Cure spells fix help

[mesc]

Do you have any suggestions on how to make cure spells more useful in battle until heal comes in?

[Kelb_Panthera]

They -are- useful in battle. There's just a lot of stuff that's more useful and people are prone to hyperbole. If whoever is on the front-line is getting beaten like an egg then popping off a few cures of the highest level you have can be the difference between him dropping or not.

If you spec as a healing specialist it just gets better.

[Venger]

use the vigor line instead.

[mesc]

The only healer in the party is a druid, and so i was planning to improve the cure line and not vigor since they lack ability to take a lot of hits and need healing immediately.

[Venger]

The only healer in the party is a druid, and so i was planning to improve the cure line and not vigor since they lack ability to take a lot of hits and need healing immediately.

Druids can also cast the vigor line. If you don't like it for whatever reason, cast goodberry a bunch during downtime and your party members can eat those for in-combat healing

[eggynack]

The only healer in the party is a druid, and so i was planning to improve the cure line and not vigor since they lack ability to take a lot of hits and need healing immediately.
Not really sure how that works. Druids have a d8, the ability to invest heavily in constitution, a friendly meat sack that can stand in front of them, and both wild shape forms and spells to improve AC. And that's just standard and mundane defenses. Can't really see why druids would be bad at taking hits. If the issue is that your druid is taking too much damage, my advice would be to use the plethora of ways to reduce incoming damage rather than healing damage that's already occurred. Some methods include being where stabbing is not, various anti-archery mechanisms (usually in the form of wind spells, though friendly fire also works), tons of immunities, and, of course, just killing or stopping enemies before they can deal the damage.

[Arael666]

The main problem I see with cure spells is the dice rolled, mainly the variation 1-8, if we're talking about cure critical wouns we have a 4-32 variation, thats a LOT.

I know people will say it averages to 18, but we're talking about combat here, we do not have space for the rolls to "average out", we get one or two castings and either we save the day or we hardly matter.

That being said, my sugestion is to change the dice depending on how "better" you want the average roll to be, you could go 2d4, 1d6+2, 1d4+4. And please don't forget to add the caster level after that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not really sure how that works. Druids have a d8, the ability to invest heavily in constitution, a friendly meat sack that can stand in front of them, and both wild shape forms and spells to improve AC. And that's just standard and mundane defenses. Can't really see why druids would be bad at taking hits. If the issue is that your druid is taking too much damage, my advice would be to use the plethora of ways to reduce incoming damage rather than healing damage that's already occurred. Some methods include being where stabbing is not, various anti-archery mechanisms (usually in the form of wind spells, though friendly fire also works), tons of immunities, and, of course, just killing or stopping enemies before they can deal the damage.

Pretty sure the "they" he's referring to is the rest of his party.

@OP

How much are you willing to invest here? Gold, feats, class levels? At minimum you should know that SNAIV can be used to produce a unicorn that can pop off 3 CLW and a CMW for one spell slot while you do something more important -or- cast your own healing spells.

[eggynack]

Pretty sure the "they" he's referring to is the rest of his party.
I dunno why the fact the healer is a druid would be relevant if that's the case.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I dunno why the fact the healer is a druid would be relevant if that's the case.

It's not but cure over vigor is if that's the case.

[Pleh]

Druids can also cast the vigor line. If you don't like it for whatever reason, cast goodberry a bunch during downtime and your party members can eat those for in-combat healing

Goodberry heals 1 point at a time and can only heal up to 8 points in any 24hr period

[mesc]

The party composition is a swashbuckler rogue, a rogue swordsage, a dragonfire adept who acts as the main tank, and a druid. Essentially there are 3 secondary tanks and no true character that can act as a reliable tank, with the dragonfire adept as the closest. So they need a large amount healing, not a slow or low amount of healing like vigor or good berry works in battle for them.

Also a Homebrew suggestion on fixing cure spells will work.

[Goaty14]

The party composition is a swashbuckler rogue, a rogue swordsage, a dragonfire adept who acts as the main tank, and a druid. Essentially there are 3 secondary tanks and no true character that can act as a reliable tank, with the dragonfire adept as the closest. So they need a large amount healing, not a slow or low amount of healing like vigor or good berry works in battle for them.

The druid should be the tank, as all of the advice that eggynack pointed out. If you're in lower levels, then the Animal Companion can die and be called back all of the time, and at levels 6+, the druid could wildshape into a beefy form and play like a gish.

[mesc]

The druid should be the tank, as all of the advice that eggynack pointed out. If you're in lower levels, then the Animal Companion can die and be called back all of the time, and at levels 6+, the druid could wildshape into a beefy form and play like a gish.

The Druid does act as a tank, but the others (including him) also take a decent amount of damage and require healing, but cure spells are a bit low.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Druid does act as a tank, but the others (including him) also take a decent amount of damage and require healing, but cure spells are a bit low.

Dude? Spontaneous summon nature's ally. Meat-walls are your bread-and-butter.

[mesc]

Would you think it would be fine to make
Cure light: 1d8 +cl
Cure moderate: 3d6 +cl
Cure serious: 5d6 +cl
Critical: 7d6 +cl

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would you think it would be fine to make
Cure light: 1d8 +cl
Cure moderate: 3d6 +cl
Cure serious: 5d6 +cl
Critical: 7d6 +cl

It's not a huge increase so I suppose it wouldn't be much of a problem. Same CL caps?

[Malroth]

Summon Natures Ally + cloudy conjuration + greenbound summoning. Nothing that takes damage should be around for that damage to matter.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wands of cure light wounds and lesser vigor for after battle healing, of course.

If you want 1st party support and don't mind Pathfinder mixed with 3e, get yourself some aurorum spell storing dye arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/), and load them up with cure spells during your downtime. After they're fired, make sure to pick up the pieces and reassemble them after.

If you want some houserules for in-combat healing, how about making cure spells Move actions to cast, up to Close range? It'd eat up spell slots, but you could could cast two per round on your allies within 25' + 5' per 2 levels so targeting them would be much easier. A +1 or so level adjustment metamagic feat to turn them into Immediate actions to mitigate damage as it's being dealt, so even if a blow would kill or incapacitate an ally, casting the spell would prevent the damage as though it hadn't happened (though it wouldn't prevent most rider effects, like poison, etc, unless said effects rely on KOing one's foe).

[Fizban]

Do you have any suggestions on how to make cure spells more useful in battle until heal comes in?
Run a proper healing build with Augment Healing, Imbued Healing [Healing]*, and something to let you use them at range, from within a party that doesn't dump their defenses, in a game that's not rocket tag (this includes not char-opping/cherry-picking the monsters for maximum power). Make use of Close Wounds (SpC) and Insignia of Healing (Races of Destiny) for immediate and mass healing at reasonable levels, with all the benefits of augment and imbue. An augmented imbued insignia of healing is 1d8+11+5= 20 points at minimum level, or 1d8+16+10= 30 at 10th, keeping up with the damage of a fireball well enough before considering successful saves or energy resistance. Yeah a bunch of that is temporary, which means you don't even care about losing it.

You also need to use the appropriate buffs like any other cleric. Healing is no substitute for having Resist Energy on the whole party vs energy monsters, or Freedom of Movement on the bait frontline against big grabby swallowy things.

*PHB2 has a similar ability for the Favored Soul, but it doesn't get the massive free scaling that IH[H] does for low level spells, and you have to be a Favored Soul. Initiate of Ilmater lets you overheal, so it's more useful if you're really ubermaxing on the heal value, which takes a lot more feats.

[Elkad]

My current table I've doubled all dice on Conjuration (Healing) spells.

It's fine. Maybe a tiny bit too much. And of course it makes lesser vigor look bad, since that only heals 1 extra hp.


My scratchpad for the next campaign (which we probably won't start for another 2 years) splits the difference and says "upgrade die 2 sizes", so most Cure spells will be D12s.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is also a druid ACF that lets you trade your spontaneous SNA for a burst of fast healing for you and all party members. It isn't bad to spend a 1st level spell and heal 3 HP in an AOE.

[heavyfuel]

All cure spells are automatically maximized.

Cure Serious Wounds for 3d8+5? Nope. Straight up 29. Wand of Cure Light wounds heals you for 9hp, still 2 less than Vigor, but's an immediate effect rather than over 11 rounds, so both get some usage. Mass Cure Light Wounds heals each character for 17 damage at the level you get it, which still underwhelming for a 5th level spell.

It really doesn't break the game, and it helps meatshield characters who already need all the help they can get.

[zlefin]

Do you have any suggestions on how to make cure spells more useful in battle until heal comes in?

are you the dm?
I just ask because there's a difference between a dm looking for specific actionable suggestions to fit in; and a mroe generalized discussion about the topic.

iirc the spheres of power stuff managed to make in-combat healing be decent; which could serve as a bit of a guidepost.

[heavyfuel]

are you the dm?
I just ask because there's a difference between a dm looking for specific actionable suggestions to fit in; and a mroe generalized discussion about the topic.

Very good point. My post was with OP as the DM in mind, but if OP's a player, Mastery of Day and Night is pretty good. You have Maximize Spell as a prereq, but as far as metamagic feats as a prereq go you could do a lot worse.

[Hua]

Depending on what you are fighting, a Barkskin is a lot better choice than a cure. If it prevents 2 hits in the hours it is active, you are ahead of the game.
Same can be said for resist energy if against casters or elemental attacks.
The squishy other players need to invest in armor and other defenses, not just in hitting harder.

I hate to break it to you, but this version of the game has been out for 15 years. If curing was as badly messed up as you are saying, we all would have adjusted it. It sounds like either the players are not being defensive enough or the DM is consistently over matching you. OTOH, if it is just challenging but people are not dying, the DM is probably matching difficulty just fine. No cure spells OUT of combat should be cast, unless under a time pressure. Wands, potions, scrolls, and magic items are for those times.


If you absolutely must increase curing spells, it sounds like the variation is the problem. Roll a 2 at a bad point and someone goes down. Simplest, and easiest to remember is to make all 1, 2, or 3 on the die count as 3. It will flatten the curve but not increase the top end curing.

[Fizban]

Preventitively buffing to reduce damage is superior, but there is also the case for when people don't want to waste the spells. You might prevent some hits from landing with Barkskin (an odd choice of default example, the druid spell, when druids also have delayed cures) or Shield of Faith, but your foes could also roll garbage, get critted to death, or surrender, followed by having no more combats before the buffs wear off, leaving those spell slots completely wasted. Waiting until damage is incurred and then removing a concrete amount of damage lets you be sure that you got exactly that amount of worth out of your spell.

See a fight coming, buff up, guaranteed worth. Have a fight sprung on you, maybe lose initiative, buff may be worth less than a cure by the end, maybe better to wait and let things play out.

[King of Nowhere]

if you want better reliability, you could swap 1d8 for 2d4. yoou gain half a point on average, which is meaningless, but the important part is that you get a much narrower curve.
But in general, a druid isn't that great at healing. Certainly worse than a cleric. It's fine, because the druid excels at other stuff. There is also a feat that increases the healed amount by 2 per spell level that is very useful for healers, especially when you hit the mass cure wounds (only clerics, I think?).
Still, healing spells are very useful in combat if someone is taking a beating. maybe not at the crazy high op levels where every martial is an ubercharger that oneshots everything and every caster uses whatever tricks to just win. In this case you don't get much use for healing, but most tabletop game is not like that.

[Zaq]

Hmm. If you're intentionally houseruling to buff Cure spells, you could take a leaf from 4e's book and say that all Cure spells are automatically swift actions rather than standard actions. That way you don't have to choose between keeping your buddy alive and actually helping to bring the fight to a close sooner. Yes, it's a big jump in action economy and therefore a big jump in power, but if your goal is to make the spells more useful, that's a big way to do it.

If your resident Cleric/Druid is already going full 'zilla, then you might say that they're only automatically swift actions when cast on an ally other than the caster, but of course, if you've already got a 'zilla on your hands, you probably don't need houserules to buff them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cast (or pay for a casting of) planar binding and negotiate for the help of a friendly outsider to otherwise stay out of danger but cast healing spells for your party. Or buy the services of a healer with a healing unicorn mount and the Draconic Vigor feat. Per-day henchman services are pretty cheap, after all.

[Vaern]

D&D Online basically forces high rolls from spells by halving the die size and adding half as a bonus. So instead of, say, Cure Serious Wounds healing for 3d8+caster level, it would instead heal for 3d4+12+caster level. This is a possible solution that I think is exactly halfway between King of Nowhere's suggestion of changing 1d8 to 2d4 and heavyfuel's suggestoin to automatically maximizing cure spells.

As for the Augment Healing feat, I'd personally change it so that, rather than healing and extra +2 per spell level, it instead grants an extra +1 HP per caster level (up to the maximum caster level allowed by the spell). It won't have a major impact early on, but the bonus grows as the character grows which will help the lower-tier Cure spells remain a bit more relevant for a bit longer.

[Zancloufer]

I had a Cure X Wounds fix I made a while ago. Pretty much I made it so the number of dice rolled increased with CL. Went like:

Cure Minor Wounds: Now heals 1d4 damage per 2 caster levels (Max 5d4). (5-20 at max CL, average 8)
Cure Light Wounds: Now heals 1d8 damage per 2 caster levels (Max 5d8). (5-40 at max CL, average 20)
Cure Moderate Wounds: Now heals 1d8+2 damage per 2 caster levels (Max 5d8+20). (25-60 at max CL, average 40)
Cure Serious Wounds: Now heals 2d8+2 damage per 2 caster levels (Max 10d8+20). (30-100 at max CL, average 60)
Cure Critical Wounds: Now heals 3d8+2 damage per 2 caster level (Max 15d8+20). (35-140 at max CL, average 80)

Still was probably less HP healed than a full attack to do at that level but at least it was appreciable. Especially since CCW went from a 22-52 HP heal (36 average) to what it is now. 30-40 HP at level 20 is a joke tbh.

[Eldariel]

if you want better reliability, you could swap 1d8 for 2d4. yoou gain half a point on average, which is meaningless, but the important part is that you get a much narrower curve.
But in general, a druid isn't that great at healing. Certainly worse than a cleric. It's fine, because the druid excels at other stuff. There is also a feat that increases the healed amount by 2 per spell level that is very useful for healers, especially when you hit the mass cure wounds (only clerics, I think?).
Still, healing spells are very useful in combat if someone is taking a beating. maybe not at the crazy high op levels where every martial is an ubercharger that oneshots everything and every caster uses whatever tricks to just win. In this case you don't get much use for healing, but most tabletop game is not like that.

Eh, Druid has spontaneous SNAIV for Unicorns. That's extremely competitive with any Cleric healing of equivalent level on raw numbers while also being a meatwall, Magic Circle against Evil, etc. The big loss of a Druid is not getting Restoration and Heal being one level late but aside from that, Druid healer is more than fine even in comparison to Cleric.

[ngilop]

Just bumping the base die up is a good change
EXAMPLE
Cure light wounds 1d8
Cure Moderate Wounds 3d8
Cure Serious Wounds 5d8
Cure Critical Wounds 7d8

It is not that large of a change But you combine that with the whole +2 per die healed feat and it gets a bit better.

[Ramza00]

I think if we were to redesign the cure spells they should be like the channeled spells from PHB2 with variable casting time but longer casting heals more damage, gives a buff like temp hit points, save boost, attack or ac boost, etc.

[Psyren]

You can make them a bit less swingy by splitting the dice - i.e. instead of xd8, they become xd4+(4x). For example, Cure Light Wounds goes from 1d8 to 1d4+4 before CL, while Cure Serious goes from 3d8 to 3d4+12 before CL. Basically, every 1d8 goes from being 1-8 (large variance, average rolls less likely to help) to 5-8 (smaller variance, average rolls more likely to help.) This helps to keep low rolls from screwing over a heal attempt.