Which one is better fighter?

[lordorinko]

In a 1v1 fight which pure fighter archetype would be victorious. If one beats other like rock paper scissors then which is the most beneficial in a 1v1 fight. race can be anything.

[2D8HP]

Since 5e is fairly balanced, Champion Fighter will win because I can remember their class features, the other sub-classes have more than I may keep track of.

[Potato_Priest]

There's not going to be one answer to that, because factors like the terrain, how far apart the fighters start and how the fighter is built (ranged vs melee, what feats they take, etc) are going to be more important than the fighter's subclass.

If you're wondering which one would win if two otherwise equal fighters stood next to each other and slapped each other with melee weapons repeatedly (a very strange scenario that is unlikely to play to many of the subclasses' actual strengths, and will thus give a somewhat biased answer) the answer is probably going to be the Eldrich Knight or Battlemaster, though it would again depend somewhat on what weapons they were using, what armor they were wearing, what level they were, and all that jazz.

[jas61292]

There are so many variables involved that it is impossible to answer this question. Given the right circumstances, any one of them could be the favorite to win. And of course, as there is luck involved, and in fact being central to one archetype's features, that also prevents us from being at all sure.

All I can say for certain is that it would not be the Purple Dragon Knight. 1v1 is explicitly not their thing. Unless convincing the other person not to fight count for something.

[bid]

In a 1v1 fight which pure fighter archetype would be victorious. If one beats other like rock paper scissors then which is the most beneficial in a 1v1 fight. race can be anything.
Which level?
Once 18 is reached, champion recovers 10 hp per turn. Surviving an extra 2-3 rounds can help.

2-handers vs S&B will have a greater impact, same for spell choices.


At level 3-5, my bet would be on BM. War magic and mobile helps EK later on.

[ImproperJustice]

Depending on how they are built, a high level EK should overhwelm most other fighters in a 1v1 slapfest.

Eldritch Strike + blindness or hold person along with their formidable defenses should see the end of the fight.

Failing that, there is Eldritch Strike + Frostbite to help trigger disadvantage followed by chill touch to them prevent the regen.

At the same level the Champion gains regen the Ek has access to level 4 spells....

Although I will admit I am a fan of the Champion. I think the Champion Archer or Ranged/Melee combo specialist is one of the true kings/queens of the battlefield at the upper levels.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Depending on how they are built, a high level EK should overhwelm most other fighters in a 1v1 slapfest.

Eldritch Strike + blindness or hold person along with their formidable defenses should see the end of the fight.

Failing that, there is Eldritch Strike + Frostbite to help trigger disadvantage followed by chill touch to them prevent the regen.

At the same level the Champion gains regen the Ek has access to level 4 spells....

Although I will admit I am a fan of the Champion. I think the Champion Archer or Ranged/Melee combo specialist is one of the true kings/queens of the battlefield at the upper levels.

Hold Person is the EK's "I win" button. Auto-crits on every hit (as long as he's within 5 feet, which he will be) combined with Action Surge for twice the crits when his foe is paralyzed means 4 critical hits on a helpless target, maybe 6 or 8.

[KillingTime]

Early doors the Champion might sneak it with double criticals.
Any build after 11th and it's got to be the EK.
Shield, Hold Person, War Magic, Frostbite, Booming Blade, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp.
They've just got too much in their toolbox for any other archetype to handle.

[CTurbo]

BM may beat Champion in a slug fest just by spamming Riposte and Parry. EK would win overall.

[Unoriginal]

Assuming all stats are identical, the one who wins is the one who gets two good hits in first. So the one who wins the initiative has an advantage.

The EK can *seem* to have an advantage because of the varied powers of the spells, but that's not strictly true. The spells can fail, and they carry an opportunity cost.

Basically, like all 5e PvP, the answer boils down to "can you do your awesome thing before they can do theirs?"

[TIPOT]

I think samurai would do surprisingly well. Proficiency in will saves helps vs the hold person into death from eldritch knight (especially with indomitable). His shout ability gets him 4-5 attack actions with advantage and a ton of temp hp.

[TheUser]

Lol I love this thread. So many people saying "there are so many factors to consider!"
When in reality the only factor to consider is one of them gets spell slots for wizard spells and the other's don't.

EK obliterates them all in a 1v1 fight.
Shield = +5 AC for 3-4 rounds. So from levels 3-6 regardless of build the EK buys enough time to win buy removing a large % of potential hits.

If you are a ranged fighter you can learn expeditious retreat and kite any other fighter to death...

Level 7 they get level 2 spells which isn't a huge deal for Abjuration/Evocation but at level 8 you can learn Blur which imposes Disadvantage on all incoming attacks....

Level 10 they have war magic; disadvantage on saves if they hit....so they swap in Hold Person and ravage duels with Action Surge auto crit rounds....

Level 13 unlocks 3rd level spells like Haste, Blink (50% chance that your enemy just doesn't get to retalliate...), Slow (enemy fighter gets 1 attack per turn, half movement and no reactions...), Fly, Fear (they drop their weapon and dash away from it and only get a save when they break Line of Sight....)


"Oh wow the champion gets 10 hp/round below half HP at level 18 guys!"

EK get stoneskin to take half damage...
Or Greater Invis to make all attacks at advantage and take all at disadvantage...no save.

"Too many factors you guys..."

It's so cut and dry EK that I now have a good idea who's opinions I should probably ignore in the future.

[Vessyra]

Well, there are a lot of factors to consider. For instance, what's the likelihood of the hold person succeeding? Who will win initiative? How close does the arcane archer start to it's opponents? What level are we doing?

The eldritch knight's shield spell is pretty good, but the eldritch knight needs a free hand to cast it.

Personally, I feel that the samurai would win against an eldritch knight (wisdom save proficiency vs hold person, fighting spirit vs shield) but against, various factors and sheer luck can change things

[Unoriginal]

Lol I love this thread. So many people saying "there are so many factors to consider!"
When in reality the only factor to consider is one of them gets spell slots for wizard spells and the other's don't.

No. Caster supremacy is not a thing in 5e. You're two editions too late.



EK obliterates them all in a 1v1 fight.

No.



Shield = +5 AC for 3-4 rounds. So from levels 3-6 regardless of build the EK buys enough time to win buy removing a large % of potential hits.

No.

Shield is good, but it's not going to "buy enough time to win" regardless of all other factors.



If you are a ranged fighter you can learn expeditious retreat and kite any other fighter to death...

Or the other fighter just uses ranged weapons too.

Or turtle up until the EK runs out of options.



Level 7 they get level 2 spells which isn't a huge deal for Abjuration/Evocation but at level 8 you can learn Blur which imposes Disadvantage on all incoming attacks....

Level 10 they have war magic; disadvantage on saves if they hit....so they swap in Hold Person and ravage duels with Action Surge auto crit rounds....

Level 13 unlocks 3rd level spells like Haste, Blink (50% chance that your enemy just doesn't get to retalliate...), Slow (enemy fighter gets 1 attack per turn, half movement and no reactions...), Fly, Fear (they drop their weapon and dash away from it and only get a save when they break Line of Sight....)


"Oh wow the champion gets 10 hp/round below half HP at level 18 guys!"

EK get stoneskin to take half damage...
Or Greater Invis to make all attacks at advantage and take all at disadvantage...no save.

"Too many factors you guys..."

"The EK can casts all those spells at no opportunity cost, because I said so. Also they constantly have the right spell to counter your move even when those spells are mutually exclusive, because they learned magic from the Nameless King"




I now have a good idea who's opinions I should probably ignore in the future.

Yeah, yours.

[ImproperJustice]

Lol I love this thread. So many people saying "there are so many factors to consider!"
When in reality the only factor to consider is one of them gets spell slots for wizard spells and the other's don't.

EK obliterates them all in a 1v1 fight.
Shield = +5 AC for 3-4 rounds. So from levels 3-6 regardless of build the EK buys enough time to win buy removing a large % of potential hits.

If you are a ranged fighter you can learn expeditious retreat and kite any other fighter to death...

Level 7 they get level 2 spells which isn't a huge deal for Abjuration/Evocation but at level 8 you can learn Blur which imposes Disadvantage on all incoming attacks....

Level 10 they have war magic; disadvantage on saves if they hit....so they swap in Hold Person and ravage duels with Action Surge auto crit rounds....

Level 13 unlocks 3rd level spells like Haste, Blink (50% chance that your enemy just doesn't get to retalliate...), Slow (enemy fighter gets 1 attack per turn, half movement and no reactions...), Fly, Fear (they drop their weapon and dash away from it and only get a save when they break Line of Sight....)


"Oh wow the champion gets 10 hp/round below half HP at level 18 guys!"

EK get stoneskin to take half damage...
Or Greater Invis to make all attacks at advantage and take all at disadvantage...no save.

"Too many factors you guys..."

It's so cut and dry EK that I now have a good idea who's opinions I should probably ignore in the future.

Lemee see.....*Rolls save vs. Smugnesss.....

Sucess!!!!

I do think EK has a lot of advantages, but you really shouldn’t be so rude and dismissive.

A High level Champion with 3-4 attacks a round at 18-20 crit rate really won’t be bothered by a high AC unless he is at disadvantage. If he has resilient Wisdom he may have a shot at surviving the hold person effects, especially if he is a Gnome.
What if the Champion has Sentinel and Mage Slayer?

The high level Samurai is a contender in this duel as well, especially an Elven one specced out right, could be a threat. There are a lot of factors to consider, so maybe try not to be so quick to be so dismissive of an entire community of people who may have as much (or more) experience at playing tabletop games as you.

[Belier]

Eldritch knight with mobile feat cast heat metal and then run for all day casting spells.

[lordorinko]

well i didn't expect this thread to be this good of a discussion :D i asked the question since i always liked to optimize characters to achieve their capability i even prepared a ton of excel sheet for comparisons and archetypes have always been a question for since they provide a lot. Let us say that they can all get 1 feat at the cost of an ability score imp. ofc. they have the access to all armor, shield and weapons (except magical and +1 etc. ) then who would be victorious in a 1v1 arena?

[mephnick]

Everyone loses because 1v1 fights are boring as hell in a system designed around tactical XvX party fights.

[TheUser]

{Scrubbed}

[jas61292]

{Scrubbed}

You do know that an eldritch knight only gets four non-evocation/abjuration spells ever. And only two at the most common levels of play. Cause you know, in your initial analysis alone you mentioned 8 different such spells by level 13, which is not only at the high end of common play, but is also a point in which you still only have 2 such spells.

If your point is that, given a fighter's character sheet, you can build a eldritch knight to perfectly counter them, then sure. That's probably true. But that has nothing to do with this situation, and is just as true in reverse. Give me your exact build and I'll make a different kind of fighter that destroys it.

But if you want to break the rules and be an omni eldritch knight who knows any and every spell he might need, then more power to you.

[TheUser]

You do know that an eldritch knight only gets four non-evocation/abjuration spells ever. And only two at the most common levels of play. Cause you know, in your initial analysis alone you mentioned 8 different such spells by level 13, which is not only at the high end of common play, but is also a point in which you still only have 2 such spells.

If your point is that, given a fighter's character sheet, you can build a eldritch knight to perfectly counter them, then sure. That's probably true. But that has nothing to do with this situation, and is just as true in reverse. Give me your exact build and I'll make a different kind of fighter that destroys it.

But if you want to break the rules and be an omni eldritch knight who knows any and every spell he might need, then more power to you.

I'm trying to say that there are so many different wizard spells that an EK is very likely to have 1 of many which would trivialize a duel.

If an EK has -any- one of of those spells they will probably win.

[strangebloke]

To all the idiots who think saving throws vs EK are a factor what's the save for Blur, Haste or Shield?

Haste isn't worth casting here.

With the number of attacks flying around, concentration spells will be lost, and losing a haste spell loses you the match, since when you lose it you're two full actions behind.

Shield is great! Against a high level samurai with EA it really doesn't matter that much. +5 from EA, +2 archery, +5 from ability, +6 from prof... That's +18 with a heavy skew towards the high end. Champion is just a few points behind that, if they can't get advantage. An EK can get up to 26 AC, but not without a fairly nasty opportunity cost. More realistically, they'll have 23 or 24. That's... A big deal, but shield is only going to act as 20-30% damage reduction.

Blur is basically pointless in a ranged 1v1 fight. Ready action is a thing. Expeditious retreat has the same problem.

I think that EK is 'the build to beat' at high levels, but it's trivial to conceive of a matchup where a champion comes out ahead. Engaging at a massive distance in rough terrain with lots of hiding spots, for instance. Long fights with lots of attrition favor a champion massively. Short fights favor the EK.

It really does come down to terrain and build. A ranged build will destroy a melee build if the starting range is 150 feet. A melee build with sentinel will destroy a ranged build if the starting range is 15 feet. A build that has magic items and feats making him nearly immune to magic will fair much better against an ek focused on debuffs.

EK is a strong pvp subclass because it has long rest resources, but other factors are more important in any specific fight.

Any other conclusion is always going to be constant whataboutism.

EDIT: I was thinking about blink, not blur. Blur is a solid spell, but once again its concentration, which means that it's probably going to be lost within 1-2 rounds. More with warcaster and shield.

[Unoriginal]

We could also put that to the test by going in the PbP subforum and doing that fight.

[bid]

Level 7 they get level 2 spells which isn't a huge deal for Abjuration/Evocation but at level 8 you can learn Blur which imposes Disadvantage on all incoming attacks....
You can do that at level 7, why wait for 8?

[TheUser]

Haste isn't worth casting here.

With the number of attacks flying around, concentration spells will be lost, and losing a haste spell loses you the match, since when you lose it you're two full actions behind.

Shield is great! Against a high level samurai with EA it really doesn't matter that much. +5 from EA, +2 archery, +5 from ability, +6 from prof... That's +18 with a heavy skew towards the high end. Champion is just a few points behind that, if they can't get advantage. An EK can get up to 26 AC, but not without a fairly nasty opportunity cost. More realistically, they'll have 23 or 24. That's... A big deal, but shield is only going to act as 20-30% damage reduction.

Blur is basically pointless in a ranged 1v1 fight. Ready action is a thing. Expeditious retreat has the same problem.

I think that EK is 'the build to beat' at high levels, but it's trivial to conceive of a matchup where a champion comes out ahead. Engaging at a massive distance in rough terrain with lots of hiding spots, for instance. Long fights with lots of attrition favor a champion massively. Short fights favor the EK.

It really does come down to terrain and build. A ranged build will destroy a melee build if the starting range is 150 feet. A melee build with sentinel will destroy a ranged build if the starting range is 15 feet. A build that has magic items and feats making him nearly immune to magic will fair much better against an ek focused on debuffs.

EK is a strong pvp subclass because it has long rest resources, but other factors are more important in any specific fight.

Any other conclusion is always going to be constant whataboutism.


This is quality here.

"Haste is useless despite the fact I get double movespeed and a free dash action..."

You dash, move 60ft in, attack 3 times, trigger an opportunity attack and go behind cover 60ft away.


This of course is under the supposition that we are dealing with melee combat.

As soon as you start dealing in ranged weapons the champion is even more boned against a hasted target because now they can attack 3 times and dash once so they have anywhere from 2-4x movement.

That champion who's "hiding" behind cover is getting picked apart. By a hell of a lot more than 10hp a round.

EDIT: A hasted EK has 23 AC which becomes 28 with shield....so at Max level you have Samurai/Champions who need to roll 17 or higher to hit when shield is up....

[Arcangel4774]

A good dileaniation in this thread would be to differentiate between builds. A melee fight, starting at 15 ft, and a ranged fight starting at 150 ft. Further abstraction based on level is important as well. In melee I'm fairly certain ek will get the most wins, although it can be bested by some others. In ranged I'd think arcane archer has advantage but I'm not wholly certain.

[Unoriginal]

This is quality here.

"Haste is useless despite the fact I get double movespeed and a free dash action..."

You dash, move 60ft in, attack 3 times, trigger an opportunity attack


,get hit, lose concentration, get slaughtered the next turn.

[strangebloke]

This is quality here.

"Haste is useless despite the fact I get double movespeed and a free dash action..."

You dash, move 60ft in, attack 3 times, trigger an opportunity attack and go behind cover 60ft away.


This of course is under the supposition that we are dealing with melee combat.

As soon as you start dealing in ranged weapons the champion is even more boned against a hasted target because now they can attack 3 times and dash once so they have anywhere from 2-4x movement.

That champion who's "hiding" behind cover is getting picked apart. By a hell of a lot more than 10hp a round.
And all that kiting is irrelevant because you can just take the ready action.

So if the EK wins initiative, he can action surge, cast haste, attack, eat an OA, and run away.

The other fighter then just readies an action, and when speedy gonzales comes out to attack he eats a full round of attacks. So all his dashing, etc. earns him an extra attack each round (bonus action attack, if he has one) and when he loses the spell he'll be stunned...

At which point he eats 16+ attacks.

Against a champion that deals 4d6+magic+5+10=29+magic damage on a crit, that's a DC 15 concentration save, and if magic items are in play it could easily be a DC 20 or more.

Heck, if magic items are in play, what about a ring of counterspell?

It's a good spell. But it has drawbacks that are unfair to gloss over. The EK probably wins more matchups than any other subclass, but your smugness is uncalled for. Factors other than subclass matter more, however, like "which build are you using?"

[TheUser]

And all that kiting is irrelevant because you can just take the ready action.

So if the EK wins initiative, he can action surge, cast haste, attack, eat an OA, and run away.

The other fighter then just readies an action, and when speedy gonzales comes out to attack he eats a full round of attacks. So all his dashing, etc. earns him an extra attack each round (bonus action attack, if he has one) and when he loses the spell he'll be stunned...

At which point he eats 16+ attacks.

Against a champion that deals 4d6+magic+5+10=29+magic damage on a crit, that's a DC 15 concentration save, and if magic items are in play it could easily be a DC 20 or more.

Heck, if magic items are in play, what about a ring of counterspell?

It's a good spell. But it has drawbacks that are unfair to gloss over. The EK probably wins more matchups than any other subclass, but your smugness is uncalled for. Factors other than subclass matter more, however, like "which build are you using?"

The ready action allows for 1 attack...

Nice work.

(Extra attack only functions on your turn)

[TIPOT]

The ready action allows for 1 attack...

Nice work.

Conveniently ignoring the main point, that haste being broken is pretty much an auto loss.

[TheUser]

,get hit, lose concentration, get slaughtered the next turn.

With +3 con modifier and +5 from proficiency (minimum) we're dealing with a 1/20 chance to lose concentration from any attack that is under 22 damage...

If the EK has warcaster it's 1/400

This is with no magic items or additional con modifier....

[alchahest]

I think EK and Samurai are very strong in this, Battlemaster is also good, but Purple Dragon Knight, Arcane Archer, Cavalier, and Champion fall behind.


EK isn't an auto-win by any stretch though. Especially against Samurai, who've got an additional save proficiency. Every flavour of fighter has extra ASIs available and if you're (like most tables) allowing feats, that opens up options for non-spell damage, and ways to work against spellcasters. So yes, an EK can take warcaster, but the Samurai or Battlemaster can have mageslayer and counter the advantage. As an example. There's more out there too. And of course, every fighter has indomitable.

As far as non-magical items goes a note here, Adamantine armor shuts off Champion's biggest advantage, and every kind of fighter can wear it. Food for thought.

[strangebloke]

The ready action allows for 1 attack...

Nice work.

(Extra attack only functions on your turn)

TBH didn't know that, thanks. That does make kiting more effective. I still disagree with your opinion for all the other reasons I outlined, but history shows that arguing with you is pointless.

[ciarannihill]

How the characters are built seems like a legitimate question, especially the Samurai...Elvish Accuracy is a huge boon for the subclass that has at will Advantage for Archery, especially when you have something like Sharpshooter to ignore most cover and such.

[bid]

How the characters are built seems like a legitimate question, especially the Samurai...Elvish Accuracy is a huge boon for the subclass that has at will Advantage for Archery, especially when you have something like Sharpshooter to ignore most cover and such.
3 times per long rest is not "at will".

[ZorroGames]

Before a mod comes down on this thread let me point out that this level of rudeness has caused threads to be locked and people banned if it persists.

[ciarannihill]

3 times per long rest is not "at will".

I meant that it needs not fulfill any specific conditions to attain it, though yes I suppose the specific phrasing shouldn't be "at will", though given the parameters of the combat I would say it may as well be at will, but yes semantically you're correct.

Still if it's a level 20 Samurai it gets 3 Fighting Spirit uses -- 2 of them can on Action Surge turns where you would get 9 attack total (Swift Strike), 8 of them being with "super advantage" and Sharp Shooter.

[Degwerks]

My vote is for the EK. In melee anyway.
I'd cast a 3rd level Shadow Blade as my bonus action and then make 4 attacks doing 3d8 psychic damage each, then action surge for 4 more attacks. 24d8 on my first turn. If by my 2nd turn that Shadow Blade is still going and I didn't lose concentration I'd attack 4 more times and then action surge again and then bonus action Misty Step away and then use my move for another 30ft. Just to mess with the enemy actions.

I'd just continue to use Shadow Blade.

[CantigThimble]

Eldritch Knight doesn't have the advantage because casters>martial, it has the advantage because it's customizable and its resources are long-rest dependent. So if it can pick its abilities knowing what kind of opponent it's going to fight (a single enemy fighter, even if you don't know exact build that narrows it down a lot) and the eldritch knight can blow an entire day's worth of power in one fight with no downside.

I'm just saying, if the contest was to see what type of fighter could kill more of an infinite horde of goblins or who can win the most medium-hard encounters in a row then the eldritch knight might be on top for those contests too, but his spell list is going to look different each time.

[TheUser]

TBH didn't know that, thanks. That does make kiting more effective. I still disagree with your opinion for all the other reasons I outlined, but history shows that arguing with you is pointless.

Since mechanics don't seem to be your strong point it bears considering that the disadvantage from eldritch strike affects the re-roll of indomitable as well as repeat saves like from hold person; which is to say if you initially rolled at disdvantage then indomitable will only only grant you another save attempt at disadvantage. Additionally, if a target fails the first save of hold person and the EK lands another attack, the next save is at disadvantage because it comes from a spell cast before the end of the EK's next turn. Meaning if the EK decides to crank Intelligence after level 10, pinpointing and exploiting weak saves is -very- easy for them.


Eldritch Strike
At 10th level, you learn how to make your weapon strikes undercut a creature’s resistance to your spells. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.


Because the save hasn't been resolved when indomitable triggers it still counts as the first save being made, not a new saving throw.

As well instead of using terms like "first saving throw" like the heighten spell metamagic, it uses the term "next saving throw" which implies one might have come before or another subsequent one may come after. Thankfully it doesn't stack up but the mechanics favor the EK greatly.

[strangebloke]

Eldritch Knight doesn't have the advantage because casters>martial, it has the advantage because it's customizable and its resources are long-rest dependent. So if it can pick its abilities knowing what kind of opponent it's going to fight (a single enemy fighter, even if you don't know exact build that narrows it down a lot) and the eldritch knight can blow an entire day's worth of power in one fight with no downside.

I'm just saying, if the contest was to see what type of fighter could kill more of an infinite horde of goblins or who can win the most medium-hard encounters in a row then the eldritch knight might be on top for those contests too, but his spell list is going to look different each time.

Yeah this is what I was saying.

In any PVP matchup, it comes down to 'how hard can you nova?' That's why, omitting certain strategies, a rogue will do worse in PVP than a monk, and why a paladin will do better than a ranger.

The EK and Samurai are the two fighter sublcasses with Long Rest resources. So they're at the top. I think the EK is much more flexible and powerful than the Samurai, who is actually pretty weak, IMO, so I see him as 'the subclass to beat.'

I mostly disagree with TheUser's "EK wins every fight forever no matter what."

...Although TheUser is actually saying "EK wins every fight if he employs this exact strategy and has the appropriate counters."

[TheUser]

...Although TheUser is actually saying "EK wins every fight if he employs this exact strategy and has the appropriate counters."

I will re-iterate since you seem so content to straw man me.

There are a whole host of low level spells that completely trivialize 1v1 fights that an eldritch knight has access to that they are extremely likely to have across any and all builds. So much so that the odds of them curbstomping any other fighter are extreme.

1) shield and/or expeditious retreat

2) Blur (synergy with shield), Hold Person + War Magic

3) Haste, Slow, Fear, Blink

4) Stone Skin, Greater Invis


An Eldritch Knight won't have -all- of these spells but if they have even one of them, this duel becomes a one sided landslide. Especially in the case of Haste.

There are other great spells like Levitate, Suggestion, Spider Climb, Gust of Wind...
Bestow Curse, Fly....
If you are any number of Fighters who uses Strength as your primary stat then all of these spells will absolutely wreck the EK's opponent.

You fail one save against Suggestion, Bestow Curse or Levitate then the duel slants towards the EK massively.

The EK doesn't have to build to duel, they just have to build to their own strengths and the odds are they will tear down any other fighter in a 1v1 fight.

[Kane0]

Hmm, hadn't considered Samurai. I wonder if there is a case to be made for Arcane Archer even? Enfeebling, Grasping and Shadow Arrow could be useful.

[bid]

Still if it's a level 20 Samurai it gets 3 Fighting Spirit uses -- 2 of them can on Action Surge turns where you would get 9 attack total (Swift Strike), 8 of them being with "super advantage" and Sharp Shooter.
Yeah, since it's a single fight you can't short rest to have them all on action surges. It's still enough to make a good contender for 1v1.

[strangebloke]

I will re-iterate since you seem so content to straw man me.

There are a whole host of low level spells that completely trivialize 1v1 fights that an eldritch knight has access to that they are extremely likely to have across any and all builds.

Ok, let's go through this.

The initial statement of myself and most people in this thread was: "Probably EK followed by samurai. However, with this level of information, not enough hard specifics."

You then stated that too many EK abilities make a 1v1 fight trivial for the EK. Let's be clear, you said that every one of these spells trivialize any encounter. I will agree that some of them trivialize many encounters, however, you also said that "the only factor to consider is one of them gets spell slots for wizard spells and the other's don't."

There are a lot of potential 1v1 battles.

The Shield Spell seriously trivializes every encounter? What about a fight with an EA samurai, who can get +5 to each attack via EA + fighting spirit? What about a battle scenario where surprise is possible? Kiting spells completely overpower any fighter? What about a cavalier, who can completely nullify pretty much all melee kiting strategies? What about a what about a 20x20 foot room where kiting strats are literally impossible?

And the issue is, this is hardcore rocket tag, and a lot of the EK's competition is ahead on HP/Damage. With EA accuracy, a samurai has an effective +13 after applying SS, and deals ~20 damage a hit up to 9 times a round. Or a +11 with 23 damage for a greatsword. The samurai can nuke an EK in two turns, and it gets to take a turn after dropping to zero hit points. AND the samurai is perfectly capable of healing himself on his reaction turn and taking yet another turn if the EK has no damage left on that turn. Even an arcane archer is capable of mixing 1-turn disables into his attack action.

In light of that action economy deficiency, you're talking about a whole action spent debuffing/buffing? It can work, certainly. Depending on the matchup it very well might. However, if the spell fails or the buff is lost, the EK is suddenly severely behind.

And like I said, I still agree that the EK wins a majority of all possible matchups. I just think you're being incredibly insulting to everyone and that you're overstating your case.

[Kane0]

Lucky would also be super useful.

[strangebloke]

Lucky would also be super useful.

Lucky is completely broken in any single-encounter day.

[Kane0]

For the laughs, my entry in the Fighter Free For All is an AA 20, Wood elf because that's appropriately thematic.

Str* 10
Dex 20
Con* 14
Int 14
Wis* 14
Cha 8

Proficient in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Nature, Perception, Survival

Archery Fighting Style, Second Wind (1d10 +20), Action Surge x2, Extra Attack x3, Indomitable x3

Magical Arrows (DC 16) x2: Banishing, Beguiling, Bursting, Enfeebling, Grasping, Shadow
Feats: Lucky, Magic Initiate (Warlock), Resilient (Wis), Sharpshooter, Wood Elf Magic
Casting: Druidcraft, Guidance, Mending, Prestidigitation, Longstrider, Hex and Pass Without Trace

Basic strategy is skulking around at a brisk 45' and +10 to stealth rolls until he spots his target with his elvey senses. Then he moves himself in a favorable position if possible then engages at a distance with his magical arrows, keeping at range as best he can. If the target gets too close he brings up hex (targeting wisdom) and attempts to fade away for another strike later on, or if pressed close in with a finesse weapon (or two). His cantrips are mostly for theatrics, cleaning up after himself and fixing his bow if some idiot goes for the string.

I fully expect him to get trounced, but it was fun putting him together.

[lordorinko]

For the laughs, my entry in the Fighter Free For All is an AA 20, Wood elf because that's appropriately thematic.

Str* 10
Dex 20
Con* 14
Int 14
Wis* 14
Cha 8

Proficient in Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Nature, Perception, Survival

Archery Fighting Style, Second Wind (1d10 +20), Action Surge x2, Extra Attack x3, Indomitable x3

Magical Arrows (DC 16) x2: Banishing, Beguiling, Bursting, Enfeebling, Grasping, Shadow
Feats: Lucky, Magic Initiate (Warlock), Resilient (Wis), Sharpshooter, Wood Elf Magic
Casting: Druidcraft, Guidance, Mending, Prestidigitation, Longstrider, Hex and Pass Without Trace

Basic strategy is skulking around at a brisk 45' and +10 to stealth rolls until he spots his target with his elvey senses. Then he moves himself in a favorable position if possible then engages at a distance with his magical arrows, keeping at range as best he can. If the target gets too close he brings up hex (targeting wisdom) and attempts to fade away for another strike later on, or if pressed close in with a finesse weapon (or two). His cantrips are mostly for theatrics, cleaning up after himself and fixing his bow if some idiot goes for the string.

I fully expect him to get trounced, but it was fun putting him together.

YES!! Let's do this! Anybody else want to present their Gladiator against this one?!

[Shadurak]

What about a fight with an EA samurai, who can get +5 to each attack via EA + fighting spirit
Excuse me, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just have to ask. EA stands for elven accuracy, right? How does it add +5 to the attack? It just allows you to reroll one of the attack dice.
If it's commonly accepted that super advantage roughly equals +5, I apologise.

[strangebloke]

Excuse me, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just have to ask. EA stands for elven accuracy, right? How does it add +5 to the attack? It just allows you to reroll one of the attack dice.
If it's commonly accepted that super advantage roughly equals +5, I apologise.

Yup.

In actuality, "highest 1 of 3d20" just cubes the miss chance.

So in the case of a +13 vs 24 AC, which is something like what you'd expect in the fights we're talking about, the miss chance is.5. 0.5^3=0.5*0.5*0.5=0.125. in this case, super advantage was worth +7.5.

The average bonus that super advantage gives is about +5 though, ignoring crits. If you factor in crits, super advantage grants more like +6.5 on average. (Or +9 in the example I gave.)

Generally, advantage and super advantage apply a larger bonus the closer you are to a starting miss chance of .5.

[ciarannihill]

And the issue is, this is hardcore rocket tag, and a lot of the EK's competition is ahead on HP/Damage. With EA accuracy, a samurai has an effective +13 after applying SS, and deals ~20 damage a hit up to 9 times a round. Or a +11 with 23 damage for a greatsword. The samurai can nuke an EK in two turns, and it gets to take a turn after dropping to zero hit points. AND the samurai is perfectly capable of healing himself on his reaction turn and taking yet another turn if the EK has no damage left on that turn.

So I 100% agree with the underlying argument you're presenting, but it is worth noting that EA can't be applied to a Greatsword swing, since the attack has to use Dex/Int/Wis/Cha to get the super advantage -- unless I'm misunderstanding the math you're presenting for the Greatsword example in which case I apologize for the interjection.

It's also worth considering how the various characters are built in terms of stats, since an EK has an additional stat "requirement" (assuming you're using any spells that requires rolls or saves) of Int compared to other Fighter builds, which means more ASI investments when compared to pure martial fighters, in theory. If we had a tangible build/sheet for the respective combatants it would make this far easier to argue than doing so in the abstract way we are currently.

[djreynolds]

With martial adept, a 17 or 18 level battlemaster can have 7 1d12 maneuvers a short rest.

Mage slayer second perk about concentration has no distance requirements like with in 5ft as the 1st and 3rd perks do.

So a 20th battlemaster archer with lucky, mage slayer, martial adept could be a tough opponent also with indomitable and resilient wisdom.

You only have so many spell slots with the shield spell before sharpshooter damage really starts to hurt.

Also grabbing magic initiate for cleric, concentrating on bless is sweet.

7 feats, maybe 8 with human variant.
2 dex, magic initiate, mage slayer, lucky, resilient wisdom, sharpshooter and maybe martial adept.

[mgshamster]

Champion. He's the only one who beat the Nameless King in 1v1. :D

[GlenSmash!]

Champion. He's the only one who beat the Nameless King in 1v1. :D

I applaud you sir!

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo those saying EK is probably the one to beat, owing to them being a long rest based subclass and therefore having the best nova potential, but it's going to come down to details, from terrain to losing conditions to exact builds and exact dice rolls.

[Kane0]

Anything but a featureless coliseum please.

Come to think of it, of all the Solaris locations the Coliseum is the only one I don't like.

[Galactkaktus]

I think that wood elf whould probably be the top racial pick in the phb 1 v 1 especially for melee. Since initiative is probbaly the most important roll in 1v1 so 2 dex is good 1 wis is not great, but the real advantage is 5ft extra movement since if you have more movement than your opponen you can move out of their range for melee attacks take 1 aoo while probably making more attacks than them with the attack action. This advantage is of course gone if there is not enough room to retreat. And at low levels Variant human is probably the best.

[Kane0]

Oh, don't Champions get an init bonus?

[bid]

Oh, don't Champions get an init bonus?
Half their proficiency, so +3.