The Scion: A mighty warrior and heir to supernatural power

[pyrefiend]

Here is the link to the class! (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ppq3dXk11flUihpnoBmNjX4WxVU75ZjO/view?usp=sharing)

I'd appreciate your feedback, as well as suggestions for how to develop the idea!

EDIT: New version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PD5EcT6KqHVFPeKPGgjI-SFNbCCuXAxM/view?usp=sharing), check check check it out!

[JNAProductions]

GM Binder cuts off part of the text for me.

[pyrefiend]

Oh no! This link should work. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ppq3dXk11flUihpnoBmNjX4WxVU75ZjO/view?usp=sharing)

[Amnoriath]

You have really good flavor. It copies the sorcerer a bit, but because it plays out differently it is distinct. I also like that with everything it feels like a rounded character. That being said, it has some issues.
1. There is a fair amount of things to keep books on between the uses of abilities and how many of your abilities work. While sometimes complexity needs to bring balance and specificity 5e has really tried to walk away from that.
2. It is quite clear that you intended this class to be a tanky melee control against many smaller opponents. You have many advantages against small opponents but not many consistent features that control many. Your Presence helps direct the target to you but it is so small short in duration it can be dealt with easily. A reach weapon escapes it.
3. Ultimately what this is really good at is being unkillable. Between 3 Imposing presence uses 3 boons it takes a weapon hit of greater than 50(maybe 54 damage to cut in your hit points. It gains 60 hit points each short rest(120 for weapons). Even if Rage ablates more it has restrictions and it cuts into hit points. This class also has more AC.
4. If I had to pick which subclass is the best it would be the Celestial hands down. Between the mini smites and insane fly speed as well as lie and alignment detectors it brings the most of what can't be picked elsewhere. The Dragon does give you a little blasting power but it uses a breath weapon that can't kill many CR 1's. The unarmored ac isn't really all that needed as there is little reason not to have heavy armor. The Giant simply doesn't get enough in the front end as it breaks the percieved set up only offering utility and a couple hit points. It then offers smaller utility and a ranged attack that isn't practical or magical in damage. The only real ability you got is once per long rest and even the advantage on strength checks come that late.
5. Superiority is too good, 8th level characters are just not that epic. At that point 2-3 CR 1's are a meaningful encounter for one. The disadvantage on attacks against you directly undermines imposing presence. Though what really makes it poweful is how effective your wisdom and charisma checks will be in cities, npcs.. It needs to be broken up.
5. It is odd how this doesn't have anything to boost Strength saves given it's picture and the way it functions. This could be problematic as it could tied up quite quickly.

[Lalliman]

The unarmored ac isn't really all that needed as there is little reason not to have heavy armor.
This class doesn't get heavy armour. Which brings me to the one thing I'd like to add: Despite having Strength listed as the go-to primary stat, Dexterity is clearly the better choice. A Dex-based Scion gets better AC (because no heavy armour), plus the various minor benefits that Dex has over Str. All you lose out on by going Dex-based is Rock Throwing, Engine of Destruction and Titanic Impact, all of which are optional picks anyways. It needs something to make Strength worth using.

[Amnoriath]

This class doesn't get heavy armour. Which brings me to the one thing I'd like to add: Despite having Strength listed as the go-to primary stat, Dexterity is clearly the better choice. A Dex-based Scion gets better AC (because no heavy armour), plus the various minor benefits that Dex has over Str. All you lose out on by going Dex-based is Rock Throwing, Engine of Destruction and Titanic Impact, all of which are optional picks anyways. It needs something to make Strength worth using.

1. I know that, but it can pick it up via feat...etc The point is that no features conflict with it.
2. If and only if they are of Dragon Ancestry, and Dexterity would be a bad choice functionally. They aren't proficient with Strength or Dexterity saves nor do they get any boost towards saves other than Force of Personality. They don't have Evasion so the return in Dex. saves only amounts to half damage if they succeed. Strength saves though always has some kind of light or movement oriented control to it. Additionally while a Dexterity based character has more utility and goes first Strength based characters have bigger weapons and can do some better control. This characters abilities aside from a couple one use innate spells is all about melee.
3. With that being said you are right that it needs to support Strength more.

[pyrefiend]

With that being said you are right that it needs to support Strength more.

Any suggestions? I'm having a hard time coming up with anything I like.

EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. I want it to be possible to play a DEX scion or a STR scion, but I want the class to scew towards the STR option and I certainly don't want the DEX option to be superior. I think the best thing to do is introduce more and better STR-based boons. The boons need an overhaul anyway because, as Amnoriath suggested, they introduce too much to keep track of.

[Amnoriath]

Any suggestions? I'm having a hard time coming up with anything I like.

EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. I want it to be possible to play a DEX scion or a STR scion, but I want the class to scew towards the STR option and I certainly don't want the DEX option to be superior. I think the best thing to do is introduce more and better STR-based boons. The boons need an overhaul anyway because, as Amnoriath suggested, they introduce too much to keep track of.

1. And actually I don't disagree with that, but with that being said I think that there also needs to be a change with how this class is set up because I don't think it is doing what you want it to fully. So this is my first question, did you want the base class to be a tanky melee control that is particularly good at dealing with multiple opponents?
2. How important is it to you that you keep Superiority and Rise Above? As I said before I really don't like it as it kind of defeats Imposing Presence with all the other numbers you have. The key idea of being a tank is to direct the attack to you. If you are setting up disadvantage against and 1+x with Rise Above logically they will stay away from a meta-gaming perspective.
3. Finally if you are okay with both would you be willing to see how I would chart this up?

[PhantasyPen]

Your class doesn't seem to follow the Ability Score Increase pattern of any of the other classes, is there a reason for that?

[Amnoriath]

Your class doesn't seem to follow the Ability Score Increase pattern of any of the other classes, is there a reason for that?
If I had to guess he copied the Fighter's ASI progression except he eliminated the 8th level to make room for Superiority. Which makes sense because he has 3 levels of it.

[Yddisac]

I don't have much to add to the critique, I'm afraid; Amnoriath, et al. have made a lot of good points already. In terms of where to improve, Amnoriath's assessment is spot on IMO. The Giant subclass is disappointing at early levels, the boons might stack a bit too well when it comes to damage mitigation, and Superiority is severely broken... Amnoriath said it all already.

I want to post anyway, though, just to say that I'm very excited about this class. I was surprised by how much I loved the flavour behind this class — it's presented as a demigod from old myth. Imposing Presence is a fun base feature, and the Warlock's invocations fit the class's fighter-like chassis quite well. I'm excited to watch the class grow, and I'd love to offer it to my players once it evolves a bit more (and Superiority gets nerfed or, more likely, replaced).

Oh, thinking about it, I suppose one suggestion I have is to give the Scion more power to keep its enemies in melee range where it wants them. As Amnoriath pointed out, the Scion is such a formidable melee opponent that no one will want to engage it. Rather than piling on abilities to keep the Scion alive in battle, it might be a good idea to introduce abilities that force its enemies to fight it whether they like it or not. Even on the battlefield, opponents would rather flee than face Achilles or Diomedes in their rage. They shouldn't get a choice. The most obvious means of doing this is keeping enemies from disengaging, but things like increased movement speed, maybe even from boons, could also help.

(Also, why no unarmoured defence? A lot of the example images were unarmoured, so I thought I'd go for something like that, but when I tried making a giant-descended Scion to see what a Scion might look like, I had to put them in scale mail. Am I missing something, or is that just not a thing the class should have?)

[Amnoriath]

I don't have much to add to the critique, I'm afraid; Amnoriath, et al. have made a lot of good points already. In terms of where to improve, Amnoriath's assessment is spot on IMO. The Giant subclass is disappointing at early levels, the boons might stack a bit too well when it comes to damage mitigation, and Superiority is severely broken... Amnoriath said it all already.

I want to post anyway, though, just to say that I'm very excited about this class. I was surprised by how much I loved the flavour behind this class — it's presented as a demigod from old myth. Imposing Presence is a fun base feature, and the Warlock's invocations fit the class's fighter-like chassis quite well. I'm excited to watch the class grow, and I'd love to offer it to my players once it evolves a bit more (and Superiority gets nerfed or, more likely, replaced).

Oh, thinking about it, I suppose one suggestion I have is to give the Scion more power to keep its enemies in melee range where it wants them. As Amnoriath pointed out, the Scion is such a formidable melee opponent that no one will want to engage it. Rather than piling on abilities to keep the Scion alive in battle, it might be a good idea to introduce abilities that force its enemies to fight it whether they like it or not. Even on the battlefield, opponents would rather flee than face Achilles or Diomedes in their rage. They shouldn't get a choice. The most obvious means of doing this is keeping enemies from disengaging, but things like increased movement speed, maybe even from boons, could also help.

(Also, why no unarmoured defence? A lot of the example images were unarmoured, so I thought I'd go for something like that, but when I tried making a giant-descended Scion to see what a Scion might look like, I had to put them in scale mail. Am I missing something, or is that just not a thing the class should have?)
1. 👍 I know the feeling. He really has something great here.
2. Precisely, Totem warrior or Ancestor Barbarian does a better job.
3. No, you aren't missing anything. It could be argued the picture is a thematic, asymmetrical breastplate. That being said, at base it isn't necessary as I don't think being lightly clothed 🙃 is as important to the tenants of the character. However a boon would help.

[pyrefiend]

Thanks for all the feedback!


1. And actually I don't disagree with that, but with that being said I think that there also needs to be a change with how this class is set up because I don't think it is doing what you want it to fully. So this is my first question, did you want the base class to be a tanky melee control that is particularly good at dealing with multiple opponents?

Yes, for sure. Also flashy demigod-warrior abilities and magical flavor.


2. How important is it to you that you keep Superiority and Rise Above? As I said before I really don't like it as it kind of defeats Imposing Presence with all the other numbers you have. The key idea of being a tank is to direct the attack to you. If you are setting up disadvantage against and 1+x with Rise Above logically they will stay away from a meta-gaming perspective.

Not very at all. I'm working on a new version of the class I plan to post soon, and I removed both of those abilities. (Replacing Rise Above with something similar which boosts melee damage.)


3. Finally if you are okay with both would you be willing to see how I would chart this up?

Sure--let a thousand flowers bloom! This is where I'm at with the version I'm working on now. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PD5EcT6KqHVFPeKPGgjI-SFNbCCuXAxM/view?usp=sharing)

[pyrefiend]

I want to post anyway, though, just to say that I'm very excited about this class. I was surprised by how much I loved the flavour behind this class — it's presented as a demigod from old myth. Imposing Presence is a fun base feature, and the Warlock's invocations fit the class's fighter-like chassis quite well. I'm excited to watch the class grow, and I'd love to offer it to my players once it evolves a bit more (and Superiority gets nerfed or, more likely, replaced).

Thanks very much! That's exactly the feel I was going for. If you're interested, this is the version I'm working on now (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PD5EcT6KqHVFPeKPGgjI-SFNbCCuXAxM/view?usp=sharing). My main goal was to streamline the various abilites so you have less to keep track of. Now pretty much all of your abilities are fueled by a single pool of superiority-I-mean-power dice.


Oh, thinking about it, I suppose one suggestion I have is to give the Scion more power to keep its enemies in melee range where it wants them. As Amnoriath pointed out, the Scion is such a formidable melee opponent that no one will want to engage it. Rather than piling on abilities to keep the Scion alive in battle, it might be a good idea to introduce abilities that force its enemies to fight it whether they like it or not. Even on the battlefield, opponents would rather flee than face Achilles or Diomedes in their rage. They shouldn't get a choice. The most obvious means of doing this is keeping enemies from disengaging, but things like increased movement speed, maybe even from boons, could also help.

Yeah, there's a little bit of that in the new version... but I need more. The easiest thing I could think of is to make more powers that explicitly do those things. Another option would be a general upgrade to Imposing Presence that makes it difficult terrain for hostile creatures.


(Also, why no unarmoured defence? A lot of the example images were unarmoured, so I thought I'd go for something like that, but when I tried making a giant-descended Scion to see what a Scion might look like, I had to put them in scale mail. Am I missing something, or is that just not a thing the class should have?)

I think that's just not a thing the class should have. It gets quite a lot at is it is, I think. I'm just working with the art I have.

[Amnoriath]

Thanks very much! That's exactly the feel I was going for. If you're interested, this is the version I'm working on now (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PD5EcT6KqHVFPeKPGgjI-SFNbCCuXAxM/view?usp=sharing). My main goal was to streamline the various abilites so you have less to keep track of. Now pretty much all of your abilities are fueled by a single pool of superiority-I-mean-power dice.


Well, you did do that but it lost its flare as a unique class everything is almost everything is dice adding to rolls...etc It really kind of just feels like a bigger, quirky Battlemaster right now. It is a bit more balanced now. Though I should say right off the bat giving a save proficiency at 3rd level is way too good. Plus some of the save rolls you can make might be too much. Though, ironically because you kept the armor proficiencies the same there is a substantial risk of MAD going on.

[pyrefiend]

Well, you did do that but it lost its flare as a unique class everything is almost everything is dice adding to rolls...etc It really kind of just feels like a bigger, quirky Battlemaster right now.

Well that's not great to hear... What makes you say that? It gets pretty much the same abilities as it did before: imposing presence, many of the same powers as the old boons, etc.


Though I should say right off the bat giving a save proficiency at 3rd level is way too good.

Even a "bad" save? I was almost thinking of that as a ribbon ability. In my experience Strength saves are quite rare.


Plus some of the save rolls you can make might be too much. Though, ironically because you kept the armor proficiencies the same there is a substantial risk of MAD going on.

Not sure what you meant by the first half of this. As in, your saves end up too good? As for the second half: yeah, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

[Yddisac]

Hrm. In general, I like this iteration better than the last. Mettle and Supernatural Ability worry me a lot less than Superiority did, and I like seeing Duelling in there for elegant Celestial fencers or shield-bearing Giant descendants. My current worry is just how many of the Powers call on power dice. I worry that we'll end up with a situation like the Four Elements monk, where there are far too many options for too few dice. That goes double for the Dragon descendant, who really wants to spend all their power dice at once on a single, mighty Breath Weapon attack 1/short rest. Even using the wings hurts a little for them; they really don't have dice to spare on things like Great Leaping.

Some of the Powers could probably get turned back into passives. Standouts I notice include situational things like Great Leaping, Engine of Destruction, and Titanic Impact, as well as Spell Sight and Warrior's Gaze, which can easily afford to grant at-will spellcasting like they used to. Mixing some passives in there frees you up to make the Powers that do require spending Dice a little less situational, since you won't need to worry as much about overlap. (Maybe you could get some crowd control stuff in there — knocking enemies prone with earth-shaking blows, rooting them where they stand with paralysing fear, etc.? the class is still a little short on that if it's something you wanted.) It'd also offer some compelling options for Dragon descendants, whose Breath Weapons require saving up as many power dice as possible for maximum impact.

I don't know if there's always a need to tie the results of the power dice into things, either? I'll use Skin like Stone as an example. Ideally, it will last a long time, longer than any one combat should, since the average roll on 3d8 is 13.5. However, it has the possibility to screw the user over and last only 3 or 4 rounds. Why not just spend 3 power dice flat and have it last a minute? I don't recall exactly, but I think some Bard subclass features involved spending inspiration dice without rolling them. Having the rolls in cases like that seems to do more harm than good to me.

(All of that is, of course, assuming you keep the power dice. If you ultimately decide not to, I'll have to come up with a new slate of critique for the next version of this class :V)

Things I like: Duelling fighting style getting added; the new Rise to the Challenge; the built-in scaling natural weapon the Dragon descendant gets; power dice-fuelled smites; Mettle
Things I miss: Passive Powers, a bit of the flavour (vague, I know. I think stuff like the earth tremor Power went a long way)
Question: If a Scion has a negative Strength modifier, will Supernatural Vigour actually work against them, or should it only apply the Strength modifier if it's greater than or equal to zero?
Tiny nitpick: I just noticed that dragons with line-based breath weapons don't actually increase their range at 11th level; it goes from a 5x30' line to a 5x30' line. I assume it was supposed to be a 5x60' line or something like that?

[Amnoriath]

1. Yddasic really hit the nail on the head with his assessment. I would add that in cases like Giant Strength where you have random chances that a 1 or 2 would mean that you wasted a die.
2. You also had some great thematic utility in which you reduced down into a normal check using your dice.(read the stars, being of magic.. Etc)
3. I'm not sure about that Strength saves never come up. A whole mess of beasts inflict it, whenever restrained comes up it is almost always a strength save. It is the most common secondary save. The only class to give a save at level 2 was the first draft of the mystic which only gave you 1 to start.
4. I will get you the base chart later today.

[pyrefiend]

I worry that we'll end up with a situation like the Four Elements monk, where there are far too many options for too few dice. That goes double for the Dragon descendant, who really wants to spend all their power dice at once on a single, mighty Breath Weapon attack 1/short rest. Even using the wings hurts a little for them; they really don't have dice to spare on things like Great Leaping.

I share this worry, especially when it comes to the Dragon scion. I think it comes down to a few things.

1) I think maybe the Dragon scion should get a base breath weapon usable once per short/long rest, to which they can add power dice. (This is tough to balance and really only goes part of the way to fixing the problem, but I can't think of a better fix.)

EDIT: Here's my proposed fix:
#### Breath Weapon

At level 1, you can use your action to breathe forth destructive energy. When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d8 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d8 at 6th level, 4d8 at 8th level, and 5d8 at 16th level.

After you use your breath weapon, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

#### Draconic Form
At 1st level, parts of your body are covered in dragon scales. While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.

Your fingers also end in razor-sharp claws. You are proficient with your claws, which count as light weapons. They deal slashing damage equal to your power die.

#### Elemental Power
At 7th level, can augment your breath weapon with your power dice. Whenever you use your breath weapon, you may expend up to three power dice and add them to the damage your breath weapon deals.

In addition, you gain resistance to the damage type of your breath weapon.

#### Draconic Prowess
At 11th level, you gain the ability manifest a mighty pair of dragon wings as a bonus action during your turn. Your wings last for 10 minutes, during which you have a flying speed of 40 feet. Once you use this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before you can do so again.

You also gain a dragon’s uncanny eye for valuables. By examining a piece of treasure over the course of one minute, you can learn that treasure’s approximate value in gold pieces. You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks to spot treasure, and you have advantage on Charisma checks to barter and haggle for treasure.

#### Draconic Apotheosis
At 17th level, your breath weapon becomes more powerful. If the area of your breath weapon is a line, its area increases to 5 by 60 feet. If the area of your breath weapon is a cone, its area increases to a 30 foot cone. You can expend up to six power dice to increase the damage dealt by your breath weapon.

Your wings also become permanent, and gain have immunity to the damage type of your breath weapon.

2) Wings probably just need not involve power dice at all. I think I've swung the pendulum too far in favor of consolidating all the abilities to one framework. There's got to be a better balance.

3) Powers like Great Leaping have a passive 'mode' which is good even when you don't spend power dice. I think that might be a good model to follow with other powers going forward.


Some of the Powers could probably get turned back into passives. Standouts I notice include situational things like Great Leaping, Engine of Destruction, and Titanic Impact, as well as Spell Sight and Warrior's Gaze, which can easily afford to grant at-will spellcasting like they used to.

Most of these I think should be accommodated to the model of Great Leaping: they do something useful when you don't spend dice on them, but you can boost them with dice. Titanic Impact doesn't really fit that model as it does something completely different than it used to. But the old version could come back.


(Maybe you could get some crowd control stuff in there — knocking enemies prone with earth-shaking blows, rooting them where they stand with paralysing fear, etc.? the class is still a little short on that if it's something you wanted.) It'd also offer some compelling options for Dragon descendants, whose Breath Weapons require saving up as many power dice as possible for maximum impact.

Both good ideas! (See my previous comment about powers with passive "modes."


I don't know if there's always a need to tie the results of the power dice into things, either? I'll use Skin like Stone as an example. Ideally, it will last a long time, longer than any one combat should, since the average roll on 3d8 is 13.5. However, it has the possibility to screw the user over and last only 3 or 4 rounds. Why not just spend 3 power dice flat and have it last a minute?

I struggled a lot with this design choice. Ultimately, I decided that I want spending power dice to always work the same way: the rolled number is what counts, not the number of dice. But you're right that it's sometimes hard to make that fit a given power. When it comes to Skin Like Stone, I think the solution is just that power dice shouldn't be involved. As in the last version, the ability should be keyed to your use of Imposing Presence.


I don't recall exactly, but I think some Bard subclass features involved spending inspiration dice without rolling them.

I sort of thought that too, but I checked and they don't.


Things I miss: Passive Powers, a bit of the flavour (vague, I know. I think stuff like the earth tremor Power went a long way)

Shake the Earth and Read the Stars can both come back! Because I was so worried about mechanical balance with the power dice, I started the new version by working on the more "standard," less flavorful powers: the ones that straightforwardly add damage to your attacks. But it's easy to assimilate the old flavorful boons to the new model. I'm working on it!


Question: If a Scion has a negative Strength modifier, will Supernatural Vigour actually work against them, or should it only apply the Strength modifier if it's greater than or equal to zero?

The latter, good catch!


Tiny nitpick: I just noticed that dragons with line-based breath weapons don't actually increase their range at 11th level; it goes from a 5x30' line to a 5x30' line. I assume it was supposed to be a 5x60' line or something like that?

Good catch again!

Thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate it!

[pyrefiend]

1. Yddasic really hit the nail on the head with his assessment. I would add that in cases like Giant Strength where you have random chances that a 1 or 2 would mean that you wasted a die.

True. I'm thinking that I should change a bunch of the powers such that they do something even when you don't invest dice in them, but do something more powerful when you do. For example, Giant Strength doubles your carrying capacity for a while, and you can add more carrying capacity with power dice. That makes it a lot more reliable, and makes a bad roll feel more like a failed attempt to push your own limits.


2. You also had some great thematic utility in which you reduced down into a normal check using your dice.(read the stars, being of magic.. Etc)

Being of Magic works basically the same way that it did before. I haven't converted Read the Stars yet, but I will! As I said to Yddasic: Because I was so worried about mechanical balance with the power dice, I started the new version by working on the more "standard," less flavorful powers: the ones that straightforwardly add damage to your attacks. But it's easy to assimilate the old flavorful boons to the new model. I'm working on it!


I'm not sure about that Strength saves never come up. A whole mess of beasts inflict it, whenever restrained comes up it is almost always a strength save. It is the most common secondary save. The only class to give a save at level 2 was the first draft of the mystic which only gave you 1 to start.

Fair enough. Maybe they can get it at level 6 or so, I can figure something out.


4. I will get you the base chart later today.

Sounds good. And thanks again for the feedback!

[Grear Bylls]

Going to be honest...



I love this! I haven't been able to analyze everything, but this far, it's awesome! Definitely will get back to this, and try to get my DM to approve this!

Awesome!

[pyrefiend]

Going to be honest...



I love this! I haven't been able to analyze everything, but this far, it's awesome! Definitely will get back to this, and try to get my DM to approve this!

Awesome!

That's nice to hear! Definitely don't use it just yet, though, it's pretty far from being done.

[Yddisac]

This is a minor and mostly irrelevant point, but I went and checked, and the College of Glamour Bard from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a use for Bardic Inspiration dice that don't involve rolling anything. Mantle of Inspiration expends an Inspiration die to grant a flat benefit to multiple
allies. This is super trivial and I don't know if it will help you, but it was bugging me that I left that hanging, so there you go I guess uwu;

[pyrefiend]

That's very helpful, thanks! I hadn't checked Xanathar's guide.

[Amnoriath]

Hopefully I helped you out there. :smallsmile:

[BerzerkerUnit]

I like the core concept here. Where are you finding your art?

[pyrefiend]

Thanks! Mostly DeviantArt. It's all sourced on the last page.