Githyanki Shadow Pouncer

[Postmodernist]

Got a game starting at level 12, but with the allowed LA buyoff, my character will start at 10. I'm looking to build a Shadowpouncer using ToB, and possibly get into Master of Nine afterwards, though that isn't mandatory. Two flaws are allowed, and there's fractional advancement. Githyanki dimension door ability should cover the teleport prerequisite. Plus, flavor and psionics for Diamond Mind type stuff, and Githcraft stuff to bump Concentration checks.

Any build suggestions? I'm trying avoid the pain of Monk levels, but I worry that Cobra Strike Monk might be mandatory. Could a late-taken Swordsage level with Assassin's Stance cover the sneak attack pre-req for Telflammar Shadowlord? Does Mo9 actually add anything of value to the build, other than cool-factor? Figuring some mix of Warblade/Swordsage/TSL/M9?

[Ramza00]

My recommendation is to realize that you can get teleport effects from multiple sources, including magic items and wands / dorjes and these too can trigger shadow pounce and they can be quite cheap. Combine with wand chambers in your magic weapon. It is also not clear if you trigger shadow pounce when you are a willing teleport target to a party member's / familiars teleport.

ECL 1: Dimension Hop psionic power (Swift Action, 10 feet movement that can be augmented for more, Complete Psionic)
ECL 1: Benign Transposition spell (Standard Action, switch places of any two willing allies, Spell Compendium)
ECL 1: Wizard 1 (Give up Familiar for Immediate Action 10 ft teleport, Player's Handbook II).
ECL 1: Protective Imposition spell (Cleric 1/Paladin 1, trade places with ally as a Swift action, Forge of War pg 115), note this spell is touch range but is also a swift action.
ECL 3: Dimension Hop spell. (Sorcerer/Wizard/Duskblade 2, Standard Action to teleport one target a short distance. You're losing an action, but they're gaining free movement. PHBII.
ECL 3: Dimension Leap Spell from Magic of Eberron
ECL 3ish: Anklet of Translocation (Swift Action 10 ft movement, 2/day, Magic Item Compendium)
ECL 5: Flicker mystery (move 5' per mystery-user level as an immediate action. Standard Action to cast, lasts rounds/level. Tome of Magic)

Shadow Cloak from Drow of the Underdark gives 3 a day immediate action teleport for 5,500 gp.

Stand technically qualifies and is a 1st level spell

Dimension Step is a 3rd level spell that at CL5 teleports 1 person, CL 6 teleports 2 people, CL 9 teleports 3 people and so on

Anklet of Translocation (MIC). 1400GP, feet slot. Range 10', swift action activation. Works twice per day (buy a few!). Requires line of sight and line of effect. Requires line of sight and line of effect.
Benign Transposition is a 1st level spell but it needs an ally, familiar, summon monster, etc. A Wand of Benign Transposition (SpC). 750GP, held. Standard action, switch the locations of two willing creatures.
Boots of Swift Passage (MIC). 5000GP, feet slot. Range 20'. Move action activation. Works five timesper day. Requires line of sight and line of effect.
Shadow Cloak (DotU). 5500GP, shoulders slot. Teleport 10' as an immediate action three times per day, along with (good) secondary benefits. Requires line of sight, but apparently not line of effect. Note this requires you to be attacked and during this attack only then can you immediate action teleport.
Dimension Stride Boots (MIC). 2000GP, feet slot. Range 20' to 60' depending on charges spent, 5 charges per day. Standard action activation. Requires line of sight and line of effect.
Bolt Shirt (MIC). 5000GP, torso slot. Range 60'. Move action activation. Works once per day. Explicitly useless for escaping undetected. Requires line of sight and line of effect.
Boots of Big Stepping (MIC). 6000GP, feet slot. Range 60, standard action activation. Works three times per day. Teleports as Greater Teleport.
Novice Shadow Hands of Shadow Jaunt (ToB). 3000GP, hands slot. Range 50', standard action activation. No daily limitation, but effectively once per encounter unless you have a recovery method. Requires line of sight and line of effect.

But yeah a level 1 Dip into Wizard for Abrupt Jaunt (Int Mod times per day), able to use wizard wands, 1 feat (Martial Wizard, lose scribe scroll but can take a bonus fighter feat), Focused Conjuration Specialist which gives you 3 conjuration spells slot per day (Benign Transposition)+1 more as a bonus spell if you have an Int of 12.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "allowed LA buyoff". If your DM is allowing LA buyoff, then why are you starting at character level 10? Or do you mean, my DM is allowing me to play a race with LA +2, so 10 character levels + 2 LA = ECL 12.

Anyway... race is Githyanki, so that sorta rules out Crinti Shadow Marauder. Telflammar Shadowlord has a regional requirement... so you'll want to make sure the DM is either handwaving it or allowing you to take the 2 ranks in Knowledge: Local (Thesk), which is a 3.0 rule that was removed in the 3.5 PGtF.

Hmm... soonest we can get in via skill ranks is level 8, so you can't actually get shadow pounce until level 11.

1) Swordsage 1. Feat: Desert Wind Dodge.
2) Swordsage 2.
3) Swordsage 3. Feat: Mobility. Shadow Stride.
4) Swordsage 4.
5) Fighter 1. Bonus: Spring Attack.
6) Fighter 2. Feat: Adaptive Style. Bonus: Blind-Fight.
7) Swordsage 5. Assassin Stance (2d6 sneak attack).
8) Telflammar Shadowlord 1.
9) Telflammar Shadowlord 2. {Open}
10) Telflammar Shadowlord 3.

(You could replace the Fighter 2 with Psychic Warrior 2 if you prefer.)

There is an unarmed variation of the Swordsage, but the wording on it is vague... if you go by strict RAW, it doesn't actually give you Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat, just the unarmed damage of a monk. However, most people who play with the Unarmed Swordsage give them IUS along with the unarmed damage progression.

Warblade entry is problematic... If you dip Swordsage 1 at level 9 (IL = 5.0), then that means you only just barely get into Telfammar Shadowlord at ECL 10, and Shadow Pounce is still 3 levels away. There's also the issue of whether or not you can take a higher-level stance with just the one-level dip, as the book says your first stance has to be a 1st-level stance. Many DMs will handwave this, however, as you are not starting play as a Swordsage.

If you start with Warblade 5/Fighter 1/Swordsage 2, you avoid the 1st level stance problem and getting into Telflammar Shadowlord at level 9 instead of 8:

1) Warblade 1. Feat: Desert Wind Dodge.
2) Warblade 2.
3) Warblade 3. Feat: Mobility.
4) Warblade 4.
5) Warblade 5. Bonus: Blind-Fight.
6) Fighter 1. Feat: Adaptive Style. Bonus: Spring Attack.
7) Swordsage 1.
8) Swordsage 2. Assassin Stance (2d6 sneak attack).
9) Telflammar Shadowlord 1. Feat: {Open}
10) Telflammar Shadowlord 2.


So, after that, you want to go into Master of Nine... if Unarmed Swordsage is allowed, then presumably you've got IUS and all you're missing is Improved Initiative, which you can take at level 9. Normally, I'm not sure I'd advice going into Master of Nine, as it's a bit of a trap: too many feat taxes to get in, so you're probably better off going straight Swordsage or Warblade. However, you had to take a couple of those feats just to get into Telflammar Shadowlord, so... in for a penny, in for a pound, might as well? So long as you're grabbing the Shadow Pounce Trifecta (Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink), the rest of Master of Nine is mostly gravy on top of your primary combo.

[flappeercraft]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "allowed LA buyoff". If your DM is allowing LA buyoff, then why are you starting at character level 10? Or do you mean, my DM is allowing me to play a race with LA +2, so 10 character levels + 2 LA = ECL 12.

-Snip-

LA buyoff costs XP so he is starting at a lower XP meaning he is playing at level 10 instead of 12 due to those costs.

Also what Darrin is saying is probably what you should go for but if dragon magazine is allowed I would say one thing should be changed. Change the fighter levels for Martial Monk levels, the class is from, Dragon Magazine 310

[Ramza00]

Forgot to mention use Dimension Hop plus a Spell Storing Weapon and a dagger plus two weapon fighting (remember Gloves of the Balanced Hand gives TWF or ITWF as a magic item.) A spell storing dagger costs a little more than 8,000 GP if you craft it, but now you can use one of your low bab attacks to activate another teleport chain. This works for the 2nd level Dimension Hop Spell is a touch ranged spell with a target, so you cut yourself with your own dagger in order to teleport and attack again from a different angle.

[flappeercraft]

After some brief research, you might want to get the Dimension Jumper spell in some way be it as a minor schema and UMD or another way. Basically it's a swift action casting time and for the duration you may use a move action to teleport once per round. Mix this with Abrupt Jaunt or something similar and you get 2 full attacks per round and a standard action.

[Postmodernist]

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely understand that this character is more about style than impact, but I'm trying to vary my playstyle a little and not just throw down for casters.

flappeercraft is correct on the LA buyoff comment. Psychic warrior is an interesting option, since it fits in a little more with the thematic vibe of the character. With the 2 flaws, does that accelerate entry at all?

[Ramza00]

After some brief research, you might want to get the Dimension Jumper spell in some way be it as a minor schema and UMD or another way. Basically it's a swift action casting time and for the duration you may use a move action to teleport once per round. Mix this with Abrupt Jaunt or something similar and you get 2 full attacks per round and a standard action.

1) Dimension Jumper is awesome for a Shadow Pouncer Build (but there are buts coming.)
2) Minor Schema are awesome for often they are underpriced compared to other ways of getting more spells per day. For example a 5th level Minor Schema is 18,000 GP while a 5th level Pearl of Power is 25,000 GP. There are some trade offs A) Minor Schema casts as items and thus has lower save dcs and lower caster level that is minimum to cast the spell so caster level 9 for a 5th level Minor Schema while a pearl of power requires you to prepare the spell before hand using a spell slot and thus one of your versatility slots per day and you just replicate it for an additional time. Minor Schemas also work well if you have UMD or you are a multiclass and you are not at that level of casting yet.

But

For a shadowpounce build, while Dimension Jumper is awesome, and Minor Schemas are awesome, they do not mix as well as other cheaper options that already exist, and the amount of value add is not much higher.

Compare Boots of Swift Passage and Dimension Jumper.

Dimension Jumper (Schema) is a Swift Action to cast and after you cast it for 9 rounds (caster level 9) you can make a move action and do a 30ft teleport. This teleport requires line of sight but I do not see a line of effect entry in the spell.
Boots of Swift Passage is a Move Action to use and it instantly teleports you up to 20ft. This can be done 5 times per day. The teleport requires both lines of sight and lines of effect to activate. Like most of the items in MIC (but the are some exceptions) there is no line in the item entry saying you must wear the boots for 24 hours to get its effect, and thus you can swap out one pair of boots after you use the 5 times per day for a 2nd pair of boots.

Schema of Dimension Jumper costs 18,000 GP to buy. Boots of Swift Passage costs 5,000 GP to buy.

So the 4 advantages of Dimension Jumper is

30 ft range instead of 20 ft range.
Does not require line of effect.
If the combat is longer than 5 rounds you get 4 more rounds of teleport as a move action.
Does not require an item slot.



Advantages of Boots of Swift Passage compared to Dimension Jumper

Do not need to use a Swift Action to activate the Boots 9 round move action teleport. You just teleport as needed.
Cost is 5,000 GP for those 5 move action teleports, that is 1,000 GP per move action teleport, and you can get 15 teleports for 15,000 GP contrast with Dimension Jumper for 18,000 GP and with this 18k you only get 1 encounter with a max of 9 teleports for that 1 encounter.


To me the boots just seems like such a better value, saving on actions and getting more uses per day is worth the cost of lower teleport range and also require line of effect. (Remember you can use other items / teleport effects to teleport if you need to break line of effect or if you need a little more range with 20ft vs 30ft.)

Dimension Jumper shines if you are playing a Gestalt Character and on one side you have a pure wizard / arcane class so you can use

Abrupt Jaunt+Shadow Cloak as your Swift / Immediate Actions
Dimension Jumper as your Move Actions (does require 1 Swift Action to activate)
Other Teleport Spells such as Dimension Hop, Dimension Step, Benign Transpoition, Longer Range Teleport Spells as your standard actions.



But for the level of plays the OP is playing and him wanting to use less spells more everything else I think Books of Swift Passage makes more sense. That said I forgot about Dimension Jumper and you are correct :smallwink: :smallcool: it is an awesome spell for many a shadow pounce builds but maybe not the best for this one (or much better at higher levels of play where you have more wealth to spin.)

[flappeercraft]

1) Dimension Jumper is awesome for a Shadow Pouncer Build (but there are buts coming.)
2) Minor Schema are awesome for often they are underpriced compared to other ways of getting more spells per day. For example a 5th level Minor Schema is 18,000 GP while a 5th level Pearl of Power is 25,000 GP. There are some trade offs A) Minor Schema casts as items and thus has lower save dcs and lower caster level that is minimum to cast the spell so caster level 9 for a 5th level Minor Schema while a pearl of power requires you to prepare the spell before hand using a spell slot and thus one of your versatility slots per day and you just replicate it for an additional time. Minor Schemas also work well if you have UMD or you are a multiclass and you are not at that level of casting yet.

But

For a shadowpounce build, while Dimension Jumper is awesome, and Minor Schemas are awesome, they do not mix as well as other cheaper options that already exist, and the amount of value add is not much higher.

Compare Boots of Swift Passage and Dimension Jumper.

Dimension Jumper (Schema) is a Swift Action to cast and after you cast it for 9 rounds (caster level 9) you can make a move action and do a 30ft teleport. This teleport requires line of sight but I do not see a line of effect entry in the spell.
Boots of Swift Passage is a Move Action to use and it instantly teleports you up to 20ft. This can be done 5 times per day. The teleport requires both lines of sight and lines of effect to activate. Like most of the items in MIC (but the are some exceptions) there is no line in the item entry saying you must wear the boots for 24 hours to get its effect, and thus you can swap out one pair of boots after you use the 5 times per day for a 2nd pair of boots.

Schema of Dimension Jumper costs 18,000 GP to buy. Boots of Swift Passage costs 5,000 GP to buy.

So the 4 advantages of Dimension Jumper is

30 ft range instead of 20 ft range.
Does not require line of effect.
If the combat is longer than 5 rounds you get 4 more rounds of teleport as a move action.
Does not require an item slot.



Advantages of Boots of Swift Passage compared to Dimension Jumper

Do not need to use a Swift Action to activate the Boots 9 round move action teleport. You just teleport as needed.
Cost is 5,000 GP for those 5 move action teleports, that is 1,000 GP per move action teleport, and you can get 15 teleports for 15,000 GP contrast with Dimension Jumper for 18,000 GP and with this 18k you only get 1 encounter with a max of 9 teleports for that 1 encounter.


To me the boots just seems like such a better value, saving on actions and getting more uses per day is worth the cost of lower teleport range and also require line of effect. (Remember you can use other items / teleport effects to teleport if you need to break line of effect or if you need a little more range with 20ft vs 30ft.)

Dimension Jumper shines if you are playing a Gestalt Character and on one side you have a pure wizard / arcane class so you can use

Abrupt Jaunt+Shadow Cloak as your Swift / Immediate Actions
Dimension Jumper as your Move Actions (does require 1 Swift Action to activate)
Other Teleport Spells such as Dimension Hop, Dimension Step, Benign Transpoition, Longer Range Teleport Spells as your standard actions.



But for the level of plays the OP is playing and him wanting to use less spells more everything else I think Books of Swift Passage makes more sense. That said I forgot about Dimension Jumper and you are correct :smallwink: :smallcool: it is an awesome spell for many a shadow pounce builds but maybe not the best for this one (or much better at higher levels of play where you have more wealth to spin.)

I agree in general but I would like to point out one benefit for dimension jumper that you missed. You can teleport your familiar with you while you cannot with the Boots of Swift Passage. This actually brings another setup to mind now that I notice it. Use the Minor Schema in conjunction with your familiar and due to Share spells you can have the familiar also bve affected by dimension jumper which nets you 2 jumps per round or a total of 18 jumps total. That makes it 1,000 GP per jump although likely it will only work on one combat. Add on top the Shadow Cloak and that nets you 3 teleportations per round and you still have your standard action for whatever else. The thing is that this is not entirely exclusive of Abrupt Jaunt, after all the Obtain Familiar feat does exist. This also makes Wizard the most optimal dip choice to take as if you have a high Int score you can also fill up all of your first level slots with Benign Transposition and change spotgs with your familiar which will be with you whic nets you a fourth full attack per round.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmm, with two flaws, you might be able to fit in Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt), which lets you teleport 10' + 10' per essentia as a standard action (you'll probably only have 1 or 2 essentia). Downside is that you can't take any actions after teleporting, and the totem chakra bind (which turns the teleport into a move action) can't be unlocked with feats.


Something like totemist 2/psychic warrior 2/swordsage 5/telflammar shadowlord 4 might work, though (bit of wrangling with the IL requirement on Assassin's Stance). With Midnight Dodge as prerequisite for Mo9, you get 3 essentia, for an at-will 40' move-action teleport. With the web ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) to add a mantle, you can get dimension hop on your psywar list, for a 1-pp swift-action 10' teleport. Inconstant location would be better, but it's a 6th-level power. After that, you only need a standard-action teleport that doesn't eat your remaining turn.

[Ramza00]

Use the Minor Schema in conjunction with your familiar and due to Share spells you can have the familiar also bve affected by dimension jumper which nets you 2 jumps per round or a total of 18 jumps total.

I do not follow. Maybe I am missing something? Let me break down how I interpert Share Spells, Dimension Jumper, etc, and you can correct me if I get something wrong.

You cast Dimension Jumper onto yourself, and your familiar gets a free casting onto itself by being within 5 feet

1) You can share your Dimension Jumper Spell with a familiar as a swift action.
2) You and your familiar get the benefit for the caster level (9 or higher) to be able to teleport 30-ft. as a move action.
3) If your familiar moves more than 5-ft. away from you he loses the benefit of Dimension Jumper.
3b) Your familiar can move more than 5-ft. away from you via several methods, a traditional move action but also a 30-ft. teleportation due to Dimension Jumper, regardless as soon as you are more than 5-ft. away it loses the teleportation ability of Dimension Jumper.
4) When you teleport you can take anything you are touching that is an item. In addition you can't take creatures, but you can take your familiar if you are touching your familiar as a creature (like he is an item except he isn't.) Thus when you use your move actions your familiar comes for the ride.
4b) While you can take your familiar with you with your move actions, the opposite is not true for you are not your familiar's familiar you are its master and the text that is the except to the rules of transporting other creatures with Dimension Jumper only applies to familiars.
5) Thus you sharing Dimension Jumper with your familiar does not get you any extra Shadow Jumps. All it does is give your familiar an extra movement ability a form of teleport up to 30-ft. feet instead of walking, flying, swimming, burrowing, etc. It is a one time use thing.


What would work is if you and your familiar were touching and you shared Dimension Jumper. And after you teleport your familiar readies an action to use a wand of benign Transposition so you move only 5-ft away via you and your familiar swapping spaces you then trigger a Shadow Pounce. The thing about this is you really do not need to be touching your familiar and using dimension jumper. Instead your familiar can be flying and using a wand of benign transposition anyway. You are not really gaining much. (This post is long so I will not go into the minor pros and cons.)

Alternatively you can use Share Spells so that instead of Dimension Jumper having a target of You (Personal) it can have a target of Touch (Familiar Only). Now the duration of the spell last for the caster level even if the familiar is not near you. So what you just did is use your swift action and a 5th level spell slot (or schema) to give your familiar a teleport move action instead of fly, burrow, walk, etc.

----

Also it is not clear (aka it is a DM Call) how Abrupt Jaunt works with the Obtained Familiar feat. Of course other follower / cohort / minion feats such as Leadership are still allowed, and these cohorts can use wands of benign transposition to trigger your Shadow Pounce under most definitions of Shadow Pounce. Leadership is generally better than Obtain Familiar but one of the exceptions of this is Leadership does not get Share Spells but the Familiar does (also the shared skill ranks.)

But once again it is a DM's call for it is not clear if other people's magic and effects trigger your Shadow Pounce, it is clear you teleport but does this teleport mean you get a free Shadow Pounce? It is clear that "he teleport-ed" but did " he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor" or did someone else use the ability, spell, or effect and he is merely brought for the ride.

Personally though I feel such conversations are not really productive for it is a Theoretical Discussion and a DM's Call. From a game-play perspective being able to do 3 Shadow-Pounces a round under your own power (Standard, Move, Swift) and sometimes 4 Shadow-Pounces (via using a Spell Storing Weapon with Dimension Hop, or your next's round Immediate Action) is enough attacks per round that anything more than 3 is just theoretical optimization.

Furthermore stuff like White Raven Tactics with a Crusader / Warblade ally, Multi-class, or a Magic Item is a thing. Arguing whether familiar magic or ally magic triggers your shadow pounce is kind of unnecessary rule argument to have with your DM. Instead of arguing the rules he is going to argue this character is super fun or not super fun anymore and I am Rule 0ing it.

[Darrin]

flappeercraft is correct on the LA buyoff comment. Psychic warrior is an interesting option, since it fits in a little more with the thematic vibe of the character. With the 2 flaws, does that accelerate entry at all?

Not really. The sticking point is Telfammar Shadowlord requires 10 ranks in both Hide and Move Silently, so 8th level is the earliest entry. Favored/Primary Contact can get you an extra rank in one of those, but can't get the second. It's a little early for Inspre Greatness/psychic reformation shenanigans.

So, we might be looking at Crinti Shadow Marauder. And although Drow ancestry might be a stretch, there is a narrative loophole: doing a major solid for the Dambrath nobility. Max skill ranks required are 8, so we can get in with Something 5/ CSM 5. How about:

1) Mantled PsyWar 1. Feat: Stealthy. Bonus: Mounted Combat.
2) Mantled PsyWar 2. Mantle: Freedom (dimension hop).
3) Swordsage 1. Feat: Adaptive Style.
4) Swordsage 2. Shadow Jaunt.
5) Swordsage 3.
6) CSM 1. Feat: {Open}.
7) CSM 2.
8) CSM 3.
9) CSM 4. Feat: {Open}.
10) CSM 5. Shadow Pounce.

Replace Swordsage 3 with Dusk blade 1 to get another swift-action teleport (the stand spell). Add Totemist 2 for Blink Shirt, and that's a move action teleport you can use at the end of every turn.

Master of Nine is a little harder to get into, but you can still dip Fighter, Monk, or Cleric for feats. Or finish off with Swordsage.

[Ramza00]

Remember your DM if your DM wants to can waive things that are setting specific if you are not in that setting, or if your DM wants to modify the setting. Settings are meant to be frameworks, but part of D&D ever since its beginning is to be an open framework where the DM creates his own world and you do not have to do the world exactly as Hasbro / WOTC / other owners of D&D say is the suggested way.

So if your DM wants to allow a Githyanki to be a Crinti Shadow Maruader he can. It is recommended the Githyanki does a favor to the Drow, but an alternate thing is the DM can make the PC do a favor to some other organization that will teach the Githyanki how to be a Crinti Shadow Maruader / Jumper of Shadows and so on.

All of these things are suggestions, it is up for your DM and you to come up with something that your DM sees as fun and flexible and okay to be in his adventure. Yet the DM also has a duty to his player to make a fun world even if the world is not how the player wants to play exactly.

I say all of this for Crinti Shadow Maruader is far easier to enter and in some ways is a better entry if you want to go ToB. Shadow Pounce is available at level 10 with CSM, the last level of the 5th level prestige class that you enter in level 6.

Now if your goal is to be a Shadow Pouncer + Master of Nine than Telflammar Shadowlord may work better. You do not get Shadow Pounce till level 11 but TS has 2 of the same required feats as the 5 feat requirement of Master of Nine.

[flappeercraft]

-Snip-
Ah crap, I was following erroneous if A=C and B=C then A=B logic of the familiar being able to pull the master if the master can pull it's familiar with it. Then just ignore that.

[Ramza00]

Ah crap, I was following erroneous if A=C and B=C then A=B logic of the familiar being able to pull the master if the master can pull it's familiar with it. Then just ignore that.

It is okay I used to do Computer Science and later Philosophy and Logic so I am hyper aware of me making this mistake all the time so I have trained a double check habit :smallcool:

You should have seen my middle school and high school math work and how many stupid mistakes I made with signs and forgetting to carry the sign or other silly mistakes. Then again that may be due to dyslexia and how that makes certain things harder :smalleek: