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View Full Version : Player Help How do you deal with a fellow player going too far?



Cj304
2018-06-25, 01:41 PM
So, I'm not going to name anyone, or dedicate a thread to whining, but I could use some advice on dealing with a fellow DnD player who some of us have been having issues with.

This fellow player, I would even call him a friend outside of dnd. I met him a few years ago when I joined a dnd group through another friend of mine. I'm told that they had been playing with him for years in other campaigns, and he always brought out fun characters who had a quirk that he role played to a tee, and made everyone laugh.

Thing is, when I first met him, it was kinda like that. Then he switched his character out and brought out... F(Shortened version of their name) .

Artifacer, with something of a mix of homebrew and pathfinder for optimization. I mean, okay. Optimization can be fun, and it never hurts to have a strong party member. But it felt like it was taken too far sometimes. F wound up with a Knowledge score of +35, the same with UMD, both at level 9, multiple more feats thanks to a bloodline ability none of us were aware were options, a demon template without any of the negative weaknesses of the fact, and a patron in the form of a balor, all more or less for free. It was honestly a little exasperating the more and more F added on while the rest of us were playing normal characters.

Over the sessions, F.'s player developed a style of humor that always came at the expense of other players, mocking their morality alignments and our attempts to roleplay, cutting us off and stealing the spotlight more and more.

Spotlight stealing happens, I get that, it's a part of roleplay. But some of our members are getting shoved into corners more and more. Our attempts to decide what to do as a group are mostly ignored, and when we try and RP some actual plot development for our characters and their personal quests, F. always interrupts with some thing or other THEY were doing.

And then there's the effect on the plot at large. Our DM allowed F's player to pretty much rewrite the backstory of the whole continent multiple times behind our backs, there were demons suddenly in the capital because of offscreen actions we weren't asked input on, when we broached ideas for plot development we were told by F that they "wouldn't allow" that to happen, as it goes against the "Demon Overlord" and F is 'working for demons'.

Then recently F has developed a habit of wandering off and doing immensely plot significant activities alone and leaving us behind while we're trying to decide on a course of action. Suddenly, next thing you know, TWO COUNTRIES have been destroyed, most of our other characters plot lines have been derailed again, and now the party might have to fight something we didn't have to, AGAIN.

I get that DnD is wish-fufillment, and you just wanna have fun. You want to see what you can do. The one country being caught in a war between demons and elves was intellectually interesting. But there has to be RESPECT, right?

And we're not seeing any anymore. This isn't a story about one person, but F seems to be treating it as such, with us as background characters. You have to respect your fellow players and the DM when you play, and their choices. And you especially shouldn't look for ways to screw them over. Which F has.

So far, F actively caused two character deaths for other players, derailed the side-quests of many of us, has stolen the loot of the dead characters without consulting the rest of us about distribution or even the players of the said characters, plus there's the lack of respect towards our DM; ignoring DM rulings, overriding DM rulings, basically fast talking over our DM whenever he tries to place limits on F, actively not bringing his character sheet and just rolling his UMD and Knowledge checks for situations they really REALLY shouldn't apply, but making them do so through fast talking...

It's the disrespect for his fellow players and the DM that's hosting us that upsets me the most, I believe.

One of my fellow players has admitted to me that he's not enjoying the sessions anymore, simply because of F's player's treatment of him during them and his actions in the game.

This isn't limited to one campaign, either. I never lost a character to him, but he's actively screwed me over for fun three times in two campaigns, and derailed a third's campaign so thoroughly that the DM of that campaign DROPPED THE CAMPAIGN.

The thing is; this player is a friend. When we're not playing DND, he's a blast to hang out with, he has a fun sense of humor. I'm just not sure what to do about this?

I've tried to subtly ask him about what he's doing, about not breaking our campaign, he basically responded that his goal is to find a way to literally destroy this campaign world by the time we're done.

I'm just not sure what to do?

Is there any advice you have for me? Am I taking this too personally? I don't want to be that player who feels to over strongly and overreacts, but at the same time I feel like this has gone too far, and I have honestly no idea how to approach the matter without asking people to take sides, which is what I don't want to happen.

Any advice from people would be greatly appreciated.

MrSandman
2018-06-25, 02:12 PM
Is he aware that his behaviour destroys everyone else's fun? That would be a great place to start.

There are many things wrong with what you describe, but it all boils down to lack of respect and lack of accountability.

Regarding lack of respect, you guys need to plainly tell him that role-playing is not just about him and that your fun is as important as his.

Regarding lack of accountability, well the game master needs to use some accountability checkers, such as keeping a copy of each character sheet, not letting people do something that sounds iffy unless they be able to explain exactly how and why they can do it...

Basically you guys need to tell him that he is trampling over you and disrespecting you, and that's not cool. If he is truly a friend, he should care about you enough to try and find a way to play in which you all can have fun.

Segev
2018-06-25, 02:18 PM
F is likely to get defensive, even hostile, so when you do this, be sure to remain firm and united with the other players, but calm and in general ... well, treat it like an intervention. You're on his side. You don't want to attack him. But he needs to be aware of and acknowledge that it's a problem.

But talk to him. All of you, together. If the GM is not already aware of the problem, talk to him, too. Do so before you talk to F. The point is not to talk behind F's back, but to make sure you're all on the same page. You can even let F know that you and the others need to talk to him; don't keep this secret and don't spring it on him. But prepare with the others before having this discussion, because you all NEED to be on the same page, and need to all be braced for F to be angry. Braced so you do not become angry, yourselves. You can't let it become a shouting match, or a measurement of who's wrong and who's right.

F needs to understand that, even if he has perfectly good reasons for everything he's doing, it is causing a problem. Don't focus on blame. Focus on solutions. This will still involve what will seem to F to be attacks on him. Because he is causing the problem. But the solutions, if he works with you guys on them, need not exclude him.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-06-25, 02:44 PM
Sounds like your characters have ample justification to kill him. Just saying.

Keltest
2018-06-25, 03:25 PM
Sounds like your characters have ample justification to kill him. Just saying.

No. Don't do this. Out of character problems are to be solved exclusively out of character. Killing his character tells him that you are basically fine with continuing to play the game with him and engaging him on a game level, and doesn't isolate or deal with the actual issue: that he, the player is annoying the other players at the table.

AtlasSniperman
2018-06-25, 04:28 PM
Sounds like your characters have ample justification to kill him. Just saying.

From the description given, even if this wasn't terrible advice, I don't think F would let them kill him. He seems to have enough away over the GM that his character could be considered a parasitic DMPC.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-06-25, 05:00 PM
What I'm implicitly saying is that this sounds like a hopeless situation and you should burn the group to the ground over it and salt the earth. Kill his character.

Darth Ultron
2018-06-25, 05:11 PM
First, I might point that this guy is not your friend. Sure he is sort of a nice guy some times and you like him and all, but friend is going to far. A friend would not 'act up like this', and even if they 'accidentally' acted up somehow, all you would need to do is mention this and they would correct it and act 'like a friend' would.

It is a bit odd that the DM lets themselves be ignore and has no power or control....but, modern gamers, right?

If the players goal is to 'ruin games' and 'destroy game worlds', then what can you do? Ask him not to do that? I guess you could try....

Mr Beer
2018-06-25, 05:40 PM
Honestly this sounds like a DM problem as much as it is a player problem.

KillianHawkeye
2018-06-25, 06:42 PM
First of all, his character is ridiculous. He's cheating, plain and simple. Get everyone on your side and tell him that his character leaves the campaign, time to make a new character. One that fits the power level everyone else is playing at.

On the slim chance that he's just been getting carried away with an overpowered character, this might solve the problem.

More realistically, removing the character might not be enough. In that case, remove the player. If he can't play nice, he shouldn't be playing at all. Again, make sure everyone else agrees with you beforehand.

If you can't do any of the above, then leave the group. Try to get as many other reasonable players to leave with you, and you can all start a new game somewhere else.

Cj304
2018-06-27, 12:37 PM
Is he aware that his behaviour destroys everyone else's fun? That would be a great place to start.

There are many things wrong with what you describe, but it all boils down to lack of respect and lack of accountability.

Regarding lack of respect, you guys need to plainly tell him that role-playing is not just about him and that your fun is as important as his.

Regarding lack of accountability, well the game master needs to use some accountability checkers, such as keeping a copy of each character sheet, not letting people do something that sounds iffy unless they be able to explain exactly how and why they can do it...

Basically you guys need to tell him that he is trampling over you and disrespecting you, and that's not cool. If he is truly a friend, he should care about you enough to try and find a way to play in which you all can have fun.


F is likely to get defensive, even hostile, so when you do this, be sure to remain firm and united with the other players, but calm and in general ... well, treat it like an intervention. You're on his side. You don't want to attack him. But he needs to be aware of and acknowledge that it's a problem.

But talk to him. All of you, together. If the GM is not already aware of the problem, talk to him, too. Do so before you talk to F. The point is not to talk behind F's back, but to make sure you're all on the same page. You can even let F know that you and the others need to talk to him; don't keep this secret and don't spring it on him. But prepare with the others before having this discussion, because you all NEED to be on the same page, and need to all be braced for F to be angry. Braced so you do not become angry, yourselves. You can't let it become a shouting match, or a measurement of who's wrong and who's right.

F needs to understand that, even if he has perfectly good reasons for everything he's doing, it is causing a problem. Don't focus on blame. Focus on solutions. This will still involve what will seem to F to be attacks on him. Because he is causing the problem. But the solutions, if he works with you guys on them, need not exclude him.


First, I might point that this guy is not your friend. Sure he is sort of a nice guy some times and you like him and all, but friend is going to far. A friend would not 'act up like this', and even if they 'accidentally' acted up somehow, all you would need to do is mention this and they would correct it and act 'like a friend' would.

It is a bit odd that the DM lets themselves be ignore and has no power or control....but, modern gamers, right?

If the players goal is to 'ruin games' and 'destroy game worlds', then what can you do? Ask him not to do that? I guess you could try....

Thank you All for the advice.

I've tried broaching the topic a few times, but always subtly, so I'll try asking all of the other members of the campaign how they feel, before we decide if we need to talk to him as a group.

I believe that he is aware that he is in some way annoying us, we had a conversation of a similar vein the first time he caused a character death by screwing over the party for personal profit. I'm just not sure if he realizes the degree of our feelings on the matter. I'm going to ask him a little more directly next time I get a chance.

You are correct, this is going to be a sensitive matter, and I don't want this to be a fight, I want us all to go back to having fun and making jokes as we fight kobolds and snake men.

Hopefully, we can resolve this without a major argument.

Cj304
2018-06-27, 12:40 PM
Sounds like your characters have ample justification to kill him. Just saying.


No. Don't do this. Out of character problems are to be solved exclusively out of character. Killing his character tells him that you are basically fine with continuing to play the game with him and engaging him on a game level, and doesn't isolate or deal with the actual issue: that he, the player is annoying the other players at the table.

I will admit that I have considered the thought, but I agree that it would only add fuel to the fire. Player vs Player combat in a campaign is not a Pandora's Box that I want to open. It will just lead to a cycle of us ALL attacking each other, and that isn;t the kind of campaign we want to run.

But gosh, is it tempting sometimes.

Cj304
2018-06-27, 12:42 PM
First of all, his character is ridiculous. He's cheating, plain and simple. Get everyone on your side and tell him that his character leaves the campaign, time to make a new character. One that fits the power level everyone else is playing at.

On the slim chance that he's just been getting carried away with an overpowered character, this might solve the problem.

More realistically, removing the character might not be enough. In that case, remove the player. If he can't play nice, he shouldn't be playing at all. Again, make sure everyone else agrees with you beforehand.

If you can't do any of the above, then leave the group. Try to get as many other reasonable players to leave with you, and you can all start a new game somewhere else.

His character is super ridiculous.

I really would not prefer to leave the group, as we have all had some major fun together and I still consider F a friend, so I'm going to try and negotiate before this results in the party fracturing.

That being said, everyone will probably agree to a mass party wipe just to get rid of this character at this point, so we'll see how it goes.

Cj304
2018-06-27, 12:44 PM
I'd just like to thank everyone for their support and help with the reply's.

Quertus
2018-06-27, 01:52 PM
I... I'm probably going to give you horrible advice, but maybe someone else can see what I'm saying and give you something good?

Being me, I always look first at the GM when something has gone wrong. And, well, the GM - make that GMs, plural, apparently - allowing the player to just walk all over them and fast talk their way into things that don't make any sense by the rules? Yeah, you've got a GM problem.

When we had a player like this, I had a GM hand the game off to me, because they knew that I was a **** who wouldn't take any **** (while generally being nice and rules-lawyer-y about it, rather than being a **** about it). It worked out reasonably well.

But, if he's already done this with 3 campaigns, and has the goal to destroy campaigns? The player in question certainly sounds like he needs to learn some kind of lesson. IMO, you need to evaluate what you know of him, understand what it is that causes this behavior, and give him the appropriate lesson to teach him what he needs in order to become the type of person who doesn't do what he's doing.

Unfortunately, I don't know the player, so I can't be more specific than that. But I'm fairly sure that PvP - especially since he is a "superior opponent" - is not the correct answer.

Maybe he just really doesn't like gaming, and is trying to get y'all to do something else by ruining everyone's fun?

Mr Beer
2018-06-27, 05:26 PM
I... I'm probably going to give you horrible advice, but maybe someone else can see what I'm saying and give you something good?
<snip>



What you said is exactly right, it's what I would have said if I wasn't lazy. This is a DM problem. You need a DM who isn't a pushover.

I'd be talking to the other players first and then talking to the DM. It's possible he's letting problem player (PP) run all over him because PP wants it more and DM thinks it's OK and everyone is having fun. If it's clear that no-one except PP is having fun and they are prepared to say so (this is important) then maybe DM will fix the issue.

If it's a case of DM favouring PP because he likes him most and wants his buddy to lord it over everyone, it's not solvable with the current DM.

Same if the DM can't or won't man up and do his job.

If that's the case, I'd be starting my own campaigns minus PP and the DM.

Also OP, frankly PP sounds like he's one of those people that only likes RPGs when they are entirely about him and he gets to be a fulltime ****. I've played with people who are perfectly reasonable out of game but just can't help being ***** in game because they have life issues they feel the need to compensate for. You might have to accept that PP is great company except in RPGs and deal with it accordingly.

Hooligan
2018-06-30, 08:37 PM
Say nothing.
Do not acknowledge the player when you sit down at the table next session.
While making intense eye contact with him the entire time, assassinate his character and divide his possessions amongst the other group.
Do not look at the dice. Do not look at the other players. If you need something to do with your hands then shuffle through your character sheet & notes, but do not actually look at the notes.

daemonaetea
2018-07-01, 09:04 AM
As tempting as the "kill the character" solutions are, they would fail for the same reason you have a problem right now - the DM clearly likes favors F, enough so that they've catered the entire campaign to his whims. Whether they're just especially friendly, or the DM just is especially taken with F's ideas, the result is the same - the game you play, at the moment, revolves around F. That makes this especially troubling.

The problem is that talking to either F or the DM is unlikely to resolve this. Even if you convinced F to tone it down, the DM is still operating on the current planned path that you all hate. Even if you convince the DM to tone this down, it's likely to have F react negatively to a sudden cessation of the catering he's grown accustomed to.

So you'll need to resolve this with both parties, optimally by talking first to one, then the other. I'd recommend starting with the DM, as they are by far the biggest problem at the moment. The problem wasn't F's ideas, it was the DM going along with them. Make clear to the DM how you feel, possibly with another player or two with you. Do it calmly, without accusations, but make it clear that that this point you are no longer having fun with the game, as you no longer are an equal participant. The DM will quite likely throw up some token attention you've received, allude to vague plans to include you more in the future, or place blame on you for not being as involved as F. Be prepared to answer each of these.

Assuming you get the DM on board, you can either have him speak to F, though I'd have my doubts about that. Given how willing he was to throw in with F, I'm assuming any such conversation would just embitter both of them more, as they share complaints about how great everything was, and how everyone else is being selfish or otherwise ruining the fun. (I'm aware I'm being a bit pessimistic on these analysis, but that's kinda deliberate - hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that.) So talking to F yourselves would make it more personal, make it harder to just imagine you as an antagonist to the fun.

Some common arguments you may hear from F, and how to prepare for them:

"I'm just playing my character." Make it clear that you're not objecting to him playing his character. You're objecting to the outsize influence he has on the campaign, and the fact the rest of you are not important. How at this point the game is not about this party of heroes, but rather about his character and the flunkies he keeps around for some reason.
"You could make your characters stronger too." Make it clear that the strength he is aiming for is not in fact fun to the rest of you, and while you don't object to his character being strong, it is problematic for him to be so strong. Flatter him a bit! Make it clear you understand how much work he's put into it, but maybe you all just don't have the time, or system mastery, to match up to him. Compare it to a casual softball league where one side shows up with half the NY Yankees playing for them - no one's saying that they're cheating, just that maybe this particular matchup isn't a good match for the league.
"You could do more with the DM too." Make it clear that you don't in fact want this. You are all enjoying a collaborative game together. You don't want to reshape the world to fit your characters, because the fun is in doing that together. You don't want him to lack input on the game, you just think it'd be more fun for everyone if he did so along with the group. In fact, I'd probably emphasize group camaraderie for all these. Make it clear he's part of the group, everyone enjoys being around him, and they just want to emphasize that part of it.


That's not exhaustive or anything, just some common things that seem to come up in these situations, and how you might deal with them.

Last, before you do either of these things, decide on where the line is.

I'm going to be honest, I don't expect any of this to actually work. People are hard. Bad patterns are hard to fix. And people can be very resistant to change. That's not to say you shouldn't try, but you have to be realistic on your expectations. Going in, you need to know two things: 1. If things go as they are now, am I willing to keep playing? 2. If not, how much needs to change for me to stay?

That will make the discussions much easier. Not because you can threaten to quit, but because you'll know what you're fighting for. Are you willing to stick around if nothing changes? If yes, and you get heavy resistance to change, understand when silently suffering through the rest of the game is the best you'll manage. If no, you'll know what to argue the most about, where the discussions can't be quietly folded and need to move forward. That will allow you to go through this negotiation with the greatest chance of success.

If you do decide to quit, make it as non-confrontational as possible. Make it clear you're not treating yourself as a hostage, but instead as something that just happens. "I understand. I'm really sorry, but I'll be sitting out the rest of this game then. I'm just not able to enjoy myself in the current configuration, and I don't want that to impact the game you're trying to run. I hope you have a blast with the rest of it, and I'll be ready to jump back in when everyone starts something new."

If you don't quit, and things don't change enough, then after every session ask yourself this: Would I have had more fun with the past X hours doing something else I enjoy? Is my lack of enjoyment going to start negatively impacting my friendships? (I've had that one, we all would have been so much better off just quitting the game.) If so, reevaluate where you stand.

If you don't quit, and things get better? Congrats, hope the game goes great.