How well does Monk / Cleric mesh? Anyone play it before?

[jaappleton]

Obviously they're both Wisdom heavy.

Monk is very 'frontline, but mobile'

Cleric is... Honestly it can be fairly tanky. Its channel divinity refreshes on short rests.

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.


Side note: I know it doesn't work this way, but casting Spirit Guardians and then rushing through a group of enemies full speed like a blender of death is a hilariously awesome image to me.

[nickl_2000]

One of the negatives is that you have competition for bonus actions. Spiritual Weapon and monk bonus attack don't play well together. Also, the armor and shield proficiency doesn't go at all well with the monk's abilities.

However, you gain a huge amount of utility by doing so. You gain the bless spell adding 1d4 to attacks and to saves, making you likely to never fail a saving throw and your 3 attacks more likely to hit. You gain emergency healing and ranged attacks in the cleric cantrips (or better chances at positioning for Word of Radiance). If you want to go a little bit further into cleric and go cleric 3 you get silence, and be even better than you were at shutting down other spellcasters.


Personally I have a Grung PC sitting on my tablet waiting to be played that is will be an Arcana Cleric 1/monk X/Cleric X. I think it will be a fun character to play at some point when I have a chance.

[jaappleton]

One of the negatives is that you have competition for bonus actions. Spiritual Weapon and monk bonus attack don't play well together. Also, the armor and shield proficiency doesn't go at all well with the monk's abilities.

However, you gain a huge amount of utility by doing so. You gain the bless spell adding 1d4 to attacks and to saves, making you likely to never fail a saving throw and your 3 attacks more likely to hit. You gain emergency healing and ranged attacks in the cleric cantrips (or better chances at positioning for Word of Radiance). If you want to go a little bit further into cleric and go cleric 3 you get silence, and be even better than you were at shutting down other spellcasters.


Personally I have a Grung PC sitting on my tablet waiting to be played that is will be an Arcana Cleric 1/monk X/Cleric X. I think it will be a fun character to play at some point when I have a chance.

War Cleric gets Diving Favor, for +1d4 Radiant on all attacks. That adds up. Its also target independent, unlike Hex and Hunter's Mark. Unfortunately a lot of the other stuff War gets is fairly useless on a Monk, like the bonus action attack.

[OzDragon]

Obviously they're both Wisdom heavy.

Monk is very 'frontline, but mobile'

Cleric is... Honestly it can be fairly tanky. Its channel divinity refreshes on short rests.

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.


Side note: I know it doesn't work this way, but casting Spirit Guardians and then rushing through a group of enemies full speed like a blender of death is a hilariously awesome image to me.

I had a light cleric/sun soul monk that worked great. Get con prof and warcaster and do just what you said Blender of Death time!

But any combo can work, Long death/death cleric, Shadow/Death cleric, Open hand/Tempest cleric, Open hand/War cleric.

[Vogie]

Some of them are more straightforward than others.

Nature Cleric 1/ Monk X, for example, will increase your melee damage significantly by giving you Shillelagh on your club/quarterstaff that Martial arts won't give you until level 11, not to mention the +Wisdom.

I also have been working on a firebender-esque build that is eventually Light cleric 3 / Radiant Soul Monk X. Having an early single level in Cleric gives you Faerie Fire, allowing your flurry of (ranged, radiant) blows to have advantage on all attacks. Later on, You can also choose to cast burning hands as a spell/action, or as a Bonus action using ki points. Going up to 3 levels gives you the Radiance of the Dawn channel, Flaming Sphere and Searing Rays, so you can really go to town as a fire-based gish, even at range, even if you're standing in a Silence zone, as your Radiant Sun Bolts are not spells.

[Bloodcloud]

Going nature cleric gets you shillelagh, allowing you to focus on Wis more easily.

[OzDragon]

Some of them are more straightforward than others.

Nature Cleric 1/ Monk X, for example, will increase your melee damage significantly by giving you Shillelagh on your club/quarterstaff that Martial arts won't give you until level 11, not to mention the +Wisdom.

I also have been working on a firebender-esque build that is eventually Light cleric 3 / Radiant Soul Monk X. Having an early single level in Cleric gives you Faerie Fire, allowing your flurry of (ranged, radiant) blows to have advantage on all attacks. Later on, You can also choose to cast burning hands as a spell/action, or as a Bonus action using ki points. Going up to 3 levels gives you the Radiance of the Dawn channel, Flaming Sphere and Searing Rays, so you can really go to town as a fire-based gish, even at range, even if you're standing in a Silence zone, as your Radiant Sun Bolts are not spells.


Its a 2 damage boost till level 5 and a 1 damage boost till level 11 on your one or two non flurry attacks. Not a significant boost really.

[OzDragon]

Going nature cleric gets you shillelagh, allowing you to focus on Wis more easily.

You still want a good dex as most of your monk abilities need no armor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Obviously they're both Wisdom heavy.

Monk is very 'frontline, but mobile'

Cleric is... Honestly it can be fairly tanky. Its channel divinity refreshes on short rests.

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.

Side note: I know it doesn't work this way, but casting Spirit Guardians and then rushing through a group of enemies full speed like a blender of death is a hilariously awesome image to me. A cleric need not be tanky; depends on how the party is built.
My nephew played a Monk 1/Cleric X who fit into our party very well. vHuman with the Observant feat.

[Citan]

Hi!

I think looking for posts from me in any Monk thread should cover you. :smallbiggrin:

In short, yeah small dips of Cleric (or Druid for that matter) bring much to Monks, then it's a matter of how far and for what.
Domain will bring more or less depending on that. :)

For just one level, my default choice would probably be Tempest/Light (AOE) or Nature (Shillelagh) or Arcana (Booming Blade has still uses for a Monk especially at low levels) for any non-4E Monk though, and Nature (Mold Earth? Shillelagh?) for a 4e Monk.

But honestly, just having Bless or Shield of Faith two times per day makes it worth as long as you make the dip early. :)

[jaappleton]

I had a light cleric/sun soul monk that worked great. Get con prof and warcaster and do just what you said Blender of Death time!

But any combo can work, Long death/death cleric, Shadow/Death cleric, Open hand/Tempest cleric, Open hand/War cleric.

The Tempest one is really intriguing to me. Maximizing Shatter would be excellent AoE capability for a Monk, and the idea of knocking someone on their ass with Open Hand plays well with the thunderous aspect of the domain.

Plus, although the 2d8 damage as a reaction isn't much... What else are you doing with your reaction if you aren't catching arrows?

[Sorlock Master]

Obviously they're both Wisdom heavy.

Monk is very 'frontline, but mobile'

Cleric is... Honestly it can be fairly tanky. Its channel divinity refreshes on short rests.

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.


Side note: I know it doesn't work this way, but casting Spirit Guardians and then rushing through a group of enemies full speed like a blender of death is a hilariously awesome image to me.

I have thought mostly about 2 combos.

Grave/Death Cleric and Long Death Monk

And Trickery Cleric and Open Hand, Invoke duplicity for advantage on all attacks.

[xroads]

I'm actually considering making my next character a monk/cleric. But I 'm going to avoid being a front line fighter or tank.

Instead I am aiming for more of a robed priest. A support character that relies on ranged cantrips for attacks. So I am planning a brief level dip into monk and then the rest would be cleric. Preferably with a domain that grants potent spellcasting at eighth and doesn't have the heavy armor proficiency (because it would be a waste).

[Mortis_Elrod]

I like this combo. A good race choice makes this really agreeable too. Lizardfolk helps out a lot.

I’ve done light cleric/Sub soul with Aarokokra . Was pretty fun

[OzDragon]

The Tempest one is really intriguing to me. Maximizing Shatter would be excellent AoE capability for a Monk, and the idea of knocking someone on their ass with Open Hand plays well with the thunderous aspect of the domain.

Plus, although the 2d8 damage as a reaction isn't much... What else are you doing with your reaction if you aren't catching arrows?

Exactly sir!

[Willie the Duck]

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.

Compared to a complete neutral-synergy martial/spellcaster build like wizard-barbarian or rogue-sorcerer build, it is easier. That said, levels 5-10 are going to be tough, as you will really miss the extra attack at 5 as a monk and the same with your 3rd level cleric spells (that's pretty much true with all multiclass, though, isn't it?).

[jaappleton]

Compared to a complete neutral-synergy martial/spellcaster build like wizard-barbarian or rogue-sorcerer build, it is easier. That said, levels 5-10 are going to be tough, as you will really miss the extra attack at 5 as a monk and the same with your 3rd level cleric spells (that's pretty much true with all multiclass, though, isn't it?).

Well, I'd be starting at level 10.

So I'm really curious as to when I should cut off Cleric.

Trickery gets some GREAT spells to add to a Monk, especially Pass Without Trace. Though I could go Shadow Monk for that, but by MCing, I shorten up my Ki pool so maybe having it as a spell is better?

Meanwhile, Tempest just... Mhmm. That AoE is pretty good.

Monk 5 / Cleric 5?

Monk 7 / Cleric 3?

Many Monastic Traditions scale off Monk level. Open Hand's lv3 is pretty independent of everything except your Ki pool, and Drunken Master's lv3 is as well. Long Death Monk is pretty well tied to Monk, and while Sun Soul gets a good ranged attack, I'd rather just punch and stun. Straight up NO WAY to Kensei, hard pass.

[OzDragon]

Well, I'd be starting at level 10.

So I'm really curious as to when I should cut off Cleric.

Trickery gets some GREAT spells to add to a Monk, especially Pass Without Trace. Though I could go Shadow Monk for that, but by MCing, I shorten up my Ki pool so maybe having it as a spell is better?

Meanwhile, Tempest just... Mhmm. That AoE is pretty good.

Monk 5 / Cleric 5?

Monk 7 / Cleric 3?

Many Monastic Traditions scale off Monk level. Open Hand's lv3 is pretty independent of everything except your Ki pool, and Drunken Master's lv3 is as well. Long Death Monk is pretty well tied to Monk, and while Sun Soul gets a good ranged attack, I'd rather just punch and stun. Straight up NO WAY to Kensei, hard pass.

You might want Monk 6/Cleric 4 you get 2 attacks then. Although you do not get level 3 spells. So if I were starting I might go 5/5 and take the next level in monk.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Well, I'd be starting at level 10.

So I'm really curious as to when I should cut off Cleric.

Trickery gets some GREAT spells to add to a Monk, especially Pass Without Trace. Though I could go Shadow Monk for that, but by MCing, I shorten up my Ki pool so maybe having it as a spell is better?

Meanwhile, Tempest just... Mhmm. That AoE is pretty good.

Monk 5 / Cleric 5?

Monk 7 / Cleric 3?

Many Monastic Traditions scale off Monk level. Open Hand's lv3 is pretty independent of everything except your Ki pool, and Drunken Master's lv3 is as well. Long Death Monk is pretty well tied to Monk, and while Sun Soul gets a good ranged attack, I'd rather just punch and stun. Straight up NO WAY to Kensei, hard pass.

Have you considered the amount of awesome you can aquire with a Lizardfolk Sun Soul 6/Light Cleric 4??? Shoot everything out of your mouth.

You become Godzilla sir. That’s like 9003 awesomes right there.

Edit: words are hard

[Rysto]

Going nature cleric gets you shillelagh, allowing you to focus on Wis more easily.

This actually doesn't work out so great as the Monk bonus action attacks are explicitly unarmed strikes, so Shillelagh doesn't help with those.

[JellyPooga]

Have you considered the amount of awesome you can aquire with a Lizardfolk Sun Soul 6/Light Cleric 4??? Shoot everything your of your mouth.

You become Godzilla sir. That’s like 9003 awesomes right there.

My next character; thanks! Pure awesome :smallbiggrin:

If only it had Enlarge Person...

[Vogie]

This actually doesn't work out so great as the Monk bonus action attacks are explicitly unarmed strikes, so Shillelagh doesn't help with those.

Monks still have extra attack at 5, which Druids do not. So even at 5, you'll do 2 armed attacks with d8s, and 2 unarmed attacks with d6s. It also helps before that, giving your monk weapon a d8 die while your "normal" attack is a d4. Also allows you to hit with Wisdom instead of Str or Dex.

[OzDragon]

Monks still have extra attack at 5, which Druids do not. So even at 5, you'll do 2 armed attacks with d8s, and 2 unarmed attacks with d6s. It also helps before that, giving your monk weapon a d8 die while your "normal" attack is a d4. Also allows you to hit with Wisdom instead of Str or Dex.

The damage from shilleleigh is only 2 more till level five and 2 more total with 2 attacks past that. Not worth it in my opinion.

[CTurbo]

Shillelagh is not worth it since Dex is still really important.

Clerics and Monks mesh really well together. A few levels of Cleric on a Monk adds some really cool stuff like Spells, Domain tricks and Channel Divinity, and a few levels of Monk adds some really cool stuff on a Cleric like Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, extra speed, KI, and subclass tricks


I've toyed with the idea of an "Electric" Monk/Tempest multiclass build. Not sure which Monk subclass to take as Long Death is my favorite but doesn't really fit the style. Maybe I'll go Open hand.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Shillelagh is not worth it since Dex is still really important.

Clerics and Monks mesh really well together. A few levels of Cleric on a Monk adds some really cool stuff like Spells, Domain tricks and Channel Divinity, and a few levels of Monk adds some really cool stuff on a Cleric like Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, extra speed, KI, and subclass tricks


I've toyed with the idea of an "Electric" Monk/Tempest multiclass build. Not sure which Monk subclass to take as Long Death is my favorite but doesn't really fit the style. Maybe I'll go Open hand.

ask your DM for a change of Radiant to Lightning damage for Sun Soul and use that. Just change burning hands to ......Lightning only Dragons breath? Thunderwave? probably just change it to thunder or lightning damage or use thunderwave.


everything else works tho.

[Citan]

The damage from shilleleigh is only 2 more till level five and 2 more total with 2 attacks past that. Not worth it in my opinion.


Shillelagh is not worth it since Dex is still really important.

Not necessarily.
Possibly not at all in fact.
It really depends of the kind of character you want, and the archetype of Monk you choose.
One must not forget that ASI are sparse, and you will wait the 3 last a looong time.
When you also want one or two feats, it makes sparing stat increases worthwhile.
(Even discounting the fact that at low levels Monks have little ki and small unarmed die so using a bonus action on Shillelagh is reimbursed over the fight, and the fact it's magical may save your hide until you find magic weapons).

In that regard, some Monk archetypes, like 4E or Shadow, can be steered towards a full stat.
Basically it boils down to "what do I want to do as bonus action" and "what kind of protection I want"?

A Shadow Monk could easily go full DEX, with Magic Initiate Wizard/Sorcerer, grabbing Booming Blade and Mage Armor, and pair that with Tempest Cleric 2 and possibly Rogue 1 (Expertise) to unleash powerful surprise attacks.

A Kensai x-Elf Monk could do something similar, grabbing 3 levels of Trickery Cleric to get even better accuracy usually (Bless), using Mirror Image for great protection combined with CD instead to get advantage against the biggest foe or support others while he dashes around.

In the opposite side, a Long Death Monk 6 (Sentinel) with 4 levels of Light Cleric (Magic Initiate: Druid) could main WIS to spend his time instilling Fear into enemies while using Flaming Sphere for damage, or switch to Extra Attack in medium armor and shield, using Ki for Dodge/Dash mainly to be extra tanky or Stunning Strike to keep one guy in place and possibly Bless to help with to-hit if not Shillelagh.

Thankfully wielding armor does not break everything in Monk features, so you have ways to make even armored characters work (although obviously Monk is the addition here: no bonus action attack neither unarmored AC nor bonus speed is a harsh deal).

Conversely...
- Open Hand is the most MAD of all: not only does he need DEX and WIS for AC and Stunning Strike, the fact his main feature is gaining extra attacks on which applying save or suck riders means he wants both DEX and WIS as high as possible, as early as possible.
- Shadow and Kensei are the most SAD.
- Sun Soul and Long Death works both ways, but if you want to optimize you'll have to choose one side still.
- Same principle with 4E, but the number of available disciplines makes the optimization easier.

[MrStabby]

I have wanted to (specifically like the idea of a knowledge cleric/shadow-monk mix for RP reasons. Mechanically I have never seen anything special.

The question is still about what you see your action being on your turn. If you are substantially monk, i.e. more than just a dip, you probably want to make an attack action most of the time. If you do... then what does the cleric levels bring? You want spells that still let you use your monk levels - long term buffs that can go up before the fight, neat reaction spells or really good bonus action spells.

Now cleric does have some long term buffs -Aid being a low enough level one. But are 5 HP per person going to be enough when you have picked up 5 levels of monk for extra attack and 3 levels of cleric for the level 2 spell slots? Neat reaction spells? Absorb elements, shield, counterspell... not on the cleric list. Great bonus action spells? Well looking at spiritual weapon and shield of faith- spiritual weapon is not good here - why spend a level 2 spell slot for a bonus action attack when you can just use the one your monk class features give you. Shield of faith is also not great on a monk - so many of their class abilities are about getting out and not being targeted - the monk is designed to make this spell bad.

There is an argument to pick up a bit of cleric for utility - for the out of combat spells, but ritual caster can get better results at a lower cost.



Could a dip of monk work on a cleric? This is a bit harder to say. You lose spellcasting progression and pick up unarmoured defence, a bonus attack option on a d4 die. This is pretty much a wash - if you wanted monk levels of armour class and damage you could have got them with a martial cleric with a Big-Ass weapon and heavy armour. As we are talking about adding monk levels to an existing cleric we are probably talking sufficiently late game that plate isnt a problem.

It is level 2 monk that actually adds a lot of use. Patient defence helps stop you being hit - that manoeuvre of running into the middle of a crowd and dropping spirit guardians is even more fun when you can dodge the same turn. Step of the wind is also awesome - you wont need to use it that often, but when you do that burst of speed is worth having. If you dont care to avail yourself of the level 1 features these still work in armour. The unarmoured movement is a bonus if you do ditch the armour and can help with some of the short range spells. Is it worth it? not for me but I can see a reason.



There are two things I could see being attractive for this combination. One is if there is a specific channel divinity you want - possibly including turn undead. When you expect to use it often enough this scales well from a couple of cleric levels and is actually potentially very powerful. If you were a 4 elements monk then conceivably the ability to max shatter damage through a couple of levels of tempest cleric might appeal... but given you can do that with just tempest cleric I don' see the attraction unless you play with a DM that offers loads of short rests.

The second is maybe something like Shadowmonk 6, Arcana Cleric 1, Rogue X. Drop booming blades and teleport out or use your teleport for advantage to try and land that one hit... Even so is that cleric dip offering enough over getting the cantrip through another means - say by being a high elf or through a feat?

[Wisefool]

The Tempest one is really intriguing to me. Maximizing Shatter would be excellent AoE capability for a Monk, and the idea of knocking someone on their ass with Open Hand plays well with the thunderous aspect of the domain.

Plus, although the 2d8 damage as a reaction isn't much... What else are you doing with your reaction if you aren't catching arrows?

I took a dip of Light Cleric for my monk. DM was expecting Life as I have Goodberry with my MagInt feat, but I felt Light gave me more utility. An extra cantrip over heavy armor I couldnt use. Burning Hands for the lone AoE attack in the martial-heavy party. But Warding Flare is the star of the dip. A fantastic reaction for my monk, making up for not having taken Mobile. It gets heavy usage of my reaction and has saved me from a few critical hits.

If you are only planning a single level dip, Light Cleric is the most synergistic domain with Monk. But it is tough to go wrong with any choice if the domain has something specific you want. Except War.

[Citan]

I have wanted to (specifically like the idea of a knowledge cleric/shadow-monk mix for RP reasons. Mechanically I have never seen anything special.

The question is still about what you see your action being on your turn. If you are substantially monk, i.e. more than just a dip, you probably want to make an attack action most of the time. If you do... then what does the cleric levels bring? You want spells that still let you use your monk levels - long term buffs that can go up before the fight, neat reaction spells or really good bonus action spells.

Now cleric does have some long term buffs -Aid being a low enough level one. But are 5 HP per person going to be enough when you have picked up 5 levels of monk for extra attack and 3 levels of cleric for the level 2 spell slots? Neat reaction spells? Absorb elements, shield, counterspell... not on the cleric list. Great bonus action spells? Well looking at spiritual weapon and shield of faith- spiritual weapon is not good here - why spend a level 2 spell slot for a bonus action attack when you can just use the one your monk class features give you. Shield of faith is also not great on a monk - so many of their class abilities are about getting out and not being targeted - the monk is designed to make this spell bad.

I'd argue you are just not pushing the reflexion far enough. :)
First, Bless at low levels is extremely worthy: you drop one attack (action on first turn) to get +1 min, average +2, on every attack roll after.

Shield of Faith is the other great helper: with starting 16 AC best case, this +2 may actually make a difference between life or death. It's not as good as Shield for emergencies, but it does only use bonus action so it's perfectly fine to use from level 1 to level X.
It's especially true at low levels: remember, Monk's unarmed attack is only 1d4 at low levels. Its Ki pool also is very limited, so he won't be able to use Dodge/Disengage/FoB very often, and apart from Open Hand who has a strong incentive to use FoB because of free riders, others have any imperative reason to prioritize FoB over anything else every time.
Since you still have to get into melee, and you don't have that many tools to retreat safely (yet), SoF is a good way to up your defense for at least one or two rounds (probably not more because of concentration breaking though, unless you're lucky).

Sanctuary too may be of some use when you need to stand ground for others, or if you have to cross a horde of enemies with little help from party (read: pinpoint attack on a backline guy, or the the last guy that covered from others and now need to flee alone).

From Domains, Light's Burning Hands is a nice tool in hands of someone who can easily maximize targeting (hence why 4E -and Sun Soul- are good), and Faerie Fire will make your hits (later Stunning Strike) and the whole party's attacks easier. Tempest's Fog Cloud can help you infiltrate or create a cover by blocking sight, Nature gives you SADness (Shillelagh) or "melee ranged attack with control" (Thorns Whip) or "insta-cover" (Mold Earth), Death gives you twinned ranged cantrip.

Light's Channel Divinity is useful whenever you fight darkness creatures, Life gives you emergency party Healing Words, Trickery gives you advantage on creatures, Knowledge makes you an emergency skill-monkey, Tempest makes you a decent AOE-giver when needed with Shatter.

On 2nd level spells, Spiritual Weapon does synergize with archetypes that have non-MA compatible actions (4e, Sun Soul, Long Death).
Enhance Ability will make any "grapple towards fall or trap" tactic very reliable (pairs especially well with Knowledge), Silence can (with help) allow you to disable casters, Hold Person is a nice alternative against high-CON creatures, Warding Bond pairs well with Open Hand to help protect a squishy when no real tank/defender is available.
From Domain's, Light's Flaming Sphere gives a much better damage-per-turn ratio on bonus action until some higher levels, Trickery makes you extremely resilient, Nature gives you auto-damage to build on with grapple, Knowledge gives you social tool with Suggestion, Forge gives you the amazing (though limited in scope) Heat Metal...

Really, whatever kind of character you want to make, there is greatness enough to pick from any kind of dip in (mostly) any Cleric, between the things that can be life-changers or life-savers at low character levels, and the features/spells that stay useful throughout your whole life.


EDIT: When I read you writing about a Knowledge/Shadow combo, I'm figuring a character that likes to manipulate people without them even knowing his existence, using extreme sneakyness to infiltrate mansions or castles, stealing whatever information he finds to blackmail them (Enhance Ability Intelligence/Wisdom and/or CD and/or Guidance), or wait until they are vulnerable and dictate them a line of conduct that would profit him (Command "Sign" on a legally binding contract, make a Suggestion to them), or plainly torturate/assassinate them (Silence)...
Or maybe he's a plain thief although in a different ways than the usual Thieves, specialized in magical relics, using Detect Magic and Identify to succeed where the others would be lured into stealing counterfeits or getting killed in weird traps...

[Tikkun]

I think taking 1 to 3 levels of cleric can add some 'flavour' to a character. But it seems all the discussion in this thread revolve around combat. In that regard, most monk archetypes will benefit most from a 3 level dip in fighter for the battle master archetype. You can pick and choose from your maneuvers--precision to roll a 1d8 after your roll for a to hit, riposte for a reaction attack, etc. In addition you get a tiny mini-heal, a fighting style ( +2 to hit with a bow, looking at you Kensei ) and action surge...great another chance to land that Stunning Strike. You still are SAD as DEX covers your MC. Plus you use the abilities to enhance what you do best--get in fast, strike quickly, get out. Why delay your involvement for a turn while casting?

Having said that, I have played a Long Death Monk 9/ Life cleric 3 in a campaign. It was mostly for my character's backstory--Priest of Death and Life--and I did notice that spending a turn casting Bless meant I engaged later then the rest of my party which had it's pluses and minuses. One thing I did note was that a monk's low CON can result in either making Concentration checks on the Bless or using ki for dodging. The cleric dip is great for flavour but might not be the most efficient use of a monk's role.

YMMV.

[MrStabby]

@Citan. You have some things I agree with and some things I don't.

Your point on spiritual weapon still being good value if you plan on using a monk class with a lot of uses for a non attack action. Monk of the Long death for example and their level 11 ability - I had kind of dismissed this as I had focussed on earlier levels rather than what you can do at level 14. Sun soul is a bit more accessible.

On the other side you have a bit of a focus on low levels, I find that whilst these do get played they tend to rattle past. Bless being worth it to miss out on a single attack might be true but as martial arts allows a second attack it is a little less true, and the attack action that a single classed monk could have is only single attack up to character level 4, so your point is true(ish, if you discount the bonus action) but only till level 5.

On the other hand, I just can't get my head round shield of faith on a monk - it isn't like shield where you can use it if you would be hit or even if you are attacked. It is a step taken because you want to get stuck in and be staying there on the enemy turn (or at least within reach). At best it seems like a nice to have, having already picked up cleric but not enough of a feature mechanically to warrant adding cleric to your monk.

[Citan]

Well, we agree that some of the things that are of value at low levels are much less at higher levels, considering how good Monk gets.

And one could make a strong argument against any dip for a character that should normally reach level 14-15 considering the greatness of lvl 11+ Monks. ^^

About Spiritual Weapon, I was actually rather thinking about things like...
- 4E Monk using their unique abilities or spell-like ones (level 3+).
- Long Death using the famous great "free Fear as an action" (lvl 6+).
- Sun Soul using their radiant ball (lvl 11+).
- Shadow Monk making a "moving Silence" (extremely niche case obviously, just saying because it happened to me *once* XD).
But TBH, I would say there are better spells to prepare for a Monk if you go for a 3-level Cleric multiclass. In other words, having only two 2nd level slots prevent it to be any case-builder by itself.
Of course, if you make a true dual-class, it's a different story. :)

On Bless, I'd say my point's validity completely depends on how long you fight (obviously, duh me). Sure, at level 5 you get better attacks (Extra Attack, more Ki to spend on FoB, better damage die).
So that means you are trading the first turn of your fight, which you could potentially use on 4 attacks, to do Bless and something else. But, it also means every subsequent attack (so 3*turns) will be enhanced.

When you start an encounter directly within enemy reach, Bless would indeed be a tough sell.
When you need to spend a big chunk of move to get into reach though? It's a matter of either Dashing as bonus action and Extra Attacking, or simply moving and casting Bless. Choose your pick (I play like a coward, so I'd actually pick the latter with a Dodge as bonus action while I'm closing in XD). :)

On Shield of Faith, well I'm not sure why you would think that just because of that I would like to play a sticky Monk. Of course I would still try to get some distance between. Ideally nobody would be able to attack me.
But sh** happens, in my experience at least. You may elect to try and kill an enemy with FoB but end missing, now you'll have to sustain an OA while pulling away. You may be targeted by several archers that don't fancy you trying to grapple back their caster or stunning their big tank (as much as I love the Deflect Arrows reaction, it does work only once).
Yeah, nothing beats Shield as an emergency, and SoF won't make any difference if you get ganged up because you're likely to be dead anyways before level 5 (and you're probably gonna drop concentration on the second or third attack anyways since low bonus on save).
So, yeah, I agree with you it's not necessarily a best-seller of a Cleric.
But overall it's exactly the same reason as why people get stat increases to get better AC or to-hit. In the long run, those 2 points amount to a great deal of difference.
Whether that difference actually mattered as the right time is another matter entirely. ^^
It's the curse of all these similar spells that you don't actually know when they made an actual difference (at least until you fought a creature often enough to guess its bonus to hit). XD

I also forgot to talk about Guiding Bolt and Inflict Wounds. At low levels, those are pretty fair game (my Monk/Cleric player actually won a fight with the latter after missing several fist thrusts consecutively. He RPed it as just having drunk too much the night before, then making a hilariously stupid prayer to his divinity to help him strike the felon).

--
If that can help you understand our difference of opinion on those spell's values, my games are usually small parties and encounters last at least 6 rounds average, sometimes dragging over 10-12 (among reasons, PCs are often outnumbered). Obviously for short encounters -2 or 3 rounds- the casting cost is usually not worth the action economy.
I also weigh in on the fact you get non-spells features and you can change spells at-will. I would be much stricter if you had known spells like other casters. But imo there are enough 1st level and 2nd level spells that stay useful from level 1 to 20, so when you feel SoB/Bless/whatever would be useless that day, just switch for pure utility. ;)

Also, obviously it depends on goal.
If someone asks me for "a build that is sure to survive up to char level 7", I'll push towards a 1-level dip.
If someone asks me for "a Monk with great utility", I may direct him to a 2-level or 3-level dip.
If someone asks me for "an optimized Monk"... I'd probably say "grit your teeth and go straight up to 14 then you can consider multiclassing" unless there is really something specific in mind.

[MrStabby]

@Citan, thanks for the response. I wish all debates on this site could be like this.

I would see this as two questions (again if we are looking at mechanics not flavour). If you are a predominantly cleric class and are going to assign further class levels what does monk add that another class doesnt do better (including more cleric).

Likewise if you have levels in monk, what does cleric add that another class doesn't.

I think a lot of people see the stats And think if there is a good match then there should be a solid multiclass option there. If someone were to be considering the multiclass from cleric and had a high dex I would invite them to see if their concept could be met mechanically by a dexterity fighter, a rogue or a ranger. Background and fluff can still cover a fighter or rogue training at a monastry. The mobile feat can give much of the feeling of a monk.

[Citan]

@Citan, thanks for the response. I wish all debates on this site could be like this.

I would see this as two questions (again if we are looking at mechanics not flavour). If you are a predominantly cleric class and are going to assign further class levels what does monk add that another class doesnt do better (including more cleric).

Likewise if you have levels in monk, what does cleric add that another class doesn't.

I think a lot of people see the stats And think if there is a good match then there should be a solid multiclass option there. If someone were to be considering the multiclass from cleric and had a high dex I would invite them to see if their concept could be met mechanically by a dexterity fighter, a rogue or a ranger. Background and fluff can still cover a fighter or rogue training at a monastry. The mobile feat can give much of the feeling of a monk.
These questions are clear enough that some kind of useful answer could be given, or at least I'll try.

Oneliner for dips (meaning 1-2)
- Monk dip for Cleric essentially brings extra defense&mobility for when you don't want to rely on armor or armor+shield for some reason.
- Cleric dip for Monk either bring a full alternative to how you play Monk (ditch Martial Arts completely) or bring a mix of short-rest and long-rest tools that expand his survivability early on and his utility over career.

In both cases, and for every character dips are not to be taken lightly because pushing interesting features of higher level much further down the road.
With that said, I wouldn't say Cleric and Monk are equal in that regard.
Cleric *could* for several Domains sacrifice the 18th level (not that I would recommend it, but not all Domains are equal there). Monk would imo, sacrifice too much by renouncing to Empty Body.
In the same regard, Clerics get short-rest defense that meshes well with their action economy and stays fully relevant whatever kind of situation you run into. Monk gets a great choice of spells but only 2-3 uses per long rest, which could legitimately feel frustratingly scarce, and trade for this two points of their do-it-all resource.
Things change at level 3 though, since the access to 2nd level spell and increase in slots makes it much more worthy... Because they can change spells.

As for meshing with one another for more levels (Always considering that there is a "main" class that will go at least 11 levels)?

Cleric dual-classing in Monk rather than other martials?
- Compared to Fighter, Monk brings much more unique things: more defensive tools (including against ranged), more mobility. The only great thing going for Fighter is Action Surge... But I don't see many cases of Cleric really needing to cast two full spells in the same turn (disclaimer though: never really played very high level Clerics so I may just miss some nice combos). And Constitution proficiency, which is indeed interesting, but a Resilient can take care of that.
Of course speaking here "in general": Eldricht Knight or Battlemaster may suit some concepts better (playing with Booming Blade as a Tempest, imposing smite effects with Precision as a Forge).

You may think at first view Shield from Eldricht Knight would be much better than Dodge as bonus action. Well, it really depends.
Besides the fact that you can't really predict when "imposing disadvantage" is better than "putting a -5 malus"...
Shield using reaction gives you free use of bonus action, but some Domains also have great reaction (Nature, Tempest, Light) and some Domains may not care that much about using bonus action repeatable spells like Spiritual Weapon (Bless+Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians+ Spiritual Weapon does eat kinda fast at your resources, especially if upcast. Unless you're sure fight is gonna drag, you may not want to cast SW and risk wasting it because fight lasted 3 rounds). Shield also can be Counterspelled or Dispelled, although this should be a fairly rare (or high-level) occurence.
Dodge requires you not being restrained which is another kind of deal, but this should also be a fairly rare occurence (usually restrain effects target the big melee guys, not the caster, for obvious reasons).
Finally while learning Shield means you could cast it (nearly) as often as needed, it also means you're eating into the resource that makes you a great contribution to the party. Each Shield cast is another Healing Words / Sanctuary / Bless / Guiding Bolt that won't be used for party.
Meanwhile, Monk's abilities are either free (Deflect Arrows) or short-rest (Dodge), so you have the best resource economy (did it happen to you that you're targeted by a ranged attack to try and break concentration on your Spirit Guardians -because obviously enemies realized the effect and nobody wants to close in anymore- ? If you have a group of archers aiming at you, well, you may regret not having Shield here indeed, but it probably wouldn't matter anyways as far as keeping spell alive goes. Chances are concentration will break because of the probabilities over a large number of attack (however, of course, Shield may save your life -for now- ;)).
But when you have only 1-2 attacks targeting you, since you decide to use Deflect Arrows once you know you're hit, you can reduce the damage by a significant amount, enough to bring concentration save into manageable range.

- Compared to Rogue, Monk brings a solid all-around package that does not create competition for main action (because if you dual-class Rogue, you'll probably have a regret if you don't use Sneak Attack). Rogue may probably be a better choice for some Domains for that exact reason though.
- Compared to Paladin, Monk brings, most simply, any avoidance of headache because of MAD requirements (plus Paladin has quite a few things that are redundant, and many of his good features would directly compete with Cleric's iconic ones).
- Compared to Ranger, Monk brings a package that is less versatile in offense (Ranger being good at ranged) and utility (Ranger getting some exclusives and great Druid spells). So Ranger may be actually the best choice if you mainly want to be more versatile while getting martial features.

And I see this way to expose is extremely painful to read. Sorry for that. I'll try something else for the revert. ^^

(Oh, I just realize I completely forgot about Barbarian: probably because the rage mechanics makes combination with magic certainly doable, but usually too cumbersome for the benefit).

Monk dual-classing in Cleric rather than other casters?
Cleric brings: prepared spells (TOP), that cover mainly buff and utility, but a few spells from base class or Domain are extremely worthy for offense (Spirit Guardians on a Open Hand for example, am I only one seeing the potential awesomeness in that?). Also short-rest features that can be awesome, although it depends on Domain choice.
Others?
- Druid: imo by far the best choice for caster multiclass "in general" for a Monk, because a) Wild Shape (you at the very least keep bonus mobility and Ki-defense/mobility) and b) much, much more variety of spells. I admit this is a strong bias of me towards versatility though. If all you care is the same set of handful of spells and that other casters have it, then the changing spell mechanics will fall short.
- Bard: many interesting things to bring to Monk, but CHA requirement and mainly utility (unless you're crafty).
- Sorcerer: great spell list, but very few spell known and CHA requirement. I could see a one-level dip in Draconic for armor, Shield emergency and cantrips but otherwise, no, until you have a specific concept that just need a few spells and metamagics (a Shadow Monk with Subtle is indeed very attractive).
- Warlock: if you can get past the CHA requirement, probably in the top tier for a multiclass, because while you cannot change prepared spells, you do have a short-rest restoration. So if you manage short-rests correctly (which you should do as a Monk), then a few levels could be enough to make you feel veeeerry powerful.
- Wizard: simply put, the worst of the worst, unless very specific concept requiring a School benefit.

In summary, you could ask me an efficient build with whatever dual-class, and I would bring it to you because such is the beauty of D&d 5e.

Any caster dual-class is certainly doable with the Monk: but only Cleric and Druid give you true flexibility so you can try different things until you get your balance, while others will usually require more (possibly much more ^^) thinking beforehand. Of course if you have something specific in mind then there is a good chance other casters will suit better.

Any martial dual-class would work as well for the Cleric, and the fact Cleric requires only WIS makes most choices equal in "building difficulty" (Paladin aside). Furthermore, contrarily to casters who are "magic wielders with accessory mechanics", each martial has a whole different direction he pursues. So from Cleric side, Monk cannot be an obvious "best" choice. Even for tanking, other classes have some arguments.
The one thing Monk does better than all others is giving a solid & balanced package of offense, defense and mobility that smoothly integrates with Cleric's base playstyle... AND recharges on a short-rest (incentive that Cleric already has because of Channel Divinity).

[Daumon]

Obviously they're both Wisdom heavy.

Monk is very 'frontline, but mobile'

Cleric is... Honestly, it can be fairly tanky. Its channel divinity refreshes on short rests.

In theory, it should go fairly well, I think. I'm just curious if anyone has thoughts of combos for Monastic Traditions and Domains that'd go fairly well together, and/or if they've done a Monk/Cleric MC before.


Side note: I know it doesn't work this way, but casting Spirit Guardians and then rushing through a group of enemies full speed like a blender of death is a hilariously awesome image to me.

Personally, I like Monk - Way of the Kensi combined with Cleric - War Priest.
The fun really starts about the time you reach Kensi 5th and War Priest 5th.
For my choices on spells, I selected the following.

Monk / Kensi
Weapons (Monk) Simple, Short Sword (Kensi) Rapier, Longbow
+ Selection would be slightly different for an Eastern style character.

Unarmed Attacks - d6

Feat - Athletics 5' move to stand, Climb no extra movement cost,
Running Broad or high jump requires only a 5' run distance.

Slow Fall 25'

Extra Attack - Take an extra attack along with the regular attack.

Ki Uses before rest x5.

Stunning Strike (Ki Use) DC (8 + Proficiency modifier + Wisdom modifier)

Deflect/Catch Arrow - Compare Missile damage to (d10 + Dex Mod + Monk Level)
Reduce the damage by the monks total. If damage <= 0 then monk catches.
Spend a Ki point to use weapon in a ranged attack immediately. Range 20'/60'

Cleric / Warpriest Bonus (Prepared Spells are my choices)

Spells 1st
Domain - Divine Favor, Shield of Faith
4x Prepared - Bane, Bless, Cure Light, Guiding Bolt

Spells 2nd
Domain - Magic Weapon, Spiritual Hammer
3x Prepared - Aid, Enhanced Ability, Prayer of Healing

Spells 3rd
Domain - Crusader's Mantel, Spirit Guardians
2x Prepared - Glyph of Warding, Revivify

Channel Divinity - Turn Undead and Guided Strike (+10 Hit)

Feat - Martial Adept (Selected Maneuvering attack and Parry)

Warpriest - One Bonus Attack per Point of Wisdom Bonus.

Overall Proficiencies: Acrobatics, Athletics, Insite, Investigation, Perception.

Druid works well too as a caster.

[bid]

Monk / Kensi
Weapons (Monk) Simple, Short Sword (Kensi) Rapier, Longbow
Why rapier when you can pick longsword or warhammer and still use Dex?

[Malifice]

Sun soul and Light domain is fluffy.

Ditto Death and Long Death.

[Citan]

Sun soul and Light domain is fluffy.

Ditto Death and Long Death.
In that aspect, I'd add...
- Nature/Light/Tempest with 4E.
- Trickery and Shadow.
- Trickery and Drunken.
- Life and Long Death.
- possibly Knowledge and Kensei (for a samurai feeling, those had much culture in different fields).

[Vorpalchicken]

I once played a heavy armor monk/cleric. It sounds terrible but wasn't as bad as it seems. It used strength for attacks- only had a 13 dex but had good wisdom , used pole arm mastery (so wasn't missing martial arts as much) Could still flurry of blows (just for stun attempts- damage was 1+Str only) and could stun on weapon attacks. (Not just monk weapons.) No extra monk mobility (This was the worst part of the build) but could still deflect missiles. And use subclass features.

I went death/war but open hand/nature would be cool too. The War bonus attacks were used when caught at range. It was a long time before I had enough Cleric levels to cast Spiritual Weapon so I wouldn't say it was a waste. If I tried it again I would probably only take one or two Cleric levels.

[Fire Tarrasque]

One level drop for Unarmored Defense can be a powerful tool.

[Daumon]

Why rapier when you can pick longsword or Warhammer and still use Dex?

You must have a different set of rules than I do.

Rapier is a finesse weapon and can use Str or Dex for its Modifier.

Both Longsword and Warhammer are Versatile.
So they can be used one-handed or do extra damage with two hands.
Neither is listed as a Finesse Weapon. So only a Strenght Modifier applies.

If I could use a Katana it would indeed be a long sword that has Finesse.
That would be a special DM allowed item in most games.

[bid]

You must have a different set of rules than I do.

Rapier is a finesse weapon and can use Str or Dex for its Modifier.
And neither martial arts nor kensei have anything to do with finesse.

[jaappleton]

Ok folks. Seems like people agree that Monk / Cleric is both flavorful and can be pretty darn good if done right.

Now, thankfully, Monk is a class that actually gets a TON of stuff. Like, a lot. Some of it is more useful than others, a lot of it is utility. But it also gets more Ki, which means you can do more Monk stuff! So whether I only dip into Cleric a bit or go for a longer investment, going back into Monk provides a lot.

The question is, what ratio of Monk / Cleric?

Monk 5 / Cleric 5?

Monk 7 / Cleric 3?

I think a lot depends on the Cleric Domain. Tempest? Shatter gives me a great AoE, when maximized. And I’m a Monk, I know I’m not a blaster. But it’s a solid ability to have in my back pocket.

If I go Light, I get Fireball at Cleric 5. That’s... Tempting. While the Channel Divinity will be less damage due to only being Cleric 5, it’s still Sunlight, which is worth a lot in many campaigns. It also gets me Warding Flare, which is a solid use of my reaction.

Trickery adds a lot defensively with its spells. I’m not sure where to stop with Trickery, though. 3 or 5? It gets me Pass Without Trace, which is an amazing spell.


Knowledge adds decent utility. Think I can stop at 3 there. But with ANY Domain, it’s tempting to go Cleric 5 just for Spirit Guardians...

Order is very interesting, as Order 5 gets me access to Slow. It also fits well with the traditionally Lawful nature of the Monk. Making everyone fall Prone with the Channel Divinity is also a fine way to lower an enemies speed and help control the battlefield, and grant Advantage. Plus I get to name myself Zod and say, “Kneel before Zod!”, and that gets bonus points.

[CTurbo]

Ok folks. Seems like people agree that Monk / Cleric is both flavorful and can be pretty darn good if done right.

Now, thankfully, Monk is a class that actually gets a TON of stuff. Like, a lot. Some of it is more useful than others, a lot of it is utility. But it also gets more Ki, which means you can do more Monk stuff! So whether I only dip into Cleric a bit or go for a longer investment, going back into Monk provides a lot.

The question is, what ratio of Monk / Cleric?

Monk 5 / Cleric 5?

Monk 7 / Cleric 3?

I think a lot depends on the Cleric Domain. Tempest? Shatter gives me a great AoE, when maximized. And I’m a Monk, I know I’m not a blaster. But it’s a solid ability to have in my back pocket.

If I go Light, I get Fireball at Cleric 5. That’s... Tempting. While the Channel Divinity will be less damage due to only being Cleric 5, it’s still Sunlight, which is worth a lot in many campaigns. It also gets me Warding Flare, which is a solid use of my reaction.

Trickery adds a lot defensively with its spells. I’m not sure where to stop with Trickery, though. 3 or 5? It gets me Pass Without Trace, which is an amazing spell.


Knowledge adds decent utility. Think I can stop at 3 there. But with ANY Domain, it’s tempting to go Cleric 5 just for Spirit Guardians...

Order is very interesting, as Order 5 gets me access to Slow. It also fits well with the traditionally Lawful nature of the Monk. Making everyone fall Prone with the Channel Divinity is also a fine way to lower an enemies speed and help control the battlefield, and grant Advantage. Plus I get to name myself Zod and say, “Kneel before Zod!”, and that gets bonus points.


I still think Tempest would be best. Being able to maximize Lightning/Thunder damage is awesome. You also gain a fun new reaction power. I'd go Cleric 5/Monk 15. I'd probably go Monk 5, then Cleric 5, then Monk from there, but Cleric 5 and then Monk from there would work too.

Which Monk were you thinking? I still like Long Death the Best but Open Hand is really fun too, as is Shadow.

[jaappleton]

I still think Tempest would be best. Being able to maximize Lightning/Thunder damage is awesome. You also gain a fun new reaction power. I'd go Cleric 5/Monk 15. I'd probably go Monk 5, then Cleric 5, then Monk from there, but Cleric 5 and then Monk from there would work too.

Which Monk were you thinking? I still like Long Death the Best but Open Hand is really fun too, as is Shadow.

I know I lose the Capstone no matter what, pretty much. I'm very much likely to only see the lv3 and lv6 features.

For that reason, I like Open Hand quite a bit. I think flavor-wise, its fairly independent. The ability to impose one of three conditions every time I Flurry is fairly appealing.

After that? I don't have much of a preference. I'm totally out on Sun Soul, I'm not much of a fan.

Shadow has its uses, but flavor wise its tough to pair that with certain Domains.

Totally, 100000% out on Kensei. I hate that.

Drunken Master is fairly appealing, though I don't know how often I'd be able to use the lv6 to redirect an attack. It's also useless against a single enemy boss style battle, which my DM runs fairly often.

Long Death... Its ok. It certainly works. Temp HP? Can't go wrong there. Frightened? Not bad, even if its an action.

4E? I don't think its worth it, even if it matches up flavor-wise to my Domain, if I MC. I'd like it more if I went pure Monk, but that's not what I'm doing here.

[MagneticKitty]

Dont pick forge cleric if you plan on going to lv 6, because you cant wear heavy armor. Tranquility monk gets extra healing.
Command cleric gives an extra attack to those they heal.theres a
Lot of bonus action competition...

If say either monk 5 / cleric x
Dump str
Gets you some good ac and mobility, and a second attack, the ability to be useful if dissarmed. If you are just doing monk for ac, (Realistically unless you wanna go stealth (shadow monk)) you're probably more durable as straight cleric with heavy armor

Contrary you could dip cleric
Cleric 8 / monk x
Or less cleric, but I think you're best with cleric x / dex fighter 5

[Daumon]

And neither martial arts nor kensei have anything to do with finesse.

I went for high Dex and Wis, not high Str. So Both the rapier and bow get a good bonus.
It also gives me a good AC to start with.

Yes, I know you could go for Str and get more damage with the Martial Arts Flurry of blows.
I wanted the AC and a few other Dex based skills along with the higher weapons damage.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I went for high Dex and Wis, not high Str. So Both the rapier and bow get a good bonus.
It also gives me a good AC to start with.

Yes, I know you could go for Str and get more damage with the Martial Arts Flurry of blows.
I wanted the AC and a few other Dex based skills along with the higher weapons damage.

Kensai can use any of their Kensai weapons with Dex. You don't need strength to use a warhammer on a Kensai for example. That's why he questioned the rapier choice.

[CantigThimble]

I think the best advantage of being a monk/tempest cleric is thunderwave. Having extreme mobility with (maximizable) thunderwave is great.

Okay so 10th level build: Stormcloud
Shadow Monk 6/Tempest Cleric 4
Maxed dex, 16 wis gets you decent AC. Your mobility is absurd as long as your DM isn't dead set against shadowstep. Tempest cleric lets you blow people up whenever you can hit 3+ enemies, which should be easy with your mobility. When you level up grab cleric 5 for teleporting spirit guardians of destruction.

[samcifer]

I'd be inclined to go Druid for the summons. More bodies on the field means more die rolls and therefore more attack rolls per turn. Granted that would mean wanting CON saves and a high CON score which would be pushing things even when you're playing ranged, which is in opposition to the melee-focused abilities of a good portion of the Monk's abilities.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I know I lose the Capstone no matter what, pretty much. I'm very much likely to only see the lv3 and lv6 features.

For that reason, I like Open Hand quite a bit. I think flavor-wise, its fairly independent. The ability to impose one of three conditions every time I Flurry is fairly appealing.

After that? I don't have much of a preference. I'm totally out on Sun Soul, I'm not much of a fan.

Shadow has its uses, but flavor wise its tough to pair that with certain Domains.

Totally, 100000% out on Kensei. I hate that.

Drunken Master is fairly appealing, though I don't know how often I'd be able to use the lv6 to redirect an attack. It's also useless against a single enemy boss style battle, which my DM runs fairly often.

Long Death... Its ok. It certainly works. Temp HP? Can't go wrong there. Frightened? Not bad, even if its an action.

4E? I don't think its worth it, even if it matches up flavor-wise to my Domain, if I MC. I'd like it more if I went pure Monk, but that's not what I'm doing here.

I still think the Godzilla approach is best. Light/Sun Soul is good. Fire lazors out of your mouth. You can play ranged or melee at any time too.

Be a lizardman. Do it. Its fun. You'll love it.

Or if planeshift is open for grabs. be a Hawk-Headed Aven and start with wings, +2 +2 dex and wis, and perception plus long ranged attacking gives no disad. Still do Light/SunSoul and shoot lances of sunlight to praise Ra. matter of fact BE RA. start 10/17/12/9/17/10. Level 4 +1 dex/+1 wis. Level 8 +2 dex. Sun Soul 8/ Light 2. You'll be level 10 with Maxed Dex and 18 wisdom. Which is 19 AC. pretty great for a monk at that level.

[strangebloke]

fun thoughts:

Githzerai war cleric 1/kensei X: Cast shield of faith. Use agile parry. Patient Defense. Shield. You are untouchable with 29 effective AC at level 5, or 21 when you've used shield. Switching to damage you have divine favor on top of deft strike on top of kensei's shot on top of being able to use kensei weapons for a little extra damage. At 6th level you'll deal something like 44 damage a turn in melee and 30.5 damage a turn at range.

Tortle Nature Cleric 1/Open Palm X:Dex is for suckers. Go heavily into wisdom and strength. Pick up PAM and you can actually ignore strength, too.

Goblin Trickery Cleric 2/Shadow X:Blessing of the Trickster, pass without trace, bonus action hide, teleport in darkness, and you can create a duplicate as a distraction or to cast spells for you. You're a fricking ghost, man.

[Citan]

I know I lose the Capstone no matter what, pretty much. I'm very much likely to only see the lv3 and lv6 features.

For that reason, I like Open Hand quite a bit. I think flavor-wise, its fairly independent. The ability to impose one of three conditions every time I Flurry is fairly appealing.

After that? I don't have much of a preference. I'm totally out on Sun Soul, I'm not much of a fan.

Shadow has its uses, but flavor wise its tough to pair that with certain Domains.

Totally, 100000% out on Kensei. I hate that.

Drunken Master is fairly appealing, though I don't know how often I'd be able to use the lv6 to redirect an attack. It's also useless against a single enemy boss style battle, which my DM runs fairly often.

Long Death... Its ok. It certainly works. Temp HP? Can't go wrong there. Frightened? Not bad, even if its an action.

4E? I don't think its worth it, even if it matches up flavor-wise to my Domain, if I MC. I'd like it more if I went pure Monk, but that's not what I'm doing here.
Well, it seems you have a pretty good idea of the Monk archetype you want. ;)

So now it's just about deciding what best cut use and what archetype?
Honestly it really depends.

If you tend to put resilience above the rest and/or like to set up conditions for an encounter, Trickery Cleric seems a big contender to me: Pass Without Trace will help you set up party-wide ambushes, Mirror Image will be a great fit on a 18-20 DEX character to help you dig in and out of enemy lines safely.

You also get a "moving advantage" as a bonus action, which doubles as an emergency helper so you can stabilize someone or double down with an extended Healing Words while keeping your steady position as a "frontliner" (kinda). And the competition with FoB should be bearable unless the whole party focus fire on one enemy and manages to kill it in one round.

And that way you keep a pretty decent amount of Ki AND the big Evasion feature, and you'll be shy away from a welcomed ASI.

While we're still in the "3 most" suggestions...
Forge can be a decent choice mainly if you know you'll fight many armored people: using Heat Metal may seem redundant use of bonus action, as Open Hand you'll often want to use FoB, but in toughest fights it may be worth still because you'll rather use Ki on Stunning Strike with advantage.
But TBH it's pretty niche, just saying FYI, not really seriously suggesting it (unless you're looking for party benefit: imbuing a weapon or armor is a nice thing).^^

Knowledge, as always, is another pretty good contender for reasons explained above, which are Channel Divinity (+ possibly Enhance Ability) and Suggestion.
But you seem to be looking for combat optimized dual-class, so I guess this one will step aside.

On that note, Tempest does not seem a good fit here, unless of course you plan on playing this character up to level 14 or so, taking mainly Clerics level to reach Monk 8 / Cleric 6 or Monk 7 / Cleric 7 in the end.
Unless of course you would be the only one in party with some access to AOE -or you just want to be the Shattering Cleric because coolness-, I'm afraid you'll get bored quickly of dealing always the same kind of damage while enemies get increasingly high HP. And Fog Cloud, while nice, could be gotten from a single level of Druid instead.

Light however is a good challenger of Trickery: although it won't help much in defense (albeit it does have the nice Warding Flare, it's a long rest) when you want to conserve Ki Flaming Sphere can be a sweet deal: you don't need to move it every turn, so it should be more or less "as competitive" as Trickery's CD for bonus action: you could very well instead Grapple/push enemies into it.

It's the same idea with Nature with Spike Growth, although in a different way: while Flaming Sphere gives more bang for buck in crowds, Spike Growth would scale better as you get more Monk levels: damage is automatic, per 5 feet traveled, and the willingness of move is irrelevant: just moving a Grappled creature around (while keeping yourself just outside the area obviously) is a nice way to amp your damage for free when you didn't intend to move much.
Evident drawback si that you need to anticipate correctly the placement of the spikes, otherwise you'll just have wasted the spell.
Evident bonus is that everyone can benefit of it (much like Flaming Sphere, contrarily to Trickery) and you also put some control since it's difficult terrain.
Cherry on cake, picking Nature means you can also get either...
- Shillelagh, which is for you kinda useless (as Open Hand, you will want at least 18 DEX anyways, and your unarmed are magical already since you bootstrap level 7).
- Thorns Whip, which is much more interesting, as an alternative to Extra Attack when you don't plan on using FoB for any reason in the first place (plus, it works even if you are grappling someone). You can use it to control enemies, with or without Spike Growth.

So, in short, for Monk 7 / Cleric 3:
- Knowledge only if you want to be a skillmonkey.
- Nature if you want a mix of permanent and nova "damaging control" tools.
- Light for a balance of utility (CD), offense (spells) and defense (Warding Flare), with a biais on nova offense.
- Trickery for another balance of utility (CD/Disguise Self/Suggestion), offense (CD) and defense (Mirror Image), with a biais on sustained combat improvement (CD being usable in both offensive and defensive ways, and being recharged on a short-rest, like all your Monkish power).

And for a 5/5 (which I wouldn't recommend unless, again, you know you'll play for a long time and you'll get Monk 7 / Cleric 6 as a priority)
- Light: ONLY if you really want Fireball, but honestly...
- Tempest: becomes a very, very strong contender, because added slots and spells means either several maximized (upcast) Shatter per day, or providing great area control occasionally with Sleet Storm.
- Nature: also gets a big upgrade, between access to Plant Growth (even if you're also affected, your mobility makes it manageable, while you will kill 90% of movement of all enemies around) and a great teamwork reaction (half damage for you or an ally against elemental damage).
- Trickery: Blink is one of the best defensive spells although hard to rely on, but the main value is next level bringing another CD per short rest. If you manage to exploit Duplicate efficiently, then all the more reason to pick this. If for you CD was just "one among other" benefits, then I'd say it drops just below Tempest and Nature unless you're afraid of defense (being able to "spam" Mirror Image for each encounter is nice).


I went for high Dex and Wis, not high Str. So Both the rapier and bow get a good bonus.
It also gives me a good AC to start with.

Yes, I know you could go for Str and get more damage with the Martial Arts Flurry of blows.
I wanted the AC and a few other Dex based skills along with the higher weapons damage.
You missed the point (and the rules by the look of it ^^).
Per RAW, any weapon the Monk gets proficiency into from being a Monk can be indifferently used with DEX or STR. So, basic (and important) example, any Monk can use Javelins (which have 10 more feet in normal range than daggers and deal more damage at low level) with his DEX. Like he could also throw Light Hammers with DEX.
Kensai just expands that special category of "Monk weapons" (which gain, if you prefer, a special property "monk-compatible" but not finesse to avoid Sneak Attack power creep) by allowing you to choose additional weapons to include in that list.

[jaappleton]

The idea of Light/Open Hand is appealing, conjuring Flaming Sphere and using Open Hand to knock people into it repeatedly...

But I think Knowledge or Trickery is going to win out. Trickery adds so much. Knowledge adds a ton of utility, especially by basically granting me Expertise in two Knowledge skills.

Thinking Trickery wins here.

I’d had this idea of a Ghostwise Halfling, but he can’t control his telepathy and it ends up broadcast his honest opinions at terrible times.

“How that’s a nice looking weapon there!”
-You must have stolen it from someone that can actually put it to use, you damn loser.-

EDIT: Also, Citan... As always, you killed it with the in-depth analysis. Damn, you’re good.

[Citan]

The idea of Light/Open Hand is appealing, conjuring Flaming Sphere and using Open Hand to knock people into it repeatedly...

But I think Knowledge or Trickery is going to win out. Trickery adds so much. Knowledge adds a ton of utility, especially by basically granting me Expertise in two Knowledge skills.

Thinking Trickery wins here.

I’d had this idea of a Ghostwise Halfling, but he can’t control his telepathy and it ends up broadcast his honest opinions at terrible times.

“How that’s a nice looking weapon there!”
-You must have stolen it from someone that can actually put it to use, you damn loser.-

EDIT: Also, Citan... As always, you killed it with the in-depth analysis. Damn, you’re good.
Thanks, you're welcome. ;)
Also, I damn love your character concept, it's very ballsy (too much for me to try it myself XD, would be too terrified on the idea of fully derailing any kind of social encounter, and having such character in my party would send me on intense emotional rollercoaster of laughs and angriness, which is kinda the best thing you can expect of game because those are the way to sticky memories ^^).

@strangebloke: those are very nice concepts too. The only small critic I'd make on the first one is that you're so untouchable, that enemies will just skip you altogether, even if you demonstrate yourself as also a big damage dealer. And you'll have no real means to aggro them either, only thing you could do is bet on a successful OA killing one enemy that you put into your reach in your own turn. Or trying to run all around the battlefield to stun as many enemies as possible, because they will also probably spread around to limit your ability to kill per round.

[strangebloke]

@strangebloke: those are very nice concepts too. The only small critic I'd make on the first one is that you're so untouchable, that enemies will just skip you altogether, even if you demonstrate yourself as also a big damage dealer. And you'll have no real means to aggro them either, only thing you could do is bet on a successful OA killing one enemy that you put into your reach in your own turn. Or trying to run all around the battlefield to stun as many enemies as possible, because they will also probably spread around to limit your ability to kill per round.

Typically monks are criticized for not being very good damage dealers, somewhat fragile, and bad at range. This build is fun because it plays against that type.

Also, I'll note that since @jaapleton plays with a two-man raid party, 'aggro' isn't likely a concept that matters to him.

[Temperjoke]

While there might be less opportunity for use of the Drunken Master Monk in your game, I would point out that it would be very flavorful that a cleric, jaded from a life of priesthood, turned to drink. And then gets that propensity for drink turned into something useful in combat. (I know that nothing in the drunken master actually requires drinking to function, it's just for flavor)

[CTurbo]

Typically monks are criticized for not being very good damage dealers, somewhat fragile, and bad at range. This build is fun because it plays against that type.

Also, I'll note that since @jaapleton plays with a two-man raid party, 'aggro' isn't likely a concept that matters to him.

While I agree with you about what the Monk is criticized for, I've always felt like the criticism was unfair and not justified.

They are not bad damage dealers, and being Dex based, there is no reason for them to be BAD at ranged attacks.

They get a reliable bonus attack that does scale a little. You have the option of making 2 bonus action attacks.

The "problem" is they lack offensive feat support. GWM and PAM rarely apply to them, but Sharpshooter could even though they can't get archery.

They aren't THAT squishy either. They have a 1d8 hit die which is average. They have ki options that let them dodge or disengage if they need to, and plenty of speed to get away. They also have Evasion and Deflect arrows which are good ways to prevent damage.

I played a Wood Elf Monk of Long Death, and I did have the benefit of having great stat rolls, but I was easily right there with the PAM fighter in DPR from levels 4-9, and I was the highest from levels 1-3. I'm sure the Fighter would pull ahead at level 11, but there was never a point where I was going to be even average, much less below average in DPR.

At level 5-
With a 20 Dex and a +1 staff, I could do a reliable 3d6+17 per round with an option of doing another 1d6+5. (27.5 -36 dpr)
The Fighter with 20 Str and +1 Halberd was doing 2d10+1d4+18 per round. (31.5 dpr).
The Rogue with 20 Dex and +1 Short Sword was doing 4d6+6 (20 dpr) per round, but not even every single round.
I took Sentinel so my reaction attack was just as reliable if not more so than the Fighter's.

[Citan]

Typically monks are criticized for not being very good damage dealers, somewhat fragile, and bad at range. This build is fun because it plays against that type.

Also, I'll note that since @jaapleton plays with a two-man raid party, 'aggro' isn't likely a concept that matters to him.
Aw, I completely oversaw that bit. Nice then.


While I agree with you about what the Monk is criticized for, I've always felt like the criticism was unfair and not justified.

They are not bad damage dealers, and being Dex based, there is no reason for them to be BAD at ranged attacks.

They get a reliable bonus attack that does scale a little. You have the option of making 2 bonus action attacks.

The "problem" is they lack offensive feat support. GWM and PAM rarely apply to them, but Sharpshooter could even though they can't get archery.

They aren't THAT squishy either. They have a 1d8 hit die which is average. They have ki options that let them dodge or disengage if they need to, and plenty of speed to get away. They also have Evasion and Deflect arrows which are good ways to prevent damage.

I played a Wood Elf Monk of Long Death, and I did have the benefit of having great stat rolls, but I was easily right there with the PAM fighter in DPR from levels 4-9, and I was the highest from levels 1-3. I'm sure the Fighter would pull ahead at level 11, but there was never a point where I was going to be even average, much less below average in DPR.

At level 5-
With a 20 Dex and a +1 staff, I could do a reliable 3d6+17 per round with an option of doing another 1d6+5. (27.5 -36 dpr)
The Fighter with 20 Str and +1 Halberd was doing 2d10+1d4+18 per round. (31.5 dpr).
The Rogue with 20 Dex and +1 Short Sword was doing 4d6+6 (20 dpr) per round, but not even every single round.
I took Sentinel so my reaction attack was just as reliable if not more so than the Fighter's.
Completely agree on that post, Monks are unfairly underrated damage-wise, although they actually beat most of the classes in sustained damage when evaluated "alone" (without party support) and "theorically" (without taking reach requirements into account). The fact that they have a hard requirement on being in melee does hamper them a bit though compared to a Ranger or Fighter, but that's the exact reason why they made Sun Soul's level 3 ability (decent ranged attacker) then Kensai archetype (full-blown ranged attacker).

But honestly, even on other Monks, Sharpshooter is a very interesting choice when you think getting in melee will be a challenge on an "occasional but regular" basis: use Javelins as your usual one-handed weapon, when you need two ranged attacks just draw another one. Of course, for a true ranged fight, you'll still suck hard unless you got proficiency with an ammunition weapon one way or another. But hey, if Monk didn't have at least one significant weakness it would be boring, right? :=)

Same with defense: people focus on the very low levels, which is understandable because those are the most played, and there is a complexity in proper resource management, but after level 6-7 you can easily play a bit of all your strengths in every fight, and Dodge as a bonus action is efficient. Although it's really in the saves department than Monk tops everyone, Paladin included except niche situations (level 18-20 Ancient Paladin with Circle of Power active).

[CTurbo]

I totally forgot to mention my Wood Elf Long Death Monk made good use of a Longbow on several occasions. No "ranged" feat support or anything. Just good old fashioned 2d8+10 damage per turn.

Monks do benefit from great stat rolls a lot more than a lot of other classes though. I did kind of have a best case scenario Monk starting with a 20 Dex and 18 Wis. By level 8, I had a 21 unarmored AC. This character was a pure beast in combat. Then I found a +2 staff around level 9.