Erastil approved Kingmaker.

[Scryangi]

Erastil: "There’s a reason you don’t see slums in villages; that’s city-stink, where some folk think it’s all right for someone else to suffer just so they can have an easy life. What good is wealth if it costs you your dignity, your soul?”


I am starting to run Kingmaker, and wonder how to go about building a kingdom that can live in harmony with the wilds. Should we make lots of little villages? One large metropolis that we could use large quantities of spells and items on to replace farming and mining? To quote from another thread:

Think about the Create Water "cantrip". A 10th level Cleric/Druid can generate 20 gallons / 6 seconds an infinite number of times. That's 120,000 gallons / hour. Of course, you can put a simple version on a ring for 1000gp and give your town an infinite well. Even less if your Wizard has ring crafting.

Are there rules about making peace with the local feywild inhabitants or such?

[chimaeraUndying]

There's definitely a lot of practical applications of magic that, if applied at a large scale (as wondrous architecture or resetting traps, for instance) could massively improve the quality of life for those nameless hordes not graced with the rare essence of "Being a PC". This can certainly get... Tippy... though, since D&D just isn't really intended to deal with stuff like that. Even Kingmaker feels like it makes a lot of concessions in trying to be a kingdom-building game while still letting the players play "conventional" D&D -- I'd absolutely love to play a more dedicated kingdom builder, and I think D&D can definitely support that.

Anyway, another create water-like spell is plant growth, particularly its alternate mode which bolsters a half-mile radius of crops for a year. If you assume this stacks (since it's not really a bonus per se) you could massively improve the food production of a state, which means all the citizens can be afforded free food and water.

[Scryangi]

Oh, and Control Weather! After all, the results are right there in the rules:

Good Weather: Good weather raises spirits and productivity. Economy, Loyalty, and Productivity increase by 2 until the next Event Phase.

[Rynjin]

Don't forget, if you want an Erastil approved country you need to outlaw homosexuality and dictate when people get married and have kids.

Making anything "Erastil approved" is a pain, because he's kind of a prick. "Erastil’s faith is essentially all or nothing. Either you accept his teachings and belong to your Erastil-worshiping community, or you do not", after all.

[Scryangi]

Don't forget, if you want an Erastil approved country you need to outlaw homosexuality and dictate when people get married and have kids.

Making anything "Erastil approved" is a pain, because he's kind of a prick. "Erastil’s faith is essentially all or nothing. Either you accept his teachings and belong to your Erastil-worshiping community, or you do not", after all.

Nah, I like the guy. He's like Saint Cuthbert, the god of common sense. His entire religion boils down to "true happiness comes from having a family," and I can respect that. As a community may not grow too large, homosexuals fulfill a very important role, that of care and protection without contributing to overpopulation. That, and they're like, the nicest people in the world.

[Psyren]

Think about the Create Water "cantrip". A 10th level Cleric/Druid can generate 20 gallons / 6 seconds an infinite number of times. That's 120,000 gallons / hour. Of course, you can put a simple version on a ring for 1000gp and give your town an infinite well. Even less if your Wizard has ring crafting.

PF Create Water vanishes after an hour.

For "nature can exist in harmony with a city" type philosophies, I'd start with the Selesnya Guild from Magic the Gathering's Ravnica setting.

[Scryangi]

PF Create Water vanishes after an hour.

For "nature can exist in harmony with a city" type philosophies, I'd start with the Selesnya Guild from Magic the Gathering's Ravnica setting.

If I understand this game right, then it's about many small creatures working together for big effects, and all being seen as part of a greater whole, led by an entity that's a hive mind. The creatures aren't that strong individually, but can lend their energy to the spellcasters, or be sacrificed as pawns or in rituals.

[Florian]

I am starting to run Kingmaker, and wonder how to go about building a kingdom that can live in harmony with the wilds. Should we make lots of little villages? One large metropolis that we could use large quantities of spells and items on to replace farming and mining? To quote from another thread:

You're asking a somewhat wrong question(s). Erastil is a L deity and strongly connected to the tamed, controlled "wilderness" that goes hand in hand with civilization. You are the hunter, they are the prey and such. The C aspects of the Fey are actually the enemy here.

Unlike usual forum-talk, you won't be able to replace anything with magic, as the higher-level rules, like Downtime or Kingdom Building shut down any attempt to do so, especially once Mass Battle rules come into play.

Basically, the Kingdom Building rules by themselves will govern how you must plan your kingdom, once you understand what the values of the kingdom character sheets mean and how you can tweak them. You will have switch between developing your cities and the surrounding countryside to support the cities, while trying to maintain roughly three cities per map of the campaign and building up the infrastructure to connect and maintain those. Be advised to never spent your full budget, campaign events will force you to some crisis spending when the going gets rough, also keep a reserve large enough to create and maintain at least medium-sized armies of lvl 5 Paladins and Rangers and maybe train up a cohort with max. Cavalier (Daring General) levels to lead them.

Hint: On each map, there´re sites that either give free building when creating a town, or provide a massive discount on high-level buildings, which in turn give a discount on associated buildings. On the first map, the Stag Fort is a non-brainer with the 50% discount on the castle, but you will want to start your second town at Erastils Temple, to gain the gods favor and the 50% discount on the Cathedral, boosting your magic item production and such.

[Elricaltovilla]

If you are planning on using the Kingdom Building Rules and Mass Battle Rules as they are presented in Kingmaker, then you should make sure to familiarize yourself with those rules before trying to shenanigan your way to a post-scarcity society via magic.

The short version is that those rules effectively prevent you from doing so in a rather hamfisted way (by basically saying "no, you can't do that.") At high levels, you can actually do more by ignoring kingdom building or mass battle rules altogether, depending on your party makeup.

As for integrating Erastilian philosophies into your kingdom, it's not terribly difficult. The rules don't have the granularity necessary to define socioeconomic classes within your kingdom beyond "nobles" and "commoners," so you can just roleplay that your kingdom provides the kind of strong societal support network that Erastil would insist upon. There is even a significant character who is an Erastilian priest that your GM can use to help guide you in following those teachings, should that be necessary.

Basically, you want to "use" your taxes to provide a strong social support network, incentivize marriage and family life, and encourage conservation efforts in your kingdom. 90% of which is basically just roleplay as the rules don't cover that sort of thing.

[Scryangi]

You two gave me a lot to think about.



The short version is that those rules effectively prevent you from doing so in a rather hamfisted way (by basically saying "no, you can't do that.") At high levels, you can actually do more by ignoring kingdom building or mass battle rules altogether, depending on your party makeup.



Could you tell me what you mean by that?

[Elricaltovilla]

You two gave me a lot to think about.



Could you tell me what you mean by that?

For example, under construction, the rules state this:


Construction: Construction is completed in the same turn you spend BP for the building, no matter what its size is. a building’s benefits apply to your kingdom immediately. At the GM’s discretion, construction magic (such as lyre of building, fabricate, or wall of stone) can reduce a single building’s BP cost by 2 (minimum 0). This is a one-time reduction per turn, regardless of the amount of magic used.

Basically the designers have outright stated that they didn't want people to be able to use magic to "cheat" around building stuff the normal way, so the rules either disallow you to create/use society improving magic or significantly reduce its effectiveness.

Essentially they imposed a low-magic rule set on a normally high magic game system. Gotta maintain that medieval status quo!

[Scryangi]

For example, under construction, the rules state this:



Basically the designers have outright stated that they didn't want people to be able to use magic to "cheat" around building stuff the normal way, so the rules either disallow you to create/use society improving magic or significantly reduce its effectiveness.

Essentially they imposed a low-magic rule set on a normally high magic game system. Gotta maintain that medieval status quo!

Huh. Those were not indeed exactly what I was going to abuse, thank you. I was looking at the magical street lanterns, 5 BP worth, and figured that I could cast 4 Continual Flame myself daily, thus needing only 1 BP for the lanterns themselves.

And with the Mass Combat rules you mean that it would be more efficient to have the PC fight the armies directly.

I should pass some law, like the Grand Injunction, stating that no mages are allowed to be used in direct warfare, kind of like MAD--no one wants magic artillery and nukes to become conventional.

[Elricaltovilla]

Huh. Those were not indeed exactly what I was going to abuse, thank you. I was looking at the magical street lanterns, 5 BP worth, and figured that I could cast 4 Continual Flame myself daily, thus needing only 1 BP for the lanterns themselves.

And with the Mass Combat rules you mean that it would be more efficient to have the PC fight the armies directly.

I should pass some law, like the Grand Injunction, stating that no mages are allowed to be used in direct warfare, kind of like MAD--no one wants magic artillery and nukes to become conventional.

Yes, at the levels where you start fighting armies, your party could relatively easily take down a small army themselves.

Don't bother disallowing warmages though. Just because you do it, doesn't guarantee your enemies won't use warmages.

[Reversefigure4]

The Kingdom rules only work if you play by them, using them to overwrite the normal magic rules. No Control Weather or Plant Growth to enhance your kingdom's crops. No PCs vs armies. No Decanters of Endless Water.

If you want to let the PCs run amok, you'll need to make up your own rules from the get-go. It's a lot of work - simply getting players who will accept the nature of the rules is vastly easier.

[Rynjin]

Single champions vs armies is actually ENABLED by the mass combat rules, not removed. By normal rules a single PC vs 200 mooks ends in a dead PC; the action economy and statistical disadvantage is weighted too far against them for even a slim chance of success.

Mass Combat sets "single unit armies" as CR-8. That would make a Level 10 Fighter the equivalent of a CR 2 army, for instance (200 CR 1/2 Orc Warrior 1's, as an example).

The troop combat rules streamline this to army attack rolls vs another army, putting the two armies on an even keel.