Attribute Spread Rules

[ciarannihill]

I'm curious about peoples' preferred method of determining attributes scores?

I'm going to be starting up a game for a new group of players, 3 of whom are new-ish (one has played a pre-gen character and the other two have either never played or barely played), one of whom is experienced, and I want to create characters during session zero. There are of course the three methods outlined in the PHB, standard array, point buy and rolling, but I'm curious if anyone has houseruled methods of creating stat spreads and/or why they prefer any given method.

I've heard Matt Colville's version (rolling stats in order, but rerolling if at least 2 stats aren't 15 or greater -- as to facilitate on average stronger characters than basic rolling, but to also "discover" the character in the process of rolling), which is cool, but I think might lead to confusion for the newer players. I don't want to push them into a specific archetype if they've got a character feel in mind. So I was considering doing a modified version where the values are found the same way, but can be placed by the player as they want. Thoughts?

[Unoriginal]

Which one of the PHB methods do you like the most?

Once you've answered that, think of what you don't like about it, and what kind of tweak do you think it needs.

[ciarannihill]

Which one of the PHB methods do you like the most?

Once you've answered that, think of what you don't like about it, and what kind of tweak do you think it needs.

I like point buy and rolling the most for different reasons. I find rolling to be a somewhat exciting element to messing with numbers, but it's very swingy in terms of power level between characters -- I prefer characters to have a somewhat equal playing field to start with if possible. Point buy is great for keeping an even-ish playing field between characters, but it involves more math than the other two options and really forces new players to understand dump stats which can be difficult to grok IME.

I think the idea of rerolling if the array is too low (as Colville does) is an interesting one to try to keep people feeling useful, but it doesn't prevent the opposite problem -- someone rolling too high for everything and stepping on the other players' toes.


Understandably there is no perfect system, but I'd like to think there's a middle ground somewhere (perhaps naively).

[Theodoxus]

I use this method:

1. Ability Score GenerationScores are generated using a modified 27 Point Buy.
Ability Score Point Cost

Score
Cost
Score
Cost
Score
Cost


3
+5
8
0
13
-5


4
+4
9
-1
14
-7


5
+3
10
-2
15
-9


6
+2
11
-3
16
-11


7
+1
12
-4
17
-13







You can choose up to 2 disabilities, for a total of +4 points for Point Buy.Skill Disability Adjustment

Point
Disability
Disadvantage


+2
Clumsy
Acrobatics


+2
Smelly
Animal Handling


+2
Banal
Arcana


+2
Sedentary
Athletics


+2
Truthful
Deception


+2
Forgetful
History


+2
Insensitive
Insight


+2
Soft Spoken
Intimidation


+2
Clueless
Investigation


+2
Faith Healing
Medicine


+2
Civilized
Nature


+2
Unobservant
Perception


+2
Untalented
Performance


+2
Uncouth
Persuasion


+2
Faithless
Religion


+2
Non-dexterous
Sleight of Hand


+2
Obnoxious
Stealth


+2
City Slicker
Survival



Ability Changes:Intelligence
Characters can learn two additional languages or a single skill or tool proficiency for each point of Intelligence modifier at character creation as well as when a character's Intelligence modifier permanently increases.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I'm fine with standard array or point buy, but I hate the idea of rolling in order, particularly for new characters. I find with new players they tend to have an idea of what kind of character they want to play, and shoehorning a new player into a role they don't want is a good way to turn them off the game. My daughter is running a campaign for some of her friends, and one really wanted to be a sneaky character. If she'd rolled STR and CON and logically gone barbarian, she wouldn't be having as much fun as with her rogue.

I'm a firm believer in coming up with a character concept first, which means I really don't like Colville's idea. Doing "not at least two 15s, re-roll" and placing where you want works, but you always wind up with that one character who rolled ridiculously well who overshines everybody. I just like the generic sameness of point buy or standard array, particularly for starting players.

[Unoriginal]

I like point buy and rolling the most for different reasons. I find rolling to be a somewhat exciting element to messing with numbers, but it's very swingy in terms of power level between characters -- I prefer characters to have a somewhat equal playing field to start with if possible. Point buy is great for keeping an even-ish playing field between characters, but it involves more math than the other two options and really forces new players to understand dump stats which can be difficult to grok IME.

I think the idea of rerolling if the array is too low (as Colville does) is an interesting one to try to keep people feeling useful, but it doesn't prevent the opposite problem -- someone rolling too high for everything and stepping on the other players' toes.


Understandably there is no perfect system, but I'd like to think there's a middle ground somewhere (perhaps naively).

You could just do a fixed baseline and leave the rest to the dice.

Ex: all stats are 6+2d6. Should put you between 8 and 18

[ciarannihill]

I use this method:

1. Ability Score GenerationScores are generated using a modified 27 Point Buy.
Ability Score Point Cost

Score
Cost
Score
Cost
Score
Cost


3
+5
8
0
13
-5


4
+4
9
-1
14
-7


5
+3
10
-2
15
-9


6
+2
11
-3
16
-11


7
+1
12
-4
17
-13







You can choose up to 2 disabilities, for a total of +4 points for Point Buy.Skill Disability Adjustment

Point
Disability
Disadvantage


+2
Clumsy
Acrobatics


+2
Smelly
Animal Handling


+2
Banal
Arcana


+2
Sedentary
Athletics


+2
Truthful
Deception


+2
Forgetful
History


+2
Insensitive
Insight


+2
Soft Spoken
Intimidation


+2
Clueless
Investigation


+2
Faith Healing
Medicine


+2
Civilized
Nature


+2
Unobservant
Perception


+2
Untalented
Performance


+2
Uncouth
Persuasion


+2
Faithless
Religion


+2
Non-dexterous
Sleight of Hand


+2
Obnoxious
Stealth


+2
City Slicker
Survival



Ability Changes:Intelligence
Characters can learn two additional languages or a single skill or tool proficiency for each point of Intelligence modifier at character creation as well as when a character's Intelligence modifier permanently increases.
This seems super cool for experienced players/roleplayers to muck around with, but I think would add a layer of confusion to introducing new players to the idea of point buy. Will totally keep this in my back pocket for a later campaign though.

@Unoriginal:
This is an interesting way to make sure that they trend towards more powerful than regular rolling would dictate certainly, I'll for sure keep it in mind.

[DMThac0]

I gave my players 72 points, to spread as they see fit, with a limit to no higher than a 16 after racial abilities. It seems a bit strict, but it does seem to allow for stronger starts. When ASI comes around there's a challenge on Stat vs Feat but multi-classing is easier. As players they feel pretty well off, the challenges I threw at them that were "appropriate" according to the tables felt like they were a touch easier. As a DM it has given me a reason to be a bit more mindful of what I put together to make sure that combat, traps, and other skill based challenges have the appropriate challenging feel to them.

[Unoriginal]

I gave my players 72 points, to spread as they see fit, with a limit to no higher than a 16 after racial abilities. It seems a bit strict, but it does seem to allow for stronger starts. When ASI comes around there's a challenge on Stat vs Feat but multi-classing is easier. As players they feel pretty well off, the challenges I threw at them that were "appropriate" according to the tables felt like they were a touch easier. As a DM it has given me a reason to be a bit more mindful of what I put together to make sure that combat, traps, and other skill based challenges have the appropriate challenging feel to them.

...how could it seems "a bit strict" when you're giving them more than twice the ammount of points the PHB suggest?

[DMThac0]

Ah, I suppose that is a bit ambiguous:

72 point pool, not a point buy. If you consider the point spread: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, that's 72 points, but with racial adjustments you could get a 17; I put the cap at 16.

[ciarannihill]

...how could it seems "a bit strict" when you're giving them more than twice the ammount of points the PHB suggest?

I think the main difference is that, if I'm understanding correctly, they start at 0 in each stat and build based on point investment from there. In other words a totally even distribution would result in 12 in each stat. The "Limiting" factor being that if, say, I start as a Half Elf I can only invest 14 into Cha because my +2 would make it 16 - the maximum allowed by this system. As opposed to regular point buy which would allow for 17 total, 15 + 2 from racial benefit.

Unless I'm misunderstanding.


EDIT: Shadow Monk'd.

[MoiMagnus]

If you really want to roll the statistics, I strongly advise having the same roll for everyone.
(The DM roll once, re-rolling if he does not like, and then give the stats to everyone, they can be used up to permutation)
We did a game with a starting stat at 4, which leaded to to some very strange and fun stuffs.

However, if you want a "realistic campaign", or a "tactical campaign with a lot of optimization", I strongly advice against random statistics.

[Sigreid]

I prefer rolling and assign as desired for the variation and flexibility. If I want to bias a little higher I'll have them roll 4d6b3 7 times and take the best 6 to bias the characters to being a touch stronger.

[Tanarii]

For new players, always use standard array.

[Sigreid]

For new players, always use standard array.

I really dislike standard array, but only really care how it's done at a table I'm sitting at.

[ciarannihill]

For new players, always use standard array.

I'm genuinely curious what your reasoning is -- Is it just how "pick up and go" it is? Or some other reason?

[Unoriginal]

This is an interesting way to make sure that they trend towards more powerful than regular rolling would dictate certainly, I'll for sure keep it in mind.

The main idea is to keep the stats of the different characters relatively equivalent.

[Leith]

Higher stats don't matter as much as people think. Balance between PCs is more about everyone having an interesting and fun character. That they can interact with the story and encounters in a meaningful way. Unless your players are really petty or two of them want to play the same archetype (class) it doesn't make much of a difference because they're doing different things.

It's the same reason that it doesn't matter that fighters are objectively worse at combat than any other class. They still have a unique archetype (within the classes offered) and offer meaningful ways to interact with the setting.

[ciarannihill]

Higher stats don't matter as much as people think. Balance between PCs is more about everyone having an interesting and fun character. That they can interact with the story and encounters in a meaningful way. Unless your players are really petty or two of them want to play the same archetype (class) it doesn't make much of a difference because they're doing different things.

It's the same reason that it doesn't matter that fighters are objectively worse at combat than any other class. They still have a unique archetype (within the classes offered) and offer meaningful ways to interact with the setting.

Higher stats matter a bit in so far that I like my players to feel like they're good at the things their character should be good at. Not just marginally better than average. This is a personal thing, though, so I get that YMMV with it. Party balance is more vital to me, in that I don't want someone with unbelievable stats being able to step on the toes of other party members' stuff.


I disagree that Fighters are objectively worse at combat that any other class though? In fact I would argue for any given martial playstyle Fighter based builds are usually in competition for the best versions of those playstyles...But that's a different topic.

[JoeJ]

Have every player roll one complete set of six scores using 4d6-d. (It helps if you can write them down on a whiteboard or something, where they're easy for everybody to see.) Each player can use any of the sets they want, but they have to take the full set of six scores.

[Tanarii]

I'm genuinely curious what your reasoning is -- Is it just how "pick up and go" it is? Or some other reason?
There are two default ways to do ability scores in 5e: rolling or standard array. New players dont know enough to understand the possible ramifications of choosing to roll.

[JackPhoenix]

I really dislike standard array, but only really care how it's done at a table I'm sitting at.

I found out that even with point buy, the resulting stats (pre-racial bonuses) fit standard array most of the time anyway.

[Greywander]

This is the method I've elected to use:

Roll 4d6, drop the lowest. In order.
Then, reroll one of your ability scores, using the better of the two results.
Then, switch two of your ability scores.

Optional: You can reroll your ability scores up to two times for free, but you must discard your previous results. You get a free reroll if your modifiers add up to +2 or less, or if no ability score is 15 or higher. Once you've used all your free rerolls, you can earn additional rerolls by using your rolled stats to create an NPC for the DM (name + race + class + background + assigned proficiencies, spells).

Both point buy and regular rolling (not in order) tend to produce cookie-cutter builds, while this method does not. You could end up with a highly unusual ability score spread that isn't optimized for you class. That said, unlike rolling in order, you're almost guarantied to get at least one good ability score for your class (due to reroll and switch).

[Laserlight]

If you like rolling but don't want one player to have higher stats, have everyone roll a set, then let anyone use any set.

[AvvyR]

With new players, you're probably best off with standard array to keep it simple. Or you can select a small number of equivalent arrays and have them choose from one of those. Point buy can work well too, but you might have to sit with new players and help them along some.

I always heavily recommend against rolling. It's been problematic in every edition, but it breaks 5e clean in half. I'm convinced the only reason it's still a main option is because it's a D&D tradition, and the veterans expect it. Especially with new players, rolling has far more potential to unravel your game than enhance it.

[bid]

I'm curious about peoples' preferred method of determining attributes scores?
Always point buy.

Ignore racial stats and give them 16 16 14 10 10 8, maybe with a choice of 16 14 14 12 10 10. That keeps it simple for new players.

If you want some randomness, roll 4d6 to pick which stats are higher (1=Str, ... 6=Cha).

[JoeJ]

For new players I would absolutely recommend against point buy. That's just adding unnecessary complication for people who are still trying to learn the rules, and are almost certainly more interested at this point in playing a character than in building one.

[Speely]

If you like rolling but don't want one player to have higher stats, have everyone roll a set, then let anyone use any set.

Ahh! I came in here to say that I was going to try this idea out for the first time in my next campaign, and you beat me to it. I really like this because it allows all the players to start out balanced with each other (in regard to Abilities, at least,) but preserves the excitement of rolling.

Possible related method I am toying with:

Everyone rolls 4d6 6 times and writes down the results as per standard method. Anyone can choose which set of results they want to use, as per your method.

Caveat: anyone who uses the highest point result cannot gain Inspiration in the game, and their fumbles are more severe (for those who use tables, which I do, it could just be a +20% shift toward "bad" results.) Those who choose the lowest set gain Inspiration after any rest or session start, and gain Inspiration when rolling a natural 20 for any skill check, attack roll, or saving throw. Those who choose any other (middle) set operate normally.

The idea is that less-naturally-gifted characters might be more readily-inspired by the others, while the naturals are less likely to look outward for Inspiration because they have a stronger sense of agency via their own abilities. Those in the middle are a mix... not as easily inspired as the lowbies, but still open to it.

I am just toying with this idea, and if I ever decide to try it, it will be subject to MUCH further revision before I do, but you get the gist.

[TheFryingPen]

So here's one thing I came up with and will suggest to my DM after the next TPK:


Every stat starts at 12.
Roll a number (thinking about 4 to 5) of d4 and give them a fancy name like "Fate shifter dice" for flavor.
Once for every single result of these dice, you can increase one ability score by that number while decreasing another by the same number. You cannot increase an ability score multiply times. You cannot decrease an ability score multiply times.

For more extreme results you could also use d6 as dice. And/or allow stacking multiply increases and decreases (with a min and max value to your liking). I kept this one close to the limit given by the standard array.

And if the players like to, they could use these "shifts" as sort of backstory-hooks to explain why in particular a character emphasized one attribute over the other.

I think this system would combine what people most like about the others: randomness from rolling, the choice of distribution (point by) and the same baseline (overall stat score) from the standard array. Of course not without compromise, but it's still rather simple.

I personally like point by and stat array because they ensure everyone starts at the same level. I also appreciate the randomness and funny concepts that can be achieved / enhanced by rolls, but it is so easy for someone to feel screwed by this. Taking best of's or allowing re-rolling makes it less likely to happen, but it still happens. From my experience, trying to do "fair" rolls turns into a whole lot of if's and "when that" rules, exceptions and discussion.

I think high starting stat differences can really deteriorate fun, especially in 5e when playing with feats. If you don't have high enough main stats you'll feel like you have to take the ASI over feats in all the early levels. Even if you actually wanted to deepen your character concept and style with feats.

[ciarannihill]

Wow there are a lot of very interesting methods people have to generate stats!

I saw a few other novel ones that I won't use for this campaign, but that seem like fun ways to generate stats for one shots and such:

5d4 - generates a similar average to 4d6 drop the lowest, but the total trends more heavily towards the average.
2+1d4+1d6+1d8 - generates the same average as 5d4, but evens out the curve slightly. Seems kind of fun to me, just based on rolling different types of dice.
Set 3 stats to 5 and set 3 stats to 10, then roll and add 1d6 to each stat in order - A middle ground between rolling in order and placing stats, you place a "base" value, which is the modified by the roll in order.

[WhiteWolf]

For the games I DM, I pick a number of ability score points and let the players divide them up between their abilities however they like. For the average game I use 72, which when split evenly results in a 12 in everything. The only other rule I use is that after racial modifiers your score can't exceed 20, which is similar to RAW but allows you to get a 20 in an attribute even if you don't get a bonus to it from your race.

For higher or lower powered campaigns I can adjust the starting points to between 60-90. This can either encourage or dissuade the use of feats by changing the importance of ASIs but I always allow feats as I think they add another mechanism for customising characters and adding flavour/unique abilities.