPGs, that time travel is too complicated to really make work (Continuum notwithstanding).

For Shonen characters, though.... well, really high end is probably beyond the power scale of D&D, unless you go into super-cheese for your planet-destroying. I wouldn't want to calculate the strength check for throwing galaxies, but theoretically, a Cancer Mage should be able to get there.
Your average mid-series shonen character, though, should be quite well covered by ToB and psionics. Self-healing, charging up, becoming stronger, punching through opponents, jumping and moving a lot, all there.

And since Epic Magic and Epic Psionics can do just about anything... well, I suppose an epic psion could replicate a lot of Dragonball feats.

Within a pre epic mid/low optimization game it probably isn't possible to replicate say... luffy's abilities faithfully the first time we see him post timeskip.

With epic... yeah :/

[Eldan]

Yeah, I was thinking first story arc Naruto is pretty well replicated with a mid-level psychic warrior. Probably some unarmed variant, or a Tashalatora monk, but it's doable. Except the clones, those would be quite high level.

[Ruethgar]

With Prestige Races being a thing and Extraordinary effect mimicking any magic being able to be thrown into them, I’m having a hard time thinking of a character that can’t be made since that right there covers any form of mundane with caster abilities you could want. Though to be fair, that’s not a 3.5 class covering a character archetype, it’s a feat.

As to the traveler. Jaunter was always a fun one for me, can enter at level two at the earliest and start teleporting around the battlefield. A major bloodline, Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion for your custom Prestige Race can give you an immense amount of travel power.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or go shadow pouncing Swordsage 2 / warblade X / Mot9 / shadowlord.

You need to burn a ton of feats, but you bounce around teleporting and making full attacks a day.

[PunBlake]

Yeah, I was thinking first story arc Naruto is pretty well replicated with a mid-level psychic warrior. Probably some unarmed variant, or a Tashalatora monk, but it's doable. Except the clones, those would be quite high level.
The only way I can come up with to somewhat replicate shadow clones is Trickery Devotion from Complete Champion. It gets closer and closer to the spell Simulacrum as you approach 20.

[Nifft]

Or go shadow pouncing Swordsage 2 / warblade X / Mot9 / shadowlord.

You need to burn a ton of feats, but you bounce around teleporting and making full attacks a day.

Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers aren't spells nor spell-like, so they don't get you into Telflammar Shadowpouncer.

Master of Nine and Telflammar Shadowpouncer both have heckish prereqs, but interestingly if you combine them you get almost free access to Jaunter, which does fulfill the Shadowpouncer's spell-like dimension door prereq.

Once you're in Shadowpouncer, you can use any [Teleport] effect to gain the pounce benefit, of course.

So a valid build might go something like...

Swordsage 6 / Jaunter 4 / Telflammar Shadowpouncer 4 / Swordsage +1 / Master of Nine 5

You could also stick a level of Warblade or two in there somewhere, but meh. It's pretty great as-is.

[Falontani]

Traveling back in time is something that is straight up impossible without homebrew preepic (perhaps a wish)
However looking forward there are a few classes, one of them is even for monks! Zerth Cenobite can hop forward, and produce save states that he loads after a certain amount of time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Traveling back in time is something that is straight up impossible without homebrew preepic (perhaps a wish)Err... (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

Teleport Through Time
Transmutation [Teleportation]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Personal and touch
Target: The character and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 50 lb./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

A far more powerful version of the teleport spell, this spell instantly transports the character to the same location, but to a different time. Interplanar travel is not possible, and the spell fails on any plane where time is meaningless. The character can bring along objects and willing creatures totaling up to 50 pounds per caster level. Unwilling creatures cannot be affected by this spell. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.

To cast this spell, the character must be able to state the arrival time accurately, down to the minute. The spell never transports the caster and companions to the precise minute desired, but it cannot function at all without a specific minute in time to target. This "drift" effect of not arriving at the precise time desired grows with the "distance" through time (measured in years, months, and weeks) traveled. Thus, a caster teleporting to last month arrives closer to her goal than one traveling 250 years. The minimum temporal distance traveled is 1 day, so this spell is not useful for going back to the beginning of a melee that is still progressing.

This spell requires some knowledge of the destination time, so it cannot transport anyone into the future since the future is entirely unknown to the caster. Even spells that give knowledge of the future cannot give definite enough knowledge to allow this spell to work. It is possible to use this spell to travel forward in time, but only to the point in the caster's life when the caster first went back in time.

Since the caster may not know exactly what is transpiring at the destination time, prudent time-travelers prepare for the worst.

The errors in arrival for this spell occur in time rather than in location, since the character does not change locations at all. To see how closely the character arrives to the planned arrival time, consult this table.

Temporal
Distance Traveled Temporal
Drift* Chance of
Mishap
1 day to 1 month +/- d8 minutes 5%
1 month to 1 year +/- d8 hours 7%
1 year to 10 years +/- d20 hours 10%
10 years to 100 years +/- d8 days 15%
100 years to 1,000 years +/- d20 days 20%
1,000 years + +/- d20 months 25%
* There is a 50% chance that the number is a negative number.
Add or subtract the temporal drift to the destination time to determine the exact time of arrival.

Mishaps result in the spell failing and the character taking 1 point of Intelligence damage for every 10 years of expected time travel due to the mental bombardment that time travel brings with it. Thus, a character trying to transport through 100 years would take 10 points of Intelligence damage. Intelligence can be reduced to 0 through this damage (but not lower).

In the case that a traveler meets himself, the two travelers instantly lose control and attack each other with every ability and item at their disposal. However, should a traveler die while traveling in the past, the traveler's body immediately vanishes from the point of time it traveled to and returns to the point where the spell was cast at the time that the spell was cast. In other words, if a traveler perishes in a fire, the instant that the traveler died in that fire is the instant in which the traveler is no longer in that time period, and the body is never found within that location since it returns to the moment of time in which the traveler finished the spell and began time traveling.

Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart.

Material Components: The material components of this spell are a pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timelessness, and a flower grown in soil untouched by any intelligent creature since the desired destination time. The flower must be picked during the casting of the spell. Untouched soil is defined as soil that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher has walked on, touched, or disturbed in any way, and it is usually found in remote locations (putting soil in a portable container disturbs it). The caster does not know whether the soil has been disturbed too recently for the time travel attempt, and many wizards simply use trial and error to find suitable locations. In short, you must find a pristine area to cast this spell, then you travel back in time to the exact same location at which you cast the spell. Because important events in a character's life are highly unlikely to take place in pristine locales, it's unlikely you'll have the ability to use this spell to make two of yourself to appear in the same place at the same time. Once you cast the spell in a particular location, it is no longer pristine, making it even more difficult to arrange for three or more of your future selves to assemble together.

XP Cost: 1,000 XP.

Part 3 gives information on the survey constructs and some ideas for using this portal in your campaign.
Psionics also has a ton of time-manipulation powers, including the ability to travel both forward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) and backward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) in time.

[almondsAndRain]

Traveling back in time is something that is straight up impossible without homebrew preepic (perhaps a wish) No, there's a spell to go back in time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b). There is also a psionic power that goes back one round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Quertus]

the only issue being that you might end up with too much other stuff.

That's usually my big issue. If I want to run someone who animates the dead, I don't necessarily want a religion, or access to the full Wizard's spell list.

Imagine trying to play a Dr. Who Time Lord from level 1-20 in D&D. Or a baby god / a demigod. Or a 2e Wild Mage.

[Fouredged Sword]

At some point you need to accept that 3.5 has narative limits. It was designed to play within a set gamespace and within a set of narative norms.

It has been pushed FAR outside it's base concept.

Unless you want to switch over to a 100% narative game it is imposible to make 100% of concepts viable.

[King of Nowhere]

It depends on what you consider acceptably close to what you want to build.

I posted a few homebrew classes, and every time someone came in and commented that hey, you can do this with a combination of preexisting X and Y and Z. And no, it never was true. You could get something vaguely similar, but not the same thing.
So, the real question is not "can you build it", but "how similar must it be before you're satisfied".
I mean, potentially every single homebrew is something you can't build within the rules, because you ccan only do something similar

[Falontani]

No, there's a spell to go back in time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b). There is also a psionic power that goes back one round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

I see, it was posted as a web article, the only core one being Time regression which costs 1k xp for a single round of replay, however I will say I stand corrected.

[Anthrowhale]

Divine Crusader[Travel] would give access to only movement related spells. Using customize domain[Travel], you could pick which movement related spells you wanted from all lists.

[Uncle Pine]

Hello everyone here comes a difficult question, what can't you build with dnd classes and prestige classes. And i'm talking about a decent level of optimization or fluff, not just capability. For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.

What else you couldn't build?

That's easy, there's even a whole prestige class for that: Teflammar Shadowlord.

What you can't build is a character who shoots halberds from his or her bow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389104-Did-you-just-kill-someone-by-shooting-a-halberd-at-him-Yes) (unless you start using wonky self-resetting traps and engineering, but that's just not fun).

[Climowitz]

I was talking about main concepts and abilities around it. I totally agree with the problem is that you end up with little about what you want, and a lot of other stuff.
I believe that there should be some option to sacrifice something to become better at other thing, or replace an exisiting feature, with another equally leveled and timed (not changing a 2nd level ability witha a 15th level one).

For example, if you want character built around crafting technology, you won't go much further than artificer and spending lot's of gold. Or if you want to get abilities from monsters you defeat, there isn't much out there.

[Quertus]

What else have I not been able to build, especially playable 1-20, without homebrew? Hmmm...

Possibly my favorite homebrew was a Psychopomp prestige class.

A MtG Mage, whose powers are random, and whose capabilities increase as the rounds tick away.

Or, for that matter, any other "real" caster with at-will spells.

The Flash - a character who, through their own power (not that of items, mounts, etc) can run at least 100x human speed.

A vampire that is even remotely balanced with the rest of the party. :smalltongue:

And I'd still love to see a class where 100% of their power came through shape shifting, playable from level 1-20.

[daremetoidareyo]

A non magic using grappler. Can't build a luchador when freedom of movement exists.

[JyP]

D&D3 is sort of an edition where you could play anything (read - any monster) with Level Adjustments, on the one hand.

On the other hand, as it is still D&D and oriented on skirmish combats, some styles of characters & adventures would be better with other systems : playing a courtesan/spy with political intrigues, thieves in a Ocean's Eleven kind of scenario, parallel worlds explorers, priests in esoteric research in The Name of the Rose, etc. Where you have adventures, but not necessarily combats. Playing a prophet with Vow of Peace is a kind of game where D&D fails short - as it should. You can't mix a group of murderhobos with non violence easily.

I feel that playing swashbucklers is better with other RPGs, playing hermetic magus is better through Ars Magica, knights with Pendragon, gunslingers with Deadlands, etc.

On heroic archetypes, let me think... mythic knights in The Seven Sins style is possible, if you skip over the fact that the classes used to do so will be anything but fighter. On the other side, ordinary guys thrown in adventures - even level 1 PCs already have an edge over mere mortals, but playing commoners is possible.

ah ! yes - let me troll a bit : you can't play clerics correctly with D&D. All miraculous powers are described, but not related to faith, religious strictures, etc. Miracles like resurrection should only happen whenever the cleric has proven his faith, not atop a pile of skulls from slayed foes. Here again, other RPGs do it better.

[Malimar]

My estimation: In D&D 3.5e (and to a lesser extent Pathfinder), you can build pretty much anything, except sometimes you can't build "can do X and only X", because a lot of abilities come bundled and some of the time the only way to get to "can do X" is to start at "can do pretty much anything".

Also, not everything that can be built necessarily makes for an effective character.

[gooddragon1]

From what I can see, you can homebrew anything (though maybe it would be hard to make something work mechanically?) in 3.5. The problem is the optimization level and actual level that would be involved with some things is outside the scope of normal/usual (?) game conditions.

[Prime32]

For example, i find it impossible to make a traveler a charavter based on teleportation and moving.
Easy.

Take the Least/Lesser/Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Passage) feat chain, then optionally Swiftness of Orien/Orien Battle Stride, or Dragonmark Adept/Prodigy/Visionary. Dragonmark Heir levels too, if you want. If you can cast spells, learn the teleportation spells that get more effective if you have the Mark of Passage.

Or take levels in the Jaunter PrC for tactical teleportation (which can entered as early as lv2), or Wayfarer Guide for long-range.

A warlock can gain at-will tactical teleportation through the Flee the Scene invocation, and a swordsage can get close through Shadow Hand maneuvers (not truly at-will because they need to pause and get their bearings before they can do it again).

The Shadow Pounce ability (granted by the Crinti Shadow Marauder and Telflammar PrCs) is popular and effective, letting you make a full attack at the end of any teleportation. The Sun School feat is an another option, which grants a single unarmed strike instead.

And that's just teleportation. If you want a character specialised in moving around, there's way more material available.

[Quertus]

From what I can see, you can homebrew anything (though maybe it would be hard to make something work mechanically?) in 3.5. The problem is the optimization level and actual level that would be involved with some things is outside the scope of normal/usual (?) game conditions.

Do you mean like how playing an ancient red gold Dragon is normally outside the playable level range? (let alone whether it would fit in your standard dungeon?)

[Nifft]

I'm guessing high-end nonmagical shounen characters? Something like a noncasting DBZ or TTGL character.

Also, a non-caster character that can effortlessly time travel back to the past and back to the present.

DBZ would be casters. They shout Verbal components and wave their hands around in specific Somatic components, then shoot fireballs at each other. If you interrupt the movements, they lose the energy they were going to throw at you. They have short-term buff effects. They wear robes.

In general, emulating supernatural fictional powers is going to require magic. Putting a constraint like "non-caster" is basically just demanding that a thing suck, and also not suck, both at the same time -- and then claiming the system is bad when the self-contradictory criteria can't be met.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

DBZ would be casters. They shout Verbal components and wave their hands around in specific Somatic components, then shoot fireballs at each other. If you interrupt the movements, they lose the energy they were going to throw at you. They have short-term buff effects. They wear robes.

In general, emulating supernatural fictional powers is going to require magic. Putting a constraint like "non-caster" is basically just demanding that a thing suck, and also not suck, both at the same time -- and then claiming the system is bad when the self-contradictory criteria can't be met.One word: Naruto.

They even learn new techniques from scrolls.

[Malphegor]

I'm guessing high-end nonmagical shounen characters? Something like a noncasting DBZ or TTGL character.

Also, a non-caster character that can effortlessly time travel back to the past and back to the present.

I can see a lot of shounen characters be some kind of barbarian/monk/incarnum mix. Barbarian for the 'OH NOW I'M ANGRY' powerup, monk for the flashy moves, incarnum because by Season 3 of any anime you need a bizarre powerup that has never been mentioned before to beat a boss.

[Telonius]

There are probably some things that you can't model with D&D, but there's an awful lot that it can, depending on how absurd the shenanigans you're comfortable with. I'm far from the best optimizer in the world. But if I can make a bunch of builds themed after Perry the Platypus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257889-Behold-my-Build-inator!) and the rest of the cast of Phineas and Ferb (with just two minor houserule tweaks on Perry), there's a pretty good chance that somebody can build a character that matches your concept and doesn't suck.

[Fouredged Sword]

One word: Naruto.

They even learn new techniques from scrolls.

What do you MEAN everyone decided to play swordsage // EZ bake wizards for my gestalt game?

Fine, but I insist on holding off on allowing twilight chain vests until you hit mid levels.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What do you MEAN everyone decided to play swordsage // EZ bake wizards for my gestalt game?

Fine, but I insist on holding off on allowing twilight chain vests until you hit mid levels.And given how often they stand around talking about stuff during fights instead of actually fighting, they obviously have ridiculously long verbal components.