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Conners
2007-09-09, 06:55 AM
I have a character using a Falchion. My strategy revolves around hitting a lot of people, Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization and most importantly Improved Critical (considering it lowers my critical range to, 15?), are my main feats in the arsenal.
How good would you say this strategy works out? Also, do you have any tips on strategy?

Feel free to discuss the weapon and how it compares to other weapons.

Kaelaroth
2007-09-09, 06:57 AM
I think they look pretty damn cool.
Yet, my PHB is not to hand, so I cannot comment otherwise.

Dhavaer
2007-09-09, 06:59 AM
Weirdly, I was just reading a thread on the Wizards boards where someone did a mathematical breakdown of falchion vs. greatsword. With keen/improved crit., the falchion wielder needs 38 bonus damage to keep pace with the greatsword wielder. Difficult, but not impossible to get.

Zincorium
2007-09-09, 07:06 AM
The real reason that falchions fall well below greatswords or greataxes in the grand scheme of things is that so many things at high levels (and some at low) are simply immune to criticals, meaning that additional range of crits is meaningless and the additional average damage the greatsword or greataxe deals means they pull out ahead.

I personally like falchions, both the heavy scimitar in the PHB and the historical, one handed falchion. I tend to use them a lot. But I don't pretend they're superior to the other offerings out there.

Quietus
2007-09-09, 07:07 AM
Mechanical comparisons to greatswords aside, I like it. Greatswords strike me as the "civilized barbarian's" weapon - a huge honking hunk of metal with which to hew through one's foes, but it's still an actual sword. I associate falchions with weapons similar to the two-handed weapons that the orcs were using in the Lord of the Rings movies, very rough, but lots of bladeyness - perfect for use as a giant cleaving chunk of metal, less damage due to the roughness, but so many jagged edges make it far more likely you'll hack into someone's vitals.

Freshmeat
2007-09-09, 07:08 AM
Greatsword is technically better, but then again, I'd say GS is slightly above the curve anyway. There's a reason everyone takes it, after all.

The falchion is a pretty cool weapon though, and not much worse than the greatsword. If you like a change of pace, or need a different weapon for flavor reasons I highly recommend it.

Improved critical is the real kicker for Falchion, but keep in mind that you can only get it at a relatively high level (unless you can score a quick Keen enchantment). Estimated character level are things you might want to keep in mind when making your choice.

Right out of the box though, the Falchion deals 2 damage less than the greatsword, but criticals 1/20 more.
Yeah, pretty bad tradeoff.

Brawnspear
2007-09-09, 07:20 AM
There is another specific instance when the falchion has the best chance for down right awesomeness. And that is when using the relatively broken tome of battle. A chaotic crusader in a certain stance can reroll and add all max damage dice. Especially with imp crit on a falchion, that's a chance for some massive damage. Also, I concur that the falchion is just cool in general.

Akennedy
2007-09-09, 07:20 AM
In my campaigns, I allow the falchion to be weapon finessed, to try and attract players into using it. I also see the falchion to be more of an elegant weapon than savage. Looks like a flourish-y weapon to me..

Ted_Stryker
2007-09-09, 07:26 AM
I might go with a keen falchion instead of spending a feat on improved critical -- you should be able to afford it by the time your BAB gets high enough for you to qualify for improved crit.

Great Cleave is great against mooks, but once you start facing opponents that you can't drop with one swing, its utility is greatly reduced. It also ties up three feats, which is less of a problem for a fighter, but if you are another PC class, feat scarcity could be an issue.

lord_khaine
2007-09-09, 07:49 AM
its a misconseption that tome of battle is broken, there is nothing in there thats more powerfull than what you can find in the core books.

that aside, i would replace great cleave if i were you, its usualy a waste of time, only good when you are in melee combat with hordes of very weak opponents you can take down in hit.

Saph
2007-09-09, 07:55 AM
At very very very high levels (probably epic, although builds with cheesily high Strength scores can also qualify) the falchion becomes better than the greatsword, since the extra damage from a multiplied critical becomes so huge as to make the difference between 2d4 and 2d6 not very important. I think that's the 38 number that Dhavaer was quoting.

But for 95% of games, the greatsword's higher base damage makes it a better general weapon. On the other hand, there's something to be said for a bit of variety. It gets a little dull when every single fighter is using the same weapon.

- Saph

Freshmeat
2007-09-09, 08:01 AM
Correct. Great cleave is rarely all that useful. Depending on your meta it could be awesome though, if your DM loves to throw mooks at you.

However...hordes of enemies aren't all that frequent because it makes for long combat rounds, lots of rolling and lots of modifiers you have to keep track of (for example, after a slow, a glitterdust and a grease, try to keep note who is affected by which effect and how they may even affect each other).

Great cleave requires you to consistently kill more than two enemies in a single round. That's not very likely.
If it is the case however, chances are you'd win the battle easily anyway.

Alternatively, if they can be cleaved so easily, why doesn't the wizard just cast fireball? He'll have enough spell slots anyway, and you can spend your feat on something better. Preferably something that works well against bosses, rather than increase your skill at what, killing mooks? Seriously.
Verdict: Weak effect with a very narrow application.

Spiryt
2007-09-09, 08:04 AM
In my campaigns, I allow the falchion to be weapon finessed, to try and attract players into using it. I also see the falchion to be more of an elegant weapon than savage. Looks like a flourish-y weapon to me..

I think it would be kinda broken. There are weapons that are one or two handed (power attack) and can be used with weapon finesse. But they are exotic, just for that reason.

I have always seen "enchanced crit" as stronger than others. At slighty higher levels with greatsword you have possible 1-4 damage, but with keen falchion you have really often x2 attacks.


falchion to be more of an elegant weapon than savage.

Dunno, there were historical "falchion like" weapons, some guys are even doing them for sale (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_lut_10006.html), and there is nothing especially elegant in them. Devastating cuts, but of course handling and versality worse than "classic" straight blades.

From some reason there is common assumtion that everything that is curved or eastern must be more finesse, fast and generally "kung fu kapoof".

Kioran
2007-09-09, 08:24 AM
The Falchion is a savage and burtal, but relatively effective weapon - I like it, and besides, losing 2 damage might be a hassle, but due to all kinds of damage boni abounding, not a tragedy. And you still have good crits......

In fact, if you use Travesty of Blades (ToB), your class features make base damage almost a non-issue.

PlatinumJester
2007-09-09, 08:26 AM
Falchions are pretty decent considering they have a 25% critical chance with the Improved Critical feat.

Akennedy
2007-09-09, 09:35 AM
Falchions are pretty decent considering they have a 25% critical chance with the Improved Critical feat.

Well, 30%... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. So, 6 numbers, 5% each.. 6*5% = 30%

de-trick
2007-09-09, 09:52 AM
Falchion I had a paladin wield 1, he got a +1 to attack and damage for favored weapon, so was all good.

but anyways if yo try to compare weapons to different ones everyones going to be using the greatsword, so care about the fluff more than crunch for weapons.

I see Falchion more as a middle eastern weapon, I also wished they were finnessible, and able to use 1 handed(with a feat)

Spiryt
2007-09-09, 09:55 AM
I see Falchion more as a middle eastern weapon, I also wished they were finnessible, and able to use 1 handed(with a feat)

One handed falchion is called a scimitar...

Conners
2007-09-09, 09:57 AM
Hmmm..... It would seem that great cleave won't do me much good.... What about normal Cleave? Would it be better to keep that or toss it as well?

Spiryt
2007-09-09, 10:23 AM
Well, great cleave is going to be rarely any good, most experienced players also keep saying that Weapon Specialisation is a waste of feat.

I don't know what books does your GM allow/have, but things like this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Power_Critical,CW) would be more practical than Greater Cleave, even if no so good. Also Improved Trip is almost always good, aditional attacks against prone opponent, with so much critical chance...

Dullyanna
2007-09-09, 10:53 AM
Historically, falchions were essentially slightly over-sized meat cleavers, machetes, or butcher's knives. They're definitely not finessable, as they were designed to be heavy (They usually weighed about 2 pounds). Also, they were one-handed. Then again, this is DnD we're talking about, where drowning restores you to a stable condition if you're dying.

In an attempt to stay on topic, I'd say the weapon specializtion feats dpend on how nice your DM is. If he is, then you're sure to get a nifty falchion. If he's not, you might not even see a regular one during the campaign. Also, If you think you're going up against alot of humanoids, I suggest (DC 14) that you get either improved trip or improved disarm.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-09, 10:55 AM
Hmmm..... It would seem that great cleave won't do me much good.... What about normal Cleave? Would it be better to keep that or toss it as well?

Cleave is good because you weill always eventually drop a creature with damage, this gives you an extra attack when you finish off a creature. Great Cleave isn't as useful because you would need to finish off your next opponent with a single shot of the cleave attack.

I think that there needs to be an agreement between the players and the DM as to the nature of the adventures. In theory, the PC's should be able to reject plot hooks that wouldn't be favorable for the characters. Thus, if a PC loads up on some technique/specialty, it stands to reason that they'll go for that sort of adventure. Whereas, if the DM decides to screw the PC and not provide a situation where that PC can shine, don't be surprised when the Player feels unsatisfied or rejects the plot hook.

That cuts the other direction too. If a PC over specializes, don't be surprised if your specialty doesn't come up naturally, or you have to actively seek out adventures to fill your role.

ocato
2007-09-09, 10:59 AM
Well, my old DM house-ruled that any two handed weapon should be able to be one handed with the exotic weapon proficiency, not just the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe. I didn't care for it, but then when DM duty shifted he played a fighter with two Falchions who crit so much that it wasn't even a game any more. Once DM status shifted to me, that rule was revoked after great debate.

The moral of the story? When playing pass the DM hat, just make all major rulings/house rule rulings communal or not at all.

Zim
2007-09-09, 11:05 AM
Any chance of you using a large or larger falchion? That would be super hurty. Combine that with charge-based feats and you have a potential for lots of damage!

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-09-09, 11:22 AM
In the grand scheme of things...

the 2 possible max damage ye get from a Greatsword is not something to write home about. When it gets down to it... ye can always find things to crit, or help with critting.

Ghost Touch/Ghost Strike (Synergy stuff from the Magic Item Compendium): Can hit incorp. undead like anything and can crit undeads

Greater Demolition Crystal: 12,000 GP for the ability to overcome DR, crit, and deal extra damage to Constructs. That means ye can spend the cash for a Cold Iron or Alchemical Silver Falchion, and still take out the constructs that the DM throws at ye. Also in the MIC.

If ye are a 4th level fighter, or a 6th level warblade, ye can take Weapon Spec, if ye are so inclined (I would be aiming towards melee weapon Mastery [slashing] at that point anyway).

Your problems are going to come from Elementals. But a banishment or dismissal spell could work for them. =)

Matthew
2007-09-09, 11:32 AM
In my campaigns, I allow the falchion to be weapon finessed, to try and attract players into using it. I also see the falchion to be more of an elegant weapon than savage. Looks like a flourish-y weapon to me..



Dunno, there were historical "falchion like" weapons, some guys are even doing them for sale (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_lut_10006.html), and there is nothing especially elegant in them. Devastating cuts, but of course handling and versality worse than "classic" straight blades.

From some reason there is common assumtion that everything that is curved or eastern must be more finesse, fast and generally "kung fu kapoof".


Historically, falchions were essentially slightly over-sized meat cleavers, machetes, or butcher's knives. They're definitely not finessable, as they were designed to be heavy (They usually weighed about 2 pounds). Also, they were one-handed. Then again, this is DnD we're talking about, where drowning restores you to a stable condition if you're dying.

A lot depends on what you think a D&D Falchion is supposed to represent in the 'real' world. The design mentality behind 3e was to explicitly not create weapons with exact real world equivalents, but to some degree there are always going to be similarities (particularly when they use 'real world' terminology).

The difference between a straight blade and curved blade tends to be exaggerated. One is not intrinsically more 'finessable' than the other; a curved blade will generally chop better and a straight blade will generally thrust better, but the difference is not very great.

A D&D Falchion can be a big meat cleaver type thing or it can be an elegantly balanced blade, it doesn't really matter, but I wouldn't recommend equating any D&D Weapon with an exact real world equivalent. In D&D, a Falchion is a designation for a Two Handed Single Edged Sword.

I imagine it looking something like this: The Knecht (http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/knecht/)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-09, 11:43 AM
I gather that the numbers are better on a Keen Greatsword than a Keen Falchion...but I have a question.

What if, thanks to a rather obscure Prestige Class, I could automatically confirm all crits, explicitly including with weapons modified by Keen or Improved Crit?* How does this change the math? Is a Greatsword still mechanically better?

*Actually, this only works on Smite Evil attacks, but I'm curious in the abstract. And if you're curious where this is coming from, it's the Fist of Raziel from the BoED.

Matthew
2007-09-09, 11:48 AM
I did a lot of Maths to work this out once, but I think Yakk and Peregrine came up with a better formula for it. Here's some basic stuff:

+0 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 5.5 = 1,980) + (1 x 5.5 = 5.5) + (19 x 22 = 418)] = 2,403.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 6.5 = 2,340) + (1 x 6.5 = 6.5) + (19 x 19.5 = 370.5)] = 2,717
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 6.5 = 2,210) + (2 x 6.5 = 13) + (38 x 13 = 494)] = 2,717
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 5.5 = 1,760) + (3 x 5.5 = 16.5) + (57 x 11 = 627)] = 2,403.5

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 5.5 = 1,980) + (1 x 5.5 = 5.5) + (19 x 22 = 418)] = 2,403.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 6.5 = 2,340) + (1 x 6.5 = 6.5) + (19 x 19.5 = 370.5)] = 2,717
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 6.5 = 2,210) + (2 x 6.5 = 13) + (38 x 13 = 494)] = 2,717
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 5.5 = 1,760) + (3 x 5.5 = 16.5) + (57 x 11 = 627)] = 2,403.5

3.
1D10 20/x4 [(340 x 5.5 = 1,870) + (2 x 5.5 = 11) + (18 x 22 = 396)] = 2,277
1D12 20/x3 [(340 x 6.5 = 2,210) + (2 x 6.5 = 13) + (18 x 19.5 = 351)] = 2,574
1D12 19-20/x2 [(320 x 6.5 = 2,080) + (4 x 6.5 = 26) + (36 x 13 = 468)] = 2,574
1D10 18-20/x2 [(300 x 5.5 = 1,650) + (6 x 5.5 = 33) + (54 x 11 = 594)] = 2,277

4.
1D10 20/x4 [(320 x 5.5 = 1,760) + (3 x 5.5 = 16.5) + (17 x 22 = 374)] = 2,150.5
1D12 20/x3 [(320 x 6.5 = 2,080) + (3 x 6.5 = 19.5) + (17 x 19.5 = 331.5)] = 2,431
1D12 19-20/x2 [(300 x 6.5 = 1,950) + (6 x 6.5 = 39) + (34 x 13 = 442)] = 2,431
1D10 18-20/x2 [(280 x 5.5 = 1,540) + (9 x 5.5 = 49.5) + (51 x 11 = 561)] = 2,150.5

5.
1D10 20/x4 [(300 x 5.5 = 1,650) + (4 x 5.5 = 22) + (16 x 22 = 352)] = 2,024
1D12 20/x3 [(300 x 6.5 = 1,950) + (4 x 6.5 = 26) + (16 x 19.5 = 312)] = 2,288
1D12 19-20/x2 [(280 x 6.5 = 1,820) + (8 x 6.5 = 52) + (32 x 13 = 416)] = 2,288
1D10 18-20/x2 [(260 x 5.5 = 1,430) + (12 x 5.5 = 66) + (48 x 11 = 528)] = 2,024

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 5.5 = 1,540) + (5 x 5.5 = 27.5) + (15 x 22 = 330)] = 1,897.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 6.5 = 1,820) + (5 x 6.5 = 32.5) + (15 x 19.5 = 292.5)] = 2,145
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 6.5 = 1,690) + (10 x 6.5 = 65) + (30 x 13 = 390)] = 2,145
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 5.5 = 1,320) + (15 x 5.5 = 82.5) + (45 x 11 = 495)] = 1,897.5

7.
1D10 20/x4 [(260 x 5.5 = 1,430) + (6 x 5.5 = 33) + (14 x 22 = 308)] = 1,771
1D12 20/x3 [(260 x 6.5 = 1,690) + (6 x 6.5 = 39) + (14 x 19.5 = 273)] = 2,002
1D12 19-20/x2 [(240 x 6.5 = 1,560) + (12 x 6.5 = 78) + (28 x 13 = 364)] = 2,002
1D10 18-20/x2 [(220 x 5.5 = 1,210) + (18 x 5.5 = 99) + (42 x 11 = 462)] = 1,771

8.
1D10 20/x4 [(240 x 5.5 = 1,320) + (7 x 5.5 = 38.5) + (13 x 22 = 286)] = 1644.5
1D12 20/x3 [(240 x 6.5 = 1,560) + (7 x 6.5 = 45.5) + (13 x 19.5 = 253.5)] = 1,859
1D12 19-20/x2 [(220 x 6.5 = 1,430) + (14 x 6.5 = 91) + (26 x 13 = 338)] = 1,859
1D10 18-20/x2 [(200 x 5.5 = 1,100) + (21 x 5.5 = 115.5) + (39 x 11 = 429)] = 1,644.5

9.
1D10 20/x4 [(220 x 5.5 = 1,210) + (8 x 5.5 = 44) + (12 x 22 = 264)] = 1,518
1D12 20/x3 [(220 x 6.5 = 1,430) + (8 x 6.5 = 52) + (12 x 19.5 = 234)] = 1,716
1D12 19-20/x2 [(200 x 6.5 = 1,300) + (16 x 6.5 = 104) + (24 x 13 = 312)] = 1,716
1D10 18-20/x2 [(180 x 5.5 = 990) + (24 x 5.5 = 132) + (36 x 11 = 396)] = 1,518

10.
1D10 20/x4 [(200 x 5.5 = 1,100) + (9 x 5.5 = 49.5) + (11 x 22 = 242)] = 1,391.5
1D12 20/x3 [(200 x 6.5 = 1,300) + (9 x 6.5 = 58.5) + (11 x 19.5 = 214.5)] = 1,573
1D12 19-20/x2 [(180 x 6.5 = 1,170) + (18 x 6.5 = 117) + (22 x 13 = 286)] = 1,573
1D10 18-20/x2 [(160 x 5.5 = 880) + (27 x 5.5 = 148.5) + (33 x 11 = 363)] = 1,391.5

11.
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 5.5 = 990) + (10 x 5.5 = 55) + (10 x 22 = 220)] = 1,265
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 6.5 = 1170) + (10 x 6.5 = 65) + (10 x 19.5 = 195)] = 1,430
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 6.5 = 1040) + (20 x 6.5 = 130) + (20 x 13 = 260)] = 1,430
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 5.5 = 770) + (30 x 5.5 = 165) + (30 x 11 = 330)] = 1,265

12.
1D10 20/x4 [(160 x 5.5 = 880) + (11 x 5.5 = 60.5) + (9 x 22 = 198)] = 1,138.5
1D12 20/x3 [(160 x 6.5 = 1,040) + (11 x 6.5 = 71.5) + (9 x 19.5 = 175.5)] = 1,287
1D12 19-20/x2 [(140 x 6.5 = 910) + (22 x 6.5 = 143) + (18 x 13 = 234)] = 1,287
1D10 18-20/x2 [(120 x 5.5 = 660) + (33 x 5.5 = 181.5) + (27 x 11 = 297)] = 1138.5

13.
1D10 20/x4 [(140 x 5.5 = 770) + (12 x 5.5 = 66) + (8 x 22 = 176)] = 1,012
1D12 20/x3 [(140 x 6.5 = 910) + (12 x 6.5 = 78) + (8 x 19.5 = 156)] = 1,144
1D12 19-20/x2 [(120 x 6.5 = 780) + (24 x 6.5 = 156) + (16 x 13 = 208)] = 1,144
1D10 18-20/x2 [(100 x 5.5 = 550) + (36 x 5.5 = 198) + (24 x 11 = 264)] = 1,012

14.
1D10 20/x4 [(120 x 5.5 = 660) + (13 x 5.5 = 71.5) + (7 x 22 = 154)] = 885.5
1D12 20/x3 [(120 x 6.5 = 780) + (13 x 6.5 = 84.5) + (7 x 19.5 = 136.5)] = 1,001
1D12 19-20/x2 [(100 x 6.5 = 650) + (26 x 6.5 = 169) + (14 x 13 = 182)] = 1,001
1D10 18-20/x2 [(80 x 5.5 = 440) + (39 x 5.5 = 214.5) + (21 x 11 = 231)] = 885.5

15.
1D10 20/x4 [(100 x 5.5 = 550) + (14 x 5.5 = 77) + (6 x 22 = 132)] = 759
1D12 20/x3 [(100 x 6.5 = 650) + (14 x 6.5 = 91) + (6 x 19.5 = 117)] = 858
1D12 19-20/x2 [(80 x 6.5 = 520) + (28 x 6.5 = 182) + (12 x 13 = 156)] = 858
1D10 18-20/x2 [(60 x 5.5 = 330) + (42 x 5.5 = 231) + (18 x 11 = 198)] = 759

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 5.5 = 440) + (15 x 5.5 = 82.5) + (5 x 22 = 110)] = 632.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 6.5 = 520) + (15 x 6.5 = 97.5) + (5 x 19.5 = 97.5)] = 715
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 6.5 = 390) + (30 x 6.5 = 195) + (10 x 13 = 130)] = 715
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 5.5 = 220) + (45 x 5.5 = 247.5) + (15 x 11 = 165)] = 632.5

17.
1D10 20/x4 [(60 x 5.5 = 330) + (16 x 5.5 = 88) + (4 x 22 = 88)] = 506
1D12 20/x3 [(60 x 6.5 = 390) + (16 x 6.5 = 104) + (4 x 19.5 = 78)] = 572
1D12 19-20/x2 [(40 x 6.5 = 260) + (32 x 6.5 = 208) + (8 x 13 = 104)] = 572
1D10 18-20/x2 [(20 x 5.5 = 110) + (48 x 5.5 = 264) + (12 x 11 = 132)] = 506

18.
1D10 20/x4 [(40 x 5.5 = 220) + (17 x 5.5 = 93.5) + (3 x 22 = 66)] = 379.5
1D12 20/x3 [(40 x 6.5 = 260) + (17 x 6.5 = 110.5) + (3 x 19.5 = 58.5)] = 429
1D12 19-20/x2 [(20 x 6.5 = 130) + (34 x 6.5 = 221) + (6 x 13 = 78)] = 429
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (51 x 5.5 = 280.5) + (9 x 11 = 99)] = 379.5

19.
1D10 20/x4 [(20 x 5.5 = 110) + (18 x 5.5 = 99) + (2 x 22 = 44)] = 253
1D12 20/x3 [(20 x 6.5 = 130) + (18 x 6.5 = 117) + (2 x 19.5 = 39)] = 286
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 6.5 = 0) + (36 x 6.5 = 234) + (4 x 13 = 52)] = 286
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (36 x 5.5 = 198) + (4 x 11 = 44)] = 242

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (19 x 5.5 = 104.5) + (1 x 22 = 22)] = 126.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 6.5 = 0) + (19 x 6.5 = 123.5) + (1 x 19.5 = 19.5)] = 143
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 6.5 = 0) + (19 x 6.5 = 123.5) + (1 x 13 = 13)] = 136.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (19 x 5.5 = 104.5) + (1 x 11 = 11)] = 115.5


Average Damage = (126.5 x 209 =26,438.5) / (8,000) = 3.3048125
Average Damage = (143 x 209 = 29,887) / (8,000) = 3.735875
Average Damage = 136.5 + (143 x 208 =) / (8,000) = 3.7350625
Average Damage = 115.5 + 242 + (126.5 x 206 = ) / 8,000 = 3.3020625

+30 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

11.
2D4 19-20/x4 [(160 x 25 = 4,000) + (20 x 25 = 500) + (20 x 100 = 2,000)] = 6,500
1D10 19-20/x4 [(160 x 25.5 = 4,080) + (20 x 25.5 = 510) + (20 x 102 = 2,040)] = 6,630
1D12 19-20/x3 [(160 x 26.5 = 4,240) + (20 x 26.5 = 530) + (20 x 79.5 = 1,590)] = 6,360
2D6 19-20/x3 [(160 x 27 = 4,320) + (20 x 27 = 540) + (20 x 81 = 1,620) = 6,480
2D6 17-20/x2 [(120 x 27 = 3,240) + (40 x 27 = 1,080) + (40 x 54 = 2,160)] = 6,480
1D12 17-20/x2 [(120 x 26.5 = 3,180) + (40 x 26.5 = 1,060) + (40 x 53 = 2,120)] = 6,360
1D10 15-20/x2 [(80 x 25.5 = 2,040) + (60 x 25.5 = 1,530) + (60 x 51 = 3,060)] = 6,630
2D4 15-20/x2 [(80 x 25 = 2,000) + (60 x 25 = 1,500) + (60 x 50 = 3,000)] = 6,500

11.
2D4 19-20/x4 [(160 x 35 = 5,600) + (20 x 35 = 700) + (20 x 140 = 2800)] = 9,100
1D10 19-20/x4 [(160 x 35.5 = 5,680) + (20 x 35.5 = 710) + (20 x 142 = 2,840)] = 9,230
1D12 19-20/x3 [(160 x 36.5 = 5,840) + (20 x 36.5 = 730) + (20 x 109.5 = 2,190)] = 8,760
2D6 19-20/x3 [(160 x 37 = 5,920) + (20 x 37 = 740) + (20 x 111 = 2,220) = 8,880
2D6 17-20/x2 [(120 x 37 = 4,440) + (40 x 37 = 1,480) + (40 x 74 = 2,960)] = 8,880
1D12 17-20/x2 [(120 x 36.5 = 4,380) + (40 x 36.5 = 1,460) + (40 x 73 = 2,920)] = 8,760
1D10 15-20/x2 [(80 x 35.5 = 2,840) + (60 x 35.5 = 2,130) + (60 x 71 = 4,260)] = 9,230
2D4 15-20/x2 [(80 x 35 = 2,800) + (60 x 35 = 2,100) + (60 x 70 = 4,200)] = 9,100

You can probably extrapolate from there.

If not, try looking here for the discussion: Custom Weapon Builder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31817&page=3)

Basically, there is a damage threshold where one overtakes the other.

Freshmeat
2007-09-09, 12:00 PM
In the grand scheme of things...

the 2 possible max damage ye get from a Greatsword is not something to write home about. When it gets down to it... ye can always find things to crit, or help with critting.

True, but not every campaign goes into high levels. I'd say that before keen/improved critical greatsword outweighs the falchion, at which point it only becomes about equal.
In most situations, the 2 damage (which is not solely '2 possible max damage', but rather '2 extra damage per hit, on average') is still nothing to dismiss so easily. Sure, considering power attack and a 1.5x strength modifier it's not like the greatsword-wielder will completely outshine the falchion-wielder, but nonetheless, the greatsword-wielder will deal more damage.

Given the cost for a mere +1 enchantment (not to mention further ones), I'd say a quick +2 damage by simply choosing another base weapon is nothing to scoff at.
Sure, these +1 weapons also give +1 to your attack bonus, but that effect takes up only a small portion in the price (compare it to the cost of masterwork weapons, for example).

Iku Rex
2007-09-09, 12:06 PM
Weirdly, I was just reading a thread on the Wizards boards where someone did a mathematical breakdown of falchion vs. greatsword. With keen/improved crit., the falchion wielder needs 38 bonus damage to keep pace with the greatsword wielder. Difficult, but not impossible to get.That doesn't seem right. :smallconfused:

The average damage on hit for a keen greatsword is (7+bonus damage)*1.2. The average damage on hit for a keen falchion is (5+bonus damage)*1.3. (Provided you hit with a roll of 15 or better.)

They deal the same average damage on a hit with +19 bonus damage. If you don't have keen/improved crit the falchion is better from +38 (edit: or rather, equal at exactly +39), so that's probably what you remember (edit: or not).

John Campbell
2007-09-09, 07:00 PM
Great Cleave is great against mooks, but once you start facing opponents that you can't drop with one swing, its utility is greatly reduced. It also ties up three feats, which is less of a problem for a fighter, but if you are another PC class, feat scarcity could be an issue.

That's not quite fair... Power Attack is a good feat in its own right (especially for two-handed fighters), and even Cleave has more utility than just providing a path to Great Cleave.

Though not enough, really. I regret taking Cleave. It's been useful once or twice, but that's not nearly enough for what it cost. I came to my senses before taking Great Cleave, and I've never been in a fight where having it would've done me any good whatsoever. But I have absolutely no regrets about taking Power Attack, especially not after the fight where I made it into three digits with damage from a single blow. (Full Power Attack, crit, x3 two-handed axe. Poor troll never even knew what hit him.)


One handed falchion is called a scimitar...

Only in D&D.

Talya
2007-09-09, 07:18 PM
For all your curved blade-loving goodness, here's some additional warm-fuzzies from Sandstorm:

Great Scimitar: The scimitar's answer to the bastard sword. It's martial to weild two-handed, exotic to weild one-handed. 1d8, 18-20/x2.

Great Falcion: Exotic two-hander. 1d12, 18-20/x2.

Conners
2007-09-10, 04:25 AM
For all your curved blade-loving goodness, here's some additional warm-fuzzies from Sandstorm:

Great Scimitar: The scimitar's answer to the bastard sword. It's martial to weild two-handed, exotic to weild one-handed. 1d8, 18-20/x2.

Great Falcion: Exotic two-hander. 1d12, 18-20/x2.

Wow, that great falchion sounds perfect! Can you please tell me the price of it so I can change my character's normal falcion into one?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-10, 05:55 AM
Hah. Great Falchion solves the base damage problem (mostly. 2d6 is still slightly better than 1d12), and can still be brought to 15-20/x2.

Essentially, the difference between it and a Greatsword is a feat and 10% Critical chance. Worth it? Depends on how feat-intensive your build is, probably.

Then again...+19 bonus damage to equalize the power curves is not hard to get between Strength, Power Attack, enhancements, and various buffs. +38 was less easy, but apparently that was wrong.

For the feat-hungry Paladin build that caused my interest in this thread, I'll probably stick with the Falchion. On a smite, with the right buffs, against stuff close to his CR, he'll probably be able to get +18 damage just from Power Attack and still hit on a ten or better.

Vhaidara
2007-09-10, 06:22 AM
Falchion ftw. However, it has a secret weakness: undead and constructs. My uncle pulled these on my dad's crit based fighters, and they could do squat. A scimitar for one and a rapier for the other. Immune to crits, and these guys will die.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-10, 06:34 AM
Cleave is pretty much only useful for Frenzied Berserker. Great Cleave is only useful for Overwhelming Critical and Devastating Critical. Both of which are Epic(and spellcasters win the game at that time). Overwhelming Critical should really be brought down to non-Epic levels, and not require Cleave(seriously, what, do you hit through the opponent so hard that you smack the other guy? I mean yeah, that's what a Cleave is, but still...), for what it does(+1d6 damage per multiplier, less 1d6).

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 07:30 AM
Only in D&D.

Ugh...


I know, that only in D&D, but now we are just arguing about names.

D&D falchion isn't medieval falchion, it's some two handed scimitar with major part of mass concetrated near the end. (Look at the PHB illustration).

I don't know if such strange things indeed existed, but they'r rooted in popular culture, (RH: prince of thieves....) and I suppose that eastern guys also had some two handed swords.

If you want medieval falchion in D&D use scimitar or even longsword stats and tell everyone how it looks and cuts.

I just didn't know why somebody would want to make one certain two handed weapon one handed...

Dausuul
2007-09-10, 07:48 AM
Weirdly, I was just reading a thread on the Wizards boards where someone did a mathematical breakdown of falchion vs. greatsword. With keen/improved crit., the falchion wielder needs 38 bonus damage to keep pace with the greatsword wielder. Difficult, but not impossible to get.

I think they left out Improved Crit.

The way the D&D damage system is set up, a weapon with a crit range of X numbers adds X/20 to the weapon's average damage output*. So, for instance, a greatsword's normal crit range (19-20) adds 2/20, or +0.1, to the damage output. With Improved Crit (17-20), that becomes 4/20, or +0.2. Similarly, the falchion adds +0.15 without Improved Crit, or +0.3 with.

Thus, if D is your damage bonus, a falchion with imp crit inflicts an average of 1.3 x (5+D), while a greatsword with imp crit inflicts an average of 1.2 x (7+D). That means the break-even point happens at D = 19:

1.3 x (5+19) = 1.3 x 24 = 31.2
1.2 x (7+19) = 1.2 x 26 = 31.2

A damage bonus of +19 requires a little optimization, but is certainly quite manageable for a mid-level melee warrior. (Tome of Battle actually makes the greatsword more attractive, since ToB maneuver damage doesn't generally multiply on crits.)

* An exception to this is if you're attacking something with an AC so high that you can miss on a roll that would normally be within your crit range. For instance, if you're wielding a falchion and have a +12 attack bonus, and your target has an AC of 31, you miss on a roll of 18 even though that's in your crit range; this will reduce the "crit bonus" accordingly. But if you've got a +12 and your opponent's AC is 31, you've got bigger problems than worrying about whether you hit the right break-point between a falchion and a greatsword.

Edit: Dang ninjas.

Person_Man
2007-09-10, 08:12 AM
I've done the math a bunch of times (I'm a statistician, and I get bored). In general, you want:

1) A high damage weapon.
2) A high crit multiplier.
3) A high crit range.

In that order, without wasting feats. High damage is preferable to everything else because it's reliable. It occurs 100% of the time that you hit. The high crit multiplier and range are mathematically the same for low AC enemies. But for high AC enemies, the high crit multiplier is superior, thus making the high crit multiplier superior.

If you're dying to use a falchion, buy the Tome of Battle and use the Blood in the Water stance. It gives you a cumulative +1 to hit and damage every time your crit. Makes using a falchion worth while in standard combat, though its still sub-optimal when you're in a boss battle.

Having said that, I greatly prefer having reach compared to a few extra points of damage, because it usually gives me extra attacks via various feats. So my favorite weapons are the lance and guisarme.

Saph
2007-09-10, 10:05 AM
I've done the math a bunch of times (I'm a statistician, and I get bored). In general, you want:

1) A high damage weapon.
2) A high crit multiplier.
3) A high crit range.

In that order, without wasting feats.

No argument about number 1), but shouldn't crit range rank higher than crit multiplier? With the high crit multiplier weapons, there's a very high chance of overkilling your target, particularly if your damage is good already. If you're using something like a scythe, it's practically guaranteed that when you finally crit a good part of the damage is going to be wasted.

- Saph

Dausuul
2007-09-10, 10:09 AM
I've done the math a bunch of times (I'm a statistician, and I get bored). In general, you want:

1) A high damage weapon.
2) A high crit multiplier.
3) A high crit range.

In that order, without wasting feats. High damage is preferable to everything else because it's reliable. It occurs 100% of the time that you hit. The high crit multiplier and range are mathematically the same for low AC enemies. But for high AC enemies, the high crit multiplier is superior, thus making the high crit multiplier superior.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. The real question is how much benefit you're getting from each. If you're averaging 60 damage per hit, as a high-level melee fighter might well be, +2 to your crit range is equivalent to +6 to your damage (on average, and assuming the enemy is not crit-immune). So if you're trying to decide between, say, Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization, that's something to keep in mind.

Moreover, whether high crit multiplier or high threat range is better depends on what you're fighting. Remember that a high crit multiplier increases the likelihood of blow-through damage (that is, damage that exceeds the minimum to drop an enemy). The high crit multiplier is better versus a tough foe with a high AC; the high threat range is better versus mooks with low AC and relatively low hit points.

Of course, if you fight a lot of undead and constructs and don't have access to the stuff that lets crits work on them, weapon damage is everything and both threat range and crit multiplier are worthless.

It all really depends on what you expect to be fighting and what you want to specialize in.

Matthew
2007-09-10, 10:10 AM
Ugh...

I know, that only in D&D, but now we are just arguing about names.

D&D falchion isn't medieval falchion, it's some two handed scimitar with major part of mass concetrated near the end. (Look at the PHB illustration).

I don't know if such strange things indeed existed, but they'r rooted in popular culture, (RH: prince of thieves....) and I suppose that eastern guys also had some two handed swords.

If you want medieval falchion in D&D use scimitar or even longsword stats and tell everyone how it looks and cuts.

I just didn't know why somebody would want to make one certain two handed weapon one handed...

Eastern guys? Talk about generalisation... Yeah, I think there is some sort of special far eastern sword that is two handed; I also heard it can cut through a tank...

Seriously, though, this is a strange sort of argument. On the one hand you claim that the D&D Falchion is a directly represented by its PHB illustration and on the other suggest that you use Long Sword or Scimitar stats to represent a Medieval Falchion. For what its worth, I agree with you and what you say in your earlier post, but it has nothing to do with the illustrations. As you rightly earlier recognised it is a matter of game balance.

2D4/18-20 is slightly too strong to allow as a One Handed Martial Weapon. You could possibly get away with it as a One Handed Exotic Weapon, as with the Great Scimitar.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 10:14 AM
No argument about number 1), but shouldn't crit range rank higher than crit multiplier? With the high crit multiplier weapons, there's a very high chance of overkilling your target, particularly if your damage is good already. If you're using something like a scythe, it's practically guaranteed that when you finally crit a good part of the damage is going to be wasted.

- Saph

Probably, but it's always better to inflict even 40 damage too much, than 1 too few.

Dausuul
2007-09-10, 10:25 AM
Probably, but it's always better to inflict even 40 damage too much, than 1 too few.

But it's even better if you can take 20 points of that excess 40 and dump it on another enemy.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 10:36 AM
Eastern guys? Talk about generalisation... Yeah, I think there is some sort of special far eastern sword that is two handed; I also heard it can cut through a tank...

Seriously, though, this is a strange sort of argument. On the one hand you claim that the D&D Falchion is a directly represented by its PHB illustration and on the other suggest that you use Long Sword or Scimitar stats to represent a Medieval Falchion. For what its worth, I agree with you and what you say in your earlier post, but it has nothing to do with the illustrations. As you rightly earlier recognised it is a matter of game balance.



And now I totally don't get your post...

I said I'm not good in eastern weapon, and I don't know if Persians/Saracens/whoever had some two handed scimitar.

Anyway, what D&D falchion is - it is some two handed scimitar (no matter if something like that ever existed, or if it has just as much sense as Scythe).

And has absolutely nothing to do with Medieval falchion. So I just said that somebody who want medieval falchion in D&D should probably use scimitar stats. That's all.

P.S Please don't compare me to the katana fanboys. It's little offending, cause those guys are just plague of historical/wherever where you are talking about weapons forums.

Matthew
2007-09-10, 10:53 AM
And now I totally don't get your post...

Apparently.


I said I'm not good in eastern weapon, and I don't know if Persians/Saracens/whoever had some two handed scimitar.

No, you said, 'eastern guys', which is so general as to be useless. You get straight swords in the east and you get them in the west. You get curved swords in the east and you get them in the west.


Anyway, what D&D falchion is - it is some two handed scimitar (no matter if something like that ever existed, or if it has just as much sense as Scythe).

And has absolutely nothing to do with Medieval falchion. So I just said that somebody who want medieval falchion in D&D should probably use scimitar stats. That's all.

And, as I said, I agree with you, but I don't think it is wise to point to the illustrations of weapnry in the PHB and draw any conclusions about what a D&D Falchion *is* from them, just what it *could* be.


P.S Please don't compare me to the katana fanboys. It's little offending, cause those guys are just plague of historical/wherever where you are talking about weapons forums.

I'm not comparing you to Katana Fan Boys, but I am pointing out that 'eastern guys' do have Two Handed Single Edged Curved Swords. However, these are mechanically equated with the D&D Bastard Sword.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 11:04 AM
Apparently.

No, you said, 'eastern guys', which is so general as to be useless. You get straight swords in the east and you get them in the west. You get curved swords in the east and you get them in the west.



OK, that is right, but while I apparently were generalizing too much, I didn't said anything about "no straight weapon in the east". Beacuse I know that they had many straight swords.

I said about two handed swords in the east, beacuse I never heard of actual TH sword in the east (comics don't count), besides Japan.

And by "east" I indeed meant Middle East guys, cause their are usually connected with scimitars.

Draz74
2007-09-10, 11:11 AM
I am pointing out that 'eastern guys' do have Two Handed Single Edged Curved Swords. However, these are mechanically equated with the D&D Bastard Sword.

Bastard sword only works with swords that are light enough that they can be used one-handed, such as katanas.

Heavy two-handed single-edged curved swords did also exist, both in the west and the east. If you google the "dha," (an Indian version), you'll probably be able to find some good pictures.

IMHO these weapons are best represented in 3E D&D by Falchions.

skywalker
2007-09-10, 12:13 PM
Falchions were single-edged swords which were primarily used for chopping(which is somewhat different from slashing, which is what a scimitar is used for, it's scary to think about chopping with some scimitars). Whether or not they were two handed is hard to tell because there aren't very many of them left from their actual period of use(probably because they were a cheap commoner's weapon. This is the only gripe I have with falchions, that they're expensive as hell, and that a first level orc warrior with a falchion and studded leather is damned close to his starting gold in spending.). The few examples that are around are one-handed, but this doesn't mean the vast majority were.

Bastard swords and katanas are very mechanically similar, however, it is my personal opinion that the D&D longsword equates to what is called on wikipedia an "arming sword," or possibly a short bastard sword(because you CAN apply your second hand), the bastard sword refers to a longer bastard sword or a shorter longsword, and the great sword refers to a longer longsword or short-ish greatsword(IE Claymores). From what I can tell(going somewhat by the PHB illustrations but mainly by mechanics) there is nothing in D&D to represent the large great swords(bidenhanders, etc.) of the late middle ages, the weapon that comes closest is the mercurial great sword.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-10, 12:32 PM
From what I can tell(going somewhat by the PHB illustrations but mainly by mechanics) there is nothing in D&D to represent the large great swords(bidenhanders, etc.) of the late middle ages, the weapon that comes closest is the mercurial great sword.

I would think the "Fullblade" from Sword and Fist is probably the closest you would get, seeing as it's essentially an "Ogre's Bastard Sword".

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-09-10, 01:02 PM
I like falchions because they're cool. The damage output isn't that far below greatswords, so despite not being mathematically inferior to the greatsword, it's still a good choice if you just think they're neat and are up for some roleplaying.

skywalker
2007-09-10, 01:07 PM
I would think the "Fullblade" from Sword and Fist is probably the closest you would get, seeing as it's essentially an "Ogre's Bastard Sword".

With the exception of the A&EG and the BoVD, I'm exclusively 3.5. I never played 3.0, and nobody I play with allows it in their games(I'm just explaining that I'm not prejudiced against it, I've just never gotten the opportunity to play it).

Matthew
2007-09-10, 01:33 PM
OK, that is right, but while I apparently were generalizing too much, I didn't said anything about "no straight weapon in the east". Beacuse I know that they had many straight swords.

Yeah, I wasn't meaning to indicate that you did. The point I was making was just that it's pointless to look at D&D Swords and then try to equate them with real life cultures or analogues. All the Falchion represents in the PHB is a curved single edged sword that has to be used in two hands. We know that such swords existed and that's all that needs to be said.


And by "east" I indeed meant Middle East guys, cause their are usually connected with scimitars.

Which is a good illustration of why its so dangerous to look at D&D weaponry, equate it to real life weaponry and generalise it as coming from one specific region. The 'scimitar' belongs to a very large family of swords that stretch right across Asia, perhaps originating amongst the Steppe Tribes in the form that it appears in the Middle East, perhaps not. The D&D Scimitar is just a catch all term for Single Handed Single Edged Sword.


I said about two handed swords in the east, beacuse I never heard of actual TH sword in the east (comics don't count), besides Japan.

Well, as Draz points out, it wasn't just Japan that made use of Two Handed Single Edged Swords. That said, I am not familiar with any historical examples of Two Handed Single Edged Curved Swords from the Middle East (which is not to say they didn't exist). Since we know that Two Handed Single Edged Curved Swords existed in the west (such as the Krieg Messer (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm)) and we know that they existed in the Far East, I don't really see why we should worry if they existed or didn't exist in the Near East.

People worry far too much about the nomenclature of D&D Weapons. I really wish that they had used something more generic than Kukri, Scimitar and Falchion.


Bastard sword only works with swords that are light enough that they can be used one-handed, such as katanas.

The Katana is a pretty difficult weapon to use in one hand, by all accounts. However, since the 8 lb D&D Dwarven War Axe can be used in one hand, I see no reason why the 8 lb D&D Falchion could not also be, if we go strictly by weight as a requirement for One Handed use.


Heavy two-handed single-edged curved swords did also exist, both in the west and the east. If you google the "dha," (an Indian version), you'll probably be able to find some good pictures.

IMHO these weapons are best represented in 3E D&D by Falchions.

Yeah, I could go with that. The Dha seems quite interesting, though it appears to be South East Asian, rather than Indian.


Falchions were single-edged swords which were primarily used for chopping(which is somewhat different from slashing, which is what a scimitar is used for, it's scary to think about chopping with some scimitars).

Are you sure about this? What's your source? As far as I am aware, the whole point in a curved sword is to increase the power of the chop.


Whether or not they were two handed is hard to tell because there aren't very many of them left from their actual period of use(probably because they were a cheap commoner's weapon.

Well, that depended on the weapon. I don't think categorising them as the weapons of 'commoners' is accurate. If I recall correctly, in the Middle English Richard Coeur de Lyon, Richard makes use of a Falchion (whatever might be meant by that). Cheap Falchions were the weapons of commoners, just like cheap anything.


This is the only gripe I have with falchions, that they're expensive as hell, and that a first level orc warrior with a falchion and studded leather is damned close to his starting gold in spending.).

Yeah, I agree. However, the D&D economy is borked to begin with, so it's no real surprise.


The few examples that are around are one-handed, but this doesn't mean the vast majority were.

Very true. Certainly there were later period Two Handed Swords of similar design.


Bastard swords and katanas are very mechanically similar

As much as any other type of sword, perhaps. I think you mean because they they are primarily used in two hands?


however, it is my personal opinion that the D&D longsword equates to what is called on wikipedia an "arming sword," or possibly a short bastard sword(because you CAN apply your second hand), the bastard sword refers to a longer bastard sword or a shorter longsword, and the great sword refers to a longer longsword or short-ish greatsword(IE Claymores).

I think most people would agree with that first part. However, Arming Swords could be used in two hands, as can be seen in contemporary illustrations and (I believe) is occasionally described in Viking Saga.
Actual Sword Nomenclature is a minefield. There is no universally accepted methodology. There's a good ARMA Article on the subject: Sword Forms (http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm#Medieval%20&%20Renaissance%20Sword%20Forms%20and%20Companion%2 0Implements).


From what I can tell(going somewhat by the PHB illustrations but mainly by mechanics) there is nothing in D&D to represent the large great swords(bidenhanders, etc.) of the late middle ages, the weapon that comes closest is the mercurial great sword.

I would say from the illustrations that the Great Sword is supposed to be that. In the most gerneral possible sense, I would say that the Arming Sword was represented by the D&D Long Sword, the Long Sword by the D&D Bastard Sword and the true Two Handed Sword by the D&D Great Sword.


With the exception of the A&EG and the BoVD, I'm exclusively 3.5. I never played 3.0, and nobody I play with allows it in their games(I'm just explaining that I'm not prejudiced against it, I've just never gotten the opportunity to play it).

I think that the Full Blade is in the A&EG, isn't it?

Person_Man
2007-09-10, 01:37 PM
No argument about number 1), but shouldn't crit range rank higher than crit multiplier? With the high crit multiplier weapons, there's a very high chance of overkilling your target, particularly if your damage is good already. If you're using something like a scythe, it's practically guaranteed that when you finally crit a good part of the damage is going to be wasted.

- Saph

Well, it depends on your precise build and the types of encounters you face.


Keen Falchion

Benefits: If you use Blood in the Water, and have a high number of attacks, and have plenty of enemies, then you're likely to build up a high bonus to hit and damage rather quickly.

Problems: Lower base damage then other weapons. No reach. Some enemies are immune to crits. If you roll 15, that's a *2 crit - But if 15 isn't high enough to hit your enemy because it has a high AC, then you've wasted a potential critical.


Keen Scythe:

Benefits: If you roll a 19 or 20 and confirm, your enemy is pretty much dead almost all of the time. If you're a Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a), you can end up with a 17-20/*4 weapon, which is mathematically superior to the alternative of a 13-20/*2 weapon. If by some chance you crit but don't kill your enemy, it almost always has to make a Save vs. Massive Damage as well.

Problems: Lower base damage then other weapons. No reach. Some enemies are immune to crits. Damage that reduces your enemy beyond -10 hit points is wasted.


In almost every case that I've had a PC killed, its when a BBEG or something similar crits me, or I fail a Save against something very important. I've never been killed by mediocre enemies, because I'm smart enough to heal or Withdraw or go Invisible or something similar when my hit points get low. So I'd rather "waste" a *4 crit on a mediocre enemy, rather then "waste" a roll of a 15 on an enemy with high AC. And when I roll a 20 against a BBEG, I want him to be dead, not just slightly inconvenienced.

Having said all that, I'd just like to reiterate again that you're better off with a lance, guisarme, or greatsword.

Dullyanna
2007-09-10, 03:42 PM
@Matthew: What he meant by "Chopping" is that a (Historical) falchion relies more on its weight, like an axe, than a sharp edge or a narrow, pointy tip.

@Person_Man: I'd say you're right on the money. A high crit. range is better for mooks, while a large crit multiplier helps out against big, nasty things (Unless they're undead or made out of an inanimate material).

Matthew
2007-09-10, 03:55 PM
@Matthew: What he meant by "Chopping" is that a (Historical) falchion relies more on its weight, like an axe, than a sharp edge or a narrow, pointy tip.

I can't quite see the what is meant by slashing and chopping in this context. Is there a technical distinction?

If slashing is just a synonym for cutting, then I would disagree. If we are just talking some variation on chopping, then I would be interested in clarification.

Dullyanna
2007-09-10, 04:24 PM
I can't quite see the what is meant by slashing and chopping in this context. Is there a technical distinction?

If slashing is just a synonym for cutting, then I would disagree. If we are just talking some variation on chopping, then I would be interested in clarification.

Yeah, one of the definitions for chopping is "To make heavy, cutting strokes." I can see how that's a bit iffy now, considering slash and chop are basically synonyms.

UserClone
2007-09-10, 04:31 PM
Try telling a 4-star chef that cutting and chopping are the same thing.:smallwink:

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-10, 11:06 PM
Slashing generally relies more on a long blade with a narrow profile, like most swords. Chopping relies more on a wedge-blade, with much of the weight at the opposite end of the cutting surface, like most axes. With a slash, you tear a wound along the blade, typically towards the tip. With a chop, you rely on the impact to send it straight in, and the wedge to spread the flesh apart around the wound.

Strictly speaking, D&D's P/S/B system of damage types doesn't really work with some weapons. An Axe is not just slashing, it can also very well break bones from sheer weight, and thus do bludgeoning. However, due to the prevalence of Plate, it's generally much harder for an axe to go through armour than a mace(but still slightly easier than with a sword). Note that we're talking big honking flat sheets of metal, not the chain at the joints. This is not really represented in 3.x, but was tabulated back in AD&D.

Dhavaer
2007-09-11, 12:01 AM
The math from the thread I talked about before went like this:

It assumed a creature that would be hit on an 11, so, 50:50 chance to hit or miss. Out of forty attacks, twenty would be successful. The falchion would get six crits, three confirmed, the greatsword would get four crits, two confirmed. Thus:

23x5 = Falchion does 115 damage
22x7 = Greatsword does 154 damage.

The falchion wielder needs to do 39 bonus damage to equal the greatsword wielder.

If the weapons were keen, each weapon would get twice as many confirmed crits.

26x5 = Falchion does 130 damage.
24x7 = Greatsword does 168 damage.

The falchion wielder needs to do 38 damage to equal the greatsword wielder.

The number change depending on how difficult the enemy is to hit; if the chance goes up, the greatsword gets better, if the chance goes down, the falchion does better until you reach the point when you need a 19 or better (17 or better with keen) to hit, when the greatsword picks up again.

Chronos
2007-09-11, 10:08 AM
If the weapons were keen, each weapon would get twice as many confirmed crits.

26x5 = Falchion does 130 damage.
24x7 = Greatsword does 168 damage.

The falchion wielder needs to do 38 damage to equal the greatsword wielder.That's 38 damage total. But that's spread out over multiple hits/crits.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-11, 10:29 AM
There are certain hit chance ranges where you're better off just going for maximum base damage. But there are other ranges where you're only going to hit with a critical anyway. So that has a certain effect.

Also your damage bonus has an effect. I don't have any statistical backing, but my gut instinct says that when your damage bonus is 10 times the basic damage difference, a higher threat range becomes more desirable.

Iku Rex
2007-09-11, 11:12 AM
The math from the thread I talked about before went like this:

It assumed a creature that would be hit on an 11, so, 50:50 chance to hit or miss. Out of forty attacks, twenty would be successful. The falchion would get six crits, three confirmed, the greatsword would get four crits, two confirmed. Thus:

23x5 = Falchion does 115 damage
22x7 = Greatsword does 154 damage.

The falchion wielder needs to do 39 bonus damage to equal the greatsword wielder.Correct.

23x(5+39) = 1012
22x(7+39) = 1012



If the weapons were keen, each weapon would get twice as many confirmed crits.

26x5 = Falchion does 130 damage.
24x7 = Greatsword does 168 damage.

The falchion wielder needs to do 38 damage to equal the greatsword wielder.Nope.

26x(5+19) = 624
24x(7+19) = 624

The falchion wielder needs +19 to equal the greatsword. (26x24 = 24x26)


The number change depending on how difficult the enemy is to hit; if the chance goes up, the greatsword gets better, if the chance goes down, the falchion does better until you reach the point when you need a 19 or better (17 or better with keen) to hit, when the greatsword picks up again.Like I said earlier, the numbers remain the same unless a crit threat isn't always a hit. Other than that AC and attack bonus doesn't matter.

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 12:05 PM
There are certain hit chance ranges where you're better off just going for maximum base damage. But there are other ranges where you're only going to hit with a critical anyway. So that has a certain effect.

Huh?

There is no range where you're only going to hit with a critical. Remember--you have to confirm your crits. If you need a natural 20 to hit, then you need two natural 20s to crit, one on the initial attack roll and one on the confirmation roll.

The chance of any given hit being a crit is constant across all ACs and attack bonuses, except when the number you need to threaten a crit is lower than the number you need to hit the target (e.g., your crit range is 17-20 but you need an 18 to hit).


Also your damage bonus has an effect. I don't have any statistical backing, but my gut instinct says that when your damage bonus is 10 times the basic damage difference, a higher threat range becomes more desirable.

Gut instinct...? These aren't very hard numbers to crunch. Gut instinct is not necessary.