Moon Druid vs Zealot Barb vs Long Death Monk

[CTurbo]

3-way fight to the death

All level 20, all "reasonably" optimized as in top tier race, maxed primary stat, and possibly secondary stat. Feats allowed.

Who is left standing?





Bonus silliness because I'm bored.

Put one of every class-subclass in a huge battle royale fight to the death, who comes out on top?

[Lombra]

Pvp sucks in this edition, the druid wins because he's a fullcaster.

[Vessyra]

Moon druid, as infinite elemental forms means that the can regenerate a buffer of elemental hit points faster than the opponents can deal it.

If the moon druid is taken out of the equation, then the zealot would win, thanks to the immunity to death while raging, then it would die after a ,minute when the rage ends,

[Lombra]

Moon druid, as infinite elemental forms means that the can regenerate a buffer of elemental hit points faster than the opponents can deal it.

If the moon druid is taken out of the equation, then the zealot would win, thanks to the immunity to death while raging, then it would die after a ,minute when the rage ends,

It's not that trivial... stunning strike with empty body is really strong. The monk can run away, make the zealot burn all of his rages, and then nova on him, at the same time, a zealot that grabs the monk and keeps it prone can end it quickly. It's very swingy. Basically a game of dice (duh).

[Pyramid Pug]

Rogue Mastermind, they call in sick and then sell tickets to show racking in the gold. Shares the profits with the bard gathering and entertaining the mob pre-fight and the wizard serving drinks to the patrons using Tenser's floating disk. :smallbiggrin:

[CTurbo]

Yeah I wondered if anybody would even give the Monk a chance. It has Stunning Strike even though it would be REALLY hard to stun the Barb, but not so much the Druid. It also has a really strong fear effect that would probably not work against the Druid, but would have a really good shot at working against the Barb. It could spend 1 ki to not die up to 20 times, and it has the ability to deal up to 20d10 damage on a failed Con save which could be enough to kill the Druid outright. And as mentioned above, it could play the hit and run game.

Not saying the Monk wins, but I think it deserves more credit in a match like this.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I'd say they all have a chance, but not equal.

If i were to guess it be something like

40% chance for the Druid
35% chance for the Barbarian
25% chance for the Monk.

which is as arbitrary as it sounds.

[strangebloke]

Monk stun does nothing to a druid. Has a hard time getting it to stick on a barbarian.

Druid can fly, nuke with spells... And can't see unless someone hits him with 100+ damage in a single turn.

Druid>zealot>monk

[jas61292]

Monk stun does nothing to a druid. Has a hard time getting it to stick on a barbarian.

Druid can fly, nuke with spells... And can't see unless someone hits him with 100+ damage in a single turn.

Druid>zealot>monk

Am I missing something? Cause I would think that a Monks stun would be particularly deadly to the driud. He's not immune, and is most likely to have a vulnerable Con save. The monk stuns him once and can just stun lock him until he's dead. Not to mention the monk is far more likely to go first thanks to its high dex.

[strangebloke]

"Stun-lock until dead"

Okay.

The Earth elemental has 17 ac and +5 con, so while he probably will get stunned by an OA at some point he's going to have several rounds of kiting. Then the monk needs to keep him locked for 4-5 rounds before getting through to the druid, and then it's 4-5 more rounds to kill the druid. If the druid fails every save, that's 16-20 ki points.

... If the druid fails every save. So if the druid makes 3 saves out of 13, he wins. Or something like that. Might be off by one.

And considering the druid has foresight...

[Derpaligtr]

3-way fight to the death

All level 20, all "reasonably" optimized as in top tier race, maxed primary stat, and possibly secondary stat. Feats allowed.

Who is left standing?


Bonus silliness because I'm bored.

Put one of every class-subclass in a huge battle royale fight to the death, who comes out on top?

Druid flys away and waits for the other two to fight it out. Or turns into an earth elemental and burrows away... Or whatever other stall tactic. Assuming the barbarian is already raging, they aren't gonna be talking it out. BarbarIan will probably win but it won't matter too much as the monk will take a chunk out of him (or even win with a chunk taken out of her).

Druid come back, fresh or mostly fresh, and takes out the winner.

Druid is just too slippery and can be Dex/Wis focused. Dex for AC outside of wildshape and Wis for spells and Wisdom saves. Monks are slippery but don't have the same tier of options as the Druid.

[jas61292]

"Stun-lock until dead"

Okay.

The Earth elemental has 17 ac and +5 con, so while he probably will get stunned by an OA at some point he's going to have several rounds of kiting. Then the monk needs to keep him locked for 4-5 rounds before getting through to the druid, and then it's 4-5 more rounds to kill the druid. If the druid fails every save, that's 16-20 ki points.

... If the druid fails every save. So if the druid makes 3 saves out of 13, he wins. Or something like that. Might be off by one.

And considering the druid has foresight...

17 AC really is nothing. Any level 20 character should have a minimum +11, and quite likely more if there are any magic items in play. At a minimum that means he need to roll a 6, which means a 75% hit chance. Oh, and once stunned, the monk has advantage on all attacks the following round, bumping that up to a 93.75% chance to hit. Furthermore, +5 Con is nice, but without proficiency, its still failing its save at least 65% of the time. More likely than not, he's getting stunned every single round, even without the need for flurrying. At the bare minimum damage of 1d10+5, the monk takes an average of 12 hits to break the earth elemental, which even without flurrying could very easily be 4 rounds, but more likely 5. Assuming 1.5 Ki per round for stunning, they are left with over half their Ki left with which to wail on the helpless druid. That should be more than enough to take them out.

Of course, if we are not allowing any pre battle set up, the monk likely outspeeds the druid and stuns him before he even transforms, so... yeah.

[Tubben]

17 AC really is nothing. Any level 20 character should have a minimum +11, and quite likely more if there are any magic items in play. At a minimum that means he need to roll a 6, which means a 75% hit chance. Oh, and once stunned, the monk has advantage on all attacks the following round, bumping that up to a 93.75% chance to hit. Furthermore, +5 Con is nice, but without proficiency, its still failing its save at least 65% of the time. More likely than not, he's getting stunned every single round, even without the need for flurrying. At the bare minimum damage of 1d10+5, the monk takes an average of 12 hits to break the earth elemental, which even without flurrying could very easily be 4 rounds, but more likely 5. Assuming 1.5 Ki per round for stunning, they are left with over half their Ki left with which to wail on the helpless druid. That should be more than enough to take them out.

Of course, if we are not allowing any pre battle set up, the monk likely outspeeds the druid and stuns him before he even transforms, so... yeah.

As a Druid, i have resilient(con). And how about i dont transform into an earth elemental, but in an goristro ?

[Citan]

3-way fight to the death

All level 20, all "reasonably" optimized as in top tier race, maxed primary stat, and possibly secondary stat. Feats allowed.

Who is left standing?





Bonus silliness because I'm bored.

Put one of every class-subclass in a huge battle royale fight to the death, who comes out on top?
Moon Druid, there is not even a shred of doubt about it.
The two other simply can't one-shot him in Wild Shape, and he can wildshape infinitely. And that is, provided he would stand ground in a "bare-hands, face-to-face" fight.
He could also just make himself invisible and run, swarm the guys under hordes of creatures, ambush them from under the ground, or draw middle-fingers, ahem, claws at them from 100 feet above etc...
Because, you know, to add insult to injury, level 20 Druid can use any of his spells while Wild Shaped. So he could just Wild Shape as a Giant Eable or something, straight up Dash up to 120 feet, then squeal away in mockery while he makes spells rain down on his enemies.
Or, if the sky is off-limits, he would Wild Shape as something with a burrowing form (*random* example, Earth Elemental) and just glide underearth until he's hidden then popping back to launch a powerful spell then hiding again, back and forth.

You are putting one fullcaster with extreme mobility/resilience/sneakiness (better than any other caster, barring maybe a smart and prepared Wizard that had years to set up bootload of traps/securities/minions) against two guys that basically "can be life-threatening only when within 5 feet reach". They have 0 way to win, except Long Death Monk who would 1) manage to win Initiative 2) land his 17th level feature with as much as ki as possible, just keeping 4 ki for Empty Body against Barbarian. 3) have Druid fail on save and roll very high on damage 4) considering the Druid was stupid enough to start the fight in human form.

As for the Zealot VS Monk, honestly it depends much on the kind of fights.
In an enclosed arena, Zealot will win eventually.
In an open region, Monk has a very definite chance of winning. How?

Yeah, Zealot has "ignore death while rage is active", and he can activate it freely as a bonus action.
But the text is clear: you die at the end of rage is all conditions are otherwise fulfilled.
And Zealot will have low WIS, even if he most probably got Resilient: Wisdom (so +6 or +7).
And he can make a save reroll with advantage once per long rest, and make a forced reroll once per rage.

But Monk has free Fear, within 30 feet only, but lasts until the end of its next turn. He also has Empty Body to use, that makes him resistant to all and imposes disadvantage to Barb while he gets advantage.

In this situation, I don't see how aiming for Stunning Strike or lvl 17 feature could be considered a smart choice. Your chance to fail is extremely high.
However, starting with an Empty Body to pummel him with hit and run tactics (let's not forget that Monk would have a 70 base feet speed -Wood Elf + Monk bonus- against a 40 feet speed -Half-Orc or the like and +10 Barbarian bonus) and/or using kiting Fear>attack with daggers/javelins could work very well. It would take a loooong time, but it would work in the end. :=)

[Maxilian]

Moon Druid, i mean... the Moon Druid does not need to do anything fancy, he could just fly out as a Air Elemental, and there isn't much the others can do, even if he go with a hit and run, the others would, at most, be able to hit once with their reaction, and not like they can grapple an air elemental.

Note: The Druid have many ways to win, the others have niche ways to win, i guess the true question is: Barbarian vs Monk, who wins?

[strangebloke]

17 AC really is nothing. Any level 20 character should have a minimum +11, and quite likely more if there are any magic items in play. At a minimum that means he need to roll a 6, which means a 75% hit chance. Oh, and once stunned, the monk has advantage on all attacks the following round, bumping that up to a 93.75% chance to hit. Furthermore, +5 Con is nice, but without proficiency, its still failing its save at least 65% of the time. More likely than not, he's getting stunned every single round, even without the need for flurrying. At the bare minimum damage of 1d10+5, the monk takes an average of 12 hits to break the earth elemental, which even without flurrying could very easily be 4 rounds, but more likely 5. Assuming 1.5 Ki per round for stunning, they are left with over half their Ki left with which to wail on the helpless druid. That should be more than enough to take them out.

Of course, if we are not allowing any pre battle set up, the monk likely outspeeds the druid and stuns him before he even transforms, so... yeah.

Foresight. You're forgetting Foresight.

It lasts eight hours, which typically means in vs. discussions that it's allowable setup. Similarly, wildshape lasts forever and the Druid can cast in wildshape so there is no reason for him to not be in elemental form all the time forever.

Foresight grants advantage to all of the druid's attacks and saves, and disadvantage to all of the monk's attacks and saves. So the monk doesn't have a 75% chance of hitting, he has a 56% chance. If the druid has resilient:CON (why wouldn't he?) he has a 90% chance of saving against stunning strike in elemental form and a 75% chance of saving in humanoid form.

The monk probably loses initiative to an earth elemental as often as not.

So, on four attacks, the monk will usually hit twice, and if he spends a ki both times, the druid in elemental form has a 77% of not being stunned on that turn.

On a turn where the druid is stunned to begin with, the monk will usually hit three times, and if he spends a ki each time the druid in elemental form has a 50% chance of not being stunned on that turn.

If the druid ever gets a single turn. where he isn't stunned, he can instantly replenish all of his lost HP. The monk can only sustain his stunning pattern as stated above for 6 rounds. The odds of him maintain the stunning pattern for 6 consecutive rounds is around 2%, at which point if he hasn't killed the druid, he's lost anyway.

And all of this only happens if the druid takes no aggressive actions and chooses to stand in the open waiting to get punched. If he chooses to stay in air elemental form and rain death, there is literally nothing that the monk can do about it. Druid wins, hands down.

[sithlordnergal]

So, let us assume no prep time, no prep spells, no prep forms, no magic items, and, most importantly, no feats or multiclasses. Just a barbarian, druid, and monk wake up and immediately have to fight, right then and there. Here's what I see potentially happening:

First of all, I suspect the Monk will win initative, while the Druid and Barbarian being a toss up for who is next. If the Barbarian decided to max Dex to max their AC, then the Barbarian could go next.

Now, it is important to note that if the Moon Druid gets even one turn, then they win by default. Why? Because they can pop off a spell that does damage over time, turn into an air or earth elemental, and either disappear underground or fly 90 feet in the air. They can also use a spell like Moonbeam, which is a Con save instead of a Dex save, to get past things like Evasion. Hell, they just need to cast a 9th level Moonbeam once, and they'll be doing 9d10 radiant damage, or half if those trapped in it save, for 10 rounds. And if they choose to drop the spell, they can recast plenty of other spells while remaining in their Elemental Form.

Seeing as the Druid needs only one turn to win, I believe the Monk would go for a Stun-Lock on the Druid. Now, assuming the Monk has max Wisdom and the Druid has max Con, the Druid will have to make a DC 19 Con save or be stunned. With max Con, they'll need to roll a 14, which while that may be difficult it is do-able. Failing means the Druid is stunned, success means the Druid wins.

Provided we take the HP values given as the average for each class and max Con, the Druid has 203 hp. So the Monk will have a decent bit of hp to work through. Thankfully, they have plenty of ki points to get through the Druid's hp. That said, if they focus all of their efforts on the Druid, they will have fewer resources to deal with the Barbarian.

Speaking of which, the Barbarian. The Barbarian is key to this fight. If they join the monk and go all out on the druid, then the druid needs to make that save against stun as soon as possible or they will die quickly. They should be able to shrug off the stunning strike since they'll have a 13 Con save bonus due to 24 Con+6 proficiency bonus, which will let them keep up with the Monk. So they could easily focus on the Druid and try to rely on their resistances l, high hp, and high con save to deal with the monk.

Or they could focus on the monk, whittling the Monk down to make it easier on themselves when the Druid finally falls. This makes the most sense to me, because the monk will be force to either split their resources between the Barbarian and Druid at the same time, or ignore the Barbarian and just take the hits.


Having said all that, I do believe the Druid would be the most likely to win. The only way to stop the Druid is if the Monk focuses everything they have on the Druid, and the Druid only needs to roll a 14 to avoid being stunned. The Druid only needs one turn to use a spell and go into their elemental form, and then they are untouchable due to their movement options.

The next most likely winner is the Barbarian in my eyes. If the Monk goes all out on the Druid, then they'll be low on resources while the Barbarian is pretty much perfectly fine. Mix that with a ton of HP, resistance to the Monk's attacks, and being the one most capable of making the save against Stunning Fist, and the Barbarian has the advantage in a fight.

And finally, the Monk is the least likely to win. Sure, the Monk can do a ton of things...but that is part of the problem. They are the ones who have to spend the most resources just to lock down and defeat the Druid. If they decide to ignore the Druid for just one turn, it's over for them and the Barbarian. And even if they kill the Druid, they'll have spent much needed Ki Points to do it, and I am willing to bet the Barbarians smacked them a few times to soften them up for the final fight. They'll be starting the fight with the barbarian at partial strength, where as the barbarian will be fine for the most part.

[Citan]

@sithlordnergal: I appreciate your view of how fight could unveil, and agree with most of it...
Except for one, big, important point that has been stressed before.
A Moon Druid has no real reason not to be in Wild Shape at all times.
Except if he a) agreed to a death match in advance b) agreed to not use any buff beforehand (with a high-level caster using Detect/Dispel Magic to be sure). Which seems... Kinda improbable to me. ^^

Putting that tiny bit aside ^^, indeed Monk alone could make a dent into Druid but probably not kill it, Barbarian would be completely helpless against Druid, and both of them together would have a 80% chance of killing him (basically boiling down to "Monk wins Initiative").

With 203 HP and best AC 17 IIRC (non-metal armor and wood shield), Monk dealing average 4*(1d10+5) per turn (average 42, not including potential criticals that are bound to arise a few times since advantage on all attacks), probably using 1.5 Stunning Strike attempt on average, would then consume 2.5 Ki per turn...
So could last 8 rounds, dealing an average of 42*8 = 336 if everything hit (chance to hit without/with advantage: 75/93%, with the few critical offsetting the few misses) before being completely at the mercy of Barbarian (or still-living Druid).
So, technically, with a great bit of luck and winning Initiative, Monk could indeed vanquish Druid alone but then would be trampled by Barbarian.

Barbarian however could add to the mix an impressive 2*(1d6+7+4)+(1d6+4)+(1d6+10) for a whooping average of 49.5 (not including criticals and Brutal Critical) (yeah, no feat = not using dual-wielding would be extremely stupid). With a chance to hit of 97% (since he would come after Monk so Druid already stunned so advantage, with base bonus +6+7).

So with both teaming up, provided Monk manages to win Initiative and stun Druid on the first turn... Druid is actually a plain toast, because Monk wouldn't hesitate to sink as many SS attempts as needed to keep him stunned over three rounds, which should be statistically enough for him and Barb to down Druid (worst case, five rounds, best case -both crits on several attacks-, two).

EDIT: Obviously I stayed on your premises of no feat (and Druid being in human form). IF feats would be allowed, then I don't see any other end that Druid winning, because I don't see why a Druid would take anything else than Resilient: Constitution (obvious reason) as well as Alert (because getting the jump on him has been the only reasonable way to get a chance at killing him since quite a long time ago) and Observant (same reason), while still getting maxed WIS.
Also in a "normal" game, I wouldn't understand why a Druid expecting to go out of his nest/cavern/house would not use Foresight for the day unless on that specific day he intended to use another 9th level spell, but that's another matter.

[sithlordnergal]

@sithlordnergal: I appreciate your view of how fight could unveil, and agree with most of it...
Except for one, big, important point that has been stressed before.
A Moon Druid has no real reason not to be in Wild Shape at all times.
Except if he a) agreed to a death match in advance b) agreed to not use any buff beforehand (with a high-level caster using Detect/Dispel Magic to be sure). Which seems... Kinda improbable to me. ^^

So with both teaming up, provided Monk manages to win Initiative and stun Druid on the first turn... Druid is actually a plain toast, because Monk wouldn't hesitate to sink as many SS attempts as needed to keep him stunned over three rounds, which should be statistically enough for him and Barb to down Druid (worst case, five rounds, best case -both crits on several attacks-, two).


Yeah, I know Moon Druids have no reason not to be in wild shape at all times, but I felt that it would be a bit unfair for the Druid to start with any buffs. I mean, they already need only one turn to win, why give them an additional 126 hp to start out with, or the effects of Foresight, too? That just makes it even more probable that the druid would win.

And yeah, the druid would die pretty quickly if the Barbarian and Monk team up...but why would the Barbarian do that at the beginning? Don't get me wrong, it lets them kill the Druid faster which is highly important, but at the same time you could force the Monk to waste more resources and start out with lower HP. I will say that I forgot that Flurry of Blows can give the Monk 4 attacks, and the Monk can use stunning strike on each one. So the Druid would have to roll 14 or higher 4 times in a row. Again, not impossible but the chances of that are even lower now. So unless the druid gets lucky, the Monk can lock the Druid down on their own. Which leaves the Barbarian free to attack the Monk and Druid at the same time. The Barbarian could easily split their attacks up, making the end fight with the Monk that much easier.