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RAGE KING!
2007-09-08, 11:13 PM
Large whip, and whirlwind attack. One attack against each opponent within 20 feet. Nice. What classes and support feats would you suggest? Also, how do you get around low damage, without being able to use stuff like weapon specialization?

I was thinking fighter 6 with

weapon finesse
improved initiative
dodge
mobility
spring attack
combat expertise
weapon proficiency (whip)
whirlwind attack

Kaelik
2007-09-08, 11:24 PM
Spiked Chain.

Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness)
Couple levels of Psychic Warrior for Expansion and faster progression on Fighter Bonus Feats.

Jasdoif
2007-09-08, 11:27 PM
The real problem is that a whip doesn't deal damage to a creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher, or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.

I've heard of taking a one-level dip in pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) to overcome this problem, you might take a look at it.

Zincorium
2007-09-08, 11:27 PM
Ditch the whip, spiked chain was a good suggestion.

Technically, your reach as a large (tall) creature with a whip of the appropriate size would be 30' or 15' depending on your ruling, but either way you would not threaten a single creature in that range.

That, and given the inability for whips to harm anything with a reasonable armor bonus, makes it pretty much useless for your build.

Miles Invictus
2007-09-09, 02:10 AM
Doesn't one of the splatbooks have a whip that affects armored opponents?

Falconsflight
2007-09-09, 02:44 AM
That would be the spike whip, who acts like a whip, but for armor up to +6, and does 1d4 damage, Or a Mighty whip, which, like a bow, allows strength bonus additions based on price.

Quietus
2007-09-09, 06:55 AM
That would be the spike whip, who acts like a whip, but for armor up to +6, and does 1d4 damage, Or a Mighty whip, which, like a bow, allows strength bonus additions based on price.

In Sword and Fist they have the Whip Dagger, which is basically a shortsword with a 15 foot reach that can trip. I personally wouldn't make players get Mighty versions of whips, as it just seems silly to me, and no whip threatens anyway, so that's a moot point.

Benejeseret
2007-09-09, 09:03 AM
Whirlwind damage....moot

But trip and disarm are both melee attacks. So why not whirlwind disarm? With improved whirlwind you get one attack at highest against all and then your normal full attack to boot. So disarm and trip everything in range with impr. disarm and impr. trip.

Scorpina
2007-09-09, 09:09 AM
Whirling Whips, Batman! :smallamused:


Doesn't one of the splatbooks have a whip that affects armored opponents?

Lasher. But it's 3.0, never updated. *sigh*

de-trick
2007-09-09, 10:00 AM
whip-dagger, is what your thinking about and a d6 for damage

Iku Rex
2007-09-09, 10:41 AM
The whip dagger (S&F, A&EG) is indeed the way to go. The lasher PrC (S&F) specializes in whips and gets a wounding ability at level 1 that lets a character deal normal damage even with a regular whip. Both should be easy to adapt to 3.5 rules.

A level of exotic weapon master (CWar) for the 2x Str bonus damage is a must.

Another option is to pick up a level of pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) (ExPsiH) to get the Fire Lash power. Throw in some 2-handed Power Attack (FAQ says it's allowed) and you'll do a fair amount of damage.

ocato
2007-09-09, 10:54 AM
They beat me to mentioning the whip dagger, its pretty decent. Um, Improved Trip is a staple for this sort of deal. I am reminded of the Dungeons and dorks webcomic character who's name escapes me. But he wields two whips and his only battle skill is tripping the ever-loving snot out of all things he meets. Infact at one point a monster is attacking the lady wizard, and he trips it, then she goes to thank him and he instinctively trips her too.

TWF Whip (dagger) master with whirlwind and improved trip? Suboptimal in all of my hilarously favorite ways.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-09, 06:03 PM
Whirling Chain o' DOOM

Lion Barbarian1/Fighter2/PsiWar4/Exotic Weapon Master2/Bear Warrior8/Warshaper 3.

Lion Barbarian: Rage + Pounce = Awsome.

Fighter2: 2 more feats at full BAB. Not a bad dip.

PsiWar4: needed for Pyrokeneticist, plus some fun manifesting like Hustle.

Bear Warrior 7: Needed for Warshaper. Plus extra rage and Brown Bear form which grants +16 to strength, a +2 to Dex, and a +8 to Con while raging.

Exotic Weapon Master 2: Flury of Blows, and Exotic Reach. The first gives you an extra attack in your attack chain, the second lets you hit anything with AoO, even if it has cover.

The Feats

EWP: Spiked Chain. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip. PA/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack. Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike.

The Trick
PA/ST/LA means you're doing triple BAB on damage. Every shot can be an Improved Trip. Ouch.

Here's the fun part: Warshaper gives you +5' reach. So Spiked Chain, which already gives you 10' now gives 15' reach. Then you Expansion, you now have 30' reach. And you threaten every square in it.

Variant... Whirling Whips o' DOOM (also known as the 'never miss' build)

Lion Barb1/Ranger1/PsiWar4/Slayer10/Pyro1/Exotic Weapon Master3

This build doesn't need bear warrior or warshaper. Instead, it uses it's Flame Lash as it's primary weapon. EWP Whip to use it properly, and to gain access to EWM, which gives Flurry of Strikes, Exotic Reach, and Uncanny Blow. Ranger gives you Track for free, to go into Slayer.

The only piece of gear you need for this build to work perfectly is a Ring of Blinking. Once you have this, you are nigh unstoppable. In most cases, Flat Footed + Touch Attack = AC 10. Try to MISS that, eh?

The only problem with this build is the fire damage. Running up against fire-immune baddies will ruin your day.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 06:09 PM
Schneeky...

Bears can't use spiked chains.

No opposable thumbs

So either you get no spiked chain, or you get no +16 str and extra reach.


Is it worth spending a standard action to manifest a two rounds expansion?

How low level do you have to be for 1 minute/level to equal out to only 2 rounds?

That's only 12 seconds.

Aximili
2007-09-09, 06:41 PM
Couple levels of Psychic Warrior for Expansion
Is it worth spending a standard action to manifest a two rounds expansion?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-09, 07:09 PM
Schneeky...

Bears can't use spiked chains.

No opposable thumbs

So either you get no spiked chain, or you get no +16 str and extra reach.

Expansion gives you extra reach, without needing Bear Warrior active. I had thought it turned you into sort of a wearbear form, not a true bear form. Even so, it really isn't all that vital, except as a prerequsite for Warshaper, which also gives you extra reach.

And as for Expansion...


Augment
You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.

If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a -4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a -2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action.
If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

You can manifest it as a swift action, no time needed.

If Bear Warrior just turns you into a bear, then go with something like Bear Warrior 1 and stick in six levels of Slayer, which is full BAB, and 9/10 manifesting. This gives you a manifesting level of 9, fully enough to augment for a swift action.

Kaelik
2007-09-09, 07:13 PM
Is it worth spending a standard action to manifest a two rounds expansion?

Um...? What Zincornium edit ninja'd you with. Duration of 1 minute per level.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 07:15 PM
Expansion gives you extra reach, without needing Bear Warrior active. I had thought it turned you into sort of a wearbear form, not a true bear form. Even so, it really isn't all that vital, except as a prerequsite for Warshaper, which also gives you extra reach.

If Bear Warrior just turns you into a bear, then go with something like Bear Warrior 1 and stick in six levels of Slayer, which is full BAB, and 9/10 manifesting. This gives you a manifesting level of 9, fully enough to augment for a swift action.

Warshaper only gives benefits when you're in a form other than your own, i.e. if you qualify for it using bear warrior, which turns you into a regular old bear, you get the additional reach when in bear form, and only then. Unless you have some other form shifting effect going.

It's a good combo, just completely useless for the purposes of gaining extra reach and wielding weapons.

Better to just continue on with the psionics. Psionic weapon master, from Wotc's 'Mind's Eye' series of articles would be a good addition.

Lemur
2007-09-09, 07:17 PM
:smalltongue: None of the Warshaper's class abilities work unless he's in an alternate form of some sort. So unless you have some other sort of shape altering method, morphic reach still isn't gonna work, and I don't think expansion cuts it.

Edit: predictably ninja'd :P

Kaelik
2007-09-09, 07:17 PM
Expansion gives you extra reach, without needing Bear Warrior active. I had thought it turned you into sort of a wearbear form, not a true bear form. Even so, it really isn't all that vital, except as a prerequsite for Warshaper, which also gives you extra reach.

And as for Expansion...



You can manifest it as a swift action, no time needed.

If Bear Warrior just turns you into a bear, then go with something like Bear Warrior 1 and stick in six levels of Slayer, which is full BAB, and 9/10 manifesting. This gives you a manifesting level of 9, fully enough to augment for a swift action.

First of all, Warshaper abilities only apply while in shifted form. So you wouldn't get that reach with the Spiked Chain anyway.

Secondly, note the duration augment. Even though you mistyped it, and the actual power has a typo in it somewhere. The duration augment is probably a better bet then casting as a swift action anyway.

Aximili
2007-09-09, 07:29 PM
How low level do you have to be for 1 minute/level to equal out to only 2 rounds?

Um...? What Zincornium edit ninja'd you with. Duration of 1 minute per level.

Holly mother! I could have sworn on my own grave that it was only 1 round/level.
Seriously, I had a spiked-chain-wielding character who didn't take this power only because it was 1 round/lvl. I read it like five times to be sure, because it made so little sense to me (I even looked for errata).

I feel like my eyes conspired against me.:smalleek:
EDIT: okay, my eyes did not conspire agaist me, the SRD did.
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 1
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Power Points: 1
But I was still pretty sure I had looked in the XPH too.

UserClone
2007-09-09, 09:09 PM
Lots of people noted the whip-dagger, but nobody's thrown out my favorite - the Nagaika. It's from Masters of the Wild, and while mechanically identical the the WD, the description is way cooler - it's a thick leather whip with bits of metal/glass embedded in it. Also, it can be made as a mighty weapon, like the composite bow.

Jasdoif
2007-09-09, 09:42 PM
EDIT: okay, my eyes did not conspire agaist me, the SRD did.
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 1
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Power Points: 1
But I was still pretty sure I had looked in the XPH too.Expansion is just plain weird in how it's been handled. In XPH, it's listed as one minute per level (dismissible); and its third augment option says spending two power points increases its duration to one minute per level instead of one round per level.

Then the errata says that the third augment option is supposed to say that it's supposed to increase it to ten minutes per level instead of one round per level...and doesn't update the original duration line. :smallsigh:

Meanwhile the SRD gives the base duration as one round per level. And I checked the RTF download on WotC's site to be sure that's indeed what it says, and it does.

UserClone
2007-09-09, 09:46 PM
Or you could just do what I do: say, "Meh, screw psionics, and just play a real wizard.":smallamused:

Shinkoro
2007-09-09, 09:49 PM
What ever happened to the scourge? Just curious.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-10, 03:54 AM
What ever happened to the scourge? Just curious.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Serpent Kingdoms, and City of the Spider-Queen(Lords of Darkness?) should all have some kind of Scourge statted out, off the top of my head.