Sword Saint Build - Still Irredemable?

[z3rO1]

So, I know this archetype is kind of bad - The ability itself doesn't deal enough damage to be competitive, the shaken effect isn't a demoralization effect and therefore doesn't interact with anything intimidate-related, and there isn't even a good Order for a one-hit build, bar high-level abilities.

The only good interaction it has is with Combat Scabbard Tricks, and those are nice - but they, sadly, don't fix the total lack of damage.

But there was a lot of material released since the last time the discussion about the class popped up - or so it seems - so maybe something that interacts favourably with it has been released that I don't know of?

Also no, I don't want to switch classes instead, I'm already doing a Vital Strike build. And yea, it is fun, but I want to try something else as a buildaround ability. Hopefully this isn't as bad as it was after all these years?

Thanks everyone in advance!

[Andor13]

Well, if Path of War stuff is on the table, then there is an entire discipline devoted to iaijutsu stuff, Mithral Current (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/mithral-current-maneuvers/).

There is a template for three of the Intiator classes for turning them in to Iaijutsu specialists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/bushi-template).

But you said you're happy with the class and if you don't want to dip (note that the initiating system is very dip friendly) then there is still some feat support (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/). Worthy of note:

Daisho Expertise
Hone Weapon
Improved Quick Draw
Martial Training

[CharonsHelper]

If your GM is letting you combine it with Vital Strike (iffy) they should let you combine it with Deadly Stroke - which is MUCH better. Samurai are one of the few classes which can nab Deadly Stroke since it requires Greater Weapon Focus as a prerequisite.

If you go with a Merciful/Enforcer build you can combine that with Shatter Defenses (already a pre-req of Deadly Stroke) to be able to use Deadly Stroke pretty regularly.

[z3rO1]

If your GM is letting you combine it with Vital Strike (iffy) they should let you combine it with Deadly Stroke - which is MUCH better. Samurai are one of the few classes which can nab Deadly Stroke since it requires Greater Weapon Focus as a prerequisite.

If you go with a Merciful/Enforcer build you can combine that with Shatter Defenses (already a pre-req of Deadly Stroke) to be able to use Deadly Stroke pretty regularly.

Nonono, I meant that I am already doing a Vital Strike build and I want to do something else, not that my DM allows to combine Vital Strike and Sword Saint.

[z3rO1]

Well, if Path of War stuff is on the table, then there is an entire discipline devoted to iaijutsu stuff, Mithral Current (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/mithral-current-maneuvers/).

There is a template for three of the Intiator classes for turning them in to Iaijutsu specialists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/bushi-template).

But you said you're happy with the class and if you don't want to dip (note that the initiating system is very dip friendly) then there is still some feat support (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/). Worthy of note:

Daisho Expertise
Hone Weapon
Improved Quick Draw
Martial Training


Okay, Dashio Expertise I kind of understand - althought not sure - but how are other feats relevant?

Also I don't think that Iaijutsu Strike and PoW Maneuvers stack. Unless you are speaking boosts, than that would work!

[Elricaltovilla]

Okay, Dashio Expertise I kind of understand - althought not sure - but how are other feats relevant?

Also I don't think that Iaijutsu Strike and PoW Maneuvers stack. Unless you are speaking boosts, than that would work!

Daisho Expertise leads you into Deadly Agility (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/), which is where the real meat is. The combo lets you dump strength as you can use DEX for attack and damage rolls with your katana.

Hone weapon will allow you to improve your weapon damage on your downtime, good for taking advantage of your fighting style.

Improved Quick Draw lets you make draw attacks for Attacks of Opportunity, should you need them. It's most important for threatening because if you don't threaten any squares you can't make any attacks of opportunity.

Mixed Combat is better than Improved Quick Draw, as it will allow you to re-sheathe your weapon as a free action, so that you can continue using Iaijutsu Strike as needed.

Martial Training is a line of feats that get you access to lower level maneuvers from a discipline. This is how you get Mithral Current without dipping. It's feat intensive and not particularly strong, but worth pursuing if you want to pick up a few key maneuvers.

Iaijutsu Strike and Martial Strikes will not stack, but you can take advantage of boosts, counters and stances just fine. Focus on those and you'll see a notable improvement in your character's combat ability in no time. As an example, Mithral Current has a 1st level counter that lets you dodge an attack and make a free 5 ft. step after avoiding it, potentially protecting you from further attacks.

[CharonsHelper]

Nonono, I meant that I am already doing a Vital Strike build and I want to do something else, not that my DM allows to combine Vital Strike and Sword Saint.

Ah - that being the case I'd mostly ignore what the Sword Saint gives you.

Basically think of the archetype as a decent choice if you don't want to deal with having a mount. The abilities it gets aren't great, but if you don't want the mount anyway they're practically free. Just don't try to make them the focus of your samurai's build.

Samurai are decent martials even without a mount. So - just build one without focusing upon your Sword Saint extras.

[Andor13]

Martial Training is a line of feats that get you access to lower level maneuvers from a discipline. This is how you get Mithral Current without dipping. It's feat intensive and not particularly strong, but worth pursuing if you want to pick up a few key maneuvers.

What he said. Heed the game designer.

I mentioned that the initiator classes are dip friendly but I should clarify how, if you don't know they system. The disparity between the martial study feat line and even a single level of a proper class is worth looking at. (On review, the PoW Martial Study line is much more generous than the original ToB line, but still not great.)

If you were to take Martial training 1,2 and 3 at 3rd, 5th and 7th level you would know a single discipline from which you learn 6 maneuvers, of which you can ready 3, which means you would get to use each of those 3 once per fight, unless you could afford a full round action to recover 1. You would also know 2 stances from levels 1,2 or 3. This is actually not terrible. There are a lot of good stances at the lower levels. For example Ready the Draw, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/mithral-current-maneuvers/#TOC-Ready-the-Draw) is only a 1st level stance but is giving you some of the effects of both Improved Quick Draw and Combat Reflexes. Those maneuvers and stances however, will never change.

OTOH if you were to take a single level of, say Warlord (Bushi) you would learn 6 maneuvers drawn from up to 6 disciplines, and a single stance. You could ready 4 of the maneuvers, and you would also have a recovery method that allows you to cycle the maneuvers in combat, rather than using each one only once. Still, that might not seem like a big difference, 3 maneuvers and 2 stances vs 4 maneuvers and 1 stance seems about even. (Sure it's giving you 3 bonus feats instead of costing 3, but bear with me.)

The key difference is that Initiator levels continue to advance even when you take other classes. And you can swap your maneuvers known for higher level maneuvers as your Initiator levels improve, not just class levels.

So if you took your Warlord level at 5th character level you would already be a 3rd level initiator (Non-Warlord levels/2+1 warlord level =3) and you could select all your maneuvers from 1 or 2nd level choices. If you then keep advancing sword saint at 7th level you could trade up one maneuver for a 3rd level maneuver and at every 4th level thereafter.

If you really wanted another stance, the advanced study feat is now available instead of the Martial Study line.

[CharonsHelper]

Random thought:

Once you hit level 10 I believe that you could combine Iajutsu Strike with Felling Strike and Greater Trip to be a pretty decent combo.

But really - even at 10 it's mostly just a better Vital Strike (which is horrible) which drops your AC by two points.

Iajutsu Terror is okay - but the DC isn't high enough to work consistently. Making them shaken alone is mediocre, but if your group has another way to make them shaken (Just using Demoralize from the Intimidate skill won't cut it since it never stacks) you can combine to make them frightened.

Edit: An example would be the spell Doom which Iajutsu Terror would combine with to qualify for Frightened.

[Elricaltovilla]

If you really wanted another stance, the advanced study feat is now available instead of the Martial Study line.

Minor correction. You need 4 levels in an initiating class to take advanced study (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/advanced-study-combat/). It's not IL 4, but 4 actual class levels, whether they come from a base class, archetype or prestige class.

[z3rO1]

PoW Stuff

Many thanks, but I am very familiar with the PoW system, so I already knew most of this!

I just didn't look into it much because bulding a Mithril Current user isn't hard and most things there don't stack with Iaijutsu Strike that i want to try to build around.


Once you hit level 10 I believe that you could combine Iajutsu Strike with Felling Strike and Greater Trip to be a pretty decent combo.

Actually there is an easier and 1pp way to do this - there is Tangle Leg Heavy Combat Scabbard trick, that allows the same thing, but is kind of worse but not really. I like the Steer Opponent a bit more though, it gives us a ton of extra onhit, and that is very usefull so our presious attack will hit.

Sadly though all those things have problems - they are all Swift Actions, and our Challenge is a Swift Action too. So if we use those we kind of can't challenge and Iaijutsu Strike the same round. But challenge then wait a round technically could be an option still.

[Psyren]

The other folks here can speak to PoW stuff better than I can, so I'm going to assume you want options for sticking with first-party.

You probably want an Order whose bonuses don't care about the mount or banner (you lose both) or about full-attacking (so you can use it with your Iaijutsu Strike.) Some good ones for this are:

Order of the Dragon: the bonus to hit helps your IS land. Act As One gets you and your allies into flanking position around a major foe.
Order of the Lion: For The King works with your IS too, and the AC bonus lets you close the distance with your challenge target.
Order of the Warrior: Doesn't benefit IS directly, but has some nice benefits for single-hit-attacks.

The other thing for you to think about is (a) you count as a Fighter for Fighter-only feats and (b) if you don't neglect your Cha score you can pick up a couple of interesting abilities like Shatter Defenses and Eldritch Heritage.

[z3rO1]

if you don't neglect your Cha score you can pick up a couple of interesting abilities like Shatter Defenses and Eldritch Heritage.

An interesting idea! What bloodline would you reccomend for this?

[Psyren]

An interesting idea! What bloodline would you reccomend for this?

Actually, rather than recommend one myself - the Samurai Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gD4kwJXJPMUDGuKsvYiL03ACj-ZqiwDcMrkHtV9mmKI/edit) seems to have rated a bunch of them for exactly this reason, so I'll point you there :smallsmile:

[z3rO1]

Actually, rather than recommend one myself - the Samurai Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gD4kwJXJPMUDGuKsvYiL03ACj-ZqiwDcMrkHtV9mmKI/edit) seems to have rated a bunch of them for exactly this reason, so I'll point you there :smallsmile:

Hmmmm, nothing very interesting besides using Undead Bloodline and IS to make things frightened from the get-go. Could be good.

[CharonsHelper]

The other thing for you to think about is (a) you count as a Fighter for Fighter-only feats and (b) if you don't neglect your Cha score you can pick up a couple of interesting abilities like Shatter Defenses and Eldritch Heritage.

Not to mention Chain Challenge.

[z3rO1]

Not to mention Chain Challenge.

Isn't that replacable by Order of the Flame, probably even better than Chain Challenge?

[CharonsHelper]

Isn't that replacable by Order of the Flame, probably even better than Chain Challenge?

Yes and No.

There are a few disadvantages to it.

1. It's limited to only being 15ft away. Chain Challenge has no such limitation.

2. You're giving up access to other orders. You only get one, and several others are pretty sweet too. Chain Challenge is only a feat - much less of a cost.