Why Don't Fighters Get Anything at Level 5?

[Aett_Thorn]

Okay, so I know what you're going to say, "But Aett, they get Extra Attack at level 5!"

Well yes, yes they do. But every other martial class gets something else in addition to Extra Attack at level 5...every martial class but Fighters. Some just get a little something extra, some get something pretty decent:

Barbarians - Fast Movement
Monks - Stunning Strike
Paladins/Rangers - Access to their Level 2 spells (which I'm counting since it's a decent bump for them)

So why don't Fighters get something similar? You could say that it's because of Action Surge that makes getting extra attack so much better, but then I'd say that that interaction is kind of a Fighter's thing, so they shouldn't be penalized in class features for it.


I'm more just curious than anything, and wasn't sure if there was a kind of "official" reason for it, or if it's just the way it is.

[Relbin]

Action surge gets a power up with extra attack (gives 2 extra attacks instead of 1). Also fighters get a really strong feature at level 6 while most classes get ribbons.

[Aett_Thorn]

Action surge gets a power up with extra attack (gives 2 extra attacks instead of 1). Also fighters get a really strong feature at level 6 while most classes get ribbons.

Well, with Action Surge at level 5, Fighters can make 4 attacks in one round once per short rest. At that level, Monks can make 4 attacks in one round 5 times per short rest, and 3 attacks per round indefinitely if they want. Granted, at that level they are doing 1d6 per attack versus a fighter that might be doing 2d6 with a Greatsword, but it's still a more limited resource.

The additional ASI at level 6 is a decent point, though.

[Lombra]

Classes don't have to be streamlined and all built the same. The fighter works really well as-is, so there's no need for extra abilities really. On top of that, many fighter features rely on attacks, like maneouvers or extended crit range, so those look much better with extra attack too.

[leogobsin]

Well, with Action Surge at level 5, Fighters can make 4 attacks in one round once per short rest. At that level, Monks can make 4 attacks in one round 5 times per short rest, and 3 attacks per round indefinitely if they want. Granted, at that level they are doing 1d6 per attack versus a fighter that might be doing 2d6 with a Greatsword, but it's still a more limited resource.

The additional ASI at level 6 is a decent point, though.

Two of those monk's attacks are 1d6, and the other two aren't more than 1d8 (d10 if you're Kensei) though. The Fighter could potentially have all 4 be 2d6/1d12, or at range.

[bid]

Well yes, yes they do. But every other martial class gets something else in addition to Extra Attack at level 5...every martial class but Fighters. Some just get a little something extra, some get something pretty decent:
You're assuming all classes should get the same step up between level 4 and level 5. Which also means all classes were "equal" at level 4 and must be "equal" at level 5.

Is it possible that fighter were ahead at level 4, or will be ahead at level 6?

[Requilac]

The fighter was intentionally designed to be simple, so to me it makes sense that it has very few features. It already has a fighting style, second wind, action surge, a martial archetype feature, an ABI and extra attack, they aren’t underpowered at that level. If the class was meant to be simple, and is already doing well on its own, than why would they need a feature at level 5?

Just because all the other martial classes get a feature at level 5 doesn’t mean the fighter should. The classes were meant to be roughly equal sure, but that doesn’t mean they have to be all designed the same way.

[MaxWilson]

Action surge gets a power up with extra attack (gives 2 extra attacks instead of 1). Also fighters get a really strong feature at level 6 while most classes get ribbons.

Relatively few level 6 abilities are ribbons.

Paladin: gets +Cha to saves in a 10' radius
Monk: gets a subclass feature (e.g. bonus action teleport, at-will fear, free healing, or ability to cast 2nd level spells like Hold Person)
Ranger: useless ribbon
Barbarian: gets a subclass feature (e.g. always-on resistance to elemental damage, or a variety of rage bonuses: immunity to charm/fear, damage reduction on a reaction, reroll failed saving throws, temp HP every time you Reckless Attack)
Rogue: more Expertise

Really it's the Ranger and some Barbarian subclasses who are the outliers at 6th level, getting ribbons while everyone else gets something good. Just like Fighters are the outliers at 5th level.

[Kane0]

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't noticed that before.

Perhaps a good spot to put in something like a skill/tool proficiency? Barb gets +10' speed so we can't copy that.

[Speely]

Every class has meh levels. That said, I think Extra Attack is fine for a sole 5th level feature, since it synergizes with Action Surge so well. 5th level is a big power spike for fighters, especially considering that the very next level, they can boost their per-hit damage two levels before everyone else.

[HolyDraconus]

Every class has meh levels. That said, I think Extra Attack is fine for a sole 5th level feature, since it synergizes with Action Surge so well. 5th level is a big power spike for fighters, especially considering that the very next level, they can boost their per-hit damage two levels before everyone else.
Yet everyone else gets stuff that makes them BETTER at what they do On Top of Extra Attack. Hell, even BARDS get extra attack, so it's not like that version is super special

[Kane0]

Give em the ability to swap out their fighting style after a long rest?

[Speely]

Yet everyone else gets stuff that makes them BETTER at what they do On Top of Extra Attack. Hell, even BARDS get extra attack, so it's not like that version is super special

Respectfully,

A level in a vacuum doesn't matter in the progression scheme. Combined with what Fighters get at level 1, 2 and 6, extra attack is arguably better for them than any other class. They take better advantage of it, and sooner.

At level 6, a Fighter has probably maxed her damage stat far easier than anyone else two levels sooner, and if that already happened at 4 somehow, she can take a damage-enhancing feat to get even farther ahead on the damage scale (or the defense scale, etc.)

When a class has more ASIs than anyone else, I think it's fine for them to "only" get EA for a level while some others get more on top of that. Fighters are crazy good, and the features they get in surrounding levels make EA even better for them imo.

Just my 2c, of course. I think Fighters are absolutely fine, and that they shine early, and throughout.

[Jerrykhor]

Respectfully,

A level in a vacuum doesn't matter in the progression scheme. Combined with what Fighters get at level 1, 2 and 6, extra attack is arguably better for them than any other class. They take better advantage of it, and sooner.

At level 6, a Fighter has probably maxed her damage stat far easier than anyone else two levels sooner, and if that already happened at 4 somehow, she can take a damage-enhancing feat to get even farther ahead on the damage scale (or the defense scale, etc.)

When a class has more ASIs than anyone else, I think it's fine for them to "only" get EA for a level while some others get more on top of that. Fighters are crazy good, and the features they get in surrounding levels make EA even better for them imo.

Just my 2c, of course. I think Fighters are absolutely fine, and that they shine early, and throughout.

That's not how it works. The class that gets the most use out of Extra Attack is the guy with the best weapon with on hit effects. Fighters are no where near 'crazy good' when compared with other classes. Barbarians are more tanky and stronger, Paladins do more burst damage and have powerful auras, and Monks are more mobile with the best single target lock down - Stunning Strike. Fighters don't have much going for them. They only get even at 11th with the 3rd attack.

[bid]

They only get even at 11th with the 3rd attack.
IDS and lifedrinker would disagree.

I would look at Kryx tables before reaching a conclusion. Until someone pulls a result out of those numbers, I'll stay with the null hypothesis.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Comparing different classes by isolating 2 levels will leave things looking off.

Every class has a different power progression. Fighter 5 is fine.

[Derpaligtr]

Because there's this idea that everything can be fixed by saying "I attack". So much weight is put on "I attack" that the fighter obviously doesn't need class features that revolve around anything other than "I attack".

[Belier]

That's not how it works. The class that gets the most use out of Extra Attack is the guy with the best weapon with on hit effects. Fighters are no where near 'crazy good' when compared with other classes. Barbarians are more tanky and stronger, Paladins do more burst damage and have powerful auras, and Monks are more mobile with the best single target lock down - Stunning Strike. Fighters don't have much going for them. They only get even at 11th with the 3rd attack.

Then why can't druid get wish nor meteor swarm at level 17 while the wizard and sorcerers can get it going for themselves?

[Vorok]

Yet everyone else gets stuff that makes them BETTER at what they do On Top of Extra Attack. Hell, even BARDS get extra attack, so it's not like that version is super special

Bards get their extra attack a level later.

[Catullus64]

If you're going to make the claim that any class doesn't get a significant power spike at 5, I think Rogues are the better example. One extra d6 of Sneak Attack and a solid-but-not-gamechanging defensive feature like Uncanny Dodge is solid, but it's nowhere near the level of playstyle alteration that Extra Attack and 3rd Level Spells offer.

To be clear: I love Rogues, and I think they're the best designed, most enjoyable class in the game. But they seem to be a better example of a weirdly displaced power curve, especially with the weird spacing of their archetype features.

[Aett_Thorn]

I just want to make it clear that I don’t think that Fighters are imbalanced overall, or that they somehow lag behind at level 5 because of this. Nor do I think that every class needs to be the same in how they are designed.

I just thought that it was odd that for most martial classes, level 5 came with Extra Attack and X, but Fighters just got Extra Attack. I don’t think it’s imbalancing that way, just curious.

[Willie the Duck]

A level in a vacuum doesn't matter in the progression scheme.

Very much this. If class features were modular units that you could separate and analyze in a vacuum, the game would have morphed into a GURPs-alike game by now. They aren't, so it hasn't.

Mind you, the fact that 'level 5 class features' aren't of the same utility for each and every class does do interesting things to any game with multiclassing, but multiclassing in general is a real headache for game design.


That's not how it works. The class that gets the most use out of Extra Attack is the guy with the best weapon with on hit effects. Fighters are no where near 'crazy good' when compared with other classes. Barbarians are more tanky and stronger, Paladins do more burst damage and have powerful auras, and Monks are more mobile with the best single target lock down - Stunning Strike. Fighters don't have much going for them. They only get even at 11th with the 3rd attack.

I don't know that anyone suggested that fighters were "'crazy good' when compared with other classes," merely that they had abilities which synergized well with multiattack. As for fighters not having much going for them--this is anecdotal, but provided I chose correctly based on which recharge cycle my DM was going to favor (Long rest for EK, short for battlemaster, old school dungeon where any rest has an opportunity cost for champion), I have never been outperformed by barbarians, paladins, or monks in the combat output department (which is good, since each of them have OOC abilities). And that has usually been with a fighter with at least one ASI dedicated to a side-ability, such as healer, inspiring leader, ritual caster, etc. Each class has its' place, and I've never found the fighter to be the one that has to fight for relevance.

[Derpaligtr]

If you're going to make the claim that any class doesn't get a significant power spike at 5, I think Rogues are the better example. One extra d6 of Sneak Attack and a solid-but-not-gamechanging defensive feature like Uncanny Dodge is solid, but it's nowhere near the level of playstyle alteration that Extra Attack and 3rd Level Spells offer.

To be clear: I love Rogues, and I think they're the best designed, most enjoyable class in the game. But they seem to be a better example of a weirdly displaced power curve, especially with the weird spacing of their archetype features.

Uncanny Dodge is one of the best abilities in the game, along with ecpertise but for diffetent reasons.

Uncanny Dodge is a life saver in combat and out of combat allows you to do some weird social things that other character can't. Want to make your performance more real when the bard is telling a tale about slaying a dragon? Don't hold back when attacking the rogue (who is dressed as a knight). The rogue can use uncanny dodge to lessen the damage even though the hit was clean. Want to challenge a barbarian to a punch off in order to win his favor? The rogue can roll with the punches. Need to figure out who should carry the princess back to the king when she doesn't want to go back (you can't knock her out, damaging her will piss pff her father)? The rogue will be great staying alive if he's attacked (Bonus Action run away + reaction half damage on a serious hit).

Uncanny Dodge is worth a huge chunk of HP when things go bad and is, essentially, free reaction healing. Opportunity attacks are hard to generate in 5e most of the time (especially with errata) so using it as a way to survive is huge.

Uncanny Dodge is a huge defensive feature that can be used in social situations when set up properly.

[Catullus64]

Uncanny Dodge is one of the best abilities in the game, along with ecpertise but for diffetent reasons.

Uncanny Dodge is a life saver in combat and out of combat allows you to do some weird social things that other character can't. Want to make your performance more real when the bard is telling a tale about slaying a dragon? Don't hold back when attacking the rogue (who is dressed as a knight). The rogue can use uncanny dodge to lessen the damage even though the hit was clean. Want to challenge a barbarian to a punch off in order to win his favor? The rogue can roll with the punches. Need to figure out who should carry the princess back to the king when she doesn't want to go back (you can't knock her out, damaging her will piss pff her father)? The rogue will be great staying alive if he's attacked (Bonus Action run away + reaction half damage on a serious hit).

Uncanny Dodge is worth a huge chunk of HP when things go bad and is, essentially, free reaction healing. Opportunity attacks are hard to generate in 5e most of the time (especially with errata) so using it as a way to survive is huge.

Uncanny Dodge is a huge defensive feature that can be used in social situations when set up properly.

Friend, with that degree of imagination, a tool proficiency is a game-changer. I tend to write about D&D assuming most people have my middling amount of imagination regarding their class features.

[Afrodactyl]

Extra attack is a huge boon for fighters when combined with fighting styles and especially action surge. Even moreso when they get extra attack 2 and 3.

If however you feel it's lacking, I would suggest giving them a ribbon ability like a skill/tool proficiency, or another fighting style if you're feeling that they need another power jump.

[2D6GREATAXE]

Give em the ability to swap out their fighting style after a long rest?

This is genius!

[strangebloke]

Extra Attack is better for fighters than it is for paladins, barbarians, etc. Every fighter feature builds into making their attack action better.


Fighting Style: hit harder
Extra ASI: hit harder/more often and add damaging feats like savage attacker and GWM
Action Surge: hit more often in a burst
Maneuvers: add damage and a rider to your attacks.
Fighting Spirit: advantage to all attacks
Improved Critical: hit harder.
Unwavering Mark: add debuff to attack.


Extra attack doubles of the potency of all of those features.

[Vogie]

If you wanted to add anything, it would be something that has no impact on combat.

Maybe proficiencies, maybe ribbon abilities, additional background features, or other niche fighter-y things that make flavoring and fleshing out the character outside of the "just attack" mechanics that they have. Perhaps giving them an ability that can only happen while resting.

This could include:

Mentorship: Over the course of 7 long rests, you can grant a character with no class levels a single level of fighter
Professional Maintenance: During a short or long rest, you can repair breaks & tears in a weapon, armor, item or similar object. As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it, leaving no trace of the former damage, although you can't restore magic to an object.
Field Medic: During a short or long rest , you can replenish a use of a healer's kit (up to 10). During a long rest, if you do not have a healer's kit, you can create one with 2 uses.
Trapper: When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would. Hunter's Traps that you set have a DC of 16 rather than 13.
Fletching: During a short rest, you can create 20 arrows or bolts, doubled during long rest. Your arrows are of such quality that your quivers can store an additional 10 arrows, and you can sell a batch of 20 unused arrows in most towns for 2gp.

[Derpaligtr]

Friend, with that degree of imagination, a tool proficiency is a game-changer. I tend to write about D&D assuming most people have my middling amount of imagination regarding their class features.

Dude, I wasn't even trying. Those were the first things to come to mind for using uncanny dodge outside of combat. It's a pretty dang powerful ability that no tool prof is going to ever touch.

[LudicSavant]

Give em the ability to swap out their fighting style after a long rest?


This is genius!

Why even wait for a long rest? Let them change out their fighting style when they draw a new weapon or assume a new stance. Seems more thematic and associative, and it's not like a little versatility is going to make them put Paladins or Wizards out of a job.

[Kane0]

This is genius!


Why even wait for a long rest? Let them change out their fighting style when they draw a new weapon. Seems more thematic and associative, and it's not like a little versatility is going to make them put Paladins or Wizards out of a job.

Well i'd love to claim credit but it's really not an original idea.

I'd go so far as a short rest, to match when you attune to a new weapon and may want to switch your style to use with it.

[Wisefool]

Well, with Action Surge at level 5, Fighters can make 4 attacks in one round once per short rest. At that level, Monks can make 4 attacks in one round 5 times per short rest

This is a bad comparison as the Fighter's Action Surge doesn't compete with any of the class' other resources. If the Monk chooses to Flurry 5 times a short rest, then that means no Stunning Strikes, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, 4E/Shadow spells.