Alternative origins for the yugoloths

[AureusFulgens]

Good day, everyone!

So I am aware of the standard origin of the yugoloth race in fifth edition (failed experiment by Asmodeus and a bunch of hags), and of the role that they fill in the Great Wheel cosmology (neutral evil fiends, contrasting with the lawful evil devils and the chaotic evil demons). But I am currently working in a variant on the fourth edition cosmology, where devils are evil astral beings and demons are evil elementals, and I'm trying to figure out where yugoloths fit in. Because I really enjoy yugoloths, just not sure what to do with them.

This is your blanket invitation to spitball ideas. Hit me with whatever you think of.

EDIT: For context, the cosmology I've put together is explained below as I explained it in another thread, but little about it is sacrosanct, and feel free to think of ideas in terms of a different world system.


The world is essentially a Great Axis deal: a vast disk of material worlds, sandwiched in between infinite Astral and Elemental Seas (representing unrealized thought and unformed matter, respectively).
The disk has its center at Mechanus, a Pole of perfect order. Its edge is the Feywild, a place where wild magic enters the universe and runs rampant.
In between are the material worlds. There used to be just one, but it was partitioned into many (on the order of millions) in order to prevent any single divine war from ravaging creation.
Above is the Astral Sea. The nearer astral domains are each tethered to a material world, and manifest in that world as suns (or moons, if they are sufficiently damaged). For example, my main material world has one sun and five moons. The further ones float free.
Astral beings are responsible for partitioning the Prime. Each individual world's original gods were celestials, but not all of them are still around - in the world I do most of my work in, five of the six gods were killed, and there have been two other pantheons since (of fey and humans).
Devils are any celestials who turn to evil - most of them, as it happens. A particularly interesting race of them rule the world of Tenebrous under the leadership of that world's single, diabolic god, Luminous, and their astral domain is the Nine Hells (which I've restructured significantly).
Beneath is the Elemental Sea. If you go deep enough, it becomes a Chaos, but in the vicinity of a given material world, the presence of basic concepts about the nature of matter organizes it into what we would recognize as elemental planes - and the pattern is different for each material world (I've included a quip in my notes that one world might have 118 elemental planes; Redcloak would approve).
At the bottom of the Elemental Sea is the Abyss. I recently came up with the fun bit of lore that the Abyss was originally the plane where the material world's creators (the archons) lived. Most of the archons died in a war with their rebellious servants, the dragons, and the survivors were embittered and corrupted, becoming the destructive demons, who now seek to avenge themselves on the rest of creation.
The dead are released into the Astral Sea. From there, depending on the world, they might spend time in an astral domain, but nearly all eventually move on, proceeding further upward to... somewhere. (Like you, I'm reticent about the final fate of the dead.)
I determined that all living creatures have free will, but that exercising it does change one's type. A gold dragon who goes evil would not be gold anymore, but rather a color reflecting its new outlook; angels and devils are simply good and evil versions of the same creatures, one laboring under a curse for being evil; and demons are evil elementals, with frequent corruption of other elementals creating more demons and rare demons shifting back.

[hamishspence]

If you're taking some 4e ideas, you could take more 4e ideas - and have yugoloths be just demons with a few quirks.

One of them, is their less chaotic and more mercenary nature. In 4e, ice devils used to be yugoloths, but they joined up with the devils.

[vicente408]

You have devils with Astral origins, demons with Elemental origins, so perhaps yugoloths should originate among the material planes. Perhaps they are the corrupted souls of mortals who sought both power and an escape from the inevitability of death by transcending into a celestial state, only to fall short and become beings that, while undying, had no true place within the cosmic order. As such, they wander and carve out territory where they can, in the Astral, Material, and Elemental realms, hiring themselves out to the highest bidders to supply their personal ambitions.

[Naanomi]

No Ethereal in that Cosmology... they could always be a temporal threat; ancient precursor Evils from the distant past, or evolved fiends from the future

But I like the idea of tying them to the Prime... the motivations of Yugoloth tend to greed and treachery, somehow mortal failings... perhaps Yugoloth are what mortal souls become when they are too corrupt to move on after death, but not tied to Demons or Devils? Or the original Yugoloth were mortals who attempted to harness the power of the fiends only to become a new kind of fiend themselves

[Mr_Fixler]

If the Demons are of the elemental planes, the building blocks or set dressing if you will. And the Devils are from the Astral, the backstage space between spaces. Then maybe the Yugoloths are the curtain, the masters of doorways. With one foot in each realm they play the middle and keep things "just so" to suit their own goals. They don't have a home realm but are the gateway and the key.

Also that is a cool cosmology. Designing those is hard, but yours makes sense.

[Millstone85]

There is a material world whose astral domains were taken over by devils while its elemental domains were overrun by demons. Its human populations have long been replaced by tieflings and abyssal genasi. Other humanoids and beasts have been similarly tainted.

Abyssal genasi were a thing in 4e at one point , specifically Dragon#380. They came in four flavors:
* firesoul cindersoul genasi, still mostly themed around fire.
* stormsoul plaguesoul genasi, themed around airborne poison.
* watersoul causticsoul genasi, still breathing underwater but loving acid.
* earthsoul voidsoul genasi, with psychic effects and immateriality tricks.

But while most creatures of this world bear either a diabolic or demonic taint, some have both. They are collectively known as the yugoloths, though they are descended from a variety of humanoids and beasts.

This world could in fact be Tenebrous, with devils having the most power over it.

[AureusFulgens]

If you're taking some 4e ideas, you could take more 4e ideas - and have yugoloths be just demons with a few quirks.

One of them, is their less chaotic and more mercenary nature. In 4e, ice devils used to be yugoloths, but they joined up with the devils.

I think that was one of the things I was less fond of from the 4e model. Though I can't quite put a finger on why. Yugoloths just don't seem all that demonic - they're more like less lawful devils, if anything. Not into the whole destroy the universe thing like demons are.

I like that they had this little quirk of ice devils having switched sides, though.


You have devils with Astral origins, demons with Elemental origins, so perhaps yugoloths should originate among the material planes. Perhaps they are the corrupted souls of mortals who sought both power and an escape from the inevitability of death by transcending into a celestial state, only to fall short and become beings that, while undying, had no true place within the cosmic order. As such, they wander and carve out territory where they can, in the Astral, Material, and Elemental realms, hiring themselves out to the highest bidders to supply their personal ambitions.

There's a neat symmetry to that. Three fiendish races, with origins in the three divisions of the cosmos. I'd have to hammer out the details, but it's a good lead.


No Ethereal in that Cosmology... they could always be a temporal threat; ancient precursor Evils from the distant past, or evolved fiends from the future

But I like the idea of tying them to the Prime... the motivations of Yugoloth tend to greed and treachery, somehow mortal failings... perhaps Yugoloth are what mortal souls become when they are too corrupt to move on after death, but not tied to Demons or Devils? Or the original Yugoloth were mortals who attempted to harness the power of the fiends only to become a new kind of fiend themselves

Good thoughts. There's an interesting thread from a few months back about the Shadowfell where somebody floated the idea of the planes being arranged temporally rather than spacially:

Elemental Chaos (primordial soup) --> Feywild (early, vibrant world) --> Material Plane --> Shadowfell (aging, decayed world) --> Astral Sea (afterlife - a world of thought when matter has faded)

That's something I've been meaning to run with in a cosmology at some point, even though it didn't start out as my idea.


If the Demons are of the elemental planes, the building blocks or set dressing if you will. And the Devils are from the Astral, the backstage space between spaces. Then maybe the Yugoloths are the curtain, the masters of doorways. With one foot in each realm they play the middle and keep things "just so" to suit their own goals. They don't have a home realm but are the gateway and the key.

Also that is a cool cosmology. Designing those is hard, but yours makes sense.

I'm glad you like it! And the theater metaphor is interesting. If you will, demons/archons are the techies, and devils/angels are the directors, and mortals are the actors, so... yugoloths are the critics? The audience? The producers? I could work with that.


There is a material world whose astral domains were taken over by devils while its elemental domains were overrun by demons. Its human populations have long been replaced by tieflings and abyssal genasi. Other humanoids and beasts have been similarly tainted.

Abyssal genasi were a thing in 4e at one point , specifically Dragon#380. They came in four flavors:
* firesoul cindersoul genasi, still mostly themed around fire.
* stormsoul plaguesoul genasi, themed around airborne poison.
* watersoul causticsoul genasi, still breathing underwater but loving acid.
* earthsoul voidsoul genasi, with psychic effects and immateriality tricks.

But while most creatures of this world bear either a diabolic or demonic taint, some have both. They are collectively known as the yugoloths, though they are descended from a variety of humanoids and beasts.

This world could in fact be Tenebrous, with devils having the most power over it.

It probably isn't Tenebrous. I already know a fair amount about that one, specifically that it's the goblin homeworld (I realized that goblins didn't really fit in my main Material World, so I left them out for a while until I realized "oh of course they're alien invaders..." It was one of my more comical worldbuilding decisions, when you say it that way.) But I could see that happening on some world. The demons and devils wind up clashing directly and the resulting war wipes out material life, except for those that managed to survive as yugoloths. A neat concept.



Overall, some good ideas.

[Naanomi]

Since they are sort of ‘half-way’ between demons and devils; a merger of the two is possible... sounds like something a mortal might try, a scientifically minded devil... or something more strange. If you are ok with the temporal aspect, it could be a ‘natural’ merger of the two fiend races from the distant future, when all mortal races have died and only the dwindling dregs of the immortal races remain? Returned to the past to bring ‘balance’ to the immortal races, to prevent the extermination of the mortals (and steer history to their own advantage, of course)