New Spell Design (want feedback)

[foL]

Hi, so I tried to design a new spell for DnD 5e. What do you guys think? Is it balanced? Does it make sense? Does it work?

Sleep Paralysis
1st-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
You touch one unconscious creature. It cannot regain consciousness for the duration of this spell. If the target takes damage, this spell’s effect ends, but it does not regain consciousness if it normally would after taking damage. When it regains consciousness, if this spell was ended by inflicting damage on it, it remembers the damage it took as some horrible nightmare. Once this spell’s effect ends on a creature, that creature becomes immune to its effects for the next 12 hours.

I should probably tell you what I was trying to achieve with this spell.
I wanted to create a spell that would allow you to attack people while they're sleeping and run off without them finding out. For example, a vampire biting people.

Could you at least tell me whether it's good or bad?

[Amnoriath]

You achieved what you wanted but with that being said this sounds more like illusion to me as really all it does is trick people into thinking they weren't attacked as sleeping falls under being unconscious.

[nickl_2000]

It's odd, I would be using this spell for sneaking a lot more than I would be for damaging someone and walking away.

Oh, is the guard asleep. I'll cast this spell and then I have 1 hour of freedom to do whatever I like (steal stuff, kill the bbeg, etc). I don't like that the spell has no save though. I feel like it should have some sort of save to prevent the effect on it.

[Amnoriath]

I agree with nickl_2000 on this one.

[igordragonian]

Without a save it could be devasasting. Yes.
If you want it to be necromanctic, do something like "Soul Paralyze".

Then, his soul is elsewhere, maybe even in the Shadow Plane(?).
Hurting the physical body return the soul.
The soul traumatized, and can't understand the source of his damage.

Maybe Int Save negate this effect.

Just an offer.

[Yddisac]

I'd like to offer a dissenting opinion on the saving throw point. The spell has two major balancing factors already: that it only affects people who are already asleep, and that it's concentration.
The fact that the targets have to be asleep makes a saving throw less than ideal from where I sit. From a gameplay perspective, the player would have to contrive some way of knocking their opponents out in the first place. That's when the opponents get to resist. Using nickl's example, the player either has to wait for a GM to hand them a sleeping guard or knock out the guard somehow. The guard's opportunity to resist comes while they're still awake.
Besides, the spell is concentration, which is a major balancing point in itself. IMO, that's all it needs. Adding a save on top of the rest makes a very niche spell all but useless. (Besides, if the spell fails, does the target wake up or does the spell just bounce off?)
The spell's stealth use is quite niche anyway. Invisibility is strictly superior for stealth purposes, even if the guard does happen to be asleep to begin with.
If we're still concerned about the spell's potential for abuse, rather than requiring a saving throw, I'd recommend tweaking the spell so the victim can still wake up from, e.g., noise, but won't wake up from damage or other physical sensations. That would peg it so squarely into its niche that I doubt anyone would take it unless they wanted to fulfil the purpose in the OP. That said, I honestly think it's fine as is. I can't think of much potential for abuse here that other spells wouldn't accomplish better. The only "abuse" I can think of is itself so situational that I don't think it's worth patching (like drowning or suffocating people in their sleep, which are classic moves anyway).

I would agree that this spell should be in the Illusion school rather than Necromancy. That way Arcane Trickster rogues, who are much more likely to get use out of this spell's stealth aspect than wizards or clerics, can learn it. (Either that, or don't put it on any spell lists and just make it a racial thing for whichever vampiric race you want to pick it up. If you're really concerned about balance, which I'm not, that should be an easy fix.)

[nickl_2000]

I'd like to offer a dissenting opinion on the saving throw point. The spell has two major balancing factors already: that it only affects people who are already asleep, and that it's concentration.
The fact that the targets have to be asleep makes a saving throw less than ideal from where I sit. From a gameplay perspective, the player would have to contrive some way of knocking their opponents out in the first place. That's when the opponents get to resist. Using nickl's example, the player either has to wait for a GM to hand them a sleeping guard or knock out the guard somehow. The guard's opportunity to resist comes while they're still awake.
Besides, the spell is concentration, which is a major balancing point in itself. IMO, that's all it needs. Adding a save on top of the rest makes a very niche spell all but useless. (Besides, if the spell fails, does the target wake up or does the spell just bounce off?)
The spell's stealth use is quite niche anyway. Invisibility is strictly superior for stealth purposes, even if the guard does happen to be asleep to begin with.
If we're still concerned about the spell's potential for abuse, rather than requiring a saving throw, I'd recommend tweaking the spell so the victim can still wake up from, e.g., noise, but won't wake up from damage or other physical sensations. That would peg it so squarely into its niche that I doubt anyone would take it unless they wanted to fulfil the purpose in the OP. That said, I honestly think it's fine as is. I can't think of much potential for abuse here that other spells wouldn't accomplish better. The only "abuse" I can think of is itself so situational that I don't think it's worth patching (like drowning or suffocating people in their sleep, which are classic moves anyway).

I would agree that this spell should be in the Illusion school rather than Necromancy. That way Arcane Trickster rogues, who are much more likely to get use out of this spell's stealth aspect than wizards or clerics, can learn it. (Either that, or don't put it on any spell lists and just make it a racial thing for whichever vampiric race you want to pick it up. If you're really concerned about balance, which I'm not, that should be an easy fix.)

You have some solid points, so let me explain a few things that I thought as I commented on it
-It's a first level spell. Yes it's situational, but it very, very powerful in that situation. So, I thought to compare it against all other control 1st levels spells. Sleep is limited by the amount of HP it can affect and only lasts a minute. Tasha's has a save every round. Charm has a save at the beginning. Entangle allows for a save every round. The only thing without a save is sleep and that is already considered one of the most powerful spells in the game at level 1. If you want to make it a 2nd or 3rd level spell, I will buy into the no save.

-I would give the person a save against it. If its a necromancy spell it's a con save, it's it's illusion and int save. However, I wouldn't make someone immediately wake up on a successful save. My head canon shows them as still asleep, but in a normal way, So, you can still function or possibly cast again.



Invisibility is strictly better for stealth purposes, as is pass without a trace. However, both of those spells are 2nd level and don't inherently make you unnoticeable. You need to still be stealthy and you need to make an opposed check against the opponents perception to make sure they don't know you are there.

[Yddisac]

snip

Fair enough. We're evidently going to have to agree to disagree, but you do make several good points. You're right that a lot of the spells that obsolete this are 2nd level. Actually, the only reason I'm really replying to this is that I apparently forgot to put one of my biggest objections to having a saving throw in the first post. whoops ^^;

One more gameplay note: Sleep does only last a minute, but its effect is far better than this. Entangle's effect is much, much more useful than this. Keeping a single target asleep for an hour just... isn't useful. In the extremely unlikely event this scenario came up to a player, I'd have no issue with them trivializing it. If the mission is to sneak into a workshop kept by a single sleeping person and take some stuff, and the player has this spell ready to keep the asleep for an hour no save, well... why not? The effect isn't strong enough to merit the target making a saving throw from where I sit. It's just making sure that a target that was already asleep to begin with will stay asleep — at best, auto-passing a few Stealth checks. Compared to... well, any spell that's possible to cast in combat, that's nothing.

I suppose another comparison would be to enthrall, a second-level spell that has no combat purpose and does require a saving throw. But enthrall is all but useless, and I think we want this spell to avoid its fate.

(Actually, mentioning sleep brings up another way of balancing the spell that I find much more compelling than a saving throw: reducing the duration. A vampire doesn't need an hour to bite its victim; a minute would do. Again, I don't think that balancing is necessary per se, but if OP disagrees, I think reducing the duration is the most compelling way to keep it in line.)

The thing I forgot to say: From a narrative perspective, it doesn't make sense that a sleeping target can make a saving throw of any kind. A saving throw is a conscious effort on the part of a creature, "an attempt to resist a spell... or a similar threat" (PHB 179). Be it a Con or an Int save, I don't see how a sleeping target could brace themselves against the effect the way they would against a cone of cold, or mentally work through it the way they would a maze or phantasmal force spell.
(To anticipate an objection, I suppose it's possible to call a Con save a matter of passive resistance, since sleeping creatures can still make Con saving throws against, e.g., poison. But if this spell required a Con save, it'd be completely useless even for its niche — many, many creatures have great Con saves.)

All of that said, if OP does want to put a saving throw on this, I'd follow up on what igordragonian said and make it an Int save. At least Int is the least-used saving throw, and not many creatures have good Int saves. The spell is already on the weaker side, so if it has to have a save at all, it had better be one its targets are likely to fail. I'd also look at reducing the spell's duration or narrowing its focus, though.

[Amnoriath]

The reason why I suggest a save is because they can't wake up, period, and attacking only ends the spell. While it is true it only works during sleep a level 1 full arcane caster can pull of the combo. As such an hour to do whatever you want with them is a lot of time(aside from what was mentioned, frame people into assassinating the king,...) It may not have ready battle usage, but what it can do for out of combat simply can ruin people or even nations.

[Yddisac]

I admit I'm not seeing the nation-ruining capabilities of keeping one person asleep for an hour — does the king only have one guard? — but fair enough, I'll grant your point. That said, assuming such potential for abuse exists, I think shortening the duration to a minute would solve the problem more effectively than adding a save. Adding a save forces Lady Macbeth to isolate a not-very-smart (or not-very-hardy) guard to frame for the king's murder and adds an element of risk to her plot, but shortening the duration makes the spell an impractical choice for Lady Macbeth in general while still giving Carmilla plenty of time to feast on Laura. (...those allusions got a bit twisted ^^;) Since first-level spells that can ruin nations are usually the provenance of silent image, eliminating the potential for abuse entirely seems the safer route to me than complicating that abuse to an extent. Though it's entirely reasonable to disagree with me there.

[Amnoriath]

I admit I'm not seeing the nation-ruining capabilities of keeping one person asleep for an hour — does the king only have one guard? — but fair enough, I'll grant your point. That said, assuming such potential for abuse exists, I think shortening the duration to a minute would solve the problem more effectively than adding a save. Adding a save forces Lady Macbeth to isolate a not-very-smart (or not-very-hardy) guard to frame for the king's murder and adds an element of risk to her plot, but shortening the duration makes the spell an impractical choice for Lady Macbeth in general while still giving Carmilla plenty of time to feast on Laura. (...those allusions got a bit twisted ^^;) Since first-level spells that can ruin nations are usually the provenance of silent image, eliminating the potential for abuse entirely seems the safer route to me than complicating that abuse to an extent. Though it's entirely reasonable to disagree with me there.

I can agree that shortening the duration does help there a lot. Though I will have to disagree with Silent Image having as nearly as easy of time. In order to pull it off you would at least need two people, but first you need to hide the guard(assuming the same situation). Second, you transpose the image over your martial accomplice to hide them in plain sight, but any physical interaction with them uncovers the illusion. Additionally people who see can them can make an Investigation check against the spell DC.

[nickl_2000]

Fair enough. We're evidently going to have to agree to disagree, but you do make several good points. You're right that a lot of the spells that obsolete this are 2nd level. Actually, the only reason I'm really replying to this is that I apparently forgot to put one of my biggest objections to having a saving throw in the first post. whoops ^^;
SNIP



I've got nothing else to add, but I did want to say that I appreciate the frank and respectful discussion/disagreement that has happened on this thread.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I think this spell is perfect as-is and I will be adding it to a spellbook in my Curse of Strahd campaign immediately.

What spell lists did you think to add this to? Wizard only? Wizard, Warlock? Sorcerer? Bard?